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[Eddie-Griffin]

What you don't understand is that it doesn't matter how fast the read/

Omits stuff from quote.

I point out what was omitted

Makes new response ignoring the quote entirely moving the goal post.

I also like how more words I never used keep getting added in the continual paraphrasing of my words in each post you make. Soon you're going to claim I said that the disc drive loads key animations from the sound chip at this rate with how much misquoting is going on. Anyway, I post from a homebrew developer which has higher credibility so disagree with it if you want but I'll go with a person who dug into the hardware.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Well, first of all, FMV vidya is fundamentally flawed. The reputation was always going to be mixed.

FMV wasn't anywhere near as polarizing on PC, which also tended to use it more as part of games than just being a background or having a Dragons lair type interactive movie.

I think that's one of the big reason for the rift in reception. PC got those FMV games too, in better quality and closer to the arcade, but they also used it to complement game design. Was very popular with adventure games for example, and was a good method to "fake" good looking 3D polygonal graphics in some action and racing games if done right. Consoles weren't really doing this as much, and Sega CD in particular had a lot of questionable releases.

I mentioned Myst just to say that the market back in 1991-1994 wasn’t what people think of it today. As stupid as it seems, FMV was a much bigger selling point than scaling sprites, it just was. And it wasn’t just Sega, it was the entire market.

It didn't help that at least in the early part of the Sega CD's life no console was around that could really run those scaling games well-enough. in 1991-93 pre-Jaguar you didn't really have many options.

Willy Beamish, Rise of the Dragon, Monkey Island, Snatcher, etc. It probably should have gotten more of those.

Yeah, it needed more "game" FMV releases were FMV was part of the design instead of "movie" fmv where there's no or little interaction. But the latter are the most known releases for the add-on. There also wasn't enough upgraded MD ports. Some of the ports were actually downgrades. I think Sega had the right idea with the Sega CD but just messed up the execution.

 

[RoboFu]

FMV wasn't anywhere near as polarizing on PC, which also tended to use it more as part of games than just being a background or having a Dragons lair type interactive movie.

I think that's one of the big reason for the rift in reception. PC got those FMV games too, in better quality and closer to the arcade, but they also used it to complement game design. Was very popular with adventure games for example, and was a good method to "fake" good looking 3D polygonal graphics in some action and racing games if done right. Consoles weren't really doing this as much, and Sega CD in particular had a lot of questionable releases.



It didn't help that at least in the early part of the Sega CD's life no console was around that could really run those scaling games well-enough. in 1991-93 pre-Jaguar you didn't really have many options.



Yeah, it needed more "game" FMV releases were FMV was part of the design instead of "movie" fmv where there's no or little interaction. But the latter are the most known releases for the add-on. There also wasn't enough upgraded MD ports. Some of the ports were actually downgrades. I think Sega had the right idea with the Sega CD but just messed up the execution.

SNES could absolutely run those games easy. It was made to run games like that. Maybe need to cut down fir ram limitations but the scaling and ground would be easy.

 

[nkarafo]

Anyway, I post from a homebrew developer which has higher credibility so disagree with it if you want but I'll go with a person who dug into the hardware.

Whoever this mysterious and anecdotal "my friend works for Nintendo" person is, it looks to me like you simply misunderstand the stuff they write.

But since it's their knowledge you are sharing here and not yours, i wonder if that person could share some examples? Like 2D fighting games or Metal Slug type of 2D games that stream animation frames directly from the CD?

If they can't then how about you share some titles yourself? You specifically mentioned this:

explain the choppiness and lower frame rates for the same games on other consoles that have the same RAM as the PS1? You haven't answered that yet because you have no answer, as the only differentiator is the CD-Drive.

So you up bring up this point to defend your case, but you never posted which games these are. Mind sharing the titles you talk about? I mean you ask me to explain the choppiness of some, apparently, specific games here. So, which are they and what are the consoles you are comparing?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Apparently people working with Carmack are at Nintendo now. Learned something new.

SNES could absolutely run those games easy. It was made to run games like that.

Later Sega scaler games? Those will require more than mode 7 to get even part way to the arcade. I'm not even sure SNES could do Soulstar without concessions.

 

[Drell]

Omits stuff from quote.

You seem stubborn too, so I'll try to explain what he says by using your affirmation from a while back, that he (from what you said) dodged.

When we have games with the same ram as the PS1, or not needing more ram than what they have over the PS1, and they run choppy or/and at a low frame rate the ONLY difference is the disc drive, not the ram. I've already said this, and you have skipped over this as well since there's no counter to that fact, so what can I do. I tried.

