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Schreier's next hit piece due to drop - Jaffe hopes it is fair and not an excuse to shit talk!!

So wouldn't the right answer be for someone else to step up and expose the other industries, instead of putting the onus and blame on Schreier? He is just one man, not a messiah. It sounds like some people would rather have it be that he never revealed this information in the first place and keep up the status quo. If entire work systems are broken themselves, why is he getting the blame for exposing a broken system? Should the broken system itself not get the blame?

Some here are even saying that they experience crunch in their field, but are getting upset with this one man instead of their industry. It sort of reminds me of the mentality of "I've had it bad, so you should to" which is why things never change, because this work the person has been in for years and put blood sweat and tears in to reach a better position, has now assimilated them to the very culture they've hated all that time. It's a bit diabolical of companies to do this just to keep the wheel the way it is and none are the wiser.



Um...14 out of 20 is about 70% man. Out of that specific number and that specific sentence, he wasn't wrong. Are you sure you didn't misread his quote? Because it sounds like he was possibly wrong with what he said afterwards. I see what you're saying with his wording though, he apparently needs to make it way more clear of employee titles and numbers. I think his larger message is fine though. I don't think the guy is a flawless reporter, he can do better. But I give him credit for what he's enlightened people to so far.

You don’t get it. You can’t just hire people for crunch times and run an effective business. If you hire enough people for the busy time you are over staffed during slow times and have people without work to do. If you hire just for crunch times, things slip through the cracks because contractors don’t have the same insight as employees. They may miss things or be too slow.
 

kuncol02

Banned


Here you go. Jason exposed.

and it's funny that the guy works for bloomberg and he doesn't understand basic economy at all. Comparing salaries in Poland with salaries in California :messenger_tears_of_joy:

Reading is not that hard skill.
"$12-$15/hour if they're lucky; MUCH LESS IN POLAND"
Point of all that should be easy to understand. QA is paid around minimum wage, are overworked to death (60h weakly is unsustainable for anyone) and are blamed for things that don't depend on them at all. They would be better financially if they would be working in McDonald.
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
You don’t get it. You can’t just hire people for crunch times and run an effective business. If you hire enough people for the busy time you are over staffed during slow times and have people without work to do. If you hire just for crunch times, things slip through the cracks because contractors don’t have the same insight as employees. They may miss things or be too slow.
Appreciate the explanation. So there's absolutely no viable way to fix this issue? Nothing anyone has tried or thought of?
 

kuncol02

Banned
You don’t get it. You can’t just hire people for crunch times and run an effective business. If you hire enough people for the busy time you are over staffed during slow times and have people without work to do. If you hire just for crunch times, things slip through the cracks because contractors don’t have the same insight as employees. They may miss things or be too slow.
Months of crunch every time game is shipped is not effective bussiness. It's simply bad project planning.
 

Bragr

Banned
He's the kind of guy who interviews one person on a 200 person team, and if that one person says something bad, the whole studio is the fucking devil.
 

harmny

Banned
Reading is not that hard skill.
"$12-$15/hour if they're lucky; MUCH LESS IN POLAND"
Point of all that should be easy to understand. QA is paid around minimum wage, are overworked to death (60h weakly is unsustainable for anyone) and are blamed for things that don't depend on them at all. They would be better financially if they would be working in McDonald.

Look here guys. Another one that doesn't understand basic economy. Much less in Poland doesn't mean anything at all.

If reading is not that hard of a skill why don't you read the actual CDPR QA guy's response to jason's stupid tweet
 

Topher

Gold Member
Um...14 out of 20 is about 70% man. Out of that specific number and that specific sentence, he wasn't wrong. Are you sure you didn't misread his quote? Because it sounds like he was possibly wrong with what he said afterwards. I see what you're saying with his wording though, he apparently needs to make it way more clear of employee titles and numbers. I think his larger message is fine though. I don't think the guy is a flawless reporter, he can do better. But I give him credit for what he's enlightened people to so far.

I wasn't arguing that his math was wrong, just that he was inflating the significance of 14 people leaving the studio.
 
Appreciate the explanation. So there's absolutely no viable way to fix this issue? Nothing anyone has tried or thought of?
Do you think crunch can be "fixed"? It's a million year old problem. This was happening when they built the pyramids and made the scribes stay late to finish their work. Bosses will always want more out of their employees. Even when you legislate against it, life finds a way.

I'm mostly interested in how Jason, et al failed to notify anybody about the last gen performance on Cyberpunk 2077. His job is as a consumer journalists, no? Why did he not report on that? Why did none of his friends even try to get that info? They were happy to hype this product that they either (1) did not know how it performed or (2) knew it ran like crap and purposefully hid it because they are Access Journalist cowards.

Seriously, has anyone asked Jason et al why nobody looked into this most basic question? Jason will interview the QA programmer but doesn't pay attention to how the game is going to run on release?

That's the thing, they will write about crunch because it softens the heart of the faux socialists that are their peers, they will write about Tweets and social media drama because it gets clicks, but when it comes to actual investigative consumer journalism, they are nowhere to be found. How many millions of people were caught off-guard, let down entirely by these people who should have been looking out for them? They are not doing their job.
 
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Appreciate the explanation. So there's absolutely no viable way to fix this issue? Nothing anyone has tried or thought of?
I’m sure that there are ways to improve it. The best things that I’ve seen are having strong teams from top to bottom. The problem is that you basically need a team of alphas that will work together without being selfish. You need to be able to cut the dead weight. I’ve personally managed teams where the best thing I did was cut headcounts and give more work to the best performers and replaced the remaining weak links. We were able to get rid of mist crunch save for when we had to do carve outs for potential business unit sales.
Months of crunch every time game is shipped is not effective bussiness. It's simply bad project planning.

I can’t speak for the gaming industry, but I can tell you that even with the least amount of crunch in my life we always had months of crunch because I work in SEC filing and it’s the nature of the beast. I will say that none of the major side projects that I worked on, whether implementing ERP, consolidations, treasury, or new segregation of duties controls were without crunch. It’s inherent to having deadlines when you have massive projects.
 

kuncol02

Banned
I’m sure that there are ways to improve it. The best things that I’ve seen are having strong teams from top to bottom. The problem is that you basically need a team of alphas that will work together without being selfish. You need to be able to cut the dead weight. I’ve personally managed teams where the best thing I did was cut headcounts and give more work to the best performers and replaced the remaining weak links. We were able to get rid of mist crunch save for when we had to do carve outs for potential business unit sales.


I can’t speak for the gaming industry, but I can tell you that even with the least amount of crunch in my life we always had months of crunch because I work in SEC filing and it’s the nature of the beast. I will say that none of the major side projects that I worked on, whether implementing ERP, consolidations, treasury, or new segregation of duties controls were without crunch. It’s inherent to having deadlines when you have massive projects.
9 years of working as software developer. Never ever crunched in my life, but we make sure to have realistic deadlines in our team. Work without crunch is possible.
 

FUBARx89

Member
Ahh yes, Schrier, the social justice warrior who posted this in response to Michael Jordan donating 100mil to BLM.

Then deleted it and blocked anyone who brought it up after he got told he's a bell end for it.
BlqZmja.jpg
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Appreciate the explanation. So there's absolutely no viable way to fix this issue? Nothing anyone has tried or thought of?
where there are investors there are deadlines. Its like that in everything. Scope vs (budget,skill ,time). the main issue is SCOPE .. it is never ever set in stone. it creeps along .. people want new things, they want to change things constantly, but they also never ever want to push out the time to compensate .
 
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9 years of working as software developer. Never ever crunched in my life, but we make sure to have realistic deadlines in our team. Work without crunch is possible.

It sure isn’t in my field and I’ve been in it for more than a decade with different companies that have great public reputations.
 
where there is investors there are deadlines. Its like that in everything. Scope vs (budget,skill ,time). the main issue is SCOPE .. it is never ever set in stone. it creeps along .. people want new things, they want to change things constantly, but they also never ever want to push out the time to compensate .

This is true. Also, it’s amazing how things can change almost instantaneously. The guy who works on our Annual Report told me that the CEO of our company was good with the layout for weeks and then changed his mind a couple of days before press. The dude had to cut out a whole page in a day. It may not sound like much, but if you’ve ever worked on an Annual Report, that’s a huge deal.
 

Kenpachii

Member
Appreciate the explanation. So there's absolutely no viable way to fix this issue? Nothing anyone has tried or thought of?

Its easy to fix.

The reason its not fixed in industry's is because it brings more money in the pocket for the CEO's of those company's and that's the end of it.

The reason some people here or in the industry don't like people like jason or anybody else to dig the dirt up, because it offends them greatly as they are grown up in a culture that working to death is some meta kind of a thing that makes there dick big. while loads of people and society in general suffers under it heavily.

These people always have the same argument. "but everybody does it, why not pick that other industry", or "everything needs to change, so why pick one thing out of it and start a shit show". it's just laughable at this point.
 
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Its easy to fix.

The reason its not fixed in industry's is because it brings more money in the pocket for the CEO's of those company's and that's the end of it.

The reason some people here or in the industry don't like jason or anybody else to dig the dirt up, because it offends them greatly as they are grown up in a culture that working to death is some meta kind of a thing that makes there dick big. while loads of people and society in general suffers under it heavily.

Sure Jan GIF
 
J

JeremyEtcetera

Unconfirmed Member
Do you think crunch can be "fixed"? It's a million year old problem. This was happening when they built the pyramids and made the scribes stay late to finish their work. Bosses will always want more out of their employees. Even when you legislate against it, life finds a way.

I'm mostly interested in how Jason, et al failed to notify anybody about the last gen performance on Cyberpunk 2077. His job is as a consumer journalists, no? Why did he not report on that? Why did none of his friends even try to get that info? They were happy to hype this product that they either (1) did not know how it performed or (2) knew it ran like crap and purposefully hid it because they are Access Journalist cowards.

Seriously, has anyone asked Jason et al why nobody looked into this most basic question? Jason will interview the QA programmer but doesn't pay attention to how the game is going to run on release?

That's the thing, they will write about crunch because it softens the heart of the faux socialists that are their peers, they will write about Tweets and social media drama because it gets clicks, but when it comes to actual investigative consumer journalism, they are nowhere to be found. How many millions of people were caught off-guard, let down entirely by these people who should have been looking out for them? They are not doing their job.
Not trying to find ways to improve it because it's already existed for thousands of years sounds like how people view certain religions. Again I'm not sure that's the best way to approach the situation.

Regarding Cyberpunk, up until recently CD Projekt was a beloved and trusted developer with a seemingly great business ethic. There would have been no reason to suspect them of wrongdoings beforehand and try to investigate. On the other hand, the big 3(EA, Activision, Ubisoft) constantly have negative news and rumors coming out of their buildings. If I was in his position, I would have chosen the latter and I would have regretted the former. I can't retroactively time travel and know that Cyberpunk would have been the giant mess that it is today. It would have made for great viewership if Schreier knew back then, and he most likely would have done it. Again this just shows he's not perfect. I don't know why this site is putting him on such a level/pedestal. He's just a guy finding and revealing information, not the world's greatest detective.
 

RoboFu

One of the green rats
Its easy to fix.

The reason its not fixed in industry's is because it brings more money in the pocket for the CEO's of those company's and that's the end of it.

The reason some people here or in the industry don't like people like jason or anybody else to dig the dirt up, because it offends them greatly as they are grown up in a culture that working to death is some meta kind of a thing that makes there dick big. while loads of people and society in general suffers under it heavily.

lol just that you think its all about CEOs tells me you have no idea.
 

ethomaz

Banned
Actually David just created buzz words.
Where is the story?

We could had wait the article dropped first to know what is it about.
 
