• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

So Sega put a scaling chip into the Sega CD, and never ported a single super scaler game to it

pramod

Banned
File this down as another of the many "WTF, Sega?" weird decisions in their history.

Instead, they made a ton of super scaler games for the 32X. Which didn't even utilize the scaling chip in the Sega CD.

Do any Sega historians/gurus know the reasoning behind this? Was it some technical limitation of the chip that made it bad for porting over games like Space Harrier, Outrun etc?

I guess there was one arcade scaling game ported over but not by Sega (Night Striker), and it was pixelly mess.
 
I think it was more down to SEGA Japan just thinking the games were already out on the Master System and MD and so didn't need to be ported. SEGA did look to port a Super Scaler game to the Mega CD but gave the job of porting AB III to CRI who made a pig's ear of it.


If anyone plays Cliffhanger, Batman Returns and SoulStar on the Mega CD you could see the Mega CD could have handled really good ports of OutRun, AB II, Space Harrier, Super Hang-On and GF 2. Not only would they be far better than the MD versions, having a arcade perfect soundtrack of Outrun in 1992/3 would have been a big deal.

Sadly SEGA Japan didn't really bother much at all with the Mega CD and it was left to SEGA America to really push and make the system worth owning with great hype and at the start having games like Batman Return which looked and played like an Arcade game in your home at the time, not even the Neo Geo could support that games rotation at a hardware level and you also had scaling everywhere




 
Last edited:

nush

Member
I think it was more down to SEGA Japan just thinking the games were already out on the Master System and MD and so didn't need to be ported. SEGA did look to port a Super Scaler game to the Mega CD but gave the job of porting AB III to CRI who made a pig's ear of it.

That's what I think too, it was a next gen system and at the time the masses they were selling to would not have been interested in an old port when they were being sold FMV as the future. One interesting side note is that Power Drift that was supposed to come out on the base Megadrive was reportedly moved to the Mega CD and still did not get released.

The Mega CD was originally designed to be Sega's answer to the PC Engine CD Rom, except it was never actually used that way. NEC actually used their CD Rom to improve on some HU Card titles like R Type and Hellfire.

CRI are not always the actual developer of the games with their label on, Sega used them to put out games they made that were a bit shit but would still sell in some cases.
 
That's what I think too, it was a next gen system and at the time the masses they were selling to would not have been interested in an old port when they were being sold FMV as the future. One interesting side note is that Power Drift that was supposed to come out on the base Megadrive was reportedly moved to the Mega CD and still did not get released.

The Mega CD was originally designed to be Sega's answer to the PC Engine CD Rom, except it was never actually used that way. NEC actually used their CD Rom to improve on some HU Card titles like R Type and Hellfire.

CRI are not always the actual developer of the games with their label on, Sega used them to put out games they made that were a bit shit but would still sell in some cases.
I don't think SEGA Japan were that big on FMV at the start, that was more for Wolfteam and then SEGA America. I think SOJ were more looking to make RPG's for the Mega CD. Its kind of a shame SOJ never looked to use the Mega CD to improve MD titles. You could have had even better versions of Strider, Moonwalker and Ghouls N Ghosts on the Mega CD with all of the Arcade speech's and Arcade perfect music.

CRI did make AB III on the Mega CD and wasn't just SEGA looking to hide behind them. CRI make a lot of crap for other systems. They were so hit and miss sometimes they would do amazing things like with VO 1 and 2 on the Saturn and DC and then utter crap like AB III on the Mega CD and FM Towns
 
Last edited:

Alexios

Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Maybe it just wasn't good enough? I don't think most CD games push out as many sprites as their arcade stuff. Or as fast. They look closer to something like Ayrton Senna's Super Monaco GP II on Genesis than the arcade original to me. But it does have some cool and smooth stuff like Thunderhawk.


Crazy and shitty they didn't have more sprite scaling based games on Saturn even though, it could probably be on par with (or top with some use of 3D and stuff) their arcade stuff and they'd have fared and aged much better than some 3D stuff.
 