Let's begin by reviewing how a game (specifically a 2D game in that case) works on a CD base console. Let's take a fighting game as an example. So when the player chose his character, a loading screen appears. During this time, the console copies the content needed for the fight into the RAM, because a CD drive is too slow to load that in real time. Even today's high speed drives would be too slow because it's mechanic in nature while a cartridge is purely about electricity. That means all the sprites for the fighters, the background static elements, all the sprites of animated objects in the background as well as some other things like the music and things we don't see but are useful for the game to be playable. Note that 3D consoles, except for some exceptions like the DS and the Saturn can only draw polygons. That means a 2D game built for these machines have to use flat quads with texture on top of them being the sprite itself (at the end of the day it's just a bitmap).

When all of this is done, the CD STOPS to spin and the fight starts. the CD drive don't need to read anything on it anymore. EVERYTHING is on the RAM. Sure there are some exception. For example if your game is using redbook audio, the CD will continue to spin but the drive will be busy reading the music so it CAN'T LOAD ANYTHING. Another example could be real time/fmv hybrid game such as sylpheed. It has to load your ship, the ennemies, what happens in the level, the music etc... And then when you play the level, the FMV is being streamed on the background. So again, the CD is spinning because it has to stream the FMV so it can't read anything else than that becasue a physical drive only has one laser.

So to counter your affirmation, "when we have games with the same ram as the PS1, or not needing more ram than what they have over the PS1, and they run choppy or/and at a low frame rate the ONLY difference is the disc drive, not the ram" what you say is simply impossible because the game doesn't use the drive during the gameplay except if it has something to stream or maybe in a particular case like mortal kombat, it has to load the fighters one by one against shang tsung. But that's a corner case and they had to do this because the Megadrive (and MegaCD ram too) couldn't hold all of this at once. So they chose to use this ugly solution of freezing the game to swap the opponent fighter in the RAM because they couldn't do anything else except cut shang tsung from this version. To get even further in this specific corner case: loading a whole fighter is ugly but it still is somewhate playable. Immagine now that EVERY anymation of a fighting had to be loaded from a CD. It would be freezing the whole time and unplayable. You simply don't load frames of animation (even at 30 FPS) in a game where you can't predict what the player is going to do. It's possible with a movie because everything is already planned, the whole FMV can't change what it is every frames.
So to conclude, if a game run on two exactly identical architectures and the games is choppy on one and not on the other, the only person you can blame is the the programmer of the choppy version who couldn't make it run as well as the one who made the smooth version.

ALSO, you keep talking about your credible homebrew developper, could you give us link instead of accusing others to dodge what you say?
Thanks in advance.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

So to counter your affirmation, "when we have games with the same ram as the PS1, or not needing more ram than what they have over the PS1, and they run choppy or/and at a low frame rate the ONLY difference is the disc drive, not the ram" what you say is simply impossible

This isn't an answer to that question.

If two or three consoles that have the same ram as the PS1, have processors faster than what's needed to run those 2D games and then some, why is it across the same games the PS1 and one other may run the games at 60fps, and the other two are running ports of the same games at 30, and it's not multi dev incompetence with the ports?

Some consoles are choppy in animations and/or run a 30fps, the others are 60fps and run smooth, the processors are not the issue, the RAM is the same, some consoles are actually easier to develop for than the PS1 even or about the same, so what is the differentiator? One of those consoles btw, has sprite hardware too, where as the rest including the PS1 don't.

What's the differentiator?

You quoted (out of context) the issue, but as you continued you completely skipped over answering the qu6estion you quoted. The Disc drive speed and technology of the drives are the only difference between the platforms for running even non-complex 2D games differently than each other. There is not other explanation that exists. '

I think the issue is simply that you are reading what I am saying as "EVERYTHING ON SCREEN" is streaming to CD, when it's just that the CD drive is a major supporting mechanism combined with other factors in helping with 2D games. When you realize that and not that I'm saying everything is being drawn from the disc, or some of the other things that were misquoted by others previously which may have helped cause that confusion, then things make a lot more sense.

Hopefully that clarifies things.

 

[nkarafo]

Apparently Carmack is a "homebrew developer" now. Learned something new.

If two or three consoles that have the same ram as the PS1, have processors faster than what's needed to run those 2D games and then some, why is it across the same games the PS1 and one other may run the games at 60fps, and the other two are running ports of the same games at 30, and it's not multi dev incompetence with the ports?

Some consoles are choppy in animations and/or run a 30fps, the others are 60fps and run smooth, the processors are not the issue, the RAM is the same, some consoles are actually easier to develop for than the PS1 even or about the same, so what is the differentiator? One of those consoles btw, has sprite hardware too, where as the rest including the PS1 don't.

You continue to not giving any examples of specific ports or consoles. Is this a fantasy scenario?

 

[Drell]

This isn't an answer to that question.

You only quoted the end and obviously didn't read the whole explaination I gave you about why the drive is not used at all during the gameplay in most cases. I gave you real examples and you gave me nothing. That confirm gthe idea of you I had: You're really stubborn.

