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[GnomeChimpsky]

Inspired by Alexios recent necorbump of the old HOTAS thread I thought it´d be time for a new one about everyone´s favorite peripheral: the joystick!

Terms​

HOTAS- Hands on throttle and stick. In a gaming context this means a setup where you have a separate throttle and joystick which leaves a lot more room for buttons and other controls on each.
HOSAS- Hands on stick and stick. Using a joystick in each hand. Useful for games that let you move with six degrees of freedom like Star Citizen.
Rudder pedals- Controls you manipulate with your feet to move the plane's rudder (yaw axis)
Sim pit- Some enthusiasts build their own setup mounting their HOTAS, sometimes combining it with a proper seat, displays, dials etc. It can look something like this:

Or when people get carried away it looks like this:

The hardware​

Less expensive stuff generally has a lot of problems because manufacturers cheap out on components like sensors and gimbals. In recent years the industry has started using contactless sensors which are less prone to the calibration errors that used to plague joysticks of old. Unfortunately a lot of products on the market still use the old potentiometers which means that stuff like the Logitech X52 can quickly become unusable.
Recently we´ve seen the Turtle Beach Velocityone which looks really promising. It has two throttles built in but build quality remains to be seen though. It´s Xbox compatible too which is great because only very few joysticks work on consoles.



User richardus1-1 created this image a few years ago to show the pros and cons of each offering. VKB and Virpil have released several new products since then but it gives a good overview.

No money? No problem!​

That's all I've got for now. What did I miss? And what gear are you guys using? Anything to recommend or avoid?

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

What to play​

Flight sims were pretty niche up until a few years ago with the release of the new Microsoft Flight Simulator and when Star Citizen started becoming, well... a game. Note that DCS is in a bit of a league of it´s own in that it's a "study sim", meaning you will have to read guides and watch Youtube tutorials to even get engines started in any of the high-fidelity modules. That can be a lot of fun and educational in itself but it´s not a game you drop into casually when you just want to blow stuff up.

Hardcore​

Intermediate​

Star Citizen

Casual​

https://store.steampowered.com/app/895870/Project_Wingman/
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1222730/STAR_WARS_Squadrons/

Edit: looks like GAF doesn't like too many Steam links?

 

[TheDraconian]

 

[Business]

Nice thread.

I played a lot of the original IL2 Sturmovik in the early 2000's, all the expansions until Cliffs of Dover finally released into a buggy mess, Maddox games went to shit, the franchise got split with Battle of Stalingrad by a new dev...

Does anyone know if there's still a community playing Cliffs of Dover? I've been totally out of the loop but I saw in 2020 Team Fusion released an expansion so I assume the game must be kinda alive somewhere.

 

[Skifi28]

I'd show you my joystick, but I don't want to get banned just yet. Make a NSFW version of the thread and I'll be there.

 

[GeekyDad]

I remember. I was six-years old when it came out, and my Mom got the 2600 for me and my brother. That joystick sucked c*** back then, and it still sucks now. Don't get me wrong, I agree, the simplicity was fantastic. You could do plenty with just the stick and button, and the stick movement had a great tension/feel. But making it that tall was f****** ridiculous. Most people playing on a 2600 were young kids like myself, and even grown-ups found it to be ridiculously disproportionate.

I played it for years, anyway, and it obviously scarred me for life. Now, I'm on a gaming forum complaining about it over 40 years later. I'll never truly recover.

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

And jittery!
(Not that you'd notice it in the games at the time though )

 

[calistan]

I've had the VKB T-rudder pedals and the Virpil throttle, both of which are on your list, for a few years now, plus the Virpil stick below.

One hidden expense that's probably worth mentioning is the mounting brackets. I mean, you can have this heavy stuff sitting loose on your desk but it's really no good like that because it wobbles around. Tilt the stick over and the opposite side of the base will lift off the desk.

The table mounts I'm using are by Monstertech, and they're very quick to mount and release - no screws, just a pressure clamp, but they are rock solid.

The two mounts alone are more expensive than the entire Hotas set I had before this one (CH Products - still got it in the attic, I actually prefer it to Virpil for Elite Dangerous in VR).

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

Nice thread.

I played a lot of the original IL2 Sturmovik in the early 2000's, all the expansions until Cliffs of Dover finally released into a buggy mess, Maddox games went to shit, the franchise got split with Battle of Stalingrad by a new dev...

Does anyone know if there's still a community playing Cliffs of Dover? I've been totally out of the loop but I saw in 2020 Team Fusion released an expansion so I assume the game must be kinda alive somewhere.

I believe there's a small community playing online. The devs have done a lot of good work on the game. VR support is supposed to come soon I believe. Reviews on Steam are a bit misleading because most of them are from when the game was still a mess.

I've had the VKB T-rudder pedals and the Virpil throttle, both of which are on your list, for a few years now, plus the Virpil stick below.

One hidden expense that's probably worth mentioning is the mounting brackets. I mean, you can have this heavy stuff sitting loose on your desk but it's really no good like that because it wobbles around. Tilt the stick over and the opposite side of the base will lift off the desk.

