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PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU TFLOPs Difference “Probably” Won’t Matter in the Long Run – Hellpoint Developer

Stuart360

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And which games sell consoles? Ahh the exclusives…..

Which games are people still talking about today? You think they are talking about COD Ghosts of Killzone Shadowfall? Need for Speed Rivals or Driveclub, Project Cars of Gran Turismo Sport, Tomb Raider or Uncharted and LOU...………..

It's just like when they show games for the next gen consoles, people will want to se what the next gen COD or Battlefield look like, but you know it's the exclusive games that will dominate the conversation.......Hell, even on GAF last week I saw a thread about, "If UC2 should have won GOTY on GAF". Let's be honest, exclusives are the driving force for consoles, they are the main talking point for years ongoing, multi's you can get anywhere, it's why PS has dominated for so many generations, they've always had the better exclusives and this gen is further testament...
Exclusives drive console warz, thats why they are talked about so much.
 

DeepEnigma

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A Sony aligned developer who owns the company which suggested that The Order 1886 was like the best $100 steak you've ever had when criticism hit about the shallowness of the game and its length.


What’s your portfolio besides damage control and FUD? I would hope at least a stock one.

RAD has been developing PC games and did that very good VR one. Haven’t touched a Sony game since The Order. But cling onto that old and tired trick.
 
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DeepEnigma

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Exclusives drive console warz, thats why they are talked about so much.

They also drive a diverse lineup and millions and millions of sales, for Sony and Nintendo at least. MS also thinks so since they invested and purchased in house studios.
 

lepermessiah

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Both consoles have revealed some impressive things about their hardware so far, and both boast advantages over the other in different areas. The one area where the Xbox Series X is looking like it has the upper hand is pure, raw power, with, for instance, a GPU with a clock speed of 12 teraflops, as opposed to the PS5’s 10.28 teraflops. But how much of an effective difference will something like this make to developers in the long run?

According to Marc-André Jutras – Technical Director at Cradle Games, developers of the upcoming sci-fi action RPG Hellpoint – probably not too much. In a recent interview, when we asked Jutras about whether he thinks the aforementioned difference will have too much of an impact in the long run, he suggested that it wouldn’t, since there’s multiple other factors at play.


We also asked if Hellpoint, given how close its launch is to the launch of next-gen consoles, will see a release on the PS5 and Xbox Series X, to which Jutras said that though Cradle Games have thought about it, for now they remained focused on the game’s upcoming launch.


These systems are going to produce virtually identical results. That's that.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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What’s your portfolio besides damage control and FUD? I would hope at least a stock one.

RAD has been developing PC games and did that very good VR one. Haven’t touched a Sony game since The Order. But cling onto that old and tired trick.
They've built 5 games for PlayStation one of which was multiplatform and then a series of VR games, I stand by what I said.
 
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I still can't believe in 2020; we continue having these pissing matches and attempts at seeing who's penis (XSX or PS5) is bigger... Like seriously? Get the system you want, for the games you should by now already expect to come out on that particular brand if that is your system of course; or of course get both systems. You all continue to know that PC hardware is always the most powerful but gets no where near the support in terms of 1st party games rolling over (or at least it did). In the end, it is about the games not the hardware.

But I have said my piece, I think you all continue to show you are a bunch of man children with this bickering about power, specs, etc. I grew up past that stage a long time ago and now just play games on my systems of choice.
 
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MCplayer

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I still can't believe in 2020; we continue having these pissing matches and attempts at seeing who's penis (XSX or PS5) is bigger... Like seriously? Get the system you want, for the games you should by now already expect to come out on that particular brand if that is your system of course; or of course get both systems. You all continue to know that PC hardware is always the most powerful but gets no where near the support in terms of 1st party games rolling over (or at least it did). In the end, it is about the games not the hardware.

But I have said my piece, I think you all continue to show you are a bunch of man children with this bickering about power, specs, etc. I grew up past that stage a long time ago and now just play games on my systems of choice.
you can't really stop it...
This wars start from fanboyism until the tech nerds arrive and the discussion grows, I don't mind it honestly, but I do mind idiots who aren't polite, mostly fanboys but also some nerds.
 

