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The Atari Jaguar had Arcade level 2D, missed potential.

MrA

Member
This is wrong and despite the time I spent giving you concrete examples on how even a console like the Saturn is bandwidth constrained, you are refuting the argument on the basis of your complete ignorance of all technical aspects.


This is a Neo Geo cartridge PCB. Yes, there are two boards. Yes, the number of connectors is enormous. Which leads to a very big bandwidth of data. And the console itself was conceived exactly the same way. It has a monster of a motherboard.
Yeah I was going to bring this up too the neo geo has like 5 individual memory busses, if it needs any piece of data, it gets it

How the Atari dev's ever thought their console (the Jag) would ever be a success in the state it was in, we will never know....but in absolutely no way was it showing the power of 64-bit...despite what it says on the tin...(so to speak...)
The jag being a tactic to sell atari is a total possibility, jack tramiel was no fool
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Which would be Need For Speed an Ridge Racer, I don't see Sky Hammer really competing with either, that goes for other early games that aren't spite games with polygons scattered around. Maybe early flight sims by small name devs.
I think its pretty obvious the Jaguar's tech is not geared towards 3D rendering first and formost. Like i said, System 22 would be where it is at.
I guarantee you the PS1 can't handle this game if it can't even handle a basic arcade conversion of a simple scaler title that that Saturn can easily run with more objects and animation at 60fps with better draw distance.
PS1 has Road Rash which looks incredibly similar to this, but with 3D polygonal back grounds.
It was understood that Neo Geo was like the Rolls Royce of gaming....you had that then you had THE 2d powerhouse directly in your home on a level the SNES or Genesis couldn't compete on....I think the NEC could have made a dent in Europe if they had tried...or more globally so to speak instead of just patchy coverage in the U.S.of A...etc...
Sharp X68000. Development workstation for actual arcade hardware.
(But yes Neo Geo games are special in terms of 2D prowess. Its no wonder the machine had incredible long support - up to 2004 - commercially.)
 
This is reminiscent of that thread from a few years ago where that dude was arguing the Atari Lynx was more powerful than the Genesis.

Except that doesn't make sense, in this case we KNOW the jaguar is stronger than the Neo Geo in 2D capabilities with actual proof/examples of games it can't run, also does sprite scaling better thatn the PS1, worse than the Saturn.

The Lynx doesn't do a single thing better than the Genesis. It wasn't even the most powerful portable it was 2nd behind the TG16Express.

with little to no amimation frames on enemies,
So you've already proven you haven't played or paid attention to videos of the game good start.

they are for the most part static sprites with less complex animated frames than og Galaga.

Continuing to prove you have no clue what you're talking about.

In the Hunt has better sprite work , animation, and density than any schmup on the jaguar

Sprite work is subjective and has nothing to do with technology.

In the hunt does not have better sprite animation, it has less going on, and is much slower.

Yeah, no, i'm not buying how the better effects and parallax scrolling in the PS1 Rayman port are as such because "more storage". Sorry.

Atari Karts has the same number of parallax layers in the background as Rayman on the PS1 despite being a worse 2D game, it's literally the storage preventing parallax in Rayman (which was one of the many things Ubisoft thought to add with the larger storage). You're ignorance of how things work is what is hurting you here. We are talking a 3MB game, yes, things like parallax take up space. This is where your hung up on and it's literally because you have no knowledge of how development works that you think parallax doesn't take up space.

PS1 version was also worked on later, they decided to add several things at the same time due to the storage space, they didn't just say "let's extend some levels" they added all the new additions (and removed some too.) You still have avoided talking about the missing frames from the PS1 version too, because you never really had an argument and have been trolling in bad faith this entire time. Storage space should give PS1 more frames or the same frames as the jag by default, why were the frames removed? You won't answer because you know the strikes a point against the PS1.

Lomax looks better, not only because of the aesthetics but it also has more things going on than Rayman, technically.
And all of that is due to the storage space not the console, this is obvious from level 1 just looking at the background, that's not 2D spite work happening there based on just a sprite background and you KNOW you're being misleading here.

You also already admitted that the PS1 does worse scaling than the Jaguar, which requires being able to move high res and high quantities of sprites that can be distorted, and that applies to horizontally as well. So you've already indirectly admitted the Jaguar has better 2D capability with sprites than the PS1, you're grasping for straws at this point using a subjective "visual appeal" argument.

One more thing, your gifs don't show what you want to demonstrate. The are all 30fps or lower. Maybe post some 60fps videos instead?

There's not one PS1 game that can move sprites faster than Defender 2000 not one nor with a ship that moves that fast, all sprites. There is not a single all sprite game that can do anything in that game released on the PS1 because the hardware isn't there, it doesn't even have sprite hardware and makes sprites using the Polygon engines, so by default if it tries to go fast it chokes or has to sacrifice something in another area. This is why several PS1 shooters that "seem faster have 3D polygons in the game to help with sprites on top, or FMV loops. The N64 actually needs this to a greater extent than the PS1.

Did you just imply the N64 is worse than the MD or SNES at 2D? Why?

Since you don't know much about the N64, i'll tell you. From all the games i played, i'd say it's right behind the Saturn (if you count things like Rakuga Kids as 2D).
You have not only proven you don't know anything about the N64, but you also are moving the goal posts. We have been talking about sprites the whole time, in an all sprite game the N64 is extremely limited and the hardware is crippling, you need to have limited sprites, usually helped by polygons in the area since an all sprite game with any complexity would choke the N64, and have these sprites locked to a plane horizontally without the environment stretching to far out of the plane where the sprites are, otherwise 3D is needed to avoid taxing the system.

N64 games with help and limitations, can have sprites look decent and even sizable to a limited extent with quantity limitations, but if you actually try to DO something with those sprites the system sets fire. That's why any attempt to do so requires other aid and can't just use sprites only, or, anything that involves a behind the back pseudo-3d perspective or scaling is incredibly hard to do.



Does any game Jaguar game have something like this?

or this?

I asked for "clean"(high res) large detailed colorful sprites. You haven't given me anything more technically impressive than the trumpet guy from Rayman in the OP gif on the first page.

Looking through recent posts it seems people are too unintelligent to separate art style from technical graphics and continue to conflate the two. For some reason people can separate looks from what's under the hood. trumpet guy is higher res by a long shot, more effects, is larger than both, and had more than double the colors.

This is a common problem with people who don't understand this but this is just silly. What's also interesting about the Neo geo's limitations, is that the more detail you try adding to the sprites, the more low res and pixeled they become which can be seen with most later games that aren't trying to be clean and simple but instead trying to look like 32-bit games. (also Metal Slug is 30fps with dips in ALL games, though Metal Slug 2 is the worst and has some bad slowdown too.)

No one is saying that most jaguar games have some odd artstyle choices, this thread isn't about visuals it's about the gears that make the machine work. The Jag and the Saturn can do each of those games, the reason why the Saturn or Jag would have a problem with either, is due to lack of Ram, and in the Jags case, storage space to house all the sprites the way the Neo Geo does to ROM. Yet Rayman, a 3MB game on the Jg, has more colors, higher res, and sprite capabilities than the Neo Geo, so imagine f the Jaguar had carts hundreds of MBs, that throws the animation argument out the window which is the only advantage the Neo geo has.

The Neo geo is also slow, and can't move sprites around faster than the Jag, at the color, size, or high res of the Jag either, several of it's most detailed games with lots of sprites (relatively) are slow.

Not people, just one person.

This is coming form the guy that came in admitting the jaguar had better 2D capabilities than the Neo Geo, now you are going to lie and say that I "doubted" the power of the neo geo even though I never made any argument about "doubting" it's power, just that it's not as strong as the Jaguar, and backpedaling on your first post?

How many goal posts are you going to move?

This is wrong and despite the time I spent giving you concrete examples on how even a console like the Saturn is bandwidth constrained, you are refuting the argument on the basis of your complete ignorance of all technical aspects.

No the problem is you only know about the Neo Geo but have no clue about the other systems hardware, and are making fanboy oversimplification arguments about machines you don't understand. So you project that lack of knowledge onto other people so you can pretend they don't understand the technology.

The thing about it is this thread isn't about frames of animation, it's about sprite capabilities, the Saturn has better 2D technology than the Neo Geo (and Jag), because of issues porting a Neo geo game tot he Saturn resulting in losing frames of animation or needing a 4MB cart have nothing to do with the Neo geo having better sprite capabilities than the Saturn. you are making an incredibly desperate argument that a factor which has nothing to do with the neo geos limited 2D technology proves the Neo geo is more capable of handling sprites than the Saturn, when all it really is, is the Neo geo storing a bunch of sprites in ROM aided by it's RAM architecture.

Trying to pretend Dezooming is "scaling" is also a desperate attempt to pretend the neo geo is more capable then it is. It can't scale downward the way a scaling game o the time can do, it can only make a direct shrink of a sprite, and then blow it back up to regular size, it can't scale upward or do the reverse of it's shrinking process, and it can't move sprites around fast enough or at a high enough resolution, or with a high amount of colors, and it can barely do any distortion or other sprite effects that the jag and Saturn, and even the PS1 can do.