Last edited:

Trunx81

Member
Just watched the GameSack video with all SegaCD games and boy is it hard to justify the price for this addon with how poor many ports are. No wonder Nintendo skipped the SNES CD aka PlayStation. Sure there are some amazing titles that profit from the larger storage and the extra hardware power, but remember the cost the MegaCD had in the 90s. No one of my friends had it, not even the rich kid who owned everything. To bad, because the possibilities where great and I’m sure with capable developers it could have been a hit.
 

dave_d

Member
I just wished they used the sound chip in it more. I guess it was a RF5C164, not sure how good it was but from what I remember most games used a combination of Redbook and Genesis(YM2612) audio.
 

Neff

Member
Instead, they made a ton of super scaler games for the 32X. Which didn't even utilize the scaling chip in the Sega CD.

There's a reason. The Sega CD wasn't so great at scaling. It was from 1991 after all.

The 32X, released in '94, was pretty good at scaling.

Just watched the GameSack video with all SegaCD games and boy is it hard to justify the price for this addon with how poor many ports are.

Snatcher in English alone was worth it.
 
Last edited:

PhaseJump

Banned
Who knows why they didn't port? There were probably bandwidth or timing issues that needed to be sorted while pulling data from the CD.

Meanwhile, nobody bought the platform and it was marketed as that stupid thing that ran Sewer Shark.
 

Futaleufu

Member
That Batman game runs kind of slow, if that's the Sega CD at its best I don't see much chances for decent ports of fast arcade scaler games.
 
Last edited:

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
I think it was more down to SEGA Japan just thinking the games were already out on the Master System and MD and so didn't need to be ported. SEGA did look to port a Super Scaler game to the Mega CD but gave the job of porting AB III to CRI who made a pig's ear of it.


If anyone plays Cliffhanger, Batman Returns and SoulStar on the Mega CD you could see the Mega CD could have handled really good ports of OutRun, AB II, Space Harrier, Super Hang-On and GF 2. Not only would they be far better than the MD versions, having a arcade perfect soundtrack of Outrun in 1992/3 would have been a big deal.

Sadly SEGA Japan didn't really bother much at all with the Mega CD and it was left to SEGA America to really push and make the system worth owning with great hype and at the start having games like Batman Return which looked and played like an Arcade game in your home at the time, not even the Neo Geo could support that games rotation at a hardware level and you also had scaling everywhere





The playstation 1 ran metal slug 1 worse then then neogeo
 

cireza

Member
I personally love Batman & Robin on Mega-CD, the game is absolutely stunning. It scales so much stuff it is super impressive. Jaguar is also a great example of scaling a LOT of things at once.



Same developers as other games using scaling (Core Design, awesome European developer).

Just watched the GameSack video with all SegaCD games and boy is it hard to justify the price for this addon with how poor many ports are.
I own the add-on and can tell you it is one of my favorite platform ever. Even if some ports did not add much stuff, there was still a ton a games that were largely better on SEGA-CD, and the exclusive stuff was absolutely unthinkable on cartridge consoles. And I am not talking about FMV. I am talking about games like Snatcher or Lunar Eternal Blue. Also SEGA-CD was an add-on meant to offer a premium sound experience, and a lot of games had incredible production value in this topic (both Ecco games, Pitfall, Shining Force CD, Sonic CD, Terminator, Lords of Thunder, both Lunar games etc...).
 
The playstation 1 ran metal slug 1 worse then then neogeo
What's that got to do with this?

Metal Slug was a game with basically no scaling or rotation effects and looked to use tons on animation and so CD systems with limited RAM would have issues.
Batman Returns looks to use Hardware rotation which the Neo Geo hardware didn't support.
 

Spukc

always chasing the next thrill
What's that got to do with this?

