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Nintendo Responds To Smash Bros. Pro's Callout, Wants To Keep Scene Grassroots
- Thread starter Makonero
- Start date
Geno Breaker
Banned
Most people would probably consider them to be basic, essential features that require little effort to implement. Thus, the line of thinking is if Nintendo doesn't do trophies/achievements, there's no way they're gonna put in the effort to support eSports outside of some Invitationals at E3.
Because they'd be pissed the the HD lag is too much or that they removed some glitches, or that they tweaked it in any way.
There's no pleasing certain people. At best, an HD Melee (which would have to be sold to the greater public and therefore not be tuned to current Melee players) would split the base, not replace it.
Professor Beef
Banned
That's a strange leap.
Oh well yeah because everyone hated it! And cried. Obviously I'm in the minority but people still casually love every fighting game with high skill ceilings: I don't think you have to purposefully screw on training wheels! That's just my personal opinion though: I don't think a party game needs to be balanced to people's grandparents
Sure, that's great and good and all but smash seems to work against what the most vocal fans ask for. Melee was a party game that was also fast and could have a high level of play. Also sakurai helped make the game but it was a whole team effort: imo brawl was the first where he really put his foot down on what he wanted the game to be. I totally understand not implementing glitches that make an absurd barrier for entry, but a party game can still be fast/hard and be fun. 200cc Mario Kart 8 is still super fun and great and is obviously a party game. If smash 4 had a 200cc mode or something that'd be fine and great by me!
Im arguing that it's not about a high skill ceiling by design: sakurai personally doesn't like it. The game could still have competitive edge and the massive amount of people who love it would still love it all the same. They could have just straight up had tripping and brawl physics again and it still would've sold like a monster.
My point is that the majority crowd doesn't care about how competitive it CAN get, so why work against having high level play? The answer to "I don't like the bosses" was "play on a literally flat stage"
Not many other devs could get away with that and still have a support team like y'all. My on topic point was that smash would be getting the arms/spla2n/pokken treatment if competitive play was a bigger focus. I think pokken is more of a standard fighting game, but high-level competitive play isn't the absolute focus of arms and Splatoon yet they still CAN have that high of a ceiling because the devs see that people want it.
The casual arms/Splatoon players won't care about whether or not there's a competetive scene just like the casual smash crowd. The cast of smash is fairly balanced but, like all y'all are saying, competition is actively and purposefully placed in the backseat.
My argument is that's dumb as fuck when there even is a huge vocal group who loves the high level play AND all the funny shit sakurai likes. I don't see how the "why not both" gif isn't relevant here!
I'm absolutely in the minority, and I'm really just shitting into the wind, but I feel like Nintendo would show more of the active support hungrybox is shouting at he clouds for if the guy shattering his hands personally making the games didn't actively dislike it.
Geno Breaker
Banned
Based on what? There's no history of Melee fans being insanely picky with their game or lag. People love both the PAL and various NTSC versions, and playing Gamecube/Wii games upscaled on a HDTV/Monitor has far more lag than an HD port would due to upscaling. You'd have a better point to argue if you brought up something like one guy who wanted broken controllers. And what glitches are you referring to? ;:^)
Yeah I know, which is why I personally don't hold that belief. Just thought I'd explain the reasoning behind it, even if it is a little silly.
I agree with you, but my point is that insisting Sakurai is bad for the series because of tripping in brawl (which was bad, yes) is silly when he took it out of 4.
I don't agree at all that all of the extra stuff in 4 is a detriment to the game's competitive side. You can just ignore it for tournaments.
Shadow Puppetry
Member
Melee scene seem to be doing fine without Nintendo doing tournaments. There's always local Smash tournaments.
release melee HD then?
I mean, if you really "want to enable them to put on tournaments", make it easier for them to do so? To run tournaments, they need gamecubes/wiis, melee's gamecube discs, gamecube controllers and hundreds of CRT tvs, archaic stuff.
At the very least, having melee on the latest nintendo console would make it accesible, so that anyone could pick it up and try it, without needing a powerfull pc for dolphin or a gamecube/wii, a melee disc, a gamecube controller, and a f*cking CRT. Compare that with someone who want to try the newest smash game, yeah...
