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PS5 and Xbox Series X GPU TFLOPs Difference “Probably” Won’t Matter in the Long Run – Hellpoint Developer

DForce

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Not what i'm saying.
Data show most people don't play even the games with most sales exclusives or not.(even gtaV is far from it)
It's a whole package that make the choice
And exclusive don't weight that much into it.
And that loyal fan are difficult to count.
If it were the case they would have a lot more sales
This is what I'm saying.
Again how many loyal ps fan do you think there are ? i'm curious.

You haven't shown much data.

You used 10 out of 100 sold copies to prove a point, which absolutely sales considering how many multiplats sell in comparison.



See all those CoD games?

This is without bundles, and you know how popular Spider-Man bundles were. Spider-Man sold 13m, UC4 16m. The vast majority of multiplat video games do not even come close to this number.

People care about exclusives. Period.
 

martino

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You haven't shown much data.

You used 10 out of 100 sold copies to prove a point, which absolutely sales considering how many multiplats sell in comparison.



See all those CoD games?

This is without bundles, and you know how popular Spider-Man bundles were. Spider-Man sold 13m, UC4 16m. The vast majority of multiplat video games do not even come close to this number.

People care about exclusives. Period.
we agree, people care about exclusives (i mean the more vocal of them are here) but the majority don't.
we are far from 50M+ plus here....
is you problem being so much into warring that everything is O or 1 ?
 
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DForce

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we agree, people care about exclusives (i mean the more vocal of them are here) but the majority don't.
we are far from 50M+ plus here....
is you problem being so much into warring that everything is O or 1 ?
Again, based on your logic, most people don't care about games period because most games don't sell that well.

You're also using an attach rate metric which is awful.

Those 15M people buying CoD on the PS4 will not play the same games as everyone else.

This doesn't count people who have bought the game used, get it free etc.
 

Journey

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Did the difference between PS4 and Xbox One, or the difference between PS4 Pro and X1X matter in the end? to some it didn't, but some people want the best console for their multiplats 🤷‍♂️
 
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martino

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Again, based on your logic, most people don't care about games period because most games don't sell that well.

You're also using an attach rate metric which is awful.

Those 15M people buying CoD on the PS4 will not play the same games as everyone else.

This doesn't count people who have bought the game used, get it free etc.
Put dumb reasoning in my mouth will not prevent people who to use their brain to use it.
It's just use math
16 is not 50+.
Let's go your way with a very generous every copy is played by 2 persons (to cover all other method of acquisition) it's 32m.
And the stretch here is also to transform one buy into a locked loyal fan. (can you positive bias become even more positive than that ?)
In fact if it's half the sales we are already at really good level.
if you add also overlapping ...
Again majority don't care that much don't mean it doesn't count.
You want it all for your loved logo....but it's you who put the most positive bias to reach your narrative.
 
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DForce

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Put dumb reasoning in my mouth will not prevent people who to use their brain to use it.
It's just use math
16 is not 50+.
Let's go your way with a very generous every copy is played by 2 persons (to cover all other method of acquisition) it's 32m.
And the stretch here is also to transform one buy into a locked loyal fan. (can you positive bias become even more positive than that ?)
In fact if it's half the sales we are already at really good level.
You're making no sense.

10 million copies sold is a lot.

I already show you the top selling games in the US on the PS4 and there are two PS exclusives on here. That alone proves that PS exclusives are selling well and this install base argument people use to prove how exclusives aren't important never works.

If you think 10 million copies sold are bad, then you think 16 million sales from COD is bad, too because 84 million people are not playing CoD.

This logic never works and it fails. If you use sales figures to prove exclusives are not important, then you have to do the same thing for multiplatform games, too.
 

martino

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You're making no sense.

10 million copies sold is a lot.

I already show you the top selling games in the US on the PS4 and there are two PS exclusives on here. That alone proves that PS exclusives are selling well and this install base argument people use to prove how exclusives aren't important never works.

