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[Ogbert]

The difference between the Switch and PS5 is like the difference between the Vita and PS4.

They are appealing to entirely different markets and you'll see more evidence of this once the direct happens next week. Let's see how many bite-size jrpgs, remasters, indie ports, and farming simulators we see as the Switch makes yet another death rattle for a new year when it should have had a successor already.

Like what are we even arguing here lol. Are you guys in the same reality as the rest of us?


No, not until now. This separation slowed down during the PS2 generation and only sped back up because the Wii was a slightly better gamecube in specs, which offset it against the PS3/360 games. That's why people always made the separation of both. One one side, you have PS and Xbox, the other side you have Nintendo. Regardless of who is winning or losing the sales fight, this separation has existed for 3 entire generations now.

Yes, and Nintendo themselves are the one carrying the 'fun game' market on their platform. That is worrying because there are fun games on stronger systems that Switch owners don't have access to. I mean for crying out loud the switch is being thrown scraps by the larger publishers. They are literally struggling to meet the standards of the AAA industry. A lot of the newer announcements lately are either saying 'maybe switch later' or 'streaming on switch' or simply 'no switch'.


Yes, you're right here! And those console owners buy the system they want depending on multiple factors of where they are in life and what they want out of the system. Which was part of my original point and the car analogy.

Guys I know you're better than this. C'mon.

There’s an element of truth in what you say, certainly in the West. In as much as people will own a PC/Xbox/Playstation but then add a Switch alongside it.

The mistake you make is in diminishing their position as lesser. You dismiss them as carrying the ‘fun market’. Last time I checked, that was about the only thing that matters. No one is swapping a Mario/Zelda or Splatoon for some turgid AAA bullshit with dreary politics.

And to be clear, the reason Sony and MS hold the West is because of CoD, FIFA and Fortnite. Their first party titles are inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.

 

[yurinka]

In FY22/23 Sony sold 264M software units, whereas Nintendo sold 213M units worldwide. The Nintendo number probably contains more first party than Sony's and Nintendo probably moved more software in previous years this gen, while the PS5 was struggling.

Sony wasn't struggling last FY, it was making more money than Nintendo in their gaming division, selling more consoles, more games for their console and also making more money with their game sub.

Launch aligned PS4 moved more software than Switch on its first 7 years, around half a billion games more. Launch aligned PS5 is outselling PS4 in hardware and software. Meaning PS5 is also moving more software than Switch.

Oh yeah, and the Nintendo number doesn't include digital but the Sony one does.

"*The numbers shown above are worldwide consolidated sales in units life-to-date." = Nintendo number also includes digital sales

 

[Woopah]

Oh yeah, and the Nintendo number doesn't include digital but the Sony one does

*The numbers shown above are worldwide consolidated sales in units life-to-date." = Nintendo number also includes digital sales

It includes digital for games with retail versions.

It doesn't include sales for games that are digital only.

 

[Deerock71]

Those that don't think the Switch sucks dollars out of the same market as the other consoles are either in denial or not being intellectually honest.

 

[March Climber]

There’s an element of truth in what you say, certainly in the West. In as much as people will own a PC/Xbox/Playstation but then add a Switch alongside it.

The mistake you make is in diminishing their position as lesser. You dismiss them as carrying the ‘fun market’. Last time I checked, that was about the only thing that matters. No one is swapping a Mario/Zelda or Splatoon for some turgid AAA bullshit with dreary politics.

I just want to clear things up here. When I'm saying Nintendo is carrying the 'fun market' I specifically mean on their platform. Switch without Nintendo's output and without the inclusion of most AAA games, would be a dead platform or at best it would be seen as one of those gimmick handhelds that is for hipsters only. Most of us I think could agree on that.

Regarding your second point I think many here on GAF, including yourself, will use casual audiences as a rebuttal point, but will then pretend like these same casuals don't buy and play those 'turgid AAA bullshit games with dreary politics'. You can't have both. That is such a large disconnect to where many people don't realize they are in an online bubble with that type of argument.

It's all part of the same market.

Look at any report from Circana, Famitsu, Media Create or GSD and they include PS5, Switch and Xbox Series in the same market and same rankings.

Its the same on the software side. They don't list a seperate market for JRPGs, indie games and farming games. They include those in the same market as platformers and action games.