And no, nintendo wouldn't be releasing melee hd "just for them", don't be delusional. Melee had a relly high attach rate on the gamecube and it is very popular nowadays. There's no world in which a melee re release loses money.
Furthermore, melee it's not just "another smash bros game, but with less characters", there's a reason while people still play it, it feels completely different compared to the newer entries in the series, even at a basic level (the physics alone are radically different). It would be great if people could get to play it, i think they would enjoy it.
Unless it's emulated (which brings up other issues, namely the quality of the emulation), they will "remake" the game. They're not releasing an HD remaster and not tweaking it. They would add stuff and people would complain.
And no, between Melee HD and Smash 5 or even Smash 4 Switch, mainstream people will be buying the newer one. So there is no financial incentive to sell a remastered Melee except on virtual console.
So you people think that melee hd would sell 100k or some sh*t?
edit: and why is nostalgia a thing for every game, but, not for melee just because there's newer ones with more characters!?
Geno Breaker
Banned
Just make Melee HD a cheap stopgap between Smash 4 and the inevitable Smash 5. People who are thirsty for Smash on Switch could just get Melee HD and Melee fans would eat that stuff up.
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
Oh no that was just an easy, low hanging fruit, example. The guy can craft some meeean movesets and has a creative vision I was more using tripping as an umbrella example for his design philosophy.
I think 4 could have been just as good, if not better, if the effort put towards custom moves and smash tour (for example) was put towards almost anything else. Even if it was break the targets or adventure mode!
I don't want smash to become street fighter! I just feel like melee (likely due to time constraints) was tight and focused
It's not about taking over grassroots tournaments, but supporting them so they can flourish instead of flounder and draw more people into the game by having events in areas that can't support grassroots level ones. It's about recognizing that a large group of your customers consume games in a certain way and trying to appeal to them by releasing games they actually want instead of slingshotting backwards so hard they dump a bunch of anti-competitive game mechanics into its sequel to try to kill the scene.
And as much as some people want to to stay grassroots so players don't have to behave themselves, it allows toxic communities to fester and push away a lot of people. Hell if the only thing Nintendo forced was deodorant in exchange for official support that would make Melee 1000% more inviting for new players.
And as much as some people want to to stay grassroots so players don't have to behave themselves, it allows toxic communities to fester and push away a lot of people. Hell if the only thing Nintendo forced was deodorant in exchange for official support that would make Melee 1000% more inviting for new players.
BronsonLee
Member
Put Melee HD out on switch but make items necessary and take out Final Destination
Just drive the goddamn knife in
Just drive the goddamn knife in
It's easier when he doesn't have to cover for NCL fuck ups.
People love to portrait Reggie as the bad guy but he's not the one who makes certain stupid decisions, he's just left with the ungrateful task of justifying them to the public... which can be hard sometimes, depending on how big the screw up is.
regarding the bolded:
hahahahahahahahahaha
Dark Ninja
Member
I can't wait for Sakurai to comeback for Smash 5, put tripping back in or some new person to take over and make it more like a party game.
More people watch Melee top cuts on non official streams than people watch or attend official Pokemon VGC/TCG competitions and the number isn't even close yet The Pokemon Company runs those events all year long all over the world. Not bad for an ancient game with zero support.
why would releasing melee HD make them more money if people will watch the gamecube one? what's the difference to nintendo except them spending money to make a game hardly anyone will buy?
They're not going to support the old game when they have a game on a platform that's still selling (specifically Smash 3DS now).
As others said, Melee HD would simply cause controversy because they would inevitably remove wavedashing (at the very least of any gameplay changes), not to mention any balancing for HDMI that would cause the CRT-toting crowd to grumble.
As others said, Melee HD would simply cause controversy because they would inevitably remove wavedashing (at the very least of any gameplay changes), not to mention any balancing for HDMI that would cause the CRT-toting crowd to grumble.
I don't get people who say this so definitively. This isn't a guaranteed thing they would do. And it's not so simple to just "remove it" because it's tied to the directional air dodging system in the game. You'd have to change that entirely to really remove it in an "organic" way and that would change not just the wavedash being there at all but also how the game plays in a competitive setting itself.
I never mentioned releasing Melee HD at all. If they ever did something with a Melee re-release it would likely just be a Virtual Console release. Support isn't just re-releasing games that people want to play that they already have, but supporting tournaments, streams, and players in some capacity.