DForce

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And which games sell the most every year, yes the multiplatform games.

We have been through this a lot, so why do you guys keep ignoring data?

Games God of War, Spider-Man, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn are some of the best selling games out there this generation.


So far, people have bought more consoles in which they the choose between.


Spider-Man, God of War, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn + Multiplats

vs

Halo, Gears, Forza, Sea of Thieves + Mulitplats.
 

DynamiteCop!

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you can't really stop it...
This wars start from fanboyism until the tech nerds arrive and the discussion grows, I don't mind it honestly, but I do mind idiots who aren't polite, mostly fanboys but also some nerds.
The hostility around here is honestly getting out of control, and what bothers me even more is it's hostility from people that can't properly articulate themselves. I'm fine with perfectly reasonable and assertive people being hostile when they've got a resolute point, but the fanboy people who clearly can't make a point? Nah, I've run out of patience for these people.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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If both the XSX and the PS5 are running at the same resolution, with the same Raytracing settings, I assure you the PS5 would have a 30% to 40% disadvantage
Here's the issue that a lot of people are not understanding in regard to the RT hardware. It's not that Microsoft's system is more powerful and that the PlayStation 5 hardware could match its RT capability at lower resolution as is convention for raster rendering, it's that the hardware itself is incapable of firing as many rays.
 

DeepEnigma

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Think as you may, we both know it's a disingenuous position but you do you.

Yes, accusing a third-party developer for being in some childish console war conspiracy, is a disingenuous position.

What are your credentials, hands on tech and game portfolio to challenge what he says?
 
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Nikana

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I still can't believe in 2020; we continue having these pissing matches and attempts at seeing who's penis (XSX or PS5) is bigger... Like seriously? Get the system you want, for the games you should by now already expect to come out on that particular brand if that is your system of course; or of course get both systems. You all continue to know that PC hardware is always the most powerful but gets no where near the support in terms of 1st party games rolling over (or at least it did). In the end, it is about the games not the hardware.

But I have said my piece, I think you all continue to show you are a bunch of man children with this bickering about power, specs, etc. I grew up past that stage a long time ago and now just play games on my systems of choice.

You're cute.
 

DynamiteCop!

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Yes, accusing a third-party developer for being in some childish console war conspiracy, is a disingenuous position.

What are your credentials, hands on tech and game portfolio to challenge what he says?
They're hardly a traditional third party developer, they've very much been a second party studio for Sony. Like when Insomniac made Sunset Overdrive for Xbox that didn't just suddenly erase their history and continued involvement and ties to Sony.
 

DeepEnigma

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They're hardly a traditional third party developer, they've very much been a second party studio for Sony. Like when Insomniac made Sunset Overdrive for Xbox that didn't just suddenly erase their history and continued involvement and ties to Sony.

So no answer other than childish console war accusations?

Dismissive, “hurr durr they made games for PlayStation” is not an argument. They also make them for your avatar, as well as the top VR tech on that platform.
 
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Thirty7ven

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okok and what about having more CUs compared to a higher frequency? which is more beneficial?
agreed on the tecniques of rendering, would be amazing if AMD could develop a DLSS equivelent feature to next gen consoles.

It’s not binary. If it had 80cus at 500mhz would that be better than 10 cus at 3ghz???

It’s how efficient they are at at hitting their targets. The difference in teraflops tells the difference here for the vast vast majority of scenarios, with XSX hitting 12.1 and PS5 hitting 10.28. If they were different architectures or one had clear bottlenecks then there would be more to discuss, but there’s no reason to believe one will be more bottlenecks than the other.
 
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From what we know about AMD raytracing, it doesn't matter how fast you can run your clocks if you don't have the memory bandwidth to power it. XSX has 25 % higher memory bandwidth and 44 % more CU. It will be vastly superior in raytracing workloads. You can't calculate more rays by running higher clocks if you can't get the data to the RAM fast enough.