If two or three consoles that have the same ram as the PS1, have processors faster than what's needed to run those 2D games and then some, why is it across the same games the PS1 and one other may run the games at 60fps, and the other two are running ports of the same games at 30, and it's not multi dev incompetence with the ports?

Since you didn't read, I'm gonna explain again, even if I doubt you'll even try to understand what I said. But well let's try again: Yes it's the devs incompetence because again THE FREAKING CD DOESN'T SPIN DURING THE GAMEPLAY IN MOST GAMES. The only example I can give would be morern odern games like the GTAs on PS2 which load and unload chunk of the map in prevision of where you're heading. Older examples, as I already cited them are FMV games that stream videos at a low framerate on Mega CD and game that use redbook audio. In both case, these games have to keep the CD spinning in order to either load and unload frames or simply read the CD audio tracks like an audio CD system.

But in the case of 2D games, let me tell you the CD never has to load anything during the gameplay and so IT DOESN'T SPIN, THE CD DRIVE IS SLEEPING.

So no. It's impossible that the drive could be a bottleneck for the framerate during the gameplay of a classic 2d game. And I'll tell it to you again and again if you want, the dev is at fault in your example. Also I know you'll use my words out of context so I'll just finish the sentence like this.

Some consoles are choppy in animations and/or run a 30fps, the others are 60fps and run smooth, the processors are not the issue, the RAM is the same, some consoles are actually easier to develop for than the PS1 even or about the same, so what is the differentiator? One of those consoles btw, has sprite hardware too, where as the rest including the PS1 don't.

Responding again: It's the dev since the CD drive doesn't load anything during the gameplay end of case.

What's the differentiator?

You quoted (out of context) the issue, but as you continued you completely skipped over answering the qu6estion you quoted. The Disc drive speed and technology of the drives are the only difference between the platforms for running even non-complex 2D games differently than each other. There is not other explanation that exists. '

Again the CD drive doesn't load anything during the gameplay.

I think the issue is simply that you are reading what I am saying as "EVERYTHING ON SCREEN" is streaming to CD

You quoted me wrong too. I just gave you the example of why devs don't load any 2D assets during gameplay. I never said it had to be like this and that you said this.

, when it's just that the CD drive is a major supporting mechanism combined with other factors in helping with 2D games.

Yes and no. It allows more data and redbook audio but it trades this for loading times and less seamless experience. Except if you're on a more modern hardware starting from the DC, PS2, NGC and XBOX gen which had enough RAM and fast enough drives to swap in and out data. But before you quote me on this. Games that stream game data on these machines do it either by having hidden loading screen (FF7 remake with corridors even though it's technically an HDD game is a good example) or by swaping IN ADVANCE (SO IT DOESN'T FREEZE THE GAMEPLAY) the chunks of a map. At most, what could happen in that case if we had exactly identical hardware except for the drives would be some freezes (just like shang sung) because a drive couldn't load the chunks fast enough. But never and I'll say it again: Never it will make the framerate drops from 60 to 30. Once the assets are loaded in RAM, the game goes back to whatever framerate its GPU, CPU and RAM combo would allow.

When you realize that and not that I'm saying everything is being drawn from the disc, or some of the other things that were misquoted by others previously which may have helped cause that confusion, then things make a lot more sense.

Hopefully that clarifies things.

A little wakeup call so that you won't avoid what I repeated over and over: the CD drive doesn't load any data of a 2D game during gameplay so the drive speed doesn't have any incidence on a game performace

Also, sorry i'm lazy (and I won't let you go without this). Can you give us a link of Carmack saying that the drive speed affects the framerate? Because i'm still waiting...

 

[RoboFu]

the cd drive cannot stream animations. they all have to be in ram. It’s basic knowledge.

 

[Futaleufu]

Of course FMV got a bad rep, Sega had it, Nintendo didn't so it was turned into ammo for console wars, with one side quickly dismissing all FMV games as rubish. Who needs FMV games and moving forward the medium when you can play more platform games?

Super Robot Wars F / Final / Alpha / Alpha Gaiden (PS1) are games that keep the CD drive active all the time while it's showing combat animations. Voice samples are streamed when needed but there's also a lot loading before and between the attack/counterattack phase. The music is midi-like so it's not that.

 

[pramod]

I guess another reason I thought of this thread was the recent Megadrive Mini 2 which had a port of Space Harrier. Yes, the actual arcade Space Harrier.
Supposedly they simulated some sort of scaling hardware thru software, but everything else was basically running on a base Megadrive.

So this does prove that with hardware scaling support, you CAN get a pretty decent(but flickery) port of a super scaler game.

 

[Team Andromeda]

FMV was a good thing to use, the problem was the SEGA CD was bad at it, and many players first experienced FMV gaming on it which had added to it's already mixed reputation today. PC in the early 90's was going in a different direction with FMV than the Sega CD was.



