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[KAL2006]

The reason why DS is pirated so much is simple

It is EASY to do, buy a flash card, download and copy games to microsSD. No need to know how to hack, no need for burning CDs, no long prodedure of getting stuff to work, just a simple drag and drop. This way casuals can easily pirate, why do you think music piracy is so bad, because it is easy. Plus to top it off DS games are not as big, downloading takes a few minutes (or even seconds). The only hurdle for casuals is getting hold of a flashcart. Infact my brothers friend asked me if I know where to get a flashcard, and he is a policeman. These people are aware it is illegal, but they don't give a fuck, same reason why most people don't give a fuck about downloading MP3s.

again for the new page

 

[Yazus]

Ahahaha Italy, I live here and everyone pirates DS/PSP/PS2 games. They don't buy the PS3/360 because they ain't hackable easily. True story...

 

[JJConrad]

This is software numbers provided by Nintendo in their last quarterly report.

April to December (in millions):

[B]DS[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      27.11      25.04
Americas   64.55      56.95
[U]Other      72.11      [B]39.38[/B][/U]
Total     163.78     121.38

[B]Wii[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      11.04      12.48
Americas   90.29      82.84
[U]Other      62.46      61.32[/U]
Total     163.78     156.64

That Other DS number certainly stands out.

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy, but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

 

[mantidor]

Ahahaha Italy, I live here and everyone pirates DS/PSP/PS2 games. They don't buy the PS3/360 because they ain't hackable easily. True story...

This is also interesting, every single console or handheld that "won" and sold more than their competitors is the one that got easier to pirate, from the ps1 to the wii and ds. I've always been a Nintendo fanboy but even back then I couldn't justify the prices of games for the N64 when everyone I knew had a ps1 with dozens of pirated games.

It would be really interesting to find out if the popularity is what makes pirates make more effort and pour more resources in the specific console/handheld or if the piracy is what makes the devices popular to begin with. I'm inclined to support the later, because in all cases, from ps1 to the ds, piracy came very early in the lifecycles of the devices.

 

[boiled goose]

Best way to prevent piracy?

Making buying a game legitimately much easier than pirating it.

Decent pricing, decent availability, good localization times, good release schedules, etc.

I pay for songs on itunes because paying 1 dollar is much easier than trying to find a quality copy of random song online .

 

[DryEyeRelief]

I also find most arguments about "price" or "availability" to be very suspect.

They wouldn't be mentioned if it come from personal experience.

 

[nyong]

Best way to prevent piracy?

Start prosecuting the fuckers. Western society is becoming far too comfortable with digital theft. Given our inevitable digital future, this is going to become extremely problematic not too far from now. I weep for the authors, most of whom make miniscule wages, who are seeing their livelihood stolen/uploaded to Kindles around the world.

 

[timetokill]

They wouldn't be mentioned if it was not personal experience.

Somebody is naive :lol
For many the price justification comes after they start pirating. "Wow, I'm saving a lot of money, games were really too expensive!"

This is also interesting, every single console or handheld that "won" and sold more than their competitors is the one that got easier to pirate, from the ps1 to the wii and ds. I've always been a Nintendo fanboy but even back then I couldn't justify the prices of games for the N64 when everyone I knew had a ps1 with dozens of pirated games.

It would be really interesting to find out if the popularity is what makes pirates make more effort and pour more resources in the specific console/handheld or if the piracy is what makes the devices popular to begin with. I'm inclined to support the later, because in all cases, from ps1 to the ds, piracy came very early in the lifecycles of the devices.

You have to have the software that is worth pirating though. The Dreamcast was dead easy to do piracy on and it still died a quick death.

 

[zigg]

I pay for songs on itunes because paying 1 dollar is much easier than trying to find a quality copy of random song online .

Part of the reason for that is that music rips vary wildly in quality. Game rips are exempt from that problem for the most part, though the latest attempts at at least slowing day-0 piracy can have a similar effect, creating more work for the pirate at least at the outset.

 

[MikeE21286]

Best way to prevent piracy?

Making buying a game legitimately much easier than pirating it.

Decent pricing, decent availability, good localization times, good release schedules, etc.

I pay for songs on itunes because paying 1 dollar is much easier than trying to find a quality copy of random song online .

But, most iphone games are suuuupper cheap yet piracy is still rampant on the ipod touch. Again, it all comes down to ease of piracy. The iphone/ipod touch is very easily exploited, so that's why people pirate on it.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Somebody is naive :lol
For many the price justification comes after they start pirating. "Wow, I'm saving a lot of money, games were really too expensive!"