XSX has two pools of memory

the effect bandwidth per TF is the same

PS5 has GPU cache scrubbers and a faster SSD meaning less idle RAM

theres going to be zero meaningful difference
 

Romulus

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If both the XSX and the PS5 are running at the same resolution, with the same Raytracing settings, I assure you the PS5 would have a 30% to 40% disadvantage

Based on what we know, you can't assure anything. You don't even know the method ps5 is using for raytracing. It could be even less taxing or more. And why wouldn't devs chose a dynamic resolution or reconstruction methods instead of forcing a native resolution? Because that's what they're doing now. But lets assume you're right somehow, what will this phantom 30-40% actually look like onscreen? Be specific. Because I've seen a true 40% difference for the last 7 years and it's pretty insignificant.
 
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Based on what we know, you can't assure anything. You don't even know the method ps5 is using for raytracing. It could be even less taxing or more. And why wouldn't devs chose a dynamic resolution or reconstruction methods instead of forcing a native resolution? Because that's what they're doing now. But lets assume you're right somehow, what will this phantom 30-40% actually look like onscreen? Be specific. Because I've seen a true 40% difference for the last 7 years and it's pretty insignificant.
The PS5 will simply not be able to render the same level of raytracing the XSX can. In any case, if the devs chose a dynamic resolution or checkerboarding in their games, how would that help anyone? Games would still be significantly better on the SXS, all you did was deprive the PS5 of pixels so it can keep up. Remember the checkerboarding on RDR2 On PS4?
I expect a significant portion of the games to disable Raytracing on the PS5 so they don't have to force it to ridiculous resolutions. and that, my friend, would cause a VERY noticeable difference when compared to the Series X
 

DynamiteCop!

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Based on what we know, you can't assure anything. You don't even know the method ps5 is using for raytracing. It could be even less taxing or more. And why wouldn't devs chose a dynamic resolution or reconstruction methods instead of forcing a native resolution? Because that's what they're doing now. But lets assume you're right somehow, what will this phantom 30-40% actually look like onscreen? Be specific. Because I've seen a true 40% difference for the last 7 years and it's pretty insignificant.
Well you saying a 40% difference is insignificant is an immediate disqualification from deductive reasoning because given the state of LCD technology scaling away from native resolutions produces a significant loss in IQ the further you diverge from it. That may not bother you but objectively it's significant. If we were still on CRT's it wouldn't really be an issue but given the present display technology it most certainly is.

I have no idea to the accuracy of his statements but given what he said one could assume a subversion in quality and ray accuracy on all fronts or simply features missing entirely. When you limit precision for RT it results in noise which bears out as artifacts around the edges of the rendering, this could be GI accuracy, corresponding shadows, reflections and so on. With limits in precision you also lose out on details further scaled away from the focal point, you are also limited by the amount of bounce lighting. Another possible scenario is that the PS5 could merely have RT reflections in a game while the Series X has full GI and shadows on top of that.

There's many different directions this could go, and the PlayStation 5 is at a definitive disadvantage.
 
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Well you saying a 40% difference is insignificant is an immediate disqualification from deductive reasoning because given the state of LCD technology scaling away from native resolutions produces a significant loss in IQ the further you diverge from it. That may not bother you but objectively it's significant. If we were still on CRT's it wouldn't really be an issue but given the present display technology it most certainly is.

I have no idea to the accuracy of his statements but given what he said one could assume a subversion in quality and ray accuracy on all fronts or simply features missing entirely. When you limit precision for RT it results in noise which bears out as artifacts around the edges of the rendering, this could be GI accuracy, corresponding shadows, reflections and so on. With limits in precision you also lose out on details further scaled away from the focal point, you are also limited by the amount of bounce lighting. Another possible scenario is that the PS5 could merely have RT reflections in a game while the Series X has full GI and shadows on top of that.

There's many different directions this could go, and the PlayStation 5 is at a definitive disadvantage.
The 30% to 40% disadvantage is only true if the PS5 has something like 9 teraflops for Raytracing (XSX has 13) if it's anything lower than that, then may God save the PS5
 
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martino

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We have been through this a lot, so why do you guys keep ignoring data?