Right, and there were select games on both Vita and PS4. That doesn't make them equals in the overall market. They aren't appealing to the same audiences.

 

[yurinka]

It includes digital for games with retail versions.

It doesn't include sales for games that are digital only.

No, the Nintendo website and their IR reports doesn't say that anywhere. They say instead what I posted.

 

[Woopah]

I just want to clear things up here. When I'm saying Nintendo is carrying the 'fun market' I specifically mean on their platform. Switch without Nintendo's output and without the inclusion of most AAA games, would be a dead platform or at best it would be seen as one of those gimmick handhelds that is for hipsters only. Most of us I think could agree on that.

Regarding your second point I think many here on GAF, including yourself, will use casual audiences as a rebuttal point, but will then pretend like these same casuals don't buy and play those 'turgid AAA bullshit games with dreary politics'. You can't have both. That is such a large disconnect to where many people don't realize they are in an online bubble with that type of argument.


Right, and there were select games on both Vita and PS4. That doesn't make them equals in the overall market. They aren't appealing to the same audiences.

They are both targeting people who want dedicated video game devices.

Sony wants people to play FIFA, Minecraft and Fortnite on Playstation, not Switch. They want open-world fans to buy a PS5 and Horizon 2, not buy a Switch and play TOTK.

Sane for Nintendo. They don't want JRPG fans getting a PS5 to play Final Fantasy Rebirth. They want those same people to buy a Switch to play SMT V or Dragon Quest Monsters instead.

That's why Nintendo and Sony both spend money to get content that their competitors won't have.

No, the Nintendo website and their IR reports doesn't say that anywhere. They say instead what I posted.

In their report it says (emphasis mine):

"Software sales units include both packaged and downloadable versions of software, and do not include download-only software or add-on content."

Its point 1 on page 9 of their latest financial report.

 

[Ogbert]

Regarding your second point I think many here on GAF, including yourself, will use casual audiences as a rebuttal point, but will then pretend like these same casuals don't buy and play those 'turgid AAA bullshit games with dreary politics'. You can't have both. That is such a large disconnect to where many people don't realize they are in an online bubble with that type of argument.

They might well buy those turgid AAA games once they own a PS, but they buy a PS to play CoD, FIFA and Fortnite.

People buy a Switch to play Mario, Zelda and Pokémon.

Not sure what people buy an Xbox for. And that’s MS’s problem.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

Sony wasn't struggling last FY, it was making more money than Nintendo in their gaming division, selling more consoles, more games for their console and also making more money with their game sub.

Launch aligned PS4 moved more software than Switch on its first 7 years, around half a billion games more. Launch aligned PS5 is outselling PS4 in hardware and software. Meaning PS5 is also moving more software than Switch.

It wasn't said that Sony was struggling last FY, but that Sony was struggling in previous years during the epidemic (to sell PS5s and PS5 software at least).

Launch aligned (and by any metric) Switch has outsold PS5 and PS4 hardware by a fair margin worldwide. I'm a bit too lazy to look into software sales comparisons to be honest! But I wonder why software attach rate (as you say) is better for Sony? I'm not sure it is but I do remember reading Sony game division have been making more money than Nintendo, I'll give you that. But there could be all sorts of reasons for this not just attach rate.

It includes digital for games with retail versions.

It doesn't include sales for games that are digital only.

Ah yes, I think this is correct.

 

[MrA]

With the sales of this quarter the sales of Switch are 1200M.

When PS4 had 7 years, in 4 and a half of these years listed here sold 1250M. But out of these first 7 years, there are 2 years and a half of sales not listed there there.

Sony had in those listed PS4 years over 200M games sold per year.

Meaning, on its first 7 years PS4 should have sold around half a billion games more than Switch. Half a billion games are way more.

And PS4 didn't end selling games when they released PS5 and started to merge their software sales with PS5: it will have a way longer life cycle than Switch, as always happened in previous generations.

no they didn't ps4 total software was 645 million by the end of 2017

so 1387 vs 1205,
plus if you read Nintendo's statement
3.
Software sales units include both packaged and downloadable versions of software.,

 

[Pop]

Sony needs a new handheld

Clearly Japanese love portable devices

 

[Woopah]

It wasn't said that Sony was struggling last FY, but that Sony was struggling in previous years during the epidemic (to sell PS5s and PS5 software at least).