Therefore, unless you can prove otherwise, you are just making a pointless argument that has nothing to do with the topic.


Check your facts. Neo Geo CD and CDZ always had single speed drives. If you are going to blatantly lie or spread misinformation, you might as well stop discussing right now.

Are you hallucinating? The only one lying is you, I have said the neo geo CD had a 1X drive multiple times so you clearly never read anything. What did I lie about? I said before which you didn't read, that because they had 1X drives blaming them doesn't make sense. Because the PS1 and the Saturn have 2X drives, and the Neo geo CD was also poorly put together and is not just a Neo geo with a 1X CD drive, both factors contribute to why it had issues handling Neo Geo AES/MVS games despite the 7MBs of ram.

So now you're either just imaging things or lying yourself. I never denied they were 1X, i said that BEFORE.

It was understood that Neo Geo was like the Rolls Royce of gaming....you had that then you had THE 2d powerhouse directly in your home on a level the SNES or Genesis couldn't compete on....I think the NEC could have made a dent in Europe if they had tried...or more globally so to speak instead of just patchy coverage in the U.S.of A...etc...
I don't think you understand how much money NEC spent in the USA, it's early domination in Japan costs aside, NEX spend $25 million just in 1990 which I believe that article is in the NEC Sega thread. Not including advertising from partners the system, games, or accessories. 1991 they did more trying to stay a float once things turned for the worst post Sonic and SNES launch, which toped and then fell in 1992 where they decided to give up.

Considering what they spend in Japan and in the US, they may have gotten worse results if they tried to put more focus on Europe and if they split the spending on US with Europe, than NEC would have failed their much earlier, maybe even after 1989 since they were a no name in electronic entertainment circles and were known as a computer and chip company while Sega had name recognition and was in the arcades.
 
Ridiculous, much subject changing going on moving away from the thread. This is about 2D capabilities, not art style or whether you think a game is more visually pleasing to the eye, it's about the tech under the hood. What 2D technology does a console have and what due to this technology, can that consoles hardware do with sprites, that was the entire point, and the Jag is 2nd only to the Saturn in this department. Every argument so far, outside those going back on their own posts from before (rafo) has had nothing to do with this, instead there's been a focus on arbitrary advantages that have nothing to do with sprites or what 2D technology does for controlling the sprites themselves.

Therefore, instead of trying to provide evidence for this in clustered replies, it's best to consolidate the differences here in one post


NEO GEO​

Riding Hero



  • Low choppy frame rate that's inconsistent
  • Low color count
  • Neo Geo can't scale properly, can only shrink and restore to original size of sprite (it regrows frame by frame instead of scaling to imitate the effect)
  • Lack of sprites on screen.
  • Can't move sprites fast enough, especially smoothly
  • Poor draw distance
  • Choppy background Parallax
  • Mostly empty field absent of detail
  • Low resolution sprites


N64​

Zool



  • Low frame rate that can dip to the teens
  • Struggles to scale sprites even with polygonal help and not sprite only.
  • Movement choppiness
  • More detail than Neo Geo
  • Low res and blurry sprites on character and sprites (not polygons) in the environment
  • Rotation lacks smoothness, struggles with choppiness.
  • Low number of sprites being scaled, only one directly being moved slowly.


PS1​

Night Striker



  • 30FPS with dips (Saturn version 60fps consistent)
  • Low res sprites and buildings, some road sprites seem cleaner
  • Flicker and choppiness when enemy copters appear and move toward center of the screen.
  • Bullets also 60fps
  • Scaling is inconsistent and jerks around
  • Good color count but not too high.
  • Low draw distance (Saturn version is farther)
  • Low amount of objects scaling on screen at once, buildings are sporadic and move slowly in choppy fashion.


Atari Jaguar​

Super Burnout





  • 60FPS for all sprites
  • Day night cycle
  • Large number of sprites/objects scaling in
  • Sprites scaling in are themselves large (and other sizes including the short side rails, signs, etc)
  • High resolution sprites with vibrant colors and detail
  • 60FPS remains when other racers are on screen
  • Good draw distance
  • Animation (clouds) and parallax in the background
  • Smooth buttery fluidity
  • Sprites and environment give a sense of depth and scale when the player is swinging left to right, or going up or down hills, still at 60FPS
  • Can move sprites around fast


Sega Saturn​

Special Criminal Investigation





  • 60FPS
  • Large number of very large and other sized sprites scaling on screen.
  • More animations for player sprite (skids, spins, passenger popping out to shoot)
  • More animation for some of the opposing sprites
  • Physics when crashing into or running over/past objects
  • Environmental effects (rain, smoke, flying helicopter, etc) that change in real time.
  • Area theme changes instantly when going in and out of tunnels with new sprites.
  • Smooth and fluid animation, occasionally chops (rare)
  • Good draw distance
  • Opposition can move anywhere on the track instead of of forward
  • Very high color count
  • High resolution sprites with great detail
  • Lightning effect
  • Can move sprites on screen very fast.




With this it's obvious that compared to the N64, Neo Geo, and PS1 the Jaguar can moves sprites faster and smoothly than the other 3, and it can scale with more sprites, with high res sprites, and a higher color count, while also having animation and parallax in the background, while also not slowing down when there are more big bike sprites on the screen, even if it was all the other racers bunched up, with a day night cycle that happens in real-time. You don't have the limitations of the Neo Geo, the blurry low res struggling N64, and the choppiness and low on screen sprite quantity of the PS1.

The Atari Jaguar's architecture combined with the Blitter+OPL is the best sprite engine of the 4. What it can DO with the sprites and the technology that lets it do it, is superior than the others.

However, the Saturn is on another level because it was targeting 2D graphics ahead of the what the Jaguar was aiming for, as it was designed to match graphics that were more current in the arcades. it to has many of the same advantages of the Jaguar but more, with better scaling, more objects and colors on screen, higher res sprites for characters and objects, and the VDP2 helper aid in in doing all kinds of things with sprites without losing (most of the time) quality or becoming blocky.


In terms of powerful 2D technology and what that technology can do for and to sprites by capability, you can rank as follows based on the capabilities;

1st: Sega Saturn
2nd: Atari Jaguar
3rd: Sony Playstation
4th: NIntendo 64
5th: SNK Neo Geo
6th: Sega CD+Genesis/Mega Drive
7th: Super NES(+chips)
8th: 3DO Multiplayer
9th: Commodore CD32

It would have been great to have more next generation 2D, but outside of japan (and even there 2D was mocked occasionally but not to often) they got people to turn against it for 3D, and while there was some great 3D stuff once in awhile, a lot of it was pretty bad and has aged poorly. At the time though people didn't mind that, unless the game was really bad at it.
 
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cireza

Member
intense suffering

You are totally projecting on people here. I have never said even once that Neo Geo was a better system at sprite scaling than, say, the Saturn. But dezooming is indeed a form of scaling. And I have absolutely zero interest in your what-if scenario where people play Street Fighter Third Strike in a Jaguar cabinet. However you are making assumptions that are baseless, and this is where I think that being corrected is appropriate. Rather than letting you spread misinformation.

You were pointing at the fact that 1x speed was the problem with the loadings, but it is not ONLY this, since CDZ largely improved loadings while retaining the single speed drive. Do you only realize that Neo Geo games simply load much more content into RAM than PS1 games, since there are 7 MB to potentially fill with data ?

1st: Sega Saturn
2nd: Atari Jaguar
3rd: Sony Playstation
4th: NIntendo 64
5th: SNK Neo Geo
6th: Sega CD+Genesis/Mega Drive
7th: Super NES(+chips)
8th: 3DO Multiplayer
9th: Commodore CD32
It depends. What are you ranking ? Number of colors on screen ? Size of sprites ? Number of sprites ? Bandwidth ? Resolution ? Framerate and animation ? Only scaling and nothing else ? Transparency ? Raster effects ? Rotation ? Parallax scrolling ?
Because depending on the answer, the order will be different.
 
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You were pointing at the fact that 1x speed was the problem with the loadings, but it is not ONLY this, since CDZ largely improved loadings while retaining the single speed drive.

i did not say this, I said a 1X drive was the problem, i didn't say it was the "loadings" by itself, I also said the CD was poorly built.

My actual first post addressing the Neo Geo CD in response to you

The Neo Geo CD was poorly built with it's own issues and has a 1X single speed disc drive. Not the best example.

You are the only one moving away from losing topics in your posts, and switching to something else, projecting, and spreading misinformation with ever changing inconsistencies. Your suffering (as you put it, more projection) has caused you to imagine something that I never replied with.

But we are done with this game you're playing, as the proof has been compiled above all in one place, it's time for you to get back on topic.