If you think 10 million copies sold are bad, then you think 16 million sales from COD is bad, too because 84 million people are not playing CoD.

This logic never works and it fails. If you use sales figures to prove exclusives are not important, then you have to do the same thing for multiplatform games, too.
Did i said 10 millions sales is a bad number ?
Again moving the goalpost.
It's really good but is it majority ? is a exclusive sale a locked loyal fan ?
can you avoid beat around the bush and answer that ?
 
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Panajev2001a

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Did i said 10 millions sales is a bad number ?
Again moving the goalpost.
It's really good but is it majority ? is a exclusive sale a locked loyal fan ?
can you avoid beat around the bush and answer that ?

Sony is not Nintendo, their consoles cannot sustain themselves without any third party, but they are for some people a direct or indirect tipping point.

They complete the ecosystem, help pave the way for third parties, and fill the void some of them leave. They can afford not to sell and generate high critical or fan cult following at times too.

ZywyPL ZywyPL not sure why, but apparently the truth in here fills you with exciting laughter: only reasonable explanation :LOL:.

I am not sure what is the point you are arguing: on one side XGS studios buying spree is met with excitement and people jump up and down whenever The Initiative is mentioned or Turn10’s growth and and in this thread you are downplaying platform exclusives as a factor (forgetting we have over 25 years of history to see their effect on the platform they were on). Does arguing for something and it’s opposite cause you any trouble or is it just rationalised as one thing is good for Sony and the other good for Xbox and this better?
 
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DForce

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Did i said 10 millions sales is bad number ?
Again moving the goalpost.
It's really good but is it majority ? is a exclusive sale a locked loyal fan ?
can you avoid beat around the bush and answer that ?


No, you have been moving goalpost ever since

Here:


10M+ for 100M+ console...majority don't care even if you choose an improbable scenario where there is no overlapping between people buying those different game.
the majority choose ps for others reasons....and all reasons were in favor of ps4 when it mattered the most.

You used this metric to show that the majority doesn't care about exclusives, but you're not doing the same with mulitplatform titles.

If we were to go by this metric, then that would mean no one cares about multiplatform games.

THAT is the point.
 

martino

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No, you have been moving goalpost ever since

Here:




You used this metric to show that the majority doesn't care about exclusives, but you're not doing the same with mulitplatform titles.

If we were to go by this metric, then that would mean no one cares about multiplatform games.

THAT is the point.
It was in the context of exclusives but i wasn't limiting it to exclusives.
Most people don't care about a game...seems obvious.
But most people will care more about 99% of third party games over 1% exclusives.
 
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DForce

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It was in the context of exclusives but i wasn't limiting it to exclusives.
Most people don't care about a game...seems obvious.
But most people will care more about 99% of third party games over 1% exclusives.
Once again, you're making no sense. If no one cares about the exclusives, then no one cares about other games that sell nearly the same.

But you're clearly thinking about this all wrong.

1% of those exclusives are only available on one platform.

So if Xbox and PlayStation offers nearly the same games, then what's going to be the deciding factor between the two consoles?

That's where exclusives come in. There's a reason why console sales receive a huge boost when a big triple exclusive tile is released..... and that has to do with exclusives.
 
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martino

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I am not sure what is the point you are arguing: on one side XGS studios buying spree is met with excitement and people jump up and down whenever The Initiative is mentioned or Turn10’s growth and and in this thread you are downplaying platform exclusives as a factor (forgetting we have over 25 years of history to see their effect on the platform they were on). Does arguing for something and it’s opposite cause you any trouble or is it just rationalised as one thing is good for Sony and the other good for Xbox and this better?

I doubt you have seen me anything other than skeptic about that for now.
In my history you wil find more claims saying easier way for MS to get some share back is power and price.
it's what killed them when it mattered this gen.
if ratio is not 2+ to 1 there will be even less exclusives along the gen making them even less important when you have to choose a platform
 
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Bankai

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sure, xbox one ran at 900p vs 1080p on ps4, with less than 1TF diference, not a big diference...
anywho, excited for both upcoming consoles

Sigh. IT IS ALL RELATIVE BRUH :messenger_kissing_smiling:

PS4 = 1.84 tflops
XboxOne = 1.31 tflops
= 0.53 tflops differential. And here comes the kicker: 0.53 tflops = 40% of the total amount of tflops of the XboxOne.