Yeah, but we are talking about games from 85-86, when Sega had more recent scaling games to port over that would have been a better incentive to buy. Outrun on the MD was a decent port for what it was and it wasn't really getting MD's off the shelf.

I mean even the PC Engine, Hucard even, got a port of Power Drift, neither the MD or the Mega CD got a port and that probably would have gotten more attention than Outrun and Space Harrier.

SEGA spite scaling tech was still being used well into the 90's, by all its AM teams , not a single home port at the time got close to giving us sprite scaling, much less get close to the fantastic music of SEGA Arcade games
It wasn't until 1993 that SEGA really looked to use polygons and even then it was just one division and even then, Yu Suzuki and AM2 had all sorts of issues getting their heads around polygons.
The early 1990's is when people were being amazing by the likes of Mode 7 and F-Zero in the home and even it the Arcade its was sprite scaling that was wowing us in the Arcades I was just amazed at the scaling in the likes of Rad Mobile, Arabian Fight

I would say most people who had a Mega CD wanted to see and that's fancy scaling and rotation effects and stuff that Mode 7 couldn't do or handle and sadly we didn't much of it at all and it was like SEGA's answer to the SNES. SEGA needed to give the Mega Drive spite scaling effects and a audio chip, that could play back simultaneous sound samples.

To SEGA America credit they looked to at the start with having John O' Brien pushing the Mega CD from the start and giving a game that looked and played like a SEGA Arcade game with Batman Returns. Sadly, Night Trip (which is a good game) gets all the pres and hype and SOA then instead spends a forunte on FMV games that barely made any really use of the Mega CD and something it wasn't really designed for.

 

[Ozzie666]

Dodging again, explain the choppiness and lower frame rates for the same games on other consoles that have the same RAM as the PS1? You haven't answered that yet because you have no answer, as the only differentiator is the CD-Drive.



We are dealing with misinformation man Cireza who is in the middle of misquoting what was said.



Still skipping a step.

This really isn't hard guys, here's a post about Doom:

When analyzing the PS1 port compared to the Jag, the PS1 CD ROM drive faces a significant disadvantage being only 2x, which is much to slow for dynamically swapping out assets. This is an obstacle all CD-based consoles had at the time including the JAG CD, and that's not including seek times just to start reading the data. The PS1 does have 2 MB of RAM which is shared with the Jag, however the major advantage to its favor is the PSX doesn't have ROM storage. ROM access-times were leaps and bounds faster than what any CD-based console was capable of for the time.

As a result, you can easily dynamically allocate textures or swap them out quickly from ROM when no longer needed. On the PS1, this process is much slower due to it's low CD transfer speed. As a result, the port rarely swaps out assets as each time it attempts to do so grinds the game to a halt or substantially slows it down in order to slowly read and transfer the data.

Instead, the programmers opted to put more focus on the PS1's VRAM instead of working with the slow transfer speeds from CD, but as a consequence there are less enemies in the PS1 port compared to the Jag. The Jags faster transfer rate helps make this seamless, and requires less overall RAM on the Jag in execution. John Carmack back in 1994 was reportedly not a fan of CD as a medium for gaming then, thinking that all it added was bloat companies felt obligated to fill up with video and audio, instead of offering any real benefit to game design.

He's comparing a Jaguar CARTRIDGE version of doom to the Playstation CDROM version and commenting on the 2x being too slow. Last I checked Doom wasn't a fully 2D heavily dependent sprite game, with large 3rd .WAD file levels. The animation and sprite work in doom is far from a heavy sprite pushing game. I read this quote completely different than you. It's not the smoking gun you think it is, I don't think it supports much of what you are saying to be honest. One uses a lot of calculations, one doesn't. Also didn't doom on PS1 have very small, truncated levels? with many loading screens? with everything loaded into ram?

All that he says is a 2x drive is too slow, compared to immediate ROM access. No shit, of course it's too slow. But he also says it's pretty much a flaw of CD Rom technology.
Below is a list of CD rom speeds. At what point do you think sprite streaming would actually work well, compared to almost instant loading ROM access? Considering the time period, back in 1994, I don't think even JC had an idea in 1994. I don't have an answer, but I suspect it's pretty far down this list, if at all. Considering seek times and uncompressed files. I don't even think 12x speed would fix MK Shang Tsung swap.

Asset swap does not equal streaming. It means filling the available ram with bulk loads.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

You only quoted the end and obviously didn't read the whole explaination I gave you about why the drive is not used at all during the gameplay in most cases. I gave you real examples and you gave me nothing. That confirm gthe idea of you I had: You're really

No, you didn't answer the question factually, you just like to hear yourself talk. I did read your post, and even now you still avoided twice not directly answering the question, but you did touch on it slightly within this frankly condescending post, which boils down to,

Responding again: It's the dev

While this is doesn't say much I also find this an effortless rug sweep. If there were different devs doing the ports of differing calibers this may make sense, but when nearly all 4 consoles have the same amount of ram (with the one that doesn't not even needing the same amount for the non-complex 2D games a 16-bit consoles could run at 60 with with a marginal decrease in quality.) , some of which are easier to develop than the PS1, 1 which had sprite technology while the other 4 do not (5 if you include the Saturn which would make 2) and by the same dev porting the same engine, this excuse doesn't really work.