The above comparison post removes your ability to continue your vain attempt at trying to be misleading on what the topic is about, and has provided indisputable evidence. You should view it and maybe you'll actually learn something. Including what the actual thread is supposed to be about.

If you want to discuss the TOPIC based on the above comparison, then I'll be glad to indulge you. But if you're just going to continue making false statements about things I never said to you, then it's off-topic and you've derailed enough.

I suggest you to move on, I am wrong and off-topic, and projecting out.

It seems to me you have some problems to work out, being wrong is one thing and you can always suck your gut in and admit it, but when you start making stuff up to make yourself feel as though you have any value in a conversation, well, that just shows you're having some real problems in life.

I have absolutely zero interest in your what-if scenario where people play Street Fighter Third Strike in a Jaguar cabinet.

yes, that Neo Geo game, Street Fighter Third Strike. You're on a role with the fake quotes you made up.
 
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nkarafo

Member
The fuck is Zool?

Why not compare Yoshi's Story (a more advanced 2D game than anything on Jaguar) instead of an obscure, crappy, Japan only title that isn't even 2D? Why not compare something like Bangai-O? Let me guess, because the game you picked looks bad so it serves your arguments? This is called "bias".

The way you ramble shows you have no technical knowledge outside what you read in Wikipedia or other forums. And i admit i'm no better, i also don't know as much regarding the inner workings of consoles. Which means neither of us has to buy what the other one says so this is futile. Maybe someone who knows better could post some actual knowledge. Especially someone who isn't a fanboy of a certain console (i never thought the Jaguar was capapble of that, lol). Until then, i'll trust my eyes more than your ramblings, sorry again.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
The fuck is Zool?
Originally an Amiga platformer, rather known.

Personally i prefer actual test performance data from the chips than some gifs from selected games and then stating with definitive fact that one of the sprite engine is faster than the other. That's no objective measurement.

Maybe someone who knows better could post some actual knowledge. Especially someone who isn't a fanboy of a certain console (i never thought the Jaguar was capapble of that, lol). Until then, i'll trust my eyes more than your ramblings, sorry again.
I mean, i could. But just like with graphics arguments, you rather want the actual blueprints or papers. I find those make much more sense on a technical level than a gif-by-gif comparison that is bound to be subjective.
 

nkarafo

Member
Originally an Amiga platformer, rather known.

No, not that Zool, the one that guy posted.

Apparently, it's a crappy looking Japanese game on the N64 with some 2D elements.



I mean, i could. But just like with graphics arguments, you rather want the actual blueprints or papers. I find those make much more sense on a technical level than a gif-by-gif comparison that is bound to be subjective.

Anecdotal but there was an actual programmer in the Sega16 forums some time ago who claimed the N64 is almost as capable as the Saturn, with 2D assets/graphics. I think with games like Yoshi that made sense to me.
 
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The way you ramble shows you have no technical knowledge outside what you read in Wikipedia or other forums.
You literally don't understand how scaling works, so you think Yoshis story is proving the N64 is more capable with handling sprites when it doesn't. it can make less complex sprites look pretty, has nothing to do with what's under the hood.

Apparently, it's a crappy looking
You got to get out of this visual=capability habit.

The fuck is Zool?

Why not compare Yoshi's Story (a more advanced 2D game than anything on Jaguar) instead of an obscure, crappy, Japan only title that isn't even 2D? Why not compare something like Bangai-O? Let me guess, because the game you picked looks bad so it serves your arguments? This is called "bias".

You're ignorance of how sprite scaling and the engines and hardware involved is interesting, but now it's getting a bit silly. The bias is actually with you by intentionally refusing to learn.

In order to have scaling like the jaguar or the Saturn, you need to be able to have many multi-sized, but definitely large high resolution sprites, and hardware that can handle many sprites (character and objects) on the screen at once. The hardware and sprite capabilities must be able to move sprites fast on the screen as well without hiccups or as little as possible preferably at a solid or smooth 60fps, the sprites needed to be able to be changed and turned, especially when the camera is tilting to the side which will give a different view of an object sprite than when looking straight on, you have to have sprites with detail, and a high color count. You would also need additional 2D features like background animation, parallax, or anything else (environmental changes in real-time, 2D weather effect etc.) and more. All this without compromising on anything, or if there is any compromise it's minimal and barely noticeable.

While this has proven t be hard for you to actually understand, especially regarding the N64,m the N64 can't really do much of this and what it can do it does poorly.

There is a reason why a standard 2D sprite engine may possibly look good in the arcades, but the scaler arcade hardware requires 2-3x the power to run. I would say that Mark of Wolves looks better than AB Cop but you'd have to be crazy to believe that Mark Of wolves has better 2D technology than whatever arcade hardware is running AB Cop, which not only is much faster but has features the Neo geo can't even to for and to sprites.

To say Yoshis story is more advanced than anything on the jaguar is just emotional outputs nothing more, and is almost the same as saying it's more advanced 2D game on anything in on the Saturn. You just don't understand the technology and that lack of understanding is why you are making such odd comparisons. Pretty has nothing to do with the limited 2D capabilities' of the N64, compared to two machines that actually have 2D hardware for sprites.

Zool is the best representation of the N64 trying to do what I said in the first paragraph, and it does it poorly, there are actually more individual sprite objects scaling on that map than having Bangio character fly around shooting a bunch of bouncing copy/paste bullets with low res static collectibles on a fixed plane. The N64 isn't doing much TO sprites in the game because it can't do much more than what's already happening.

Zool in comparison is actually trying to have a modestly scaled sprite environment which no other sprite game on the N64 is trying to do, with multiple detailed but low res sprites across the map (ignoring the polygons) and the player character.

Visual opinions have nothing to do with tech and capabilities.

The N64 can't handle SCI like the Saturn can nor can it handle Super Burnout like the jaguar hand because they have better hardware to show of sprite capabilities and have more flexibility to what can be done TO sprites. This also goes for the PS1, Neo Geo, 3DO, and the others.

What you're doing (repeatedly) is the equivalent of telling me the Killer Instinct arcade cabinet is more capable of handling 2D sprites than the Super Chase Arcade hardware from a year earlier because you like how pretty the sprites are for the former. But when you actually look at what both games do for sprite capability, you realize that's crazy and the latter is more powerful.

Surely you see the difference between those two, and now you get why the N64 sprites are limited (which is also why there are very few all sprite games if any, which is why i used Zool since it showed the best attempt at sprite complexity in an engine attempting to scale multiple sprites, although there are polygons as well, without those it may have ran even worse with strict sprites.)
 
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MrA

Member
If
You're ignorance of how sprite scaling and the engines and hardware involved is interesting, but now it's getting a bit silly. The bias is actually with you by intentionally refusing to learn.

In order to have scaling like the jaguar or the Saturn, you need to be able to have many multi-sized, but definitely large high resolution sprites, and hardware that can handle many sprites (character and objects) on the screen at once. The hardware and sprite capabilities must be able to move sprites fast on the screen as well without hiccups or as little as possible preferably at a solid or smooth 60fps, the sprites needed to be able to be changed and turned, especially when the camera is tilting to the side which will give a different view of an object sprite than when looking straight on, you have to have sprites with detail, and a high color count. You would also need additional 2D features like background animation, parallax, or anything else (environmental changes in real-time, 2D weather effect etc.) and more. All this without compromising on anything, or if there is any compromise it's minimal and barely noticeable.

While this has proven t be hard for you to actually understand, especially regarding the N64,m the N64 can't really do much of this and what it can do it does poorly.

There is a reason why a standard 2D sprite engine may possibly look good in the arcades, but the scaler arcade hardware requires 2-3x the power to run. I would say that Mark of Wolves looks better than AB Cop but you'd have to be crazy to believe that Mark Of wolves has better 2D technology than whatever arcade hardware is running AB Cop, which not only is much faster but has features the Neo geo can't even to for and to sprites.

To say Yoshis story is more advanced than anything on the jaguar is just emotional outputs nothing more, and is almost the same as saying it's more advanced 2D game on anything in on the Saturn. You just don't understand the technology and that lack of understanding is why you are making such odd comparisons. Pretty has nothing to do with the limited 2D capabilities' of the N64, compared to two machines that actually have 2D hardware for sprites.

Zool is the best representation of the N64 trying to do what I said in the first paragraph, and it does it poorly, there are actually more individual sprite objects scaling on that map than having Bangio character fly around shooting a bunch of bouncing copy/paste bullets with low res static collectibles on a fixed plane. The N64 isn't doing much TO sprites in the game because it can't do much more than what's already happening.

Zool in comparison is actually trying to have a modestly scaled sprite environment which no other sprite game on the N64 is trying to do, with multiple detailed but low res sprites across the map (ignoring the polygons) and the player character.

Visual opinions have nothing to do with tech and capabilities.

The N64 can't handle SCI like the Saturn can nor can it handle Super Burnout like the jaguar hand because they have better hardware to show of sprite capabilities and have more flexibility to what can be done TO sprites. This also goes for the PS1, Neo Geo, 3DO, and the others.