Launch aligned (and by any metric) Switch has outsold PS5 and PS4 hardware by a fair margin worldwide. I'm a bit too lazy to look into software sales comparisons to be honest! But I wonder why software attach rate (as you say) is better for Sony? I'm not sure it is but I do remember reading Sony game division have been making more money than Nintendo, I'll give you that. But there could be all sorts of reasons for this not just attach rate.



Ah yes, I think this is correct.

Attach rate for PS4 will be higher than Switch, as they'll sell a similar amount of software but on a smaller userbase. I would say this is most likely due to Sony's superior third party support.

As for "making money", it depends on your definition.

Revenue

Sony reports higher revenue as they sell hardware, software and subscriptions at higher prices. Plus their revenue contains 100% of digital third party revenue, while Nintendo's only includes royalties for third party revenue

I would imagine Sony's MTX revenue is significantly higher than Nintendo's as well.

Profit

Nintendo's profits are higher since their hardware costs less to produce and a greater proportion of their software sales are first party (which have higher margins than third party software).

Of course, Sony is at the peak of their hardware lifecycle and Nintendo is at the end, so that also affects things. I would not be surprised if Sony has a higher profit margin on hardware than Nintendo in 2025.

Basically they are two massively sucessful companies so "making more money" is up for interpretation.

 

[Astral Dog]

 

[Kerotan]

I would say that is a seperate matter. WII U was still competing with the PS4, even though the PS4 was far far more successful.

There were plenty of differences between the 3DS and the Vita, including power levels, software library and features.

That didn't prevent the Vita from being a primary competitor to the 3DS.

There are less differences between these two dedicated traditional handhelds and a hybrid Vs a traditional home console. It's honestly like comparing Volkswagen golf to a Mercedes. They are secondary competitors. I've studied enough economics to know this. Don't take offence just because the switch isn't a direct competitor. Which I'll repeat again still means it's a competitor in the general sense.

 

[Gaiff]

No, not until now. This separation slowed down during the PS2 generation and only sped back up because the Wii was a slightly better gamecube in specs, which offset it against the PS3/360 games. That's why people always made the separation of both. One one side, you have PS and Xbox, the other side you have Nintendo. Regardless of who is winning or losing the sales fight, this separation has existed for 3 entire generations now.

No and that’s false. Just how old are you? JRPGs were practically non-existent on Sega consoles and Square barely made games for them. The NES/Master System and Genesis/SNES had very different libraries yet they competed in the same market. That the Switch and PS5 have different games doesn’t matter. People buy 1 system and weigh the pros and cons and buying a Switch is often at the detriment of a PS5 or SX.

Yes, you're right here! And those console owners buy the system they want depending on multiple factors of where they are in life and what they want out of the system. Which was part of my original point and the car analogy.

And what do you think would happen if the Switch didn’t exist? You think there would be 140M fewer systems sold? Or are you smart enough to figure out that most of the people who bought the Switch would have bought a PS5 or SX instead?

 

[ZiggyPop1991]

So according to you… Third party games is what determines if consoles are competitions? And the Wii was not a competition for the PS3/360?

Correct. They are both selling entertainment systems but they aren’t “directly” competing with each other because both offer things the other doesn’t. You’re aware of this yourself. You’re just hell bent on getting people to say Nintendo is champ across the board. Truth is. At this moment they aren’t. You literally see people their system is the perfect companion system since as of now there are big 3rd party games (especially the yearly ones) that aren’t offered on their system.

Also. Between last and current gen. People have adopted digital libraries which was almost a shoe in for them to stay within that consoles respective ecosystem. Or they jumped to pc. The switch is also a hybrid console that offered multiple skus from portable only. To a better looking oled model. McDonald’s sell food and probably the most out of every food chain. They make take some of their market share but a 5 star restaurant is not trying to chase McDonald’s success.

 

[Little Chicken]

Switch is great, only let down by horrible online infrastructure and ageing specs.

I hope they've ensured backward compatibility for their next console.

 

[AJUMP23]

The Switch is a great system. Nintendo used old hardware and made great content.

 

[Celine]

We are living in a era with an unprecedented high number of third-party game releases shared between the Nintendo ecosystem and PlayStation ecosystem.