You also didn't really address what was said earlier brought up earlier and skipped it. instead of addressing that you decided to try and go around it and make a big post going over something you already said. It's the lack of actually addressing what is being brought up that's the issue here. You can't say I'm accusing you of dodging when you're being as indirect as possible talking about "wake up calls" and talking down through a large post that barely addresses what was brought up in the first place.

All that he says is a 2x drive is too slow, compared to immediate ROM access. No shit, of course it's too slow. But he also says it's pretty much a flaw of CD Rom technology.

What he actually says broken down,

PS1 CD ROM drive faces a significant disadvantage being only 2x

This is an obstacle all CD-based consoles had at the time including the JAG CD

his process is much slower due to it's low CD transfer speed.

Seems clear he's saying the 2X drive specifically is slow, mentions all CD consoles at the time and brings up the Jag CD which came out in 1995, all those consoles used 2X drives of varying tech. The transfer speed is too slow, he's clearly implicating that the speed was too slow for what was needed to be done from CD in Doom, and that 2x drives were an obstacle. He never said that CD in general was the issue compared to carts in a general sense, he uses words like "only" "too slow" "low transfer speed", and "obstacle at time" while bringing up another CD console (add-on) which also happened to use a CD drive, and described the issue of what the PS1 had issues doing because of it's slow drive, while also describing what happens when you DO try to do it with the PS1's slow drive. He's clearly directly pointing fingers tot he Drive.

Also to repeat, I never said load everything from the CD, but it being used in conjunction with other hardware.

<>

Apparently people working with Carmack

Apparently Carmack is a "homebrew developer" now. Learned something new.

Carmack saying that the drive speed affects the framerate? Because i'm still waiting...

Annnd that's a wrap. The evasion, misquotes, and skipping over key parts of posts to make it seems like I said something else than I did is one thing, but the bad faith arguments have now led to twisting me talking about someone who isn't Carmack, magically now being about Carmack (why would he quote himself at the end of the post?)

It's clear where this is going and I'm going to keep getting the run around and having my posts changed (which didn't work to well in the past), so I'm going to go with the statement from the professional who is "NOT" Carmack as I originally said, instead of people who are actively avoiding addressing the main issue or even keeping my posts in tact. It's clear despite the illusion there's no interest in an actual discussion and minds were already made up, and looking through Beyond 3D, very similar conversations has been brought up there too, so I'll go with the consensus.

 

[PhaseJump]

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

SEGA spite scaling tech was still being used well into the 90's, by all its AM teams , not a single home port at the time got close to giving us sprite scaling, much less get close to the fantastic music of SEGA Arcade games
It wasn't until 1993 that SEGA really looked to use polygons and even then it was just one division and even then, Yu Suzuki and AM2 had all sorts of issues getting their heads around polygons.
The early 1990's is when people were being amazing by the likes of Mode 7 and F-Zero in the home and even it the Arcade its was sprite scaling that was wowing us in the Arcades I was just amazed at the scaling in the likes of Rad Mobile, Arabian Fight

I would say most people who had a Mega CD wanted to see and that's fancy scaling and rotation effects and stuff that Mode 7 couldn't do or handle and sadly we didn't much of it at all and it was like SEGA's answer to the SNES. SEGA needed to give the Mega Drive spite scaling effects and a audio chip, that could play back simultaneous sound samples.

To SEGA America credit they looked to at the start with having John O' Brien pushing the Mega CD from the start and giving a game that looked and played like a SEGA Arcade game with Batman Returns. Sadly, Night Trip (which is a good game) gets all the pres and hype and SOA then instead spends a forunte on FMV games that barely made any really use of the Mega CD and something it wasn't really designed for.

Mega Drive was Sega making a cheap follow up to the SMS in 1988 so how the Genesis turned out tech wise was actually in a better light than the SNES, which based on the tech and time period it released and was developed should have blocked the Genesis from being competitive at all. But that's not what happened.

As for the CD, th3ere was definitely a lack of production and effort into some of the Sega CD ports, a lot of interactive FMV instead of FMV incorporated in gameplay, and stuff like Soul Star was few. FMV was hype even SOJ supported some FMV but several of those games were old, video wasn't impressive enough to grab the consumers attention, or after the first year or so the CD was on sale, most popular FMV games were actually games which Sega had little of, mostly seen on PC or early games of later consoles.