What you're doing (repeatedly) is the equivalent of telling me the Killer Instinct arcade cabinet is more capable of handling 2D sprites than the Super Chase Arcade hardware from a year earlier because you like how pretty the sprites are for the former. But when you actually look at what both games do for sprite capability, you realize that's crazy and the latter is more powerful.

Surely you see the difference between those two, and now you get why the N64 sprites are limited (which is also why there are very few all sprite games if any)
Dude with the energy you've put into this thread you could have written your own jag game
 
If

Dude with the energy you've put into this thread you could have written your own jag game
Not even remotely although I know this is sarcasm, I am not as one would claim in their outburst a Jaguar fanboy, the Jaguar has a lot of problems and it takes much time to produce something good that actually runs on the system unless it's 2D, which explains the homebrew scenes output. The Jaguars architecture combined with the OPL+Blitter gives it an edge in 2D games over 3D or hybrids, not the best, as that would go to the Saturn as demonstrated above with its superior sprite capabilities, but 2nd place. The PS1 actually isn't too far behind either.

Outside of this one fact on 2D sprites that has gotten some people to believe I have a bigger admiration of the system than I actually do, the Jaguar loses every category to it's contemporary brother the 3DO, which i believe has better games, and more games that are fun to play than the jaguar. I also believe this for the CD32, Neo Geo, the PS1, and the Sega Saturn.

It only seems like there's a high admiration due to the pushback to those who don't want to give the failed console credit on ONE thing that it's second best in.
 

nkarafo

Member
I would say that Mark of Wolves looks better than AB Cop but you'd have to be crazy to believe that Mark Of wolves has better 2D technology than whatever arcade hardware is running AB Cop, which not only is much faster but has features the Neo geo can't even to for and to sprites.
But the Killer Instinct arcade board (that you mentioned) is far superior, technically, and more modern than the Super Chase one (that you also mentioned) even though the former isn't made specifically for sprite scaling.

But other than sprite scaling games, any other 2D game you will try to make on that board, such as a Platformer or fighting game, will look far better because the tech allows for more effects, more detailed backgrounds/foregrounds and assets, more animation, color depth, transparencies and any other fancy shit the Super Chase hardware is not as capable of.

You seem to think sprite scaling is the only thing that matters but it's just one technique of the many. The jag may be better at this one thing (i'll take your word for it) but 2D games are about many more than just that. You kinda remind me of someone arguing the Atari Lynx is better than the SNES/Genesis, etc at 2D graphics, only because it has hardware sprite scaling. Hope it wasn't you.

So yeah, outside sprite scaling, i still believe the PS1 and N64 are better at 2D than the Jaguar, and all the games mentioned prove this. At some point, the beauty and extra visual flair of a game shows the superiority of the hardware. There's no way something like Yoshi's Story could be done on the Jaguar without massive regressions. Not even if it was spread on 4 different carts (so you won't use the storage argument again).
 
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baphomet

Member
Not only can OP not figure out something as simple as the quote feature, but he's obviously trolling.

Trolling or genuinely stupid.
 
But the Killer Instinct arcade board (that you mentioned) is far superior, technically, and more modern than the Super Chase one (that you also mentioned) even though the former isn't made specifically for sprite scaling.

It's not superior in what it does with sprites, there are non-scaling games that do more than Killer Instinct on the same hardware. I can have an Atari 2600 with a 1070 in it but it's still not going to be able to do more with sprites than a genesis based on its limitations.

But other than sprite scaling games, any other 2D game you will try to make on that board, such as a Platformer or fighting game, will look far better because the tech allows for more effects, more detailed backgrounds/foregrounds and assets, more animation, color depth, transparencies and any other fancy shit the Super Chase hardware is not as capable of.

This is false. The Neo Geo cannot make better games than Super Chase Hardware, neither can the PS1 or N64.

it's easy to use resources and make a horizontal static sprite pretty and sacrifice everything else in terms of sprite capability. China Warrior on the TG16 would be a pretty good example of that.

It's why I constantly mention that despite it being brought up, Jaguar is not the best 2D the Jaguar offers, but the reason why it keeps being brought up is because it looks pretty. Rayman isn't even the best strict 2D game that the PS1 offers, but the sprites look pretty so it's listed often when people talk about 2D capabilities of the PS1.

What the KI hardware was build to only handle killer Instinct as it plays. A modified version also is designed to play KI2 as it plays. The Super Chase hardware which is superior in what it can do with sprites, effects, and backgrounds is used for multiple games and not just with scaling.
 
Not only can OP not figure out something as simple as the quote feature, but he's obviously trolling.

Trolling or genuinely stupid.

Here's a thought that may not have crossed your brilliant mind while you were adding nothing of value to the thread,

Maybe.....the quote feature (I assume you are referring to the button next to reply) may not be working properly for me at this time? Like maybe it's not actually adding the quotes for example? That's what happens when you make up your mind without inquiring.

I'd ask you to elaborate on how I'm trolling, but I highly doubt you could articulate how the gifs above that clearly show an advantage in sprites are trolling. Don't want you to add too much substance to a post all at once.
 
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BlackTron

Member
I don't. I think it's better than the Saturn at 3D and almost as good at 2D.

The texture cache was simple to overcome, though a bit more labor intensive. RARE showed how it's done with Banjo-Kazooie (using x amount of smaller textures to create a single bigger one).

It has 4 MB RAM, which is the same amount as the Saturn + 2MB expansion and with it's own expansion pack it can reach 8MB. It also uses cart ROMs that are bigger than the Jaguar's but smaller than the later Ne-Geo games.

Theoretically, the N64 could do perfect arcade conversions of many Midway, Capcom and SNK games using 16 or 32MB carts. Games like MK1/2/3, SF Alpha and the first Metal Slug could fit in such cart without cuts and still have the speed of the cartridge and enough RAM if needed. But in 1998, when the first 32MB cart appeared, these games were too old i assume and the ROMs too expensive for the investment so maybe that's why we never saw such conversion. Otherwise i don't see any technical limitations to prevent such ports. I hope the homebrew community fixes that some day.

Hold on, do you think I was saying N64 was like a shittier Saturn? To be sure, I definitely meant the Jaguar.

I'm not sure if you mistook me or just decided to talk about N64 for awhile lol.
 

nkarafo

Member
What the KI hardware was build to only handle killer Instinct as it plays. A modified version also is designed to play KI2 as it plays. The Super Chase hardware which is superior in what it can do with sprites, effects, and backgrounds is used for multiple games and not just with scaling.

Um, there is no way a board based on a modern (at the time) 100mhz CPU is less capable than a board based on a measly 68020 CPU at 16 Mhz (all according to MAME info). If you know any other hardware details and you disagree, feel free to prove it.

You are simply in favor of specific, sprite scaling capabilities and ignore everything else. By your logic, the X-board is more capable at 2D than, dunno, the CPS3 or something, just because the former is specifically made for sprite scaling. I bet you probably believe this, even if i'm saying it as a joke.


Hold on, do you think I was saying N64 was like a shittier Saturn? To be sure, I definitely meant the Jaguar.

I'm not sure if you mistook me or just decided to talk about N64 for awhile lol.

Yeah, i must have read it wrong.


I highly doubt you could articulate how the gifs above that clearly show an advantage in sprites are trolling.

Dude, your gifs aren't even 60fps. You supposedly want to show us how amazing the Jaguar is but you make it look worse.
 
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BlackTron

Member
So it looked like you were talking about the N64 to me.

Yeah I can see how it would appear that way unless you're reading your game forum like it's law. Just a few small words making the difference there tbh.

I meant N64's tiny texture cache was a non-issue compared to Jaguar's screwups. And agree with everything you said about 64 lol.
 
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nkarafo

Member
Yeah I can see how it would appear that way unless you're reading your game forum like it's law. Just a few small words making the difference there tbh.

I meant N64's tiny texture cache was a non-issue compared to Jaguar's screwups. And agree with everything you said about 64 lol.
I re-read your post and i definitely read it wrong, so it was my bad. I edited my last response but you beat me to it, lol.
 

Ozzie666

Member
Here's a thought that may not have crossed your brilliant mind while you were adding nothing of value to the thread,

Maybe.....the quote feature (I assume you are referring to the button next to reply) may not be working properly for me at this time? Like maybe it's not actually adding the quotes for example? That's what happens when you make up your mind without inquiring.

I'd ask you to elaborate on how I'm trolling, but I highly doubt you could articulate how the gifs above that clearly show an advantage in sprites are trolling. Don't want you to add too much substance to a post all at once.

Using a game like 'Zool' on the N64? really? Bangai-O, Rampage, MK, KI, Mischief Makers there are several better examples of 2D on the N64. But the system was never pushed by the experts, so it shares that in common with the Jaguar.