Metal Slug was a game with basically no scaling or rotation effects and looked to use tons on animation and so CD systems with limited RAM would have issues.
Batman Returns looks to use Hardware rotation which the Neo Geo hardware didn't support.
pokemon red came out 2 years later in the states
 
Last edited:
That Batman game runs kind of slow, if that's the Sega CD at its best I don't see much chances for decent ports of fast arcade scaler games.
This is the early 90's. Star Fox frame rate is worst on the SNES (never mind Stunt Racer FX) and its held up as a classic and VR on the Mega Drive didn't run any better.
You play Batman Returns on the Mega CD or the 3D sections of Cliffhanger and they look far better than Outrun on the Mega Drive and Soulstar looks way better than the GF running on the Mega Drive



 

UnNamed

Banned
I think it's matter of "time" .

Sega could do a collection of games on MegaCD, three or four games "Remastered" on Mea CD, but they probably thought that at the time MCD and MD overlapped each other in terms of market.

Collection of games wasn't a thing back in the day, maybe only Atari did I'd before Sega.

Eventually they did it with Sega Ages only few year later.
 
I own the add-on and can tell you it is one of my favorite platform ever. Even if some ports did not add much stuff, there was still a ton a games that were largely better on SEGA-CD, and the exclusive stuff was absolutely unthinkable on cartridge consoles. And I am not talking about FMV. I am talking about games like Snatcher or Lunar Eternal Blue. Also SEGA-CD was an add-on meant to offer a premium sound experience, and a lot of games had incredible production value in this topic (both Ecco games, Pitfall, Shining Force CD, Sonic CD, Terminator, Lords of Thunder, both Lunar games etc...).

After Saturn, it's my 2nd fav system. I mainly love the system for the Lunar's (the best RPG's ever) and Batman Returns (for me the best 16 bit racer) but I also really loved Wing Commander, Rise of the Dragon on it along with Dracula Unleased and Switch You right about the sound too, the better music and better sampled sound effects were a big step up over the MD. Fifa and Pitfall make fantastic use of the PCM chip with stunning soundeffects so much better than what the MD could do, Ecco is so much better than MD version thanks to the music and the real crowd chants just add so much to best football game ever made in Sensible Soccer

If only SEGA Japan put its top consumer teams on the unit to port its Arcade games and used the ASIC chip
 

Ozzie666

Member
Was there actually any really good examples of Sega Japan using scaling on the Sega CD? I thought I watched a video recently, where they mentioned a distinct lack of using the ASIC chip, with Core Design being the most frequent and best user of scaling.

Outrun and Power drift would have been nice additions, best ports at the time.
 
Last edited:

pramod

Banned
Was there actually any really good examples of Sega Japan using scaling on the Sega CD? I thought I watched a video recently, where they mentioned a distinct lack of using the ASIC chip, with Core Design being the most frequent and best user of scaling.

None that I can think of, besides from the 3D bonus scenes in Sonic CD.
There was the Afterburner 3 "port" which was actually more like a port of G-Loc, and looked like total ass. It was made by CRI and not Sega though.
 

cireza

Member
Night Striker
There is a Mega-CD port (that I own) with two soundtracks available. Of course, anyone will tell you that it looks like ass. But I personally really enjoy the game and play it very often. Despite the stretched resolution, it runs super smooth. I also play on CRT, which helps a lot with the visuals in this case.

Taito also ported Ninja Warriors, and again, this is a game I really like on Mega-CD and play very often.
 

Bankai

Member


Fantastic channel and video

game-sack.gif


Because of this vid I saw the 3D scaling stages of Three Ninja's Strike Back and damn..! That looked good!

Never knew that game had impressive MegaCD stuff in it.
 

PhaseJump

Banned
Do any Sega historians/gurus know the reasoning behind this?

If you ask this question too broadly about Sega on most internet gaming forums. Team Andromdea is almost guaranteed to show up. He will argue the technical specs with people that actually produce software or mods for the old hardware, and then flood topics with pages of melodramtic headcanon around what really happened. He's the biggest source of garbage information relating to Sega on the planet.