Not so surprising now huh. Of course PS4 often ran games @ a higher resolution (what also helped was the faster pool of RAM on PS4 of course)

PS5 = 10.28 tflops
Xbox Series X = 12 tflops
= 1.72 tflops differential. This is 16.7% of the total ammount of tflops in PS5.

Therefor, I also think the actual difference in games will be smaller next-gen compared to current gen.

I do think Xbox Series X will have one big advantage over PS5: more capable raytracing (smaller FPS hit). Because of it having actually more CU's (52 VS 36).
 

psorcerer

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From what we know about AMD raytracing, it doesn't matter how fast you can run your clocks if you don't have the memory bandwidth to power it. XSX has 25 % higher memory bandwidth and 44 % more CU. It will be vastly superior in raytracing workloads. You can't calculate more rays by running higher clocks if you can't get the data to the RAM fast enough.

From what we know about ray tracing it's exactly the opposite:
1. Memory bandwidth doesn't matter because access is random and random access doesn't scale with bandwidth.
2. Higher clocks are much better, because calculations are more demanding and again it can save memory latency if you have fewer high-clocked units.

Yet I'm not saying that PS5 RT will be "better" than XBSX RT merely because they will both suck pretty badly and any minuscule difference between them is not going to save anyone.
 

martino

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That answer was more to ZywyPL ZywyPL than you, I was hoping it has been clear, apologies if not. You seem to be consistent and I appreciate that, although we disagree :).
Imo ms is not doing it to sell hardware.
They need people to stay subscribed every month you need them because but they can't count on big third party games day one for that (at least not in current context)
 
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Goliathy

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Sigh. IT IS ALL RELATIVE BRUH :messenger_kissing_smiling:

PS4 = 1.84 tflops
XboxOne = 1.31 tflops
= 0.53 tflops differential. And here comes the kicker: 0.53 tflops = 40% of the total amount of tflops of the XboxOne.

Not so surprising now huh. Of course PS4 often ran games @ a higher resolution (what also helped was the faster pool of RAM on PS4 of course)

PS5 = 10.28 tflops
Xbox Series X = 12 tflops
= 1.72 tflops differential. This is 16.7% of the total ammount of tflops in PS5.

Therefor, I also think the actual difference in games will be smaller next-gen compared to current gen.

I do think Xbox Series X will have one big advantage over PS5: more capable raytracing (smaller FPS hit). Because of it having actually more CU's (52 VS 36).

This is just wrong though.

Again, PS5 is not 10.28 TFLOPS sustained, so we do not know how often it sits there, we should use the base clock.

And also, its very improtant how those TFLOPs have been achieved. DF actually tested similar graphic cards on PC, where we had one overclocked GPU vs. a non-overclocked GPU, they showed that 10 TF from 36 compute units leads to less performance than 10 TF from 40 compute units. Xbox has 12 TF from 52 compute units. That's because it just doesn't scale very well.
This also applies to Ray tracing, because of the higher amount of CUs, the XSX has much more RT hardware, so we will see a huge difference there.
Also, don't forget stuff like VRS, VRR etc. We don't know yet, what PS5 will have and what not, so we have to wait.

And what you should not forget:
You can still do a lot more work with 2TF's RDNA2 than you can with 500GF's of GCN.
RDNA2 is much more efficient, even looking at GCN vs RDNA 1.0 the difference was huge, with RDNA 2.0 the difference will be much bigger.

So, the 2TFLOPS difference between two RDNA 2.0 GPUs would be something like something around 4 TFLOPS when comparing those two GCN cards, because with RDNA 2.0 TFLOPs you can do much more.