It's okay to be wrong sometimes, you don't have to win the internet or every argument, or have a retort to everything. But you seem pretty pot committed to your path.

If you want to die on this hill and believe Jaguar 2D capabilities > Neo Geo (whatever system) you go ahead and do that. But you do come off as pure trolling or arrogant. And that's okay, because it's fun and entertaining to read.
 

MrA

Member
Using a game like 'Zool' on the N64? really? Bangai-O, Rampage, MK, KI, Mischief Makers there are several better examples of 2D on the N64. But the system was never pushed by the experts, so it shares that in common with the Jaguar.

It's okay to be wrong sometimes, you don't have to win the internet or every argument, or have a retort to everything. But you seem pretty pot committed to your path.

If you want to die on this hill and believe Jaguar 2D capabilities > Neo Geo (whatever system) you go ahead and do that. But you do come off as pure trolling or arrogant. And that's okay, because it's fun and entertaining to read.
You know at atariage there's a bit of a joke
How capable is the jaguar?
Capable of causing drama
 

frap

Neo Member
Eddie-Griffen has created a thread for the ages.

How many of us would accept this challenge: Defend the Atari Jaguar's performance by any metric you choose but you have to use Super Burnout as your primary evidence.

It seems impossible. But Eddie-Griffen has done it while finding entertaining ways to dispute all the various objections.

Even if Eddie-Griffen is correct, his chances of convincing anyone of his thesis is, unfortunately, 0%. All of us know this. Even he knows this. Yet, this does not discourage our hero from laying down the truth as he sees it and forcing us to recognize his attempt to meet the challenge.

So, thank you Eddie-Griffen, for your efforts to ensure the Atari Jaguar is properly recognized for its missed potential. A hopeless, but admirable quest.
 

cireza

Member
i did not say this, I said a 1X drive was the problem, i didn't say it was the "loadings" by itself, I also said the CD was poorly built.
In what world was the Neo Geo CD poorly built ? I actually owned the system (a CDZ) and I can tell that it was a very well made console, with a top quality RGB signal, and acceptable loading times considering the amount of data that has to be loaded. The fact that they managed to shrink that monstrous Neo Geo PCB in the small CDZ is an accomplishment.

The Saturn isn't exactly lightning quick at loading a game such as KoF 07, by the way.

yes, that Neo Geo game, Street Fighter Third Strike. You're on a role with the fake quotes you made up.

You actually are a on role. The role of the 2022 Jaguar crusader.

The bias is actually with you by intentionally refusing to learn.
Says the guy that has absolutely zero understanding of anything he has been talking about for 4 pages now.

is just emotional outputs
And hopefully, you will manage to deal with those.
 

tygertrip

Member
...(keeps saying the Neo-Geo can't scale sprites)...
Shrinking sprites IS scaling. To "scale" something is to change its size, proportionally, according to a factor. The Neo-Geo is limited to using a factor < 1 (on the original sprite), but it is still scaling. Calling it "dezooming" or "shrinking" is just another way of saying "scaling down" or "scaling by a factor < 1". Pedantic, I know, but truth. Just because it can't scale a sprite larger than its original size doesn't change the definition of "scaling".
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
No, not that Zool, the one that guy posted.
I mean you can't blame me for pointing out the obvious on the question What is Zool - I wouldn't think of this rather obscure Japan-only game, haha.
Anecdotal but there was an actual programmer in the Sega16 forums some time ago who claimed the N64 is almost as capable as the Saturn, with 2D assets/graphics. I think with games like Yoshi that made sense to me.
The Aleck64 arcade hardware had Tower & Shaft which is a rather clean 2D game.
I'd say N64 was perfectly sound for this, just not well-known for it. Its prowes was after all its 3D capabilities.

Killer Instinct ran on a custom arcade platform with a MIPS R4600 and 1 MB of graphic RAM. It has some similarities to N64, but it is vastly more expensive and scales FMV sequences rendered entirely on SGI computers.
You're ignorance of how sprite scaling and the engines and hardware involved is interesting, but now it's getting a bit silly. The bias is actually with you by intentionally refusing to learn.
Honestly consistently reading this incredibly condescending ire is getting tiresome. If you really want to prove this, do so with technical details - GIFS are a comparison piece but not a technical piece. If you are going to call Zool a good example of the N64 doing poor sprite scaling, show how and why. What's the technical limitation, if any?
Shrinking sprites IS scaling. To "scale" something is to change its size, proportionally, according to a factor. The Neo-Geo is limited to using a factor < 1 (on the original sprite), but it is still scaling. Calling it "dezooming" or "shrinking" is just another way of saying "scaling down" or "scaling by a factor < 1". Pedantic, I know, but truth. Just because it can't scale a sprite larger than its original size doesn't change the definition of "scaling".
Maybe we should start with the Sega VCO Object - The first arcade hardware to exhibit a (primitive) form of scaling, and work from there.
 

BlackTron

Member
The problem is lack of key software. Even the Jaquar could have been successful if it had an incredible lineup of games.

Yes and no. In order to hit critical mass with games, the hardware has to be on point. You need to make a system that devs want to work on, and people want to buy (name/look/marketing/price).

That's the magic of PSX.
 
Um, there is no way a board based on a modern (at the time) 100mhz CPU is less capable than a board based on a measly 68020 CPU at 16 Mhz (all according to MAME info). I

Lol mame info. There are variations of that same hardware.

Also you clearly are either just completely brainless or are incredibly stubborn to not understand how simple to understand the examples I gave are.

Dude, your gifs aren't even 60fps. You supposedly want to show us how amazing the Jaguar is but you make it look worse.

dummy it makes the other systems look worse. The gifs put them on the same frame rate playing field and those other gifs still struggle.

Shrinking sprites IS scaling. To "scale" something is to change its size, proportionally, according to a factor. The Neo-Geo is limited to using a factor < 1 (on the original sprite), but it is still scaling. Calling it "dezooming" or "shrinking" is just another way of saying "scaling down" or "scaling by a factor < 1". Pedantic, I know, but truth. Just because it can't scale a sprite larger than its original size doesn't change the definition of "scaling".

It's not the same scaling that actual scaling machines use, the method is different, you're making a misleading argument. It's not real sacling, semantics i irrelvant because the method is different.

In what world was the Neo Geo CD poorly built ?

The guys is so full of himself he's now positioning his ignorance as fact and now going out of words from SNK's own mouth about the problems with the Neo geo CD. best you educate yourself before going further, let me know when you do instead of making outburst post just to act s if you are replying with insight, because you aren't.

Using a game like 'Zool' on the N64? really? Bangai-O, Rampage, MK, KI, Mischief Makers there are several better examples of 2D on the N64.
Already the N64 boys are moving away from the topic which is focusing on 2D sprites, and is listing 3D games or 2.5D games with some sprites. Granted, there are only a few examples of all sprite N64 games so there's not much to work with and they aren't demonstrating anything, the best for multiple sprites being moved (slowly) on a plane is zool, the only example without "cheating" I can find. At least not too much.

N64 is incapable of an entire playfield of sprites including the background, and moving them at any decent speed and any decent SIZE, at any decent frame rate, with all the sprite tricks, which it can barely do any. The weaknesses in this area is precisely why a game liek Radiant Silver gun would have problems on PS1 despite the PS1 having better video and fmv object technology as the Saturn, because the difference are the sprites, not everything around them.

People are just being emotional about consoles like the N64 without realizing it's bad at sprites. They will lsit games that literally prove this point without the education to know that several of those games are not sprite playareas and need other "assistance" to run as they are. Which wouldn't be needed if the N64 could actually handle a game where the playfield is all spites, including the background. It's why Lomax being brought up is utter ridiculous because the background in the first level isn't fully a sprite and is an effect that's pre-rendered and animated which is only possible with large storage space, some parts of the game it's literally part video/FMV.
 

cireza

Member
The weaknesses in this area is precisely why a game liek Radiant Silver gun would have problems on PS1 despite the PS1 having better video and fmv object technology as the Saturn, because the difference are the sprites, not everything around them.
What makes Radiant Silvergun impossible to replicate on PS1 is the extensive use of the VDP2. The PS1 runs Soukyu Gurentai well, a game that is pretty comparable to Radiant Silvergun in terms of sprites.

In any case, the Jaguar is the console that would have handled this game the best, as demonstrated by the incredible Super Burnout, without a doubt.
 
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I could be way off , I’m sure I read in a magazine around the time Jaguar was out, that Konami planned to release some 2D games for the system, Tiny Toons being one of them.
 
If you really want to prove this, do so with technical details - GIFS are a comparison piece but not a technical piece. If you are going to call Zool a good example of the N64 doing poor sprite scaling, show how and why. What's the technical limitation, if any?
I've done this multiple times in the thread. You either aren't reading it as you imply or are being selective in what you are reading to come to this conclusion. I've explain the sprites and the capabilities and what each console can do well or not using those gifs clearly as an example as well (with their own bullet points) so in the best case scenario you are being disingenuous.