Sega CD had the potential to do a lot and add a lot to MD games and we just didn't get it. SNES managed to impress people with mode 7 use in games for years, even screen transitions in some Jrpgs used it, and mode 7 was comparably simple. By the time it was getting old hat they got the FX chip ready with Star Fox which helped usher in along with DKC, a new wave of sales for the next few years. While Sega was for some reason still supporting the Sega CD even after they pulled the 32X, long after the Sega CD was already dead.

I am assuming that Sega must have seen a lot of money very early on, but when they missed the opportunity to improve the library (or price) and sales cratered they mist have had way too much invested in the Sega CD to simply stop bothering with it by 1994 so kept it going for some years longer. Because that's the only reason I can see why they would keep selling a dead horse. Not even Sonic CD, which was one of the few games that took advantage of the Sega CD to improve games, couldn't get more people to buy it that late in the game because the interest outside of Sonic CD for a time just wasn't there.

I guess another reason I thought of this thread was the recent Megadrive Mini 2 which had a port of Space Harrier. Yes, the actual arcade Space Harrier.
Supposedly they simulated some sort of scaling hardware thru software, but everything else was basically running on a base Megadrive.

So this does prove that with hardware scaling support, you CAN get a pretty decent(but flickery) port of a super scaler game.

The thing about Space Harrier and Out Run though are those are among the oldest scaling games back in the 1.0 days, and Sega produced much more attention grabbing scaler games after. Those were the games people were seeing in arcades and those would have been the ports that sold especially on the Sega CD.

Not saying that older games can't still sell, Ms.pacman sold over 1 million copies on the Genesis after all, but as we saw with MD ports of a few Sega arcade games they weren't enough

 

[nkarafo]

Hmmmm...

- You were talking about a homebrew developer all the time, who proves everyone else here wrong.

- I asked who is this mysterious "my friend who works at Nintendo" (that was a joke btw) homebrew developer you are talking about.

- You said "So now Carmack works for Nintendo, i learned something new today".

- Nobody ever mentioned that name before YOU did.

It's simply incredible to me how you completely forget your own previous posts and then think everyone else must be dense except you.

It's clear where this is going and I'm going to keep getting the run around and having my posts changed (which didn't work to well in the past), so I'm going to go with the statement from the professional who is "NOT" Carmack as I originally said, instead of people who are actively avoiding addressing the main issue or even keeping my posts in tact. It's clear despite the illusion there's no interest in an actual discussion and minds were already made up, and looking through Beyond 3D, very similar conversations has been brought up there too, so I'll go with the consensus.

Oh please, you never addressed several points me and others brought up (like how in many games you can remove the CD while playing) and you never gave examples of specific games to backup your claims, despite describing a specific scenario.

You simply present a fantasy scenario of "what if" two systems have the same hardware and only the CD Rom speed is different (as if any console is the same with another) but the game runs slower and the dev is not incompetent and the port quality is the same, etc, etc, and try to bait everyone into answering what you want to hear.

No, man, sorry. You are completely clueless to this subject, you have no idea how basic tech works, you completely misunderstand everything you read from other sources and then come here, trying to educate everyone. That last part is what makes me not want to ignore you. I have time to kill so I'll always be here to correct you and make sure others don't fall to your misinformation.

 

[Drell]

No, you didn't answer the question factually, you just like to hear yourself talk. I did read your post, and even now you still avoided twice not directly answering the question, but you did touch on it slightly within this frankly condescending post, which boils down to,

Say the guy who cites my comment about the dev and didn't even read THE FACT THAT THE CD DOESN'T LOAD ANYTHING DURING THE GAMEPLAY SO IT'S NOT A FACTOR IN THE FRAMERATE. Your question is answered since a long time ago but you refuse to try to understand what everyone is telling you. You're simply dellusionnal and hate being wrong.

While this is doesn't say much I also find this an effortless rug sweep. If there were different devs doing the ports of differing calibers this may make sense, but when nearly all 4 consoles have the same amount of ram (with the one that doesn't not even needing the same amount for the non-complex 2D games a 16-bit consoles could run at 60 with with a marginal decrease in quality.) , some of which are easier to develop than the PS1, 1 which had sprite technology while the other 4 do not (5 if you include the Saturn which would make 2) and by the same dev porting the same engine, this excuse doesn't really work.

Fine you want another answer for your example? The CD doesn't load anything during the gamplay so there's no reason multiple exactly identical consoles (except for the drive) to have difference of framerate because an inactive component at this moment. The only difference would be load time length. Your comparaison makes no sense, it would be like saying that the PS5 can do 60 fps instead of 30 thanks to its SSD. It's the same shit.

You also didn't really address what was said earlier brought up earlier and skipped it. instead of addressing that you decided to try and go around it and make a big post going over something you already said. It's the lack of actually addressing what is being brought up that's the issue here. You can't say I'm accusing you of dodging when you're being as indirect as possible talking about "wake up calls" and talking down through a large post that barely addresses what was brought up in the first place.