Also, XSX has a much higher memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.

Again, we will see when the games arrive, but we should set the math straight and don't post some wishful thinking.

Let's wait when the games arrive and then we will see a difference.
 

Ogbert

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The X Box will be more powerful. MS have sunk their entire gaming strategy and long term approach around having the stronger console. Their adverts introduce the machine like it’s an Aston Martin - the best you can buy (outside a PC super car).

MS’ problem will continue to be games. No point having the best console if you release utter shit like Bleeding Edge on it.

They need two to three absolutely stellar titles in the first year. Their version of Breath of the Wild.
 
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FranXico

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Again, PS5 is not 10.28 TFLOPS sustained, so we do not know how often it sits there, we should use the base clock.
Are you referring to the 2.23GHz clock frequency? Because Teraflops are a theoretical maximum.

DF actually tested similar graphic cards on PC,
RDNA1 cards are similar to RDNA2 in power consumption? That's new.

So, the 2TFLOPS difference between two RDNA 2.0 GPUs would be something like something around 4 TFLOPS when comparing those two GCN cards, because with RDNA 2.0 TFLOPs you can do much more.

And 10TF would be 20TF then (using your gains inflating math), making that 4TF as redundant as 2TF compared to 10TF.
 
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MCplayer

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This is just wrong though.

Again, PS5 is not 10.28 TFLOPS sustained, so we do not know how often it sits there, we should use the base clock.

And also, its very improtant how those TFLOPs have been achieved. DF actually tested similar graphic cards on PC, where we had one overclocked GPU vs. a non-overclocked GPU, they showed that 10 TF from 36 compute units leads to less performance than 10 TF from 40 compute units. Xbox has 12 TF from 52 compute units. That's because it just doesn't scale very well.
This also applies to Ray tracing, because of the higher amount of CUs, the XSX has much more RT hardware, so we will see a huge difference there.
Also, don't forget stuff like VRS, VRR etc. We don't know yet, what PS5 will have and what not, so we have to wait.

And what you should not forget:
You can still do a lot more work with 2TF's RDNA2 than you can with 500GF's of GCN.
RDNA2 is much more efficient, even looking at GCN vs RDNA 1.0 the difference was huge, with RDNA 2.0 the difference will be much bigger.

So, the 2TFLOPS difference between two RDNA 2.0 GPUs would be something like something around 4 TFLOPS when comparing those two GCN cards, because with RDNA 2.0 TFLOPs you can do much more.

Also, XSX has a much higher memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.

Again, we will see when the games arrive, but we should set the math straight and don't post some wishful thinking.

Let's wait when the games arrive and then we will see a difference.
THANK YOU finally someone gets my first post!
 
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ZywyPL

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ZywyPL ZywyPL not sure why, but apparently the truth in here fills you with exciting laughter: only reasonable explanation :LOL:.

I stopped fighting the lost fight, no point, after a month I'm just sick and tired of it already, while the die-hard fans will believe what they want to believe, so all I can do is just laugh. I'm starting to understand why the arrogant so-called PCMR is calling console-only gamers as "console plebs" - most of the guys indeed are poor when it comes to principal knowledge, or don't even have it at all, and will believe anything a company representative in a white shirt says, or create such an outstanding spins and theories my eyes bleed and my sides hurt while reading them. But I don't care anymore, now I just laugh. The only shame is that GAF doesn't have a separate post reactions whether you laugh at the posts because they are actually funny, or you laugh at the clowns and the BS they wrote. Consoles since 2013 are closed-spec PCs, so we have either a glimpse of what's coming or even first-hand examples/evidences how the shit works, but whatever, keep the joke posts coming.
 