Being rude shows how weak your arguments are.
You do a lot of projecting. Guess you think people can't read. But I guess you have to get out such a poor argument, but I'll try once more to simplify my examples and explain this to you below one more time.

there is no way a board based on a modern (at the time) 100mhz CPU is less capable than a board based on a measly 68020 CPU at 16 Mhz

Variation aside you have no idea what you're talking about, how hard to I have to downgrade my examples until you actually get how this works? Outside of what Ki does to show off, that arcade machine can't do anything that the Super Chase machine can do NOTHING. it can't spin the sprites based on angle at that speed, it can't do all the sprite tricks, it can't have the draw distance, it can't have allt he effects, and do what it can with objects and backgrounds, it can't do any of that because the machine doesn't have the capability to do so and when playing a Sprite based games, the latter is going to be more impressive, and it is.

Let me tell you how poorly uneducated and thought out your position is with an even more simple example you can't possibly dispute.

Let's look at 2 gaming capable systems for this example, the Sega Mega Drive and the any manufacture of the CD-I devices.

This is you're argument, you are saying that because the CD-i players have hardware that is more modern and in someway more powerful than that Mega Drive, than it i more capable with sprites. This is the argument you are making just with different hardware but it's the same argument.

The CD-I let's call them consoles, can produce a much more colorful, brighter, more detailed, and larger sprite easier than the Mega Drive.

However, the CD-I's capabilities with sprites stopes there. In certain games the quality of the sprites drops in real time, in fact for games with this advantage specifically the console can't actually move sprites fast at all. Something as simple as Sonic running, then jumping which is followed by a sprite change into a fast spinning ball, and an instinct change back to a standing run on ground impact, with momentum, is not possible on the CD-i. Yes, something that simple.

There would be a delay in between those frame changes and the animations would be slower OR, a graphical downgrade would have to be implemented (still at a slower speed just no delay) in order to achieve this, and most likely those animated background objects in the level may have to me removed and some being unanimated, or cutting the frame rate down.

The Mega Drive has impressive games, but even Sonic 1 is too much for the CD-I the bonus stage with the rotating blocks, the trippy background, the flashing, the CD-I cannot do any of that. When you look at some of the better space shooters they have ships doing all kinds of cool things, with many of them on screen, lasers everywhere, cool background and animation effects, waves and parallax in the background, same with the more impressive action games and platforms, and the CD-I can do none of it.

Vectorman performing as it does, with all the cool stuff it does that impressed people who owned a Mega Drive, not possible.

Things get even worse for the CD-I wit the Sega CD, an addon that uses a weaker format who's technology is dependent on the Mega Drive as the base. The shit you can do with backgrounds, sprites, and objects in non-FMV Sega CD games is not feasible with CD-I.

But even with all this technically, the CD-I is more powerful. It can create better simple sprites and in some cases static backgrounds, but if it tries to push its capabilities the limitations show up, sometimes resulting in worse looking games. At best this makes for great first impressions while playing and screenshots in magazines until you play for more than 5 minutes and then realize the hardware is a disaster despite being more powerful.

Power has nothing to do with capability. You have to be able to do better than what the weaker hardware can do or you end up with a less fluid looking, simpler, more limited experience usually at a lower frame rate with poor animation and incapable of doing even the most basic techniques.

This goes back to the Jaguar and N64, the N64 CAN produce better screenshot in magazine quality sprites, but it's less impressive, it can't do much with them or sprite backgrounds (which barely any games have). Another thing you are neglecting is the Jaguar, like the Saturn actually has hardware support for sprites, the N64 nor the PS1 are the Dreamcast they don't have enough raw power to make up the difference all these consoles are in the same range but only 2 had ever aimed for high fidelity 2D sprites during development, the PS1 isn't even double the strength of the 3DO, (but it was enough to improve the frame rates thank goodness and add better, though messier, texture mapping and higher count polygons) and you are here trying to act as if both the N64 and the PS1 can outdo a console fomr the same gen that actually has hardware for sprites? You must be joking?

The PS1 is a 3D system with limited sprite capability because like 3DO it wasn't made for it, though has enough power over 3DO to play the same 2D games at a higher frame rate, but has to use resources to create "fake" sprites using the 3D engine which back then was a liability because of how early it still was for 3D gaming on consoles, it took up resources that the PS1 couldn't afford to lose which is why any complex sprite 2D is significantly better in capability and performance on the Saturn. If it's simpler the gap is smaller (the Mega Man games) otherwise it's always one direction wins for the Saturn unless the developers are lazy or some other reason not hardware related pops up. The N64 is even worse in that regard which is why nearly all it's games that even have sprites need other features in order to perform well (to N64 standards) if they try to do anything more than the basics.

The Atari jaguar in contrast, most of the time generates polygons through an engine & tools that are made for 2D to create 3D (RISCS are often underutilized), and technically doesn't even have dedicated hardware for decent 3D acceleration. While it has Z buffer and can do Gouraud shading it has no geometry support. The Jaguar has problems with rendering polygons and often has processors competing for access to the bus, along with cycling issues.

But with sprites the jaguar doesn't have similar problems. It's also something Atari has always been good at compared to the competition in sprites, outside the 2600 this is true for every gaming device and computer they put out, except ST computers before the Falcon. Not only is the Jaguar architecture optimized for sprite capability it also has specific processors to help with enhancing the 2D experience and controlling the sprites which the PS1 and N64 do not have, this is also true for the Saturn which was aiming higher and has even support for sprites, not to mention VDP2.

It shouldn't be a surprise the sprites are better on consoles that were dedicated to the craft than the ones that weren't. Now if you are talking about 2.5D where you have polygons instead of sprites, Kirby 64, or limited sprites, the Jaguar will be worse, but if the playfield is all sprite or nearly so, the Jaguar is better than all of them except the Saturn because of hardware specializing in the it's sprite capabilities..

What's more is no one here with basic knowledge is going to say the Neo Geo is more capable than the Saturn at sprites, they know WHY the some Neo geo games have problems being ported over including you, they and you know it has nothing to do with capability but because of the RAM and how it works with the rom size. one user made an incredibly dumb argument about the Neo geo CD having 7mb proved the disc drive was the problem, ignoring that the Saturn has a 2X drive not 1x. Look at what games run with the 4MB EXTERNAL expansion and hw close they are to fixing the issue, now imagine it has another 3MB or 4MB more? Those games would likely be perfect, but that's got nothing to do with the fact that the Saturn can do thing with sprites in Pseudo 3D games that the Neo Geo would overheat trying to handle. Everyone knows this. But even if the disc drive is the problem, than that argument still rules out the Neo Geo being more capable with sprites, the argument is based on unrelated technology. The Neo Geo is not going to fold, bend spin, and flip the sprites with a rotating background with a flag effect with 5 layers of parallax like the Saturn. No one will deny this.

But for some reason when it's the Jaguar, common sense is out to lunch. (granted You specifically already admitted (but then tried to take back) that the Jaguar is more capable with 2D sprites than the Neo geo so there you go)

PS1 is not going to be able to beat that generations dedicated 2D hardware or the N64 it's not possible, they are both in the same generation and are in the same range of power as all the other consoles the world gave a minimum crap about. They can't produce the same results trying to simulate 2D with a 3D engine which takes enough resources as is.

As I shared with the CD-I example, they can both produce some great stills and maybe with limited motion seem as if they are more impressive until you realize that's just not the case. As shown pages ago the PS1 struggles with number of sprites on the screen, draw distance, half the frame rate, and worse muddy graphics in Night Striker, compared to the Saturn version, in a basic scaler, I'm talkin about marginally better than Space Harrier which the Jaguar has 3 examples better of just in the OP, the other scaler game on PS1 is even worse and attempts to cram more in, while Saturn Night striker has more buildings much faster sprites, more enemies on screen, and 60fps. We have already seen the Jaguar produce larger sprites at a much higher speed with smoothness and can move objects faster. Saying that "the gifs are 30fps" is a cop out, you now the names of the games, the gifs themselves still show the differences but you can always look up the videos, don't be dishonest as if you can't just type the name on youtube and see the games at their native frame rates yourself. All the gifs are accurate presentations and you damn well know it.

These are the same advantage that the Mega Drive has over the CD-I despite there being more GENERAL raw power in the CD-I console. Means nothing in the end unless that power is a generation or two ahead, and none of the consoles had that in raw power that generation (some say pippin but I have doubts about that).

So unless you have an argument about how the CD-I has more impressive sprite games and backgrounds despite all the limitations it has I mentioned above, along with a lack of background support (unless it's video) compared to the Mega Drive (you don't) then you don't have much of a reason to keep going because that is what you are arguing just with a different set of hardware.

No one in their right mind is going to say that the CD-I is more capable in what can be done with sprites than the Mega Drive. Everyone knows it can produce a better sprite based game.