If only SEGA Japan put its top consumer teams on the unit to port its Arcade games and used the ASIC chip

conspiracy-theory.gif
 

Drew1440

Member
Doesn't the Sega 32X have a really good soundchip that was completely unused?

Then again looking at the complete Mega-drive, there's a lot of processors to utilize:
The 68000 and the z80 in the Megadrive along with the VDP and sound,
The 68000 in the MegaCD with its own VDP,
And the dual SH2's in the 32X, plus it's VDP and soundchip.

It was probably too much processors for the developers to juggle around.
 
Those games were really old by that time.

Sega cd was like the PC engine cd. There was a lot it could bring to the table for traditional games ( think castlevania rondo ) but the going hotness was FMV so investment dollars went there.
It could have been great and it should have been great but alas...
 

RAIDEN1

Member
For FMV the Sega CD was NOT fit for purpose it is plain to see....just look at Rebel Assault...Sega should have said to the game-developers, "hey we know it looks hideous the video..so avoid it.." ...and the irony is Sega didn't have too much faith in their own-add-on, yet the likes of Core-Design did and showed what it could do....if you could get Mortal Kombat CD on there, then why not Super Street fighter 2....3DO managed to get it so why not Sega...and as add-ons go it was quite-successful ...certainly compared to the mushroom that imploded Sega- a.k.a the 32x
 
The answer to this question is the same when people ask similar odd questions about the 32X, and the answers so far have also once again forgotten the problem. The Sega CD and 32X were both imprisoned by Genesis hardware. There's only so much you can add that can get around the limitation of the stock hardware, Sega learned this with the genesis as Nintendo did for the NES, granted in Nintendo's case they didn't have to worry about the competition catching up.

This is also why FMV is notoriously bad on the Sega CD and one of the reasons why some people dislike those games because they never played good or proper versions of several of those FMV ports unless they had a 3DO, and PSX copies of some of those games, or played at an arcade or PC. You were getting much worse than what was at that time the standard VCR you could get for cheap at a local video store by a wide margin and not just in video quality but color display, with heavy artifacting.

Scaling was in the Sega CD but look at how some of the Genesis or Sega CD scaling ports turned out. Tons of missing objects because it can't draw in enough sprites at the right speed. A lot of detail missing so most ground or wall tiles are just flat single-colors rectangles that move scale-in fast to create the illusion of speed where several of the arcade games had that covered up with something else.

Look at the port of Power Drift on the PC Engine, the Sega CD might do that slightly better but with the weaknesses of the Mega Drive you wouldn't see a substantial boost other than the speed of the sprite scaling itself, for whatever sprites could be scaled since they would be a limit to how many sprites you could use. Same with rotation, Sega CD adds the capability but it's still limited and you have to cut frames when doing so.

if you could get Mortal Kombat CD on there, then why not Super Street fighter 2....3DO managed to get it so why not Sega...and as add-ons go it was quite-successful ...certainly compared to the mushroom that imploded Sega- a.k.a the 32x
This is like saying why not port Virtua Racing on the Sega CD because BC racers is on there. The 3DO is significantly more powerful than the Sega Genesis, CD, and 32X combined. Not to mention that 3Do didn't get Super Street Fighter II, it got Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo which was a whole other animal. I do beleive however the Sega CD could handle a decent though not perfect port of the original Super Street Fighter 2, likely a bit better than the SNES version.

As for the 32X, the add-on was only a failure in that Sega killed it early. It was selling 3x faster than the Sega CD. If anything they should have killed the Sega CD when the 32X came out and focused all those CD resources on the 32X instead. It could have easily sold a couple million or more end of life.

No wonder Nintendo skipped the SNES CD aka PlayStation.

That deal was already falling apart before it was clear the Sega CD wasn't going anywhere.

Doesn't the Sega 32X have a really good soundchip that was completely unused?

Then again looking at the complete Mega-drive, there's a lot of processors to utilize:
The 68000 and the z80 in the Megadrive along with the VDP and sound,
The 68000 in the MegaCD with its own VDP,
And the dual SH2's in the 32X, plus it's VDP and soundchip.