Games God of War, Spider-Man, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn are some of the best selling games out there this generation.


So far, people have bought more consoles in which they the choose between.


Spider-Man, God of War, Uncharted 4, Horizon Zero Dawn + Multiplats

vs

Halo, Gears, Forza, Sea of Thieves + Mulitplats.

10M+ for 100M+ console...majority don't care even if you choose an improbable scenario where there is no overlapping between people buying those different game.
the majority choose ps for others reasons....and all reasons were in favor of ps4 when it mattered the most.
 

DForce

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10M+ for 100M+ console...majority don't care even if you choose an improbable scenario where there is no overlapping between people buying those different game.
the majority choose ps for others reasons....and all reasons were in favor of ps4 when it mattered the most.

How many games sell more than 12 million copies?

Not many.


You guys having a hard time understanding this simple fact. Only a few games sell better than the biggest PS4 exclusives and those aren't the only games that people play.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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10M+ for 100M+ console...majority don't care even if you choose an improbable scenario where there is no overlapping between people buying those different game.
the majority choose ps for others reasons....and all reasons were in favor of ps4 when it mattered the most.
Anothing thing to consider is how many of these high selling exclusive games are bundled in with system hardware and put on heavy promotion (all of them).
 
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Romulus

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The PS5 will simply not be able to render the same level of raytracing the XSX can. In any case, if the devs chose a dynamic resolution or checkerboarding in their games, how would that help anyone? Games would still be significantly better on the SXS, all you did was deprive the PS5 of pixels so it can keep up. Remember the checkerboarding on RDR2 On PS4?
I expect a significant portion of the games to disable Raytracing on the PS5 so they don't have to force it to ridiculous resolutions. and that, my friend, would cause a VERY noticeable difference when compared to the Series X


I'm not sure what you're saying. You answered nothing I asked then used a bad example of checkerboarding with RDR2 on ps4 pro when on the whole it's been good and along with dynamic resolution you can barely tell. To add to this, ps4 pro was at more of a disadvantage to X1X than the situation we have now with ps5.
 

martino

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How many games sell more than 12 million copies?

Not many.


You guys having a hard time understanding this simple fact. Only a few games sell better than the biggest PS4 exclusives and those aren't the only games that people play.
how many games Nintendo can sell on a platform with 13M total sales ?
How many ps loyal fan do you believe there are ?
 
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DForce

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how many games Nintendo can sell on a platform with 13M total sales ?
How ps loyal fan do you believe there are ?
Nintendo games have a high attach rate.


Based on your logic, no one cares about mulitplats because the majority of them don't sell more than 5 million on a single platform.

On top you have games like COD, GTA, Fornite.

Do you think that's the only games people play? CoD is not even selling to a quarter of gamers on a single platform.
 
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Romulus

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Well you saying a 40% difference is insignificant is an immediate disqualification from deductive reasoning because given the state of LCD technology scaling away from native resolutions produces a significant loss in IQ the further you diverge from it. That may not bother you but objectively it's significant. If we were still on CRT's it wouldn't really be an issue but given the present display technology it most certainly is.

I have no idea to the accuracy of his statements but given what he said one could assume a subversion in quality and ray accuracy on all fronts or simply features missing entirely. When you limit precision for RT it results in noise which bears out as artifacts around the edges of the rendering, this could be GI accuracy, corresponding shadows, reflections and so on. With limits in precision you also lose out on details further scaled away from the focal point, you are also limited by the amount of bounce lighting. Another possible scenario is that the PS5 could merely have RT reflections in a game while the Series X has full GI and shadows on top of that.

There's many different directions this could go, and the PlayStation 5 is at a definitive disadvantage.

This literally sounds like first week on the job PR talk. We've already seen 40% disadvantage for years, 7 to be exact and it wasnt anything to brag about. Not only that, theres no proof XSX is anywhere near 40% more powerful. It simply does not have the same gpu gap as xb1 vs ps4. The horsepower isn't there. And now we have dynamic resolution.
 