Panajev2001a

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I stopped fighting the lost fight, no point, after a month I'm just sick and tired of it already, while the die-hard fans will believe what they want to believe, so all I can do is just laugh. I'm starting to understand why the arrogant so-called PCMR is calling console-only gamers as "console plebs" - most of the guys indeed are poor when it comes to principal knowledge, or don't even have it at all, and will believe anything a company representative in a white shirt says, or create such an outstanding spins and theories my eyes bleed and my sides hurt while reading them. But I don't care anymore, now I just laugh. The only shame is that GAF doesn't have a separate post reactions whether you laugh at the posts because they are actually funny, or you laugh at the clowns and the BS they wrote. Consoles since 2013 are closed-spec PCs, so we have either a glimpse of what's coming or even first-hand examples/evidences how the shit works, but whatever, keep the joke posts coming.

Ok, fair. I just thought you wanted to rationalise your comments and argue your points (like with the 8 TFLOPS and Cerny’s half floats comments related points you made earlier). I will have to surrender to the idea that you want to make bold eye catching points but will not argue them: scathing point made with little to no supporting data and if challenged it turns into a game of deflection, dodging, and “emotional fanboy” accusations

Whether it is because you never believed those but just wanted to gaslight the thread with them and try to piss people off or not it is up to you.
 
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Kumomeme

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Not what i'm saying.
Data show most people don't play even the games with most sales exclusives or not.(even gtaV is far from it)
It's a whole package that make the choice
And exclusive don't weight that much into it.
And that loyal fan are difficult to count and the number is overblown by them.
If it were the case exclusives would have a lot more sales
This is what I'm saying.
Again how many loyal ps fan do you think there are ? i'm curious.
you can guess it by comparing their console sales at each generation

good value with proven track record bring loyal customer...although people can switch side fast..but it took more than 1 generation to build all of these

exclusives matter..denied all you cant...its the fact...infact, their titles selling like hot cake, i wonder why some of it even get live action movie/tv series
 
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Justin9mm

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The X Box will be more powerful. MS have sunk their entire gaming strategy and long term approach around having the stronger console. Their adverts introduce the machine like it’s an Aston Martin - the best you can buy (outside a PC super car).

MS’ problem will continue to be games. No point having the best console if you release utter shit like Bleeding Edge on it.

They need two to three absolutely stellar titles in the first year. Their version of Breath of the Wild.
Good luck to them when those 1st party titles are still developed around the OG Xbox One lol
 

Bumblebeetuna

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This is just wrong though.

Again, PS5 is not 10.28 TFLOPS sustained, so we do not know how often it sits there, we should use the base clock.

And also, its very improtant how those TFLOPs have been achieved. DF actually tested similar graphic cards on PC, where we had one overclocked GPU vs. a non-overclocked GPU, they showed that 10 TF from 36 compute units leads to less performance than 10 TF from 40 compute units. Xbox has 12 TF from 52 compute units. That's because it just doesn't scale very well.
This also applies to Ray tracing, because of the higher amount of CUs, the XSX has much more RT hardware, so we will see a huge difference there.
Also, don't forget stuff like VRS, VRR etc. We don't know yet, what PS5 will have and what not, so we have to wait.

And what you should not forget:
You can still do a lot more work with 2TF's RDNA2 than you can with 500GF's of GCN.
RDNA2 is much more efficient, even looking at GCN vs RDNA 1.0 the difference was huge, with RDNA 2.0 the difference will be much bigger.

So, the 2TFLOPS difference between two RDNA 2.0 GPUs would be something like something around 4 TFLOPS when comparing those two GCN cards, because with RDNA 2.0 TFLOPs you can do much more.

Also, XSX has a much higher memory bandwidth. Don't forget that.

Again, we will see when the games arrive, but we should set the math straight and don't post some wishful thinking.

Let's wait when the games arrive and then we will see a difference.

excuse me, where does the magic of the SSD fit in here. How many flops does that add? Also the custom engineering Sony did, since, if you go by how people are talking, apparently MS did zero.
 