I've adressed it at least 10 times now: The CD doesn't load anything during the gameplay it's not a factor in the framerate. I know you'll dodge this because you're stubborn but I'll keep telling it to you

What he actually says broken down,
Seems clear he's saying the 2X drive specifically is slow, mentions all CD consoles at the time and brings up the Jag CD which came out in 1995, all those consoles used 2X drives of varying tech. The transfer speed is too slow, he's clearly implicating that the speed was too slow for what was needed to be done from CD in Doom, and that 2x drives were an obstacle. He never said that CD in general was the issue compared to carts in a general sense, he uses words like "only" "too slow" "low transfer speed", and "obstacle at time" while bringing up another CD console (add-on) which also happened to use a CD drive, and described the issue of what the PS1 had issues doing because of it's slow drive, while also describing what happens when you DO try to do it with the PS1's slow drive. He's clearly directly pointing fingers tot he Drive.

Also to repeat, I never said load everything from the CD, but it being used in conjunction with other hardware.

<>

Link to this ?

Annnd that's a wrap. The evasion, misquotes, and skipping over key parts of posts to make it seems like I said something else than I did is one thing, but the bad faith arguments have now led to twisting me talking about someone who isn't Carmack, magically now being about Carmack (why would he quote himself at the end of the post?)

It's clear where this is going and I'm going to keep getting the run around and having my posts changed (which didn't work to well in the past), so I'm going to go with the statement from the professional who is "NOT" Carmack as I originally said, instead of people who are actively avoiding addressing the main issue or even keeping my posts in tact. It's clear despite the illusion there's no interest in an actual discussion and minds were already made up, and looking through Beyond 3D, very similar conversations has been brought up there too, so I'll go with the consensus.

Dodging everything like a pro again. I won't believe you with juste "well he said this". I can make anyone telling anything if I want

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Hmmmm...

- You were talking about a homebrew developer all the time, who proves everyone else here wrong.

First fabrication

- I asked who is this mysterious "my friend who works at Nintendo" (that was a joke btw) homebrew developer you are talking about.

- You said "So now Carmack works for Nintendo, i learned something new today".

- That was your own reply. Nobody ever mentioned that name before YOU did.

2nd, this is what I said:

Apparently people working with Carmack are at Nintendo now. Learned something new.

It's simply incredible to me how you completely forget your own previous posts. Instead of falling down this hole you dug, the discussion is back on the FMV Sega CD topic now.

The reason these mistakes happen often is because you keep ironically, spreading misinfo, intentionally misquoting/paraphrasing, and cutting off key parts of posts that specifically impact context, so you're not even responding to what you're supposed to. You do the same stunts every time, not one honest back and forth has occurred yet with you without you using the same tactics, and now it's backfired on you yet again.

Anyway as I said before, I'll go with the professional consensus. You disagree with it, so we know what each of us believes nothing left to argue. The misreading issue could have been a simple blunder if you didn't chase after it.

<>

Say the guy who cites my comment about the dev and didn't even read THE FACT THAT THE CD DOESN'T LOAD ANYTHING DURING THE GAMEPLAY SO IT'S NOT A FACTOR IN THE FRAMERATE.

Which is irrelevant to the question. You aren't clarifying a single thing because you are posting to condescend, you aren't answering the question directly even now, It's a simple question simply asking you to describe the differentiators, bolding text in all caps doesn't answer that question and instead leaves it on the table. You keep adding and broadening the conversation way beyond it's simple scope, and are now generalizing saying the CD can't load at all during gameplay AT ALL when we already had examples listed before earlier that do.

You are also accusing me of dodging a statement I never made about a person I wasn't referring to, that you misread, so how could I be dodging?

You're going so hard on talking down you aren't even realizing you are now saying that the CD on any consoles doesn't load anything during gameplay at ANY time, even though there are examples already listed in the thread, and one you mentioned in your first post. The fact you skipped the others and misread the quote only going after me, shows me you're not actually wanting to answer questions but have a vendetta.

In this case there's nothing else to be argued. I'll go with the pro insight on this and if you disagree that's fine, but I am convinced that their statement is true since they directly addressed the issue I had put out, and gave a game example of why it wouldn't work due to "speed" and data transfer specifically. I've also seen some mentions of CD loading on Beyond 3D forums and it seems they have more technically knowledgeable people who break down the components and what works in what games, so I invite you to also, if you want, take a look there for CD, animation, and general sprite loading discussion. If not, then we will just have to agree to disagree because they seem to have enough hardware knowledge and info to convince me personally.

 

[nkarafo]

I did misread the Carmack part. My bad.

But the point doesn't change. The quote you posted (either by him or his colleagues, doesn't matter) still doesn't prove your case because you are misinterpreting it.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Of course FMV got a bad rep, Sega had it, Nintendo didn't so it was turned into ammo for console wars, with one side quickly dismissing all FMV games as rubish. Who needs FMV games and moving forward the medium when you can play more platform games?