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I'm not sure what you're saying. You answered nothing I asked then used a bad example of checkerboarding with RDR2 on ps4 pro when on the whole it's been good and along with dynamic resolution you can barely tell. To add to this, ps4 pro was at more of a disadvantage to X1X than the situation we have now with ps5.
PS5 is using the same method of raytracing as the XSX is using, the AMD solution. And you are completely ignoring Raytracing.
 
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Panajev2001a

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How many games sell more than 12 million copies?

Not many.


You guys having a hard time understanding this simple fact. Only a few games sell better than the biggest PS4 exclusives and those aren't the only games that people play.

The effect PS4 first party games have in attracting critical, media, third party developers, and public attention as well as make the software lineup more complete and diverse (helping to create console demand, establish genres, experiment, etc...) is almost as important if not more than the sales alone. Layden’s principle of “First, Best, or Must” spoke well of their focus well.
 
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DynamiteCop!

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This literally sounds like first week on the job PR talk. We've already seen 40% disadvantage for years, 7 to be exact and it wasnt anything to brag about. Not only that, theres no proof XSX is anywhere near 40% more powerful. It simply does not have the same gpu gap as xb1 vs ps4. The horsepower isn't there. And now we have dynamic resolution.
I don't care about what you're saying, I know how LCD's interact with resolutions and the results are obvious. A 1440p game looks considerably worse on an LCD than a game operating at 1800p or above, there's no qualification necessary to acknowledge or see this.
I'd argue this a bit, I'd say it's at a near equal disadvantage but in different capacities.
As noted here that straight 40% doesn't exist anymore, but we come into a more dynamic and complex scenario where Microsoft's fixed frequency system has a GPU advantage which scales downward for PS5, has a CPU advantage which scales downward for PS5, and which has RT hardware which is lesser on PS5.

So while the clarity in the advantage has shifted and exactly how it relates, I'd argue the overall advantage here is just as heavy as that one was.
 

Romulus

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PS5 is using the same method of raytracing as the XSX is using, the AMD solution. And you are completely ignoring Raytracing.

How do you know it's the exact same method? They also both use rdna2 but we never saw them overclocking viable speeds. Using amd doesnt mean its automatically the same.
 
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This literally sounds like first week on the job PR talk. We've already seen 40% disadvantage for years, 7 to be exact and it wasnt anything to brag about. Not only that, theres no proof XSX is anywhere near 40% more powerful. It simply does not have the same gpu gap as xb1 vs ps4. The horsepower isn't there. And now we have dynamic resolution.
Answer me this, how many teraflops does PS5 have exclusively for Raytracing?
 

Romulus

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I don't care about what you're saying, I know how LCD's interact with resolutions and the results are obvious. A 1440p game looks considerably worse on an LCD than a game operating at 1800p or above, there's no qualification necessary to acknowledge or see this.
As noted here that straight 40% doesn't exist anymore, but we come into a more dynamic and complex scenario where Microsoft's fixed frequency system has a GPU advantage which scales downward for PS5, has a CPU advantage which scales downward for PS5, and which has RT hardware which is lesser on PS5.

So while the clarity in the advantage has shifted and exactly how it relates, I'd argue the overall advantage here is just as heavy as that one was.

You're not saying anything at all. You're entire post can be summed up by "I hope so."
 

Thirty7ven

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I think the XSX is made of subpar materials and it will have a fail rate of 70% in its first 12 months. Prove me wrong! Lol
 
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martino

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Nintendo games have a high attach rate.


Based on your logic, no one cares about mulitplats because the majority of them don't sell more than 5 million on a single platform.

On top you have games like COD, GTA, Fornite.

Do you think that's the only games people play? CoD is not even selling to a quarter of gamers on a single platform.
Not what i'm saying.
Data show most people don't play even the games with most sales exclusives or not.(even gtaV is far from it)
It's a whole package that make the choice
And exclusive don't weight that much into it.
And that loyal fan are difficult to count and the number is overblown by them.
If it were the case exclusives would have a lot more sales
This is what I'm saying.
Again how many loyal ps fan do you think there are ? i'm curious.
 
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