The table mounts I'm using are by Monstertech, and they're very quick to mount and release - no screws, just a pressure clamp, but they are rock solid.

The two mounts alone are more expensive than the entire Hotas set I had before this one (CH Products - still got it in the attic, I actually prefer it to Virpil for Elite Dangerous in VR).

That's a good point. There's a bunch of cheaper alternatives and lots of DIY-stuff but it's probably much less sturdy.

What games do you play with this setup?

 

[calistan]

That's a good point. There's a bunch of cheaper alternatives and lots of DIY-stuff but it's probably much less sturdy.

What games do you play with this setup?

I think you can effectively make your own ghetto Monstertech-style mounts, since they're basically just aluminium bar profile and off-the-shelf clamps. But I don't have the tools to do that, and Monstertech's stuff is really nicely finished. You can opt for naked metal to save a bit of money, but I went for the black coating and it hasn't had so much as a scratch in years of daily use. Lots of dust but no scratches.

I play MS Flight Simulator on that setup. I'm not really into combat sims, I just like flying around and looking at stuff. I've also got Prepar3d, but I don't use that much since MSFS arrived. Elite Dangerous too, although I haven't played it in a couple of years due to my Oculus Rift becoming unusably glitchy.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Joystick or Flightstick thread?

 

[Topher]

Here is my setup:

Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and throttle. I mostly use it for space sim games like Elite Dangerous.

 

[calistan]

Here is my setup:

Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog and throttle. I mostly use it for space sim games like Elite Dangerous.

I can see immediately that your setup would be instantly improved by this: https://www.monster.tech/en/product/joystick-hotas-table-mount. One for the throttle, one for the stick. I know the Thrustmaster bases are pretty heavy but they're at completely the wrong height there. You need them mounted lower so you can reach them without raising your arms, with your hands at lap height. Ergonomics and all that - it's the whole point of a hotas.

 

[Topher]

I can see immediately that your setup would be instantly improved by this: https://www.monster.tech/en/product/joystick-hotas-table-mount. One for the throttle, one for the stick. I know the Thrustmaster bases are pretty heavy but they're at completely the wrong height there. You need them mounted lower so you can reach them without raising your arms, with your hands at lap height. Ergonomics and all that - it's the whole point of a hotas.

I've considered getting something like that, but I'd need a new table first. There is a support bar underneath where the clamp would go. I might invest in one of the ones that attach to your chair at some point.

 

[calistan]

I've considered getting something like that, but I'd need a new table first. There is a support bar underneath where the clamp would go. I might invest in one of the ones that attach to your chair at some point.

With that particular model you may well be able to clamp directly onto the metal support bar. Or if you needed more surface area, shim behind it with a block of wood.

The clamp head is only 2.5cm diameter, and you can move the whole thing up and down plus make micro-adjustments. I believe it clamps anything up to about 10cm thick, would probably do more if you moved the clamp further down the bar.

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

Joystick or Flightstick thread?

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

Sweet

 

[nikos]

Nice thread!

Was looking into these yesterday after seeing the new Turtle Beach unit. Doesn't seem like there are a ton of options available and it seems more about budget. I have a sim racing rig and would love to integrate a flightstick. Waiting to see how the Turtle Beach unit turns out, but its price tag has me thinking it'll be on the cheaper end.

 

[Alexios]

Hope you're not the one who reported me and got me a warning for that post, lol, jk, but that was weird, I did nothing wrong...

Anyway, as I was saying there, I have the T16000M flight stick (same as the current T16000 FCS or whatever, just green instead of orange) and still lack a throttle and use the keyboard instead with various shortcuts cos there's no good cheap one, Thrustmaster's TWCS is too pricy for what it is. The stick is still good but only if you can get it for a good price of course, it's not a premium build and has few buttons but is accurate thanks to the hall sensors for the main axis (mind potentiometers are also fine if they're industrial quality like CH Products but of course in the cheap stuff they're crap).

I like the look of that Turtle Beach compact set but wish it had a little bit more full size style throttle that could have inputs on it. Kind of like the cheap pos Speedlink Black Widow but in that premium high quality it seems to have. If it was 99 instead of 129 or whatever I'd get it though.

 

[calistan]

In the spirit of both, here's a (non flight) Xbox 360 joystick I hacked up many years ago. I fitted it with a Sanwa stick and Seimitsu buttons, which involved melting the plastic case and grinding away a piece of the metal bottom to accommodate the outsized parts. The plate where the buttons and stick attach is metal, so pretty solid. Still going strong, with an adapter for modern systems.

 

[poppabk]

I have the PXN-2119Pro Chinese HOTAS which is mainly used for FS2020 and a few combat sims.
Haven't had many problems with it other than the software situation being all fucked up, I can't remember exactly but I think it either works out of the box, or you just need the very basic drivers. It maps automatically in some games like Star Wars squadrons, but I had to map everything in Flight Sim. Never had the rumble work, but I believe that is an issue with HOTAS in general?