Some stats from Media Create Top 1000 best selling games at retail in 2022 in Japan:

Total number of NSW and PS4 game releases: 871
- of which NSW game releases without PS4 version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 444
- of which PS4 game releases without NSW version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 151
- of which "cross-platform" game releases (NSW and PS4 versions in Top 1000): 276 (number of pairs: 138)
- of which NSW first-party: 64
- of which PS4 first-party: 25

About 47.2% of the PS4 third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding NSW version in the list.
About 26.6% of the NSW third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding PS4 version in the list.


Total number of NSW and PS5 game releases: 705
- of which NSW game releases without PS5 version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 548
- of which PS5 game releases without NSW version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 89
- of which "cross-platform" game releases (NSW and PS5 versions in Top 1000): 68 (number of pairs: 34)
- of which NSW first-party: 64
- of which PS5 first-party: 14

About 31.2% of the PS5 third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding NSW version in the list.
About 6.6% of the NSW third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding PS5 version in the list.

Total number of PS4 and PS5 game releases: 412
- of which PS4 game releases without PS5 version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 200
- of which PS5 game releases without NSW version in Top 1000 ("exclusives"): 34
- of which "cross-platform" game releases (PS4 and PS5 versions in Top 1000): 178 (number of pairs: 89)
- of which PS4 first-party: 25
- of which PS5 first-party: 14

About 75.2% of the PS5 third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding PS4 version in the list.
About 31.1% of the PS4 third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2022 had a correspoding PS5 version in the list.

NOTE:
Keep in mind that the compilation of the titles is such to create some discrepancies in which some "exclusives" aren't really exclusive.
Budget price releases, special late releases skew the stats (I would need to do a manual check to be accurate).
Other times only one version of older multi platform games hit the top 1000 (for example: NSW Trials of Mana #).
The real cross-platform percentages are surely higher.

For example the two entries are counted as "exclusives" due to the naming convention, even though it's the same game:
PS5 Grand Theft Auto V
PS4 Grand Theft Auto V: Premium Online Edition <Grand Theft Auto V \ Grand Theft Auto Online> [2][Reprint]

To understand the contrast with a decade ago (Media Create Top 1000 for 2013)

About 1.6% of the PSV third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding 3DS version in the list.
About 1.0% of the 3DS third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PSV version in the list.

About 1.8% of the PSP third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding 3DS version in the list.
About 2.5% of the 3DS third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PSP version in the list.

About 23.6% of the PSV third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PS3 version in the list.
About 10.6% of the PS3 third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PSV version in the list.

About 11.7% of the PSV third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PSP version in the list.
About 6.0% of the PSP third-party game relases in Media Create Top 1000 for 2013 had a correspoding PSV version in the list.

EDIT: Fixed the wonky math, added PS4/PS5 comparison and added note.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

You can say what you want but I still miss the days of neat little stationary Nintendo consoles. WiiU might have been a total desaster for the company, but the hardware design was almost perfect in my book. Absolutely silent, stays cool during gaming sessions, and takes up very little space, fits everywhere perfectly. I'd be absolutely fine with giving up some performance for that.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

They are both selling entertainment systems but they aren’t “directly” competing with each other because both offer things the other doesn’t. [...] McDonald’s sell food and probably the most out of every food chain. They make take some of their market share but a 5 star restaurant is not trying to chase McDonald’s success.

I wasn't buying your view up until this, but it's a good analogy, you have point.

That said, there's probably a direct correlation between Switch's success and Xbox's failure. In another world where Nintendo doesn't exist, I bet Xbox pulls in better numbers.

 

[apple_of_enlightenment]

We are living in a era with an unprecedented high number of third-party game releases shared between the Nintendo ecosystem and PlayStation ecosystem.

Yes, arguably there's only two platforms: Unity and Unreal.

 

[LakeOf9]

According to me, multiple factors I mentioned in my previous post determine that Switch is not a direct competitor for current/previous gen PS/XBOX. Not sure why you picked only the one. And yeah, just like Switch, Wii wasn't a direct competitor for PS3/360. Again, emphasis on the word direct. It mainly targeted more casual audience, had weaker hardware, but instead it relied on the then revolutionary Wii Remote.

Wii U, not really. As for GameCube, I think it's the last "traditional" console Nintendo has made and yeah, I would say it was in direct competition with PS2 and original Xbox.