Street Fighter tournaments generally get a good push by Capcom and the results show, theres a group of people that keep moving game to game because theres reasons to do so and their competitive scenes get good visibility. Half of the reason people still play Melee is because Nintendo never had any reason to move on from it. Brawl was shit and they didn't push 4 enough to absorb the Melee community, so them being very different games (kinda like SF3 to SF4) just split the groups up.
well, had they embraced competitive melee back when it was being played at MLG, and hadn't they gone in the completely opposite direction with brawl, the scene would be more significant nowadays. Had they released melee hd already, the scene could be a little bit bigger nowadays. I mean, they could make things easier for them if they wanted.
HawthorneKitty
Sgt. 2nd Class in the Creep Battalion, Waifu Wars
Ya, Nintendo doesn't do money prizes.
Empyrean Heaven
Member
The problem is that eSports has proven to be big business and companies have embraced that, and Nintendo happens to have one of the most passionately-loved eSports titles out there, and yet they continue to not support them because of bullshit reasoning like them not wanting to scare off new players and/or keep a family-oriented atmosphere. Nintendo continues to be archaic in their thinking that they can only have one or the other, and not both.
Melee is one of the most popular fighting games, in fact I guarantee that you could find a local tournament happening this week if you live in a relatively urban area.
I don't think Nintendo should be held to a standard no other company has, NO ONE supports a 16 year old game competivily and especially not a game that has gotten 2 sequels after it.
again, why is nostalgia a thing for every game, but, not for melee, just because there's newer ones with more characters!?
so 7 million people grew up with melee, but none want to re remember:
- its modes (classic, adventure, the 50 missions, the character specific break the targets)
- being able to play on all the melee stages that you had forgotted about (as the newer smash games only have temple and a few more). I'm pretty sure that people would lose their mind when they saw pokefloats again.
- gameplay
- visuals
- music
??
people spend so much time playing melee with friends, why wouldn't they want to re remember it?
this statements of people worried about nintendo going bankrupt because of no one buying melee hd, never made sense to me.
Except that thise people who go to official Pokemon stuff far outspend Melee players. In fact I'd argue its by an order of ten. Hell Pokemon TCG has weekly events at Local Game Stores. Nintendo gets a good portion of the cash involved there even if it is through a pass through company.
Even if Nintendo had an official league for Smash or any of their competitive games it is a very difficult thing to make money from. This is something that all competition leagues face and have found answers. You think the Smash community will buy a yearly digita compendium or 'signed' digita goods ala DOTA or league in order to fund that competitive league? I'm not convinced.
IrishNinja
Member
yeah personally I'd let that scene clean itself up a bit before getting anywhere near it, particularly the melee crowd
Thats because those companies supported the sequels and at least attempted to make sequels that the competitive players wanted to play. Brawl was a legitimate attempt to neuter competitive play in the series so you basically just had competitive Melee existing on its own for what, 11 years?
bobbychalkers
Member
Seeing their initiatives with Arms Pokken and Splatoon, E-Sports is becoming a focus for Nintendo. With that said, I imagine that they don't want to dedicate resources to a game made 4 console generations ago that requires CRT televisions, and consoles and controllers that are no longer being manufactured.
Calm Mind
Member
He was given a chance to finally have opinion heard and he squandered it completely.
I think a Melee HD would be great support for the community, which apparently a lot of people in the Melee community want (watch Twitch chat...). At tournaments you see GCNs/Wiis and there is netplay(online play mod) on dolphin emulator, so they aren't picky when it comes to where they play their game.
Just upscale the game to 1080p 16:9, charge 19.99$ for it and be done with it. Maybe go the extra mile and add online multiplayer to the multiplayer modes. I think thats something even casual players would enjoy. After all Melee is the best selling game on the GCN, so there is a lot of nostalgia for a lot of people.
This would be a great addition to the Switch library and if online modes included, would even give them more subscribers to their coming online service with relatively little work.
Saying Melee is obsolete because there are new Smash games is like saying Mario 64 is obsolete because there is Mario Odyssey on the horizon. That is something super ignorant to say imo.