It was probably too much processors for the developers to juggle around.

Quite a few 32X games use it, VF, Cosmic Carnage and others.

Metal Slug was a game with basically no scaling or rotation effects and looked to use tons on animation and so CD systems with limited RAM would have issues.

Some people here will fight you tooth and nail for this fact even with evidence from experience. There were several systems more capable in 2D but they'll argue that RAM advantage having more sprite animations somehow overshadows rotation and scaling effects, or any other Sprite tricks


Sega cd was like the PC engine cd.

NEC relied on the PC Engine CD to stay in the market and actually enhanced games with the CD. There wasn't that much FMV on it outside cutscenes which is no different than PSX games. They even released 2 other variations of it to push for better improvements the exact opposite with Sega's strategy with it.
 

RAIDEN1

Member
It will probably always remain a mystery why Sega would make it a point to get Final Fight CD on the the Sega CD, when it wasn't exactly a HIGHLY sought after game, and when you had your very own Final Fight beater in Streets of Rage, why not give that the proper CD treatment....not as if Final fight was going to be the system seller ie a 1989 game, that had been and gone and had its time in the sun, when really all the rage was all things Streetfighter 2...
 
It will probably always remain a mystery why Sega would make it a point to get Final Fight CD on the the Sega CD, when it wasn't exactly a HIGHLY sought after game, and when you had your very own Final Fight beater in Streets of Rage, why not give that the proper CD treatment....not as if Final fight was going to be the system seller ie a 1989 game, that had been and gone and had its time in the sun, when really all the rage was all things Streetfighter 2...

Final Fight was much bigger than Street of Rage, that's an example of fans making a game seem more successful than it was. Final Fight 1 and 2 sold over 1 million copies on the SNES, the first more so. Street of Rage while for many people the better game didn't have that kind of popularity in terms of copies sold.

But that was an issue with most of Sega's first party output. They needed to push Street of Rage harder in coverage and marketing but they seemed to rotate their resources based on the title, a very strange strategy.

Anyway, with such high sales Final Fight CD made sense. Final Fight 2 came out the same year after the best-selling Final Fight 1 and was already off to a great start, and Sega got an enhanced version of the first game with features missing form the SNES ported included with CD audio and other welcome changes. Sega probably published it (they didn't make the port) because they though it could bring sales to the Sega CD which a Street of Rage likely would not have.

Of course that didn't work anyway but when you think about it from Sega's perspective it makes sense.
 

nkarafo

Member
if the PSX had more ram a 2X drive was more than enough. PSX has one of the better CD drives on the market. Metal Slug 1 doesn't need higher speeds if the ram requirement is met.
How much RAM would that be? Even the Saturn version with the +1MB expansion wasn't enough, that port still suffered. We are talking about Metal Slug 1 but something like Metal Slug 3 is 4x larger.

Neo-Geo CD had, what, 7MB? And even that wasn't enough for some ports AFAIK.

ROM based consoles/arcades don't need nearly as much RAM since they can shuffle data in and out of it at a rapid pace. That's why ROMs > CDs, any day.
 
How much RAM would that be? Even the Saturn version with the +1MB expansion wasn't enough, that port still suffered. We are talking about Metal Slug 1 but something like Metal Slug 3 is 4x larger.

Neo-Geo CD had, what, 7MB? And even that wasn't enough for some ports AFAIK.

ROM based consoles/arcades don't need nearly as much RAM since they can shuffle data in and out of it at a rapid pace. That's why ROMs > CDs, any day.

Neo-Geo CD had a 1X drive however, which made it incredibly hard to read the sprite animations that were there. If the PSX had 7MB of ram MS1 would have likely not been a problem since it's pretty straight forward. For something like Metal Slug 3 or some other games with close to as impressive animations and effects at double MS3's frame rate, you would likely need a 4X drive.

That is where the Pippin could have been useful if Apple had a game plan and a good marketing strategy, or Bandai, but neither did.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom