Support NeoGAF

[Hero of Legend]

(Any contributors would be GREATLY appreciated)

We have a thread focusing on Rare's SLUMP since the buyout by Microsoft.

But let us journey to the years 2001-2002 and focus on what Rare actually had in their creative minds for the GameCube and the Game Boy Advance, a lot of which was uncovered over the years. Some were changed post-buyout, others never came to be at all.

Let us look at the list of games we at the moment know, from that came out unchanged, became another, or never came out period.

We all know that Star Fox Adventures was the only game from rare to actually make it to GC, in fact it was rushed to when the buyout happened, casualties of this included the shortening of the General Scales fight near the end.

Let's start with the GameCube, the juicier of the two:

1. Donkey Kong Racing.

Oh yes, the MOST famous of the list, this was only shown as a single video back in I believe at Spaceworld:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ThbbN3o5yw

This was going to feature Donkey Kong. Shocking, right? Anyway, here's an article from IGN from way back when:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/08/22/donkey-kong-racing

Features

- Choose to play as one of your favorite monkeys: Donkey Kong, Diddy Kong, Tiny Kong and more
- Saddle up and brave the tropical landscape with a rhino, piranha, or ostrich in high-action races
- Take to the sky, sea, or land for numerous amounts of strategic routes
- Ride through blooming jungle scenery, teeming with wildlife of all kinds
- Turn you animal(s) of choice into true thoroughbreds by collecting food and prizes during races
- Hear a fully orchestrated soundtrack and pristine sound effects in Dolby Surround
- Experience "real-world phenomena" such as fading sunlight, shifting shadows, swaying trees, etc
- One to four players
- Available in 2002

Contrary to popular belief, David Wise did NOT work on the music:

You mention Donkey Kong Racing, but I wasn't given the opportunity to work on this title.

http://www.squareenixmusic.com/features/interviews/davidwise.shtml

When the buyout happened, the game was transformed in Sabreman Stampede for the Xbox, a LONG article of this was made by the great, recently closed MundoRare:

http://mundorare.com/features/stampedes-sorrowful-swan-song

This bit in the article tells of something shocking:

As we all know, the game started as Donkey Kong Racing, but it apparently never got farther than the E3 2001 promo video before it became Sabreman Stampede. In the beginning, Sabreman Stampede, like its former incarnation, was a racing game involving jumping from one animal to another, and racing towards the screen.

WHAT? Might be unintended context, but who knows.

I also recall an article (don't remember where) where it was reported that when the trailer was made, there wasn't much done at that point. A lot of the assets were pre-rendered (you can see that Taj looks way too good to be a real-time model).

Edit: I just found some new info! It's from the leader of the project, and context shows it was Lee Musgrave, who provided some interesting bits:

http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/10/01/crash-lab-life-after-rareware-and-free-radical/

Ha! – yes, I made that video! . . . Donkey Kong Racing was obviously pretty heavily tied to Nintendo as a franchise, and as Rare approached the finalization of a buyout deal with Microsoft it was clear that the game had no future, at least with the ape’s as characters. We switched it around to be a Sabreman game, and there was a great early Xbox prototype – but someone, somewhere decreed that it was a little too old-school for the kind of ‘revolutionary gaming experiences’ that the Xbox was capable of delivering, and so it started down a path of meandering changes, updates and ‘evolution’ that finally saw it run out of steam and fall over. There were some great ideas in the game as it developed though, and I still look back to the early racing game design and think we could have done something great with that.

On Donkey Kong Racing’s gameplay:

It was a pure racing game, the underlying software mechanics were actually based on car physics, but it also incorporated the idea of riders jumping between different animals mid-race, to always be riding the ones that were bigger or faster . . . we had some awesome gameplay in place, and it was lots of fun – we even had a multiplayer version working – and when you fell off, you had to tap-tap-tap (HyperSports style) to run on foot and catch up with an animal. Fun, but it lost some appeal without the DK universe around it, and Microsoft were unsure of its potential with Xbox gamers I think.

Let's move on to another game.

2. Grabbed by the Ghoulies.

Indeed, this was conceived for the GameCube, not only that, but a VIDEO exists of it, apparently it was an unlockable in the final Xbox version. Have a look!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Uxj_j4wokw

Grant Kirkhope (composer, also of the Banjo games and is now pretty much a freelancer) commented on this on his website:

http://grantkirkhope.com/grabbedbytheghoulies.html

This was a busy time at Rare. We had started Grabbed by the Ghoulies straight after Banjo Tooie and we were developing it for the Gamecube. Right around this time the option for Nintendo to buy Rare outright (they owned 49%) was up, they had to buy us or sell their shares to someone else. As you all now know they decided against owning us entirely and Microsoft stepped in and bought us. There was other interested parties at the time but the MS deal looked like the best. So we had to switch Grabbed by the Ghoulies from Gamecube to XBOX pretty fast.

Other than that, not a while lot is known.

3. Kameo: Elements of Power.

Again. This was for GameCube before the buyout. Lots of stuff exists like videos and previews, but it looked pretty early, it was set for 2002, but considering I don't recall footage from 2002, it likely could've been in 2003 had things not happened like they did.

IGN has lots of information:

http://ca.ign.com/articles/2001/07/03/kameo-elements-of-power-3

I remember it being said that Kameo was a Fairy Type before, and MS thought it wouldn't be a good idea so they made her into an Elf.

Don't know of any other notable bits at the moment.

4. Perfect Dark Zero.

Originally a GameCube game, sound familiar?

Unseen64 has some shots of Joanna's model and a small clip of it:

http://www.unseen64.net/2008/04/08/perfect-dark-zero-gc-tech-demo/

Don't know of any other assets.

5. Banjo-Kazooie.

All that was ever shown was the Spaceworld "tech demo":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGHHUO5cmhE

Pretty certain it was confirmed they didn't have any concrete ideas at the time. They went on to make concepts like Banjo X, Banjo-Kazoomie, Banjo Karting, etc. We all know what happened then.

6. Quest.

The final mystery GameCube game is the most enigmatic. This was Rare's TOP SECRET project, originally an MMO, then it became a Space Shooter, before moving to the Xbox.

http://www.unseen64.net/2009/04/07/quest-rareware-mmo-xbox-cancelled/

Quest started around 2000 after Perfect Dark N64 as a mixed fantasy MMO. One name it had for a while was Elements of 3 Powers but it wasn’t related to Kameo (the other team probably took over the name when it was abandoned). Around 2001 Quest was a space shooter for the Gamecube and in 2002 it was converted to the Xbox and shortly thereafter put on hold. After Perfect Dark Zero a fantasy MMO version came back, this time titled Cascade. It was however cancelled in 2007 when the team did GoldenEye 007 for the XBLA instead. As you all know, the latter was finished but never released.

This would've been huge considering both are very rare (ahem) on GC.

7. Your Garden

This new one I found is actually the prototype for Viva Pinata in its earliest stage. What's ultra bizarre is that it started out as a Pocket PC game, how the hell would that have been legal? Anywho, they had a three-person team move it to GC, and naturally then to Xbox and so on and so forth.

http://www.raregamer.co.uk/?games=viva-pinata-tepid-seat

Viva Piñata started life as a game for the Pocket PC called Your Garden. A team of three people worked on the prototype and expanded it into a playable game from Pocket PC to GameCube then Xbox. We knew that the game was unusual and thought it needed a strong graphical style to represent it. Ryan came up with the Piñata theme which fed back into the design of the game.
From that point the game moved to the PC, then onto the Xbox 360. The team grew as the project went into full production. Microsoft were very supportive, and seemed to recognise the need to have different game types on their console. As part of their support they approached 4Kids about the animated show. This seemed to be a good match and we welcomed the chance to work with 4Kids.
Throughout all the changes we stuck pretty closely to the original design and enjoyed Microsoft’s support through production. I guess that makes us unusual and very lucky!

Now let's move to the GBA, the canned list is much shorter, only two games officially survived the buyout unscathed; Banjo-Kazooie: Grunty's Revenge (only published by THQ as it was just after the buyout, in fact, this pre-dated Ghoulies on Xbox!). The other was Sabre Wulf!

1. Diddy Kong Pilot.

http://www.unseen64.net/2008/04/07/diddy-kong-pilot-banjo-pilot-beta/

Some vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug5EwTSFt10 (2003 version)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uY-iwQeVYLs (2001 version)

Became Banjo Pilot, but surprisingly, two ROMs of betas were leaked a bit ago.

One of which even included MARIO characters, go figure, it's MK in reverse!

Thanks Sponge!

2. Donkey Kong's Coconut Crackers.

Became it's Mr. Pants. Not a whole lot known sadly.

Only clip ever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wl0D01uA_lM

That's pretty much it IIRC for canned GBA games, I think.

Sabre Wulf was actually at Spaceworld 2001 so that counts as unscathed (unless changes happened that I didn't know about). And as for the DKC trilogy, I have no clue if it was conceived before or after the buyout (the GBC version of DKC1 was prior though). Here's a vid of it and DKP:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DRAqj__5eA

So really the only true games from this era that lived on as intended pre-MS are the following:

So for now, there you have it. Hope you enjoyed this look at what could have been.

 

[Log4Girlz]

They made games of an uncommonly high quality.

 

[Samurai_Heart]

Alternateverse:
Brought from Microsoft to work for Nintendo's Wii Sports series =P

If Nintendo still had Rare, I think like most of the original Retro employees they would have wanted a chance to work on HD systems etc and most would have left before they worked on the Wii U.

 

[Richie]

Banjo Kazooie representation in Smash.
What I wouldn't give, man.

Excellent OP, by the way.

 

[Byronic Hero]

That Space World Trailer for Banjo-Kazooie still hurts my soul. Why couldn't we have gotten that on Xbox 360 instead of Nuts and Bolts?

 

[NotLiquid]

I wish there was a higher quality video of that Space World demonstration, because just judging from the camera feed it only looked like a Banjo-Tooie tech demo.

Though since they had a bigger version of Rock Solid in there I guess their demonstrations were just to show how much more of the same models they could fit into the Cube? It didn't seem like they had a very big Banjo project for the console.

 

[w1gglyjones]

they'd be making vitality sensor games

 

[Jagsrock]

 

[JazzmanZ]

You forgot Mr.pants is also a GBA game.

 

[cdkee]

Says it all.

 

[frankie_baby]

they released what just 2 games for the original xbox, yeah they might have been going up there arse a bit and taking too long getting stuff out but they would've got like at least half a dozen gamecube games done

they clearly haven't been worth to MS what they paid for them but they could've been worth that and more to ninty

 

[Sponge]

You forgot Mr.pants is also a GBA game.

Mr. Pants wasn't planned under Nintendo. Mr. Pants GBA was DK Coconut Crackers.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

The problem is Rare was starting to basically remake Nintendo games:

Mario Kart -> Diddy Kong Racing
Luigi's Mansion -> Grabbed by the Ghoulies
Zelda -> Starfox Adventures
Zelda Majora's Mask -> Kameo

They should have been focusing on bolstering Nintendo's software line-up by developing titles Nintendo wouldn't normally make, such as fps (Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark) and edgy stuff (Conkers).

 

[manueldelalas]

The quality of their latest Nintendo games was really bad. Starfox adventures and banjo gba were really disappointing.

I think most of the talent left before, and seeing their latest games, nothing of value was lost.

 

[Sponge]

The problem is Rare was starting to basically remake Nintendo games:

Mario Kart -> Diddy Kong Racing
Luigi's Mansion -> Grabbed by the Ghoulies
Zelda -> Starfox Adventures
Zelda Majora's Mask -> Kameo

They should have been focusing on bolstering Nintendo's software line-up by developing titles Nintendo wouldn't normally make, such as fps (Goldeneye 007, Perfect Dark) and edgy stuff (Conkers).

For launch games, that's not a bad thing in my opinion. We probably would have gotten more original titles later down the line. I'm pretty sure Viva Pinata was once under Nintendo too with a different name.

 

[codhand]

i'm sick of this revisionist history that claims kameo was good

 

[TheFLYINGManga_Ka]

There'd be no Retro.

So as far as I'm concerned the question is if Nintendo still had Rare would we have gotten Metroid Prime or Donkey Kong Country Returns?

I think at the end, it worked out for the better.

 

[Quadraphonic]

At the time it was bizarre for Nintendo to dump them, but looking back, it seemed like the most profitable move they've ever made.

 

[JazzmanZ]

Mr. Pants wasn't planned under Nintendo. Mr. Pants GBA was DK Coconut Crackers.

oh ya what about Diddy kong racing DS?

 

[Sponge]

The quality of their latest Nintendo games was really bad. Starfox adventures and banjo gba were really disappointing.

I think most of the talent left before, and seeing their latest games, nothing of value was lost.

Star Fox Adventures had problems due to it becoming a Star Fox game. It would have been nicer if it was it stayed Dinosaur Planet. Like how Nuts & Bolts would have been a fantasic new IP but as a Banjo game it's lackluster.

There'd be no Retro.

So as far as I'm concerned the question is if Nintendo still had Rare would we have gotten Metroid Prime or Donkey Kong Country Returns?

I think at the end, it worked out for the better.

Retro would be around if Rare stayed. In fact they co-existed together for a short period of time. Ken Lobb recently talked about helping Retro during Metroid Prime

 

[The Antitype]

Let's be honest:

They'd be stuck making motion control bullshit for the Wii, just like they're stuck making motion-control for the Kinect.

i'm sick of this revisionist history that claims kameo was good

Kameo was hardly amazing, but it was a good, solid game. 7.5/10 territory if you want to go by numbers.

B&K: Nuts and Bolts was actually pretty good too, but some people couldn't get past the sacrilege that a B&K game could be anything other than a Mario 64 clone with random-widget collection.

 

[Danielsan]

Their games would still have sold like shit and we'd probably never seen Viva Pinata, which in my opinion is the best thing they've ever made.

Too bad the studio is practically dead at this point. Most of the talent that remained is long gone. But hey, they're pretty good at making Xbox avatar items!

 

[elfinke]

That was a fun, albeit downcast OP, nice work!

These threads always remind me of a small comic strip (in my mind's eye it's a Penny Arcade strip but I'm not sure if that's right), where Nintendo start off by saying they would not sell Rare for anything, followed by a panel that has a Microsoft arm and a speech bubble asking 'What about for this huge sack of money?' or similar. Anyone remember it?

 

[Sponge]

oh ya what about Diddy kong racing DS?

That one is an odd case. Rare's games besides DK were published by THQ, but because Nintendo owns Diddy and Microsoft didn't mind Rare making GBA games at the time, it was okay for Nintendo and Rare to partner one last time.

Let's be honest:

They'd be stuck making motion control bullshit for the Wii, just like they're stuck making motion-control for the Kinect.

A Banjo with minimal motion controls ala Mario Galaxy would have been amazing though.

 

[w1gglyjones]

Let's be honest:

They'd be stuck making motion control bullshit for the Wii, just like they're stuck making motion-control for the Kinect.

well, the motion control bullshit for the wii was pretty good, for the most part. better than kinect, we can agree if you want to argue.

and just because MS uses Rare a certain way doesn't mean that nintendo would use them the same way. nintendo would just have them making fucking donkey kong

 

[Kallor]

At least we could have gotten Banjo-Kazooie in smash bros. I think Rare Still woulda still be pretty shit even if they had stayed with Nintendo.

 

[Cipherr]

Alternateverse:
Brought from Microsoft to work for Nintendo's Wii Sports series =P

If Nintendo still had Rare, I think like most of the original Retro employees they would have wanted a chance to work on HD systems etc and most would have left before they worked on the Wii U.

Most of the Retro studio left? Thats news to me. I remember some people leaving, but nowhere NEAR 'most'.

 

[manueldelalas]

Star Fox Adventures had problems due to it becoming a Star Fox game. It would have been nicer if it was it stayed Dinosaur Planet. Like how Nuts & Bolts would have been a fantasic new IP but as a Banjo game it's lackluster.

Nah, the game was bland on all areas. Fox in it was the least of its problems. I was extremely disappointed by it, and I wasn't expecting a lot.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

A Banjo with minimal motion controls ala Mario Galaxy would have been amazing though.

The problem is, it probably would have literally been Banjo Galaxy

 

[Sponge]

The problem is, it probably would have literally been Banjo Galaxy

I would not have minded that much. Banjo was always more about exploration than platforming in comparison to Mario. It's like how Sonic Lost World reminds me of Galaxy and yet I still love it.

 

[codhand]

Let's be honest:

They'd be stuck making motion control bullshit for the Wii, just like they're stuck making motion-control for the Kinect.
Kameo was hardly amazing, but it was a good, solid game. 7.5/10 territory if you want to go by numbers.

B&K: Nuts and Bolts was actually pretty good too, but some people couldn't get past the sacrilege that a B&K game could be anything other than a Mario 64 clone with random-widget collection.

nuts and bolts was better, but i tried multiple times to get into it, required far too much investment in lego building

goldeneye and the banjo are probably the best things theyve made
never played conker but it seemed up there too...

 

[Azure J]

Well on the plus side, I'd have my godlike Banjo platformer by now.

On the minus side, Donkey Kong Country Returns wouldn't have happened or been as different as it was...

 

[Sponge]

Well on the plus side, I'd have my godlike Banjo platformer by now.

On the minus side, Donkey Kong Country Returns wouldn't have happened or been as different as it was...

That's literally the only thing that would make me sad. We have no idea how Rare's Donkey Kong game would have been so we don't exactly know what we missed out on.

I wish we got Donkey Kong Racing though.

 

[Silky]

Did they reuse the original Killer Instinct font for Kameo

I really hope that people could cement the idea into their heads that Nintendo didn't want to buy Rare, so this doesn't dissolve into some unwarranted "lol Microsoft stole Rare xD" bullshit.

 

[Shiggy]

The problem is, their initial problems would have been the same. Until the Stampers were forced out, Rare was still run by people from the inside.

Some quotes from 2003 to illustrate these issues:

Piñata is going to be a game that you get free on the XBOX 2 hard drive. You put seeds in a virtual garden and water them and watch them grow. The more games you buy the bigger your garden gets. Nice idea I think it was SHIGERU MIYAMOTO who came up with the idea for the game cube but didn't bother to implement it as he thought it would be a waste of time.

Please someone from Microsoft go into Rareware and fire all the producers they are all useless and very rich, its not fare on the artists as they are some of the best in the world, but most of them have gone on to better companies as they have lost faith in there team leaders.

Someone I know got made redundant the other day, while four of my work colleges where taken off a team and put into a room with menial tasks to do. The tasks were going to be reviewed each month until the management decide they have grounds to fire them.

Do you think Microsoft can sort it out, What do you think?

I'd laugh if I didn't know every word of it was true. I too was once a Rare drone until I left. I really really loved the company before I joined. I truely believed that it was a world class company.
It isn't. It pays badly. It's managed badly. People spend a lot of time moaning and bitching about thing. People look out for themselves. This kind of culture doesn't just spring up overnight, it's the result of years of carefully planned activities such as:
Ignoring your staff.
Having a pay raise freeze, and capping the Xmas bonus (6 months before they sold to Microsoft)
Rewarding you based on the length of time at the company or whether you are friends with the top players (or in the case of the PDZ designer, married to them).
Having a half hour lunch. It's in the middle of no-where so you can't do anything during a working week (like visit the bank, or pop into town).
No external email.
No external internet access apart from a team shared "internet" machine. ()

I too have friends at Rare. I know a few are already making plans to leave. The Rare way though is simply to replace them with 21 year olds straight from Uni that think, like I did, that working stupid hours for Rare is a dream in itself. The dream wears fine pretty quick.

Rare: the classic example of power. It corrupts.
One last tip though. If you are in anyway in control of another employee.....please go on a management training course. Really...do. Because you lack the skills needed to manage. This is not a Rare thing. Lots of people in this industry think that because they're a good artist or programmer that they can be a good manager.

Oh well.
Such is life.

Here's a thought. Rare...a company with a Nursery for it's employees. Wonderful. That saves a load per month for a lot of staff that have worked there for a long time...and now have a family and children.
Amazingly it was closed....weeks before Xmas last year...why?
Oh yes....to save money.
And to avoid paying the nursery staff Xmas bonuses (staff they took with them on holiday to look after the kids....nice).
And of course because all the Stamper/Tilston children had left (making it soooo obviously pointless).

Oh well....I guess they must suffer the plague of evil employees. Maybe we should set up a new charity....Millionaires in Need.
Give generously...they do have to pay for Steven Stamper after all...the highest paid gardener in the WORLD....

Please Microsoft storm us as you normally do and get rid of the management before I lose all credibility.

P.S. can rare's so called management stop telling off its staff for posting notes on fat babies, your better off just getting in some professional management who wouldn't stoop so low to see if there staff where posting notes at lunch.

I'm looking forward to the Xmas party but please don't make me dress up in children's clothes again.

Can you also give me a weeks wage at Christmas instead of the usual £250

You're joking? They've been whinging about postings on Fatbabies?
Typical Rare: moan about the problems rather then try and address the issues. "You better stop being nasty to me or I'l scream and I'l cry and I'll hold my breath until I turn purple".

Problem for me, as an Ex-Rare is I don't actually think the management (I always got on quite well with Betteridge and Bayliss) are arseholes. Really...I don't. I just think they think that because they could run a company with 30 employees....well heck then can run one with 190+. You can't. It's not your fault. No one can. You need a localised management structure. Some guy with a problem is not going to go talk to Farmer about an issue because:
He earns more in a month then you do in about 5 years.
He will completely disregard what you have to say...not becaue he's horrible but because the Rare way got them this far...thus the Rare way is the right way. So they won't listen, and they will tell you so. Without even trying to put it in a nice way.
He (and they) will remember what you said and hold a grudge against you in the future - even if this is just paranoia, it's paranoia brought on by the current structure in place.

Too rich, too quick with little thought about the company outside the director and the choosen few except in terms of "those slacking employees".

It really is a pity because I still love Rare (obviously I'm a masochist), and it breaks my heart to see what is plainly in front of their faces (can't see the wood for the trees come to mind) - that the end....in one form or another, is nigh.

A company best asset period, is it's employees. Not it's IP. Not it's portfollio. Not it's past history. Not it's computer controlled office. Once that's gone then your just left with fanboys, a bad reputation and being laughed at in the industry press. Oh....and of course Microsoft will replace you all.

Ho hum.

Funnily Betteridge was later made Studio Director and then kicked out when the company remained a mess. Now he's at preciousbluedot with others from Rare Ltd..

Riddle me this then: Why was the Lead Programmer of PD Zero (the man brought into salvage what was left of PD after the Free Rads left) basically fired from the company over 1 1/2 years ago? Was the project stalling...no seemed to be very much on time for Xmas '03 release. Was the project impressive? Looked very nice - a massive leap from PD. Was he hard to get along with? He had a reputation for speaking his mind and his staff respected him (and possibly loathed him in equal measure). Was he incompentent? Seemed to be considered one of the brightest at Rare at the time. Was he not working hard enough? Seemed to be working all the hours in the days....and weekends...and this was the beginning of the middle of the project (i.e. no one else in the company bar Starfox was in).

So why was he escorted from the building? Oh yes....I remember. The Art Director and the Designer (married to a Stamper sister) decided that they where being "restricted" too much. If you read that correctly you will instantly know this of a case of too many cooks (see if you can finish the sentence for me?).
How long did it take them to replace him with a lead programmer that had finished a game? Over 1/2 a year.
When can we expect PDZ now (remember I feel it WOULD have made this Xmas previously)? When the Devil has to defrost his car in the morning.

So work hard and get rewarded? Or work hard for 2 years then get kicked out because you told the Designer and Art Director they can't have all their toys in the playpen at the same time?

They are talking about Brian Marshall here.

....that'll be "BM" you're talking about. I beleive he resigned after being alledgedly threatened by some people at Rare (hmm)... He was a very, very talented guy - one of the best code optimisers out there - But, boy if its the same person, what a right royal pain in the ass - sounds just like that man "Aquam". License my top secret technology.... I need more money.... etc etc

There's a couple of people at the office that worked indirectly with him - they said PDZ was absolutely jaw-dropping on the GC - and these are some smart renderer people, and now it looks like a sack of ****.

We have some former Rare employees who confirm that the GC prototype was better than what we saw on Xbox or Xbox 360.

 

[Sponge]

Did they reuse the original Killer Instinct font for Kameo

I really hope that people could cement the idea into their heads that Nintendo didn't want to buy Rare, so this doesn't dissolve into some unwarranted "lol Microsoft stole Rare xD" bullshit.

It had to do with Rare being too expensive for Nintendo's taste didn't it? I know Rare needed more money for their projects and Nintendo didn't wanna help with that.

 

[Garrett 2U]

If they stayed at Nintendo? Wii motion games

 

[Sponge]

We have some former Rare employees who confirm that the GC prototype was better than what we saw on Xbox or Xbox 360.

That's such a shame to hear. I would have loved a Perfect Dark game on the Gamecube.

If they stayed at Nintendo? Wii motion games

That's not a bad thing...

 

[The Antitype]

nuts and bolts was better, but i tried multiple times to get into it, required far too much investment in lego building

goldeneye and the banjo are probably the best things theyve made
never played conker but it seemed up there too...

Conker and Jet Force Gemini are my two favorite Rare games. Nothing they've made since really comes close save Viva Pinata, which is so different from a gameplay standpoint that comparison is almost pointless.

I would not have minded that much. Banjo was always more about exploration than platforming in comparison to Mario. It's like how Sonic Lost World reminds me of Galaxy and yet I still love it.

I don't really agree with this. Mario 64 pretty much single-handedly turned the focus in Mario games from tight, reflex-based precision platforming to exploration and basic world interaction. Banjo just added a ludicrous emphasis on random-widget collection as padding.

well, the motion control bullshit for the wii was pretty good, for the most part. better than kinect, we can agree if you want to argue.

and just because MS uses Rare a certain way doesn't mean that nintendo would use them the same way. nintendo would just have them making fucking donkey kong

Honestly, the only games on Wii that I really enjoyed were those that really tempered the use of motion controls and allowed for the finer, more precise actions to be performed through the buttons and the analog stick.

I guess, yes, they would have the chance to make something better than Kinect bullshit on the Wii, but what would it be? Banjo Galaxy? Just taking the gameplay mechanics that Nintendo locks down and wrapping them around a less interesting world with minimal innovation and tons of collection?

That would certainly be better than Kinect sports, but not so much better that I mourn their loss.

They had their time in the era of the N64, when we were still in the infancy of 3D and standards were lower.

 

[Silky]

That's not a bad thing...

Then how come motion games aren't bad when they're working for MS? Either way they'd be leaving the core concept/model aside for motion controlled/traditional hybrids that everyone will hate.

 

[Sponge]

Then how come motion games aren't bad when they're working for MS?.

Motion gaming isn't a problem. The motion control in Mario Galaxy is fine, and if Rare did that with Banjo I would have enjoyed it.

It's the fact all Rare is making is Kinect Sports, which is obviously cashing in on Wii Sports. That is the problem.

I don't really agree with this. Mario 64 pretty much single-handedly turned the focus in Mario games from tight, reflex-based precision platforming to exploration and basic world interaction. Banjo just added a ludicrous emphasis on random-widget collection as padding.




Honestly, the only games on Wii that I really enjoyed were those that really tempered the use of motion controls and allowed for the finer, more precise actions to be performed through the buttons and the analog stick.

I guess, yes, they would have the chance to make something better than Kinect bullshit on the Wii, but what would it be? Banjo Galaxy? Just taking the gameplay mechanics that Nintendo locks down and wrapping them around a less interesting world with minimal innovation and tons of collection?