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

Hope you're not the one who reported me and got me a warning for that post, lol, jk, but that was weird, I did nothing wrong...

Anyway, as I was saying there, I have the T16000M flight stick (same as the current T16000 FCS or whatever, just green instead of orange) and still lack a throttle and use the keyboard instead with various shortcuts cos there's no good cheap one, Thrustmaster's TWCS is too pricy for what it is. The stick is still good but only if you can get it for a good price of course, it's not a premium build and has few buttons but is accurate thanks to the hall sensors for the main axis (mind potentiometers are also fine if they're industrial quality like CH Products but of course in the cheap stuff they're crap).

No that wasn't me. I was actually typing a response to you when it was closed lol.

I have both the T16000 and the throttle and the stick is pretty good but I'd rather have more buttons on the stick than all those useless ones on the base. I really dig the layout and feel of the throttle but it suffers from poor lubrication so it will inevitably start sticking in its track. Easily fixable with some thick grease but it's something to keep in mind.

 

[Alexios]

Yeah (most, some can be used as switches for stuff) base buttons are useless since you're supposed to keep your hand on the stick. They put them so they can pretend it's an all in one unit with its crappy little thottle lever and your off hand using these instead of the keyboard or throttle piece.

But yeah with a few more inputs on the actual stick it'd be the perfect budget stick. Now it's hard to recommend if it's going for like 70, for less than double you can go to higher tier hardware instead, I got mine around 45 iirc when it was still green and that was probably the best deal.

I still want to get the TWCS but waiting for a good deal, 80-100 is just too much. Maybe if it was a twin throttle. At that point you can get an X52 Pro instead of the TM FCS hotas bundle, which has its own issues I've read but seems to justify its cost better if they're gonna cost around the same.

Then again, that also seems to have increased in price. It's just tough for budget purchases all around. I once managed to get a CH Products set which was ace for around 200 (no pedals, I'd put rudder on the throttle's stick or something) but there was a defect, some loose fit plastic was sliding around on the face of the stick when it shouldn't, so I had to return it and the store sucked not acknowleding the issue and it took months to eventually get a refund and say fuck it to buying from abroad if it's not from the likes of Amazon. Now CH is even harder to find and more expensive usually.

I'm just using the keyboard with WASD lol, shortcuts like Shift + W for full throttle and Shift + S for full stop etc., it works alright enough, I actually enjoy MechWarrior 4 the most with this set up, even more than flight and space games, but yeah, a throttle would be great just as the stick was more fun than mouse or gamepad for such games. Hopefully someone will come out with something that hits the sweetspot, as of now budget produts seem deliberately gimped in some ways to make you go for the better stuff rather than have those rely on their premium quality and features alone.

And yes you can only have up to 10 media embeds in a post, the Steam links count as such.

 

[GnomeChimpsky]

Yeah (most, some can be used as switches for stuff) base buttons are useless since you're supposed to keep your hand on the stick. They put them so they can pretend it's an all in one unit with its crappy little thottle lever and your off hand using these instead of the keyboard or throttle piece.

But yeah with a few more inputs on the actual stick it'd be the perfect budget stick. Now it's hard to recommend if it's going for like 70, for less than double you can go to higher tier hardware instead, I got mine around 45 iirc when it was still green and that was probably the best deal.

I still want to get the TWCS but waiting for a good deal, 80-100 is just too much. Maybe if it was a twin throttle. At that point you can get an X52 Pro instead of the TM FCS hotas bundle, which has its own issues I've read but seems to justify its cost better if they're gonna cost around the same.

Then again, that also seems to have increased in price. It's just tough for budget purchases all around. I once managed to get a CH Products set which was ace for around 200 (no pedals, I'd put rudder on the throttle's stick or something) but there was a defect, some loose fit plastic was sliding around on the face of the stick when it shouldn't, so I had to return it and the store sucked not acknowleding the issue and it took months to eventually get a refund and say fuck it to buying from abroad if it's not from the likes of Amazon. Now CH is even harder to find and more expensive usually.

I'm just using the keyboard with WASD lol, shortcuts like Shift + W for full throttle and Shift + S for full stop etc., it works alright enough, I actually enjoy MechWarrior 4 the most with this set up, even more than flight and space games, but yeah, a throttle would be great just as the stick was more fun than mouse or gamepad for such games. Hopefully someone will come out with something that hits the sweetspot, as of now budget produts seem deliberately gimped in some ways to make you go for the better stuff rather than have those rely on their premium quality and features alone.

And yes you can only have up to 10 media embeds in a post, the Steam links count as such.

100 bucks is too much for what is essentially just a hunk of plastic. Everything seems overpriced now though. An Xbox controller is like $70 where I live.

I still have gotten a lot of mileage out of my TWCS. It has a lot of different knobs and switches and stuff which makes it really versatile. You have to go up to around $400 to get a standalone throttle that is better so I'll probably stick with this one until it disintegrates lol