Just upscale the game to 1080p 16:9, charge 19.99$ for it and be done with it. Maybe go the extra mile and add online multiplayer to the multiplayer modes. I think thats something even casual players would enjoy. After all Melee is the best selling game on the GCN, so there is a lot of nostalgia for a lot of people.
This would be a great addition to the Switch library and if online modes included, would even give them more subscribers to their coming online service with relatively little work.
Saying Melee is obsolete because there are new Smash games is like saying Mario 64 is obsolete because there is Mario Odyssey on the horizon. That is something super ignorant to say imo.
One of the big parts of the switch reveal was an esports tournament playing Splatoon. They work with EVO. They sponsored an ARMS tournament. You might not like it or be aware of it, but esports is very much a part of their brand. The three major upcoming Nintendo switch releases are all competitive multiplayer games.
they (nintendo) are the only ones who can solve that, by putting the game on their most recent console, if they want to. Either with a hd re release or a virtual console version that is 1:1 the original game (i.e. near perfect emulation).
Muchi Muchi Pink
Member
You need trophies for this? Pretty sure Quake, CS and Starcraft worked decades without this.
The idea that a port wouldn't make financial sense considering they did a very enchanced version of Wind Waker (a game that sold less than half of Melee originally) to a console that bombed and no one whatsoever complained about it.
That's why people (Including Hungrybox) are asking for a Switch port. Also, they re-manufactured GC controllers for Smash 4's release.
That's why people (Including Hungrybox) are asking for a Switch port. Also, they re-manufactured GC controllers for Smash 4's release.
Professor Beef
Banned
Mario 64 IS obsolete, though. Even the definition of the word backs that up. That isn't to say it isn't fun or anything like that, but of course you're going to want to highlight the new game coming out rather than an old one.
you would be surprised how many people argue against this. In this very thread, you've people convinced that melee hd would sell practically nothing (assuming the newest smash game was also available by the time melee hd was released), as people would, supposedly, buy the most recent installement with more characters.
The average Switch owner would buy the latest Smash game, not an Hd copy of smash. Their nostalgia is served by the new game. Mario Kart and Smash games are similar enough to each other that average users will prefer the newer versions.
Fair and actually a good response.
Like Reggie said, Bill and JC have made appeals to Japan to embrace the competitive scene and we've seen changes from Nintendo and continue to see an increased emphasis on that aspect for gaming. It ultimately may not be to the level that everyone wants, and right now it seems focused mainly as a promotional tool for upcoming and current games rather than making certain games a "lifestyle", but there is at least opportunity there, especially if Nintendo sees that this level of engagement is something that resonates with people. I've thought their E3 tournaments have been a good initiative and Splatoon 2 this year was great. Sure, they could go further, but it seems to me there are baby steps being taken and with Nintendo's increased focus with online as well as going further to embrace games that have a competitive aspect, even in their own franchises, I think they are on the right track.
Like Reggie said, Bill and JC have made appeals to Japan to embrace the competitive scene and we've seen changes from Nintendo and continue to see an increased emphasis on that aspect for gaming. It ultimately may not be to the level that everyone wants, and right now it seems focused mainly as a promotional tool for upcoming and current games rather than making certain games a "lifestyle", but there is at least opportunity there, especially if Nintendo sees that this level of engagement is something that resonates with people. I've thought their E3 tournaments have been a good initiative and Splatoon 2 this year was great. Sure, they could go further, but it seems to me there are baby steps being taken and with Nintendo's increased focus with online as well as going further to embrace games that have a competitive aspect, even in their own franchises, I think they are on the right track.
i'm not sure what we're discussing. We botth agree that the game would make back whatever they spent making a port, right? you don't think that it would sell millions of units, ok. Why does that matter? The finacial aspect wouldn't be a point against a melee hd port.
Calling out Nintendo for not throwing money into an old ass game with no return was the wrong way to approach things. I'm fine with the approach they've taken so far.
A port doesn't make sense financially because the Melee community could easily reject it, especially when they're used to playing on old hardware and CRTs for so many years, and Switch owners want something new to play instead of a game from generations ago.
A port doesn't make sense financially because the Melee community could easily reject it, especially when they're used to playing on old hardware and CRTs for so many years, and Switch owners want something new to play instead of a game from generations ago.
Renegade Frost
Banned
Sakurai is actually the only one who gives a crap about the competitive community in nintendo proper lol.