Now when it comes to colors, certain animation techniques using the CD-I disc storage, FMV, video objects, yes the CD-I is better. Even the Zelda games while not the best the console has to offer, looks great and the media screenshots were jaw dropping to many people, and has nice CD audio too, but in reality even Bubsy has more going on with sprites than any sprite game on the CD-i, and at 3X the speed.

So why change the rules after the CD-I? Doesn't make sense.

Even the 3DO can produce better looking simple sprites using the power of it's entire hardware since t's overall more pwoerful, and can put something that looks great in a magazine, but then you play them and find that many are 30FPS or less, lacking fluidity, and the 3DO can't really do much in the way of sprite tricks and fast sprite movement.

I will give it credit for what it managed to do with Samurai showdown and some parts of Gex, even the scaling in the Sailor Moon fighter, though that game dips in the frame fate and those sprites barely do anything, but to say that the 3DO using your argument, would be more capable of 2D sprite gaming because it's overall more powerful with it's hardware is just lolworthy at best. All these consoles are in the same generation, Jag and Saturn were both originally targeting lower level 3D, limited texture mapping, flat polygons that were smooth and fluid, Gouraud shading and had more of a focus on next generation 2D (for consoles)

Of course Sega had made some changes to the Saturn to increase to better compere in 3D, though it turns out they couldn't afford to do that, at least they were able to as Atari didn't have the money to do that, and their hubris made them think that had some super man console for 3D anyway, stopping them from even considering doing the same thing. Both were developed to match early 90's sprite arcade hardware, Atari being earlier in development targeting a lower benchmark than Sega, and had capabilities to meet that in kind. The PS1 and N64 do not, don't have sprite hardware, and have to waste resources to imitate what the Sprite hardware for the Saturn and Jaguar can do for free or with less resources. The only consoles that would be powerful enough to be better than both Saturn and jaguar with sprites just on raw power alone is the Dreamcast. Some people say the Pippin too but I have doubts about that. You can see this with the Mega Man games, the Saturn version is better but the gap isn't huge, but the Saturn is also barely using horsepower but the PS1 is. The sprites in these games can work on the SNES and did (rockman and Forte) as all the Mega Man "32-bit" sprite games have sprites that aren't beyond what MD/SNES can do, the element that can are the colorful and uncompressed Jpgs that make up everything around the sprites and the backgrounds (and in X6 some of the environmental effects), Video objects and backgrounds, and FMV cutscenes which are the result of the large storage on CDs (except the X6 environmental effects) otherwise all the sprite related technology is no greater than on the SNES (outside slightly better res) and we have seen that sprite engine run on the SNES. The PS1's weaknesses are shown off here, if Capcom really tried the gap between the Saturn and PS1 versions of the shared Mega Man games would be much larger as seen with other more complex sprite games. X4 and MM8 have moments of slowdown that the Saturn version does not have among other weaknesses.

So going back to the Killer Instinct arcade machine, it's made to make sprites look pretty and epic, not to be technically impressive, and it shows, because Super Chase isn't the only game using the hardware or variations of the hardware, and all the same advantages are present. All look more impressive than a MK/SF rip off made specifically to have visual appeal in the arcades.

Again, unless you have an argument about how the CD-I has more impressive sprite games and backgrounds despite all the limitations it has I mentioned above, along with a lack of background support (unless it's video) compared to the Mega Drive (you don't) then you don't have much of a reason to keep going because that is what you are arguing, just substituting with arcade hardware, and Jaguar vs. PS1/N64 (both of which don't have dedicated sprite flexibility support, the latter needing to use other features to have something look presentable since it can't handle an all sprite playfield well) like the other 3), and if that's what you're argument is going to be you may as well also argue that the N64 has better 2D capabilities than the Saturn.

But then you won't go that far because you know the argument is poor. s demonstrated with the arcade hardware examples, the CD-I vs Mega Drive example, and so on. I know you are aware of this, no reason to pretend you are not.
 
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I could be way off , I’m sure I read in a magazine around the time Jaguar was out, that Konami planned to release some 2D games for the system, Tiny Toons being one of them.

Many developers were signed up to make games, or were making games, that were delayed than cancelled, or cancelled outright once the reality of Ataris' lies and financial problems came out.

Did you know that Atari couldn't for even one game create 100,000 copies? They were supposed to create 500k consoles by the end of 1994 and that didn't happen either. So developers realized that no matter how good the game is they had at best only a chance of low profit margins if they made any profit at all

Clearly in hindsight they should have released that $99 ST console in 1989.



But the Panther became the new focus and that was falling behind schedule while the Jaguar was ahead of schedule, so Atari switched to that. Problem is that they were coming in with 3D that was about 2 years late. If they had enough production to launch across the country in 1993 instead of 1994 maybe that 3D would have seemed much more impressive, especially since Star Fox came out that same year, and the jaguar had triple the frame rate that the ST and Amiga lines had with their 3D games, both on their deathbed.
 
What makes Radiant Silvergun impossible to replicate on PS1 is the extensive use of the VDP2. The PS1 runs Soukyu Gurentai well, a game that is pretty comparable to Radiant Silvergun in terms of sprites.

In any case, the Jaguar is the console that would have handled this game the best, as demonstrated by the incredible Super Burnout, without a doubt.

In terms of number but not what's done to them, and the VDP2 greatly aids in that. Its one of the reasons why Sega had marketed earlier these capabilities but outside of Japan (at first) that wasn't really a "sales" factor compared to 3D. Or early 2D sprite games that don't really push the Saturn making the PS1 seem more even than it is (look at the shared Meg Man sprite games) misleading the 2D power difference.
 

nkarafo

Member
Outside of what Ki does to show off, that arcade machine can't do anything that the Super Chase machine can do NOTHING. it can't spin the sprites based on angle at that speed, it can't do all the sprite tricks, it can't have the draw distance, it can't have allt he effects, and do what it can with objects and backgrounds, it can't do any of that because the machine doesn't have the capability to do so and when playing a Sprite based games, the latter is going to be more impressive, and it is.
Basically, the KI arcade can't do sprite scaling. Big whoop.

Super Chase can't do what the KI arcade does either, KI would look like shit on that hardware so what's your point?

I thought the thread is about 2D graphics not "sprites" specifically. So i guess it was my bad for being off topic.

Who cares if the N64 and Yoshi's Story isn't using real "sprites" via a proper "sprite engine" and instead it's using some flat polys or 2D assets in a different way? That's just a technicality. It can produce high quality 2D graphics for the standards of the time and that's what matters. The Jaguar would never be able to handle Yoshi's Story, no matter how hard it tried to stretch or spin it's sprites with it's powerful sprite engine. Any attempted port would have to be mangled. Would the N64 be able to run a good Super Burnout port though? Who knows? And who cares? There aren't any such games on the N64 because nobody cared about sprite scaling engines in frigging 1997. It was an obsolete tech that got surpassed by real 3D, years before the N64 got out. Maybe someone would do it as a fanmade project and make a port using flat polygons as 2D assets or something. But you wouldn't care because for you, it has to be "proper sprites" or else it doesn't count no matter how good the result would be.

So great, the Jaguar is better than all these machines when it comes to hardware sprite capabilities. Awesome. I bet it's better than the PS5 too since i highly doubt the PS5 has similar hardware support, even though it can surely produce way better results in different ways or via software. Because, you know, it's an infinitely more powerful machine and all that jazz that you don't care about, released in modern times and maybe it doesn't really need some obsolete sprite scaling capable silicon?

Better sprites handling doesn't equal better 2D graphics, especially during the 5th gen and later. That's what you can't understand all this time.
 
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Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
I've done this multiple times in the thread.
You are posting gifs and explaining their frame rates. I am talking different things, namely technical statements from the developers themselves.

Now, i know that most developers do not do this, but then you can turn to console SDK's to find the answers.
You either aren't reading it as you imply or are being selective in what you are reading to come to this conclusion.
I read all your posts. Its why i stated what i stated. Comparison gifs are a long way home from a GDC or SIGGRAPH paper (which is basically where i am heading at)
so in the best case scenario you are being disingenuous.
Not really. I ask for technical facts straight from the developer's mouth. Its why i read GDC/SIGGRAPH papers and development interviews to begin with. You know, actual developers that work with the hardware. That's the best source on tech facts.
Variation aside you have no idea what you're talking about, how hard to I have to downgrade my examples until you actually get how this works? Outside of what Ki does to show off, that arcade machine can't do anything that the Super Chase machine can do NOTHING. it can't spin the sprites based on angle at that speed, it can't do all the sprite tricks, it can't have the draw distance, it can't have allt he effects, and do what it can with objects and backgrounds, it can't do any of that because the machine doesn't have the capability to do so and when playing a Sprite based games, the latter is going to be more impressive, and it is.
I wouldn't believe an Atari Falcon could run Quake 2 esque levels, but here we are:


Thats a 030 with DSP.