Super Robot Wars F / Final / Alpha / Alpha Gaiden (PS1) are games that keep the CD drive active all the time while it's showing combat animations. Voice samples are streamed when needed but there's also a lot loading before and between the attack/counterattack phase. The music is midi-like so it's not that.

Interesting. Of course your post will be skipped as usual

As for console wars that is definitely a factor, though Sega didn't have the proper tech for better FMV quality, and focused a lot on interactive movies, the consoles wars also did play a factor. I remember talk about how CD wasn't needed for the SNES but Sega "needed" the CD, which they didn't but you know how things went back then. Even now I'm sure you'll find people who believe that on some sites that Sega launched the CD because they were in trouble or something when they were leading, in the US and Europe anyway.

In Japan vs the PC Engine that may be a less silly argument. The Mega CD didn't do well there compared to the much more successful PC Engine CD but it would make sense that given NEC had an add-on first Sega saw the success and thought to have the Mega CD ready to take advantage of the opportunity. In the end despite a big early lead, the PC Engine was not even 3 million ahead of the Mega Drive in total sales. I think it's something like 3.2 million to 5.8 or something similar, so Sega later on must have cut some of their share off.

 

[Drell]

Which is irrelevant to the question. You aren't clarifying a single thing because you are posting to condescend, you aren't answering the question directly even now, It's a simple question simply asking you to describe the differentiators, bolding text in all caps doesn't answer that question and instead leaves it on the table. You keep adding and broadening the conversation way beyond it's simple scope, and are now generalizing saying the CD can't load at all during gameplay AT ALL when we already had examples listed before earlier that do.

You're going so hard on talking down you aren't even realizing you are now saying that the CD on any consoles doesn't load anything during gameplay at ANY time, even though there are examples already listed in the thread, and one you mentioned in your first post. The fact you skipped the others and misread the quote only going after me, shows me you're not actually wanting to answer questions but have a vendetta.

Never said that I couldn't AT ALL. I gave you plenty of examples. That's misinterpreting again. What I'm keep saying is that the devs doesn't use the CD to load things during the gameplay except if it's a situation where streaming is needed. Yoiu know what? You can be happy, you won the argument. You're too much annoying. Good luck with him nkarafo.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Never said that I couldn't AT ALL. .

sigh

Fine you want another answer for your example? The CD doesn't load anything during the gamplay so there's no reason multiple exactly identical consoles (except for the drive)

THE FACT THAT THE CD DOESN'T LOAD ANYTHING DURING THE GAMEPLAY SO IT'S NOT A FACTOR IN THE FRAMERATE

Bolded specific absolute statements answering a popst mentioning multiple games and multiple consoles. If you said "likely" or "some" or reformatted your words maybe but as I said, this is not you wanting to answer questions, this is you with a chip on the shoulder.

Anyway, I already said I agree with the hardware insight that was quoted earlier that addressed the questions I asked, so this issue has already been resolved.

You were the one who brought up the number of sprites. I simply pointed out to you the Mega Drive and Master System didn't push a lot of sprites either.

I put to you that in a tiny little UK studio could push the Mega CD and fully use the Mega CD ASIC chip, like CORE Desgin did
Then SEGA Japan should have been able to make far better use of the system.

I wonder if there was friction between SOA and SOJ on the Sega CD like the 32X an/d Saturn, as that may explain how both sides treated the add-on,

 

[RAIDEN1]

sigh




Bolded specific absolute statements answering a popst mentioning multiple games and multiple consoles. If you said "likely" or "some" or reformatted your words maybe but as I said, this is not you wanting to answer questions, this is you with a chip on the shoulder.

Anyway, I already said I agree with the hardware insight that was quoted earlier that addressed the questions I asked, so this issue has already been resolved.



I wonder if there was friction between SOA and SOJ on the Sega CD like the 32X an/d Saturn, as that may explain how both sides treated the add-on,

There may have very well been friction there which then came to a head circa 1993-1994 in one arm deciding to build a 32x bridge to the Saturn, and the other wanting nothing to do with the bridge

 

[UnNamed]

PSX can stream data from disk during gameplay, and some games used that feature, but disks are very slow for ton of reasons, like drive speed way lower than claimed, data corrections, all the issues of being a mechanical device vs solid state solutions, eventual drive flaws going back and forth, etc. It's not about more memory or speed, loading from a disk drive is a pain in the ass.

 

[Alexios]

Maybe it just wasn't good enough? I don't think most CD games push out as many sprites as their arcade stuff. Or as fast. They look closer to something like Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco GP II on Genesis than the arcade original to me. But it does have some cool and smooth stuff like Thunderhawk.


Crazy and shitty they didn't have more sprite scaling based games on Saturn even though, it could probably be on par with (or top with some use of 3D and stuff) their arcade stuff and they'd have fared and aged much better than some 3D stuff.