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Papacheeks

Banned
So wouldn't the right answer be for someone else to step up and expose the other industries, instead of putting the onus and blame on Schreier? He is just one man, not a messiah. It sounds like some people would rather have it be that he never revealed this information in the first place and keep up the status quo. If entire work systems are broken themselves, why is he getting the blame for exposing a broken system? Should the broken system itself not get the blame?

Some here are even saying that they experience crunch in their field, but are getting upset with this one man instead of their industry. It sort of reminds me of the mentality of "I've had it bad, so you should to" which is why things never change, because this work the person has been in for years and put blood sweat and tears in to reach a better position, has now assimilated them to the very culture they've hated all that time. It's a bit diabolical of companies to do this just to keep the wheel the way it is and none are the wiser.



Um...14 out of 20 is about 70% man. Out of that specific number and that specific sentence, he wasn't wrong. Are you sure you didn't misread his quote? Because it sounds like he was possibly wrong with what he said afterwards. I see what you're saying with his wording though, he apparently needs to make it way more clear of employee titles and numbers. I think his larger message is fine though. I don't think the guy is a flawless reporter, he can do better. But I give him credit for what he's enlightened people to so far.

Jason has not been the only one to talk or bring these things up. It has been a point of contention since even the PS2 days. And during PS3 lots of articles and news outlets exposed through interviews with ex-employee's . The part of the system that is the root cause of this is wallstreet and traded company's. Alot of work is done on a studio level for the most part of accommodate workers through pay, work/life balance initiatives. But to make products for companies that are either publicly traded, or have main investors calling a lof of the shots, your going to have tension which leads to pressure to get said products done in a timely fassion. As in sooner rather than later.

Which usually the studio if run by great people which I believe Cory, Neil 100% are they will have sitdowns with said higher ups to discuss realistic goals and if said projects needs to be delayed. Neil and cory are the people who literally fight to give their teams more time so they dont get burned out.

Video game projects are a fickle beast, studios like Insomniac show how efficient they are. But I would argue when people compare them to another studio, it's sometimes not applicable. Because that other said studio has tons of different variables, what engine are they using, what kind of game, is there mo-cap/facial capture etc. Like what do you think will add more time to a NINTENDO GAME? The answer is cutscenes, dialogue ect.

The industry isn't perfect for sure, and when company ceo's like Kotick are asshats and under pay or dont pay and treat people fairly they should literally got to court and then jail. Too me people wrongfully being unpaid or underpaid should be the main thing I would think that would be brought up. And to me Jason does a poor job of listening to people like Neil or Cory or Jaffe who literally started at the bottom and worked their way into more senior positions. Corey was a designer for god of war 2 and worked before that on god of war he was lead animator. DO you know how many hours a animator will put in? Go look at his god of war 2 interview where he looks like he isn't even awake.

9 years of working as software developer. Never ever crunched in my life, but we make sure to have realistic deadlines in our team. Work without crunch is possible.

Totally agree, but it also depends on the project and other variables. Software development has less variables than a video game. Even creating game engines it's hard, and more than likely there is some crunch, but I would assume the deadlines are all internally set and realistic because there's more of a path laid out in what components are needed.

There's more of a blueprint. Video games you are literally building everything from pictures of art and going off from there in how assets interact with that said built art/level. Then add in all the systems running that take care of AI, PHYSICS ect. There's a ton. Why do companies like adobe make shit look easy when developing their versions each year? Because they dont have to rebuilt the whole sink. Just parts of it in small parts at a time.

GAmes sometimes dont even run or have the ability to do a complete playthrough until final 6 months. Thats how complex big budget games are. Even indie games if theres lots going on, and its a small team. You bet up on lead up there is some form of crunch. It's unavoidable.

Not saying that people crunching for months on end is good and should continue, just that sometimes thats what happens. And you could chalk is up to bad management or bad project organization. But when building from scratch it takes so much time.
 
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Kenpachii

Member
lol just that you think its all about CEOs tells me you have no idea.