The Mega Drive has impressive games, but even Sonic 1 is too much for the CD-I the bonus stage with the rotating blocks, the trippy background, the flashing, the CD-I cannot do any of that. When you look at some of the better space shooters they have ships doing all kinds of cool things, with many of them on screen, lasers everywhere, cool background and animation effects, waves and parallax in the background, same with the more impressive action games and platforms, and the CD-I can do none of it.
Considering the CD-I uses the 68070, a 68000 derivative, it may run a Dread port considering that runs on Atari ST and Amiga 500. That's halfway a Doom engine.

There aren't any such games on the N64 because nobody cared about sprite scaling engines in frigging 1997. It was an obsolete tech that got surpassed by real 3D, years before the N64 got out. Maybe someone would do it as a fanmade project and make a port using flat polygons as 2D assets or something. But you wouldn't care because for you, it has to be "proper sprites" or else it doesn't count no matter how good the result would be.
To be fair: The Sega H1 from 1995 did ran two of the last Super Scaler games - full of sprite based stuff. The Y Board was the creme the la creme with 3x 68000.
 
lol, guys just chill out. The Jag is a quirky and weird machine but for those that are open to some fun there is plenty to have: Tempest 2000, Defender 2000, Silent Doom, Super Burnout, Zool 2, Rayman, Dino Dudes, Cannon Fodder (one of the best versions), Wolfenstein 3D, AVP, Attack of the Mutant Penguins, Ultra Vortek, Breakout 2000, Missile Command 3D, Raiden, Skyhammer, Escape 2042, …., Rebooteroids, Kobayashi Maru, Gravity Mines, …, etc etc
 

nkarafo

Member
To be fair: The Sega H1 from 1995 did ran two of the last Super Scaler games - full of sprite based stuff. The Y Board was the creme the la creme with 3x 68000.
The Y-Board was great because in the late 80's very early 90's, the few 3D games that existed were too slow or had crappy frame rates. So, impressive sprite scaling at 60fps was still considered state of the art.

I wasn't aware about the H1. I thought the last sprite scaling games Sega made was in System 32, before Virtua Racing.

Either way, after Virtua Racing and (let alone) Daytona USA, no sprite scaling game left any impression whatsoever. I assume these two H1 games weren't exactly successful either.

In the home market (that was several years behind compared to arcades) sprite scaling games still made sense until around 1995, especially if they could be "arcade perfect", which was something previous consoles could never achieve. So it made sense for the Atari Jaguar, a console released in 1993, to be a powerful sprite scaling system. But after 1995, this type of graphics engine was not impressing anyone anymore, not even in console space. After the Playstation brought things like Ridge Racer at home and proved 3D was good enough to completely replace even the best kind of sprite scaling, it was over.

So it made no sense whatsoever for the N64 to waste resources for a sprite scaling engine, or hardware sprites, or whatever these older consoles/arcades had, after 1996. This was the 3D era. And even if you needed 2D graphics, for a platformer mostly, these consoles were capable enough to produce them via different techniques. There are 2D games in both the PS1 and N64 that look better and are more advanced than what the Jaguar could do after all. Did we really care if these images weren't "hardware sprites"? Did we care if some of the assets were flat polygons that looked like sprites? I didn't, i was too busy staring at my screen and being impressed with the 2D graphics that i was dreaming about some years before.
 
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Basically, the KI arcade can't do sprite scaling. Big whoop.

You're stubbornness on being ignorant and being dishonest is impressive, you basically just ignore what you don't want to believe even though you are wrong. I didn't say anything about only scaling, the KI machine can't do any game on the super chase hardware,, i said more than once that the KI arcade machine can't run ANY game that super chase hardware uses it's capabilities for, you KNOW that's what I said, and that includes games that DONT scale.

It's clear you have nothing of worth to discuss, all you're going to do is not address anything I say, and lie about what I posted, if you can't find value in yourself why should I? You are no longer worth even attempting to have discourse with your dishonesty has been consistent and it's clear nothing you say worth anything because you never intended to argue in good faith, I'll save my energy for people who actually know how to have a discussion without intentional omissions, paraphrasing deceptively (knowingly) and just dismissing what you want to dismiss.

There's no point in trying to dumb down things further especially when the issue isn't even that you don't understand, you're just completely dishonest about what's posted even though it's been explained to you multiple times the same way.

I'll just say that you are well aware of what I actually said, your quote here is the last time i pretend there's anything worth discussing with you about. Entirely. That's not a game I play.
 
Considering the CD-I uses the 68070, a 68000 derivative, it may run a Dread port considering that runs on Atari ST and Amiga 500. That's halfway a Doom engine.

The chip alone means nothing if the chip doesn't support it. CD-I can barely handle polygons at all unlike the machines you mention, which handle them at a very low FPS.

The CD-I actually has an FPS to use as an example, it's called atlantis, it's the most impressive attempt at a 3D style game and the machine is literally in pain trying to play it.

To be fair: The Sega H1 from 1995 did ran two of the last Super Scaler games - full of sprite based stuff. The Y Board was the creme the la creme with 3x 68000.

Also there were Konami and Taito machines with scaling past 1994 as well if not mistaken for the former.
 

Trunx81

Member
I always love these threads, so many interesting informations about my favorite time of gaming ❤️

You guys made me look for Jaguar games now on YouTube, and boy did they make crap back in the days. But I stumbled upon this game called “Native”. R-Type shooter, but it looks REALLY impressive. I mean, look at this:

A shame that the demo and home brew scene isn’t that active for the console, otherwise you could end your arguments quite easily.
 
I always love these threads, so many interesting informations about my favorite time of gaming ❤️

You guys made me look for Jaguar games now on YouTube, and boy did they make crap back in the days. But I stumbled upon this game called “Native”. R-Type shooter, but it looks REALLY impressive. I mean, look at this:

A shame that the demo and home brew scene isn’t that active for the console, otherwise you could end your arguments quite easily.
Well, the Jag scene is actually one of the most active. There are new games all the time.
 

Havoc2049

Member
N
I always love these threads, so many interesting informations about my favorite time of gaming ❤️

You guys made me look for Jaguar games now on YouTube, and boy did they make crap back in the days. But I stumbled upon this game called “Native”. R-Type shooter, but it looks REALLY impressive. I mean, look at this:

A shame that the demo and home brew scene isn’t that active for the console, otherwise you could end your arguments quite easily.
The Jaguar community was at the forefront of the console homebrew scene, going back to the late 90's and early 2000's, with games like Battlesphere by 4-Play/Scatologic and Skyhammer, Protector, Soccer Kid and Hyperforce by Songbird.

Here are a few recent releases:
 

theclaw135

Member
it's because the jag itself isn't a bad system, it just isn't worthy of whatever is going on in this thread

Maybe that guy™ is right, the Jag has technologically superior 2D processing capabilities over the Neo Geo?

It doesn't mean any 1990s consumer or game developer ever cared.
 
Can't waste time on anything when you don't even know what the thing is. That's the main problem when dealing with this.

The Jaguar community was at the forefront of the console homebrew scene, going back to the late 90's and early 2000's, with games like Battlesphere by 4-Play/Scatologic and Skyhammer, Protector, Soccer Kid and Hyperforce by Songbird.

Here are a few recent releases:

Some of the games you listed were actually unfinished releases, but yeah the homebrew scene is big and has been big for the Jaguar.

Issue is there's seems to be, outside of incomplete demos that never got finished, not too much COMPLETED 3D homebrew for the system, and several of the 2D homebrews don't seem to be too ambitious. There are exceptions but those are few and far between.

Many promising projects just never got finished, like that third person tomb raider clone. Of course it didn't look like the PS1 version but it was impressive for the jaguar I forgot what it was named but it had a little dungeon to run around in. There was a port of Racing Force being worked on too, which is a 2D game but it almost seems 3D like but that one no one could find. Seems that's lost to time.

It doesn't mean any 1990s consumer or game developer ever cared.

This isn't really relevant to the topic though. It's about the missed potential so that already acknowledges that developers never got the most out of it for 2D games. What was there was impressive but it's only a handful of games that ever got released.

The official released list of Jaguar games in general was only 67 games mostly Ataris fault for misleading developers on it's financial status and how long they could support the Jaguar. Personally, I'm surprised they even made it to early 1996 but on the other hand it also shows that Atari was wasting money on something that they objectively couldn't support so it makes me wonder why Sam did it.

Maybe Sam just didn't want to look bad if he dropped the Jaguar earlier but he didn't have the money for it so he should have refocused efforts on another plan to keep Atari alive instead of sinking his own ship, but he's not the only part of management that made some bonehead decisions at Atari.

But anyway, many developers pulled their games or ran from agreements once the reality was clear and this all happened in 1994. Only reason why 1995 had some good releases from 3P is because they either already had the games ready or they were in an agreement. Atari paid some good money for some half-assed games too if it could look like they were competing in 3D polygon graphics.

So sadly, we never really saw the most of what the Jaguar could do in 2D. Or even 3D with flat gouraud shaded polygons.
 
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