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MCplayer

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excuse me, where does the magic of the SSD fit in here. How many flops does that add? Also the custom engineering Sony did, since, if you go by how people are talking, apparently MS did zero.
faster ssd will only matter in loading times, ssd wont benefit much if the processor can't process assets fast enough for 5GBs or 9GBs speeds. (I think at least)
 

Bumblebeetuna

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faster ssd will only matter in loading times, ssd wont benefit much if the processor can't process assets fast enough for 5GBs or 9GBs speeds. (I think at least)

But GAF has been saying only on PS5 can you experience new gameplay possibilities and much bigger richer worlds thanks to the SSD
 

onQ123

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faster ssd will only matter in loading times, ssd wont benefit much if the processor can't process assets fast enough for 5GBs or 9GBs speeds. (I think at least)

Can y'all stop saying this dumb stuff?

Devs on both sides already said that SSDs are not just about faster load times
 
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Thirty7ven

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faster ssd will only matter in loading times, ssd wont benefit much if the processor can't process assets fast enough for 5GBs or 9GBs speeds. (I think at least)

What processor is this you are talking about?

Indeed, you can travel in the future with a fast enough SSD as well.

While time travel is an exclusive feature of CLOUD gaming and its "negative latency", SSD is all about density.
 

onQ123

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Indeed, you can travel in the future with a fast enough SSD as well.

So you would rather hold on to something that was lost in translation as a reason to discredit engineers & devs who have repeatedly said SSD isn't just about faster loading times?
 

cireza

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So you would rather hold on to something that was lost in translation as a reason to discredit engineers & devs who have repeatedly said SSD isn't just about faster loading times?
It simplifies asset management, that's it. What are you expecting ? It allows faster access to data, not even instant. This is not going to up the resolution or framerate of games.
 

psorcerer

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It simplifies asset management, that's it. What are you expecting ? It allows faster access to data, not even instant. This is not going to up the resolution or framerate of games.

Resolution and framerate have nothing to do with better graphics (within reasonable range). Unless your ideal game is a ray-traced cubic world of Minecraft.
Quake 2 looks dated no matter how many RTX effects are added.
 
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MCplayer

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Can y'all stop saying this dumb stuff?

Devs on both sides already said that SSDs are not just about faster load times
sure, but you know most devs are just like gamers, most of them have a preference platform. Some say PS5 is better, others say xbox is better, we are all in the same shith*le
 

Thirty7ven

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It simplifies asset management, that's it. What are you expecting ? It allows faster access to data, not even instant. This is not going to up the resolution or framerate of games.

Quake 2 on a 2080Ti officially the best looking game ever made.
 
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MCplayer

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But GAF has been saying only on PS5 can you experience new gameplay possibilities and much bigger richer worlds thanks to the SSD
new gameplay possibilities... lets be serious, thats like saying (in a wolrd where FPS doesn't exist) PS5 will be able to play in first person in a shooter game and xbox won't, which in reality it can.
What gameplay possibilities are they talking about.
The only thing I can imagine is when finishing a game, PS5 have GOD mode, where you can travel the map at hyperspeeds, in which the PS5 SSD can load them assests fast enough, if the xbox ssd can't already.

Much richer worlds, depends, playstation might have more assets, xbox might have more AI due to faster cpu, each console can have more of whatever, this is just talking. Honestly I'm here talking too, only the games will tell the truth when they come out
 
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RaginPwner944

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or that, forgot ps4 pro was 4.2TF, ok thats more comparable to next gen TF diference

I mean, isn't that a great example? Yes, they both can play/run the same games, but framerate and resolution differences are pretty apparent between the two systems. Yes, there are some titles that run "better" on PS4 Pro but those are few and are all titles that were specifically sponsored by SONY. Destiny 2 for example comes to mind when thinking of the differences. Resolution and framerate is very clear.
 

MCplayer

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They were never important.
Unless you're going to argue that any current game looks better than The Avatar blu-ray movie 720p@24fps.
honestly I had more fun in game in the OG xbox and ps2 era, but maybe just because I was a kid, although I didnotice the frame pacing and jaggy res, I didn't mind, only did at the end oof x360 and ps3 where it was becoming a big topic, sadly