Honestly, it feels like some people here think that saying Nintendo doesn't directly compete means Nintendo is worse or something, but they are completely missing the point. The fact that Switch doesn't directly compete with PS/Xbox doesn't mean it's less successful.

I get what you mean, and to be clear I think you have a good point, but I wouldn’t have the same takeaway as you. I think they ARE in direct competition (especially in a market like Japan), but Nintendo has managed to maintain its position in this competition by differentiating their offering. Basically, the differentiation is a feature of the competition, not an exclusion.

 

[ResurrectedContrarian]

Very cool, prior to the Switch I never thought they’d outdo the DS. Crazy performance.

More, compared to past systems it’s above N64 (32.93M), GC (21.74) and WiiU (13.56M) lifetime numbers.

NintendoLand was amazing, the world was just not ready for it

 

[near]

Sony needs a new handheld

Clearly Japanese love portable devices

Sony is interested in catering to the global market, which happens to behave quite differently to the Japanese one. So in other words, Sony doesn't give a shit about the Japanese market.

 

[//DEVIL//]

Ya know, i barely read the thread about what You said before this. Some people will still not consider ninty as competitor just because ninty is not cool enough for them : ))

I don't consider Nintendo a competition to Sony or MS or PC.

They are in their own different space. Their games usually are more fun than 90% of the games out there. And they are cool. But they really are not in the same space .

There is no proper racing game. No proper fighting game like Tekken or street fighter. ( No Mario Kart and smash don't count . And these are like 6 years old or more if you were to count the WiiU release )
Their sports version of Fifa and whatever are based on ps3 engine and no one buys that.

Are they awesome ? Is Mario Kart and Zelda amazing ? 100%. Some people prefer these games over anything Sony and MS can offer.
But as far as consoles go for hardcore gamers specifically, Nintendo is a must have second system ( or first but a complimentary with another console that most of the cases either ps or pc)

They are not fighting for the same money on consoles. They have their own games under their own universe ( which is an awesome universe )

 

[Woopah]

There are less differences between these two dedicated traditional handhelds and a hybrid Vs a traditional home console. It's honestly like comparing Volkswagen golf to a Mercedes. They are secondary competitors. I've studied enough economics to know this. Don't take offence just because the switch isn't a direct competitor. Which I'll repeat again still means it's a competitor in the general sense.

Why would I take offence?

The DS was anything but a traditional handheld. It still competed with the more traditional PSP.

I would agree that Switch Lite is a secondary competitor to Xbox Series, just like GBA was a secondary competitor to the PS2.

But the Xbox Series, Switch, Switch OLED and PS5 can all be used a home consoles. So in that regard they are primary.

Just like how PS2 competed with home consoles and DVD players, Switch and Switch OLED compete with both home consoles and portable consoles.

 

[Kerotan]

Why would I take offence?

The DS was anything but a traditional handheld. It still competed with the more traditional PSP.

I would agree that Switch Lite is a secondary competitor to Xbox Series, just like GBA was a secondary competitor to the PS2.

But the Xbox Series, Switch, Switch OLED and PS5 can all be used a home consoles. So in that regard they are primary.

Just like how PS2 competed with home consoles and DVD players, Switch and Switch OLED compete with both home consoles and portable consoles.

Nah you don't take offence but some posters definitely do. What was that guys name who used to ruin the weekly sales threads?

 

[Woopah]

Nah you don't take offence but some posters definitely do. What was that guys name who used to ruin the weekly sales threads?

His name began with an n, Nocturn or something?

Would love to know he thinks of the PS5's current sales in Japan.

 

[Kerotan]

His name began with an n, Nocturn or something?

Would love to know he thinks of the PS5's current sales in Japan.

Yeah bro that sounds like him

 

[NightmareFarm]

I called that it would outsell the PS2. It could even hit the 200M mark if the Switch 2 gets delayed until like 2026/2027(which probably wont happen).

 

[iHaunter]

Too bad that according to some, Nintendo is no competition for Sony.

It's not direct competition because it's two different markets. I have a PS5/Switch and rarely touch the switch in general.

 

[peronmls]

As long as there are children there is Nintendo.

 

[RAIDEN1]

No surprises in this, Japanese gaming giants tend to do well in their home market, otherwise the likes of Sega tried and failed (bar the Saturn) Microsoft couldn't conquer there, hell many a western developer has never had a extended strong innings in that territory...(hardware perspective..)