It's about higher ups, exploiting there work force for maximum gain. If you don't see this that's on you.

I already laid it out earlier. I’m not going to repeat myself when you provided no solution to the problem.

The solution is simple. It's called planning.

GTA 5 takes 1000 people 6 years of development.

U want to make a gta 6 called cyberpunk a next gen gta 5 and plan on hiring 800 people, and do it in 4 years, while having barely any experience with GTA kind of games scope development.

Would that generate issue's? there you go.

These company's cut corners everywhere they can, for maximum gains and they do it on the back of there employee's and get away with it easily in some cultures because there is no check on them. Then it gets even more funny when people worship this behavior and eventually they entrap themselves in such a shit fest of exploitation that they are working 100 hours a week for a company and actually think they should be proud of it beacuse they are worker of the month and now everybody that doesn't do just that is seen as slacking and up for replacement whenever cuts have to be made so they become the biggest cheerleaders just to gain favor with there employee and welcome to garbo culture.

In the manwhile there kids don't even know who there daddy is because he just spend the next half year not seeing his kid ever again. Its even more fun when mommy also works in that environment. gotta be funny to see how fucked up those kids will end up when they grow up, oh just look at twitter there you go.

Anybody that says crunch isn't fixable, is just kidding themselves and simple can't see it because they are to fucking engrained in that shit tier culture and even will activily hate on change because "i also had to do that to get where i am so should you". because its somekind of honour badge to them at this point. rofl.

And that all for a piece of software thats meaningless imagine that.

I dont know who snyder is, and he could be the biggest grifter in the industry, but i agree with his ideology of putting those shit tier company's on full blown display for anybody to see how shit there cultures have become when u let them unchecked.
 
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Oh man Jaffe is so in the know, be sure to like and subscribe his YouTube gaming channel and follow him on Twitter, you disgusting racists!
 

Alandring

Member
I couldn’t disagree more. He’s dangerous. He gives people enough information to be outraged yet they don’t really understand the nature of the industry enough to have the proper context. At least that’s my perspective on crunch. The other stuff, I take less issue with.
First, Schreier's work isn't only about crunch. In its book, he also talks about Shovel Knight, Stardew Valley or even about how wonderful CD Projekt is as developer for its work on The Witcher 3 (yeah, this content didn't aged well...). About Bioware, he also has multiple very interesting insights, not only about crunch.

Secondly, Red Dead Redemption II and The Last of Us Part II were two huge successes. I don't think Jason Schreier's reports affect game sales, and I don't really see the problem to learn how those studio works. It doesn't mean that crunch is always bad, but I think informations are always useful, especially if they don't affect game sales.
 
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ThatGamingDude

I am a virgin
I already laid it out earlier. I’m not going to repeat myself when you provided no solution to the problem.
Long while we considered child labor completely acceptable due to crunching dead lines too

A common rebuttal was "It's the nature of [PRODUCT]'s industry."

Fact of the matter is setting appropriate dead lines with yourselves and others, and good project management is key (Duh)

In general, industries should adjust and not over promise to their customers, and when they do, not to have their employees cover their asses so they keep a phat bonus working the same amount of hours, while the employees work over time

"Sure, you can build Rome in a day, but it's going to cost you more money and labor."
 

godhandiscen

There are millions of whiny 5-year olds on Earth, and I AM THEIR KING.
Reading is not that hard skill.
"$12-$15/hour if they're lucky; MUCH LESS IN POLAND"
Point of all that should be easy to understand. QA is paid around minimum wage, are overworked to death (60h weakly is unsustainable for anyone) and are blamed for things that don't depend on them at all. They would be better financially if they would be working in McDonald.
QA is also comprised of the least skilled workers. I am not saying that if you are in QA, you have to earn less, but anybody can become a junior QA with a month of training, whereas it takes over a decade of skill training to work on the graphics engine.

The average industry salary does not reflect your contribution, but the demand for your skills. That is similar among most industries.
 
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