That would certainly be better than Kinect sports, but not so much better that I mourn their loss.

They had their time in the era of the N64, when we were still in the infancy of 3D and standards were lower.

I'm not saying Rare would have thrown Banjo in space. I doubt we would have gotten Banjo Galaxy. I think we would have gotten an expansion to what made Banjo great, like Tooie was. We can't be for certain though.

 

[Silky]

Motion gaming isn't a problem. The motion control in Mario Galaxy is fine, and if Rare did that with Banjo I would have enjoyed it.

It's the fact all Rare is making is Kinect Sports, which is obviously cashing in on Wii Sports. That is the problem.

Then after KS is done, Rare is splitting into multiple teams to work on their next project. Their enthusiasm to returning to Banjo is a high sign as to what they're doing next.

 

[Ploid 3.0]

They would be rockstars, like ND. Imagine if ND stayed with Universal.

Nintendo would probably have even more games too.

 

[Sponge]

Then after KS is done, Rare is splitting into multiple teams to work on their next project. Their enthusiasm to returning to Banjo is a high sign as to what they're doing next.

Correct, and despite what people here might say, I won't mind if a hypothetical Banjo One (lol) has Kinect so long as it's a good game.

 

[Zalman]

This thread just makes me sad.

 

[The Antitype]

I'm not saying Rare would have thrown Banjo in space. I doubt we would have gotten Banjo Galaxy. I think we would have gotten an expansion to what made Banjo great, like Tooie was. We can't be for certain though.

I didn't mean to imply that Rare would literally throw Banjo in space, I was simply making the case that they would take the gameplay concepts and mechanics that NIntendo innovated and wrap them around a much less interesting character, world without bringing significant innovations of their own.

Honestly, I think the most interesting thing Rare ever did conceptually with the B&K franchise was Nuts and Bolts, they just didn't pull it off quite as well. A better mix of traditional platforming and exploration with the experimentation and creation of the vehicle-building system would have made for something great.

Building the game around completing set challenges, interesting as some of them were or creative as you could get solving them, felt artificial and restrictive. It would have been better if it was just like 'there's a cliff over there in the distance - figure out a way to get there'.

 

[SaSliXCII]

Omg could you imagine, the Wii U would have sold millions in its first year. They left Nintendo for a reason and ended up being closed off by MS, stuck making motion control games, I bet even Sony would have forced them to make Wonderbook games or PS Move, god what a failure that was.

I think people are generally overestimating their talent as a developer anyway.

 

[Epcott]

I would be playing a Battletoads game right now on the Wii U tablet with gameplay similar to Power Stone.

*sigh* if Tim and Chris Stamper stayed as well.

 

[Sponge]

Honestly, I think the most interesting thing Rare ever did conceptually with the B&K franchise was Nuts and Bolts, they just didn't pull it off quite as well. A better mix of traditional platforming and exploration with the experimentation and creation of the vehicle-building system would have made for something great.

Nuts & Bolts itself is a really fun game. It was just so much of a departure of what everyone enjoyed from the old Banjo games. I wish there would someway that game could have pleased both parties. Maybe if they didn't change the style I would have warmed up to the new gameplay. There was just way too much change.

Sunshine was a Mario game that didn't have any real powerups and you had FLUDD, but the gameplay itself still felt like Mario to me. Nuts & Bolts felt too open and you didn't really explore much, it was mostly challenges. I still think it should have been a new IP.

Don't get me wrong either, it's okay that you enjoyed it more than the old Banjo games. It was just way too big of a risk to take and it didn't work out for Rare or Microsoft.

 

[Silky]

Correct, and despite what people here might say, I won't mind if a hypothetical Banjo One (lol) has Kinect so long as it's a good game.

Rare's philosophy with Kinect now has me really excited with their future projects; "Use it where it makes sense only." I wouldn't mind if Banjo had a few kinect puzzles every now and then to spice up some of the jiggy hunting.

And fuck it; bring back Vehicles. Make the worlds massive in scape (N&B worlds were pretty damn huge.)