No you and I are the same page. I didn't mean to give them the benefit of the excuse. It's just if you come into this topic with a certain bitterness about pricing, then you're probably using an R4 all for the wrong reasons.

 

[DrXym]

The problem with these "oh boo hoo we're losing so much to the pirates" stories is the bald faced lies companies are making to exagerate their claims.

1 pirate copy doesn't equal one lost sale. Every game is a value proposition. I would be deeply surprised that if 10 pirated copies of a game amounted to one lost sale because 9 of those people would never have paid full whack for it in any circumstances.

There is no doubt piracy is a major issue but I would not be surprised if DS sales were also slumping simply because the platform is a cesspit of shovelware. People have cottoned to the fact that a large slice of DS titles range in quality from mediocre to awful. If they've been stung in the past perhaps they're getting more selective about their future purchases.

 

[captmcblack]

The things that are pirated...would they be guranteed to be bought if that was the only way to get them?

 

[timetokill]

No you and I are the same page. I didn't mean to give them the benefit of the excuse. It's just if you come into this topic with a certain bitterness about pricing, then you're probably using an R4 all for the wrong reasons.

Ahhhh I see what you meant now, cool sorry for misreading it

1 pirate copy doesn't equal one lost sale. Every game is a value proposition. I would be deeply surprised that if 10 pirated copies of a game amounted to one lost sale because 9 of those people would never have paid full whack for it in any circumstances.

Of course it doesn't. But you can't simply say the one person downloading the game is the only one playing that downloaded version of the game. That downloaded copy of the game could be going to dozens or hundreds of people on flash media, and there is no way for Nintendo to really track that. But I suppose you only thought about people downloading for personal use and not for selling carts with a hundred games on them, right?

There's no way to accurately say exactly how many sales are lost. The only thing that can really be said is that it is certainly more than 0 -- and that it is certainly a factor in lost sales, especially when you look at such a huge sales decline that is dissimilar to other regions in the same time frame.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

This is software numbers provided by Nintendo in their last quarterly report.

April to December (in millions):

[B]DS[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      27.11      25.04
Americas   64.55      56.95
[U]Other      72.11      [B]39.38[/B][/U]
Total     163.78     121.38

[B]Wii[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      11.04      12.48
Americas   90.29      82.84
[U]Other      62.46      61.32[/U]
Total     163.78     156.64

That Other DS number certainly stands out.

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy, but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

Your logic and reasoning has no place here!

 

[nyong]

If someone downloads a title with the intention of playing it, it's safe to say that they have an interest in the product. Whether this interest would have translated into a sale is debatable, of course. Still, even if the company re-releases the product at a cheaper price-point down the road (i.e. Steam) the window of opportunity is probably forever closed for that particular consumer, on that particular title.

Also: the time invested in said pirated product - the time spent playing videogames free of charge - would almost certainly be spent playing a purchased title (regardless of which one) rather than none. In this sense, every pirated game - every second spent playing a pirated game - translates into money which is stolen from the industry as a whole.

 

[AndyD]

You will get no argument from me here—particularly with the quoted anonymous student's reasoning for pirating in the first place—but I sincerely hope neither of you are trying to make the case that one download equals zero sales.

The real number is somewhere in-between and probably not really quantifiable—but no matter what it is, DS piracy is huge and Nintendo's right to consider it very seriously.

Overall its in the middle. But in some areas, it would be 0. As some people said there is a lot of game downloading of games not available for sale in certain regions or countries at all. So if those people could not download, they also cannot buy, as the games are simply not available at all.

 

[nyong]

Your logic and reasoning has no place here!

Obviously millions of DS owners simultaneously came to realization that they're being ripped off at the precise moment flash carts incidentally entered the mass-market place. Any other explanation is probably false.

 

[BGBW]

I dont do piracy, but I've stopped buying DS games in the last six months. I've literally only bought Pokemon HeartGold and Scribblenauts.

Why? Price. Most NDS games, for me, don't offer £30 worth of entertainment. I'd probably buy a lot more if the standard price was closer to £20.

It's like Blu-ray, when they were £30 each I bought one here and there - now they're £8-18 I'm buying them like they're going out of fashion.

If you shop smart you can find loads of new DS games for under £18 on the day of release.

 

[jorma]

I am

Well then you should probably be expected to know the correct legal terms you use in daily language.

 

[speculawyer]

I think piracy has killed off much of a market for portable teen/adult games. That is kinda sad.

 

[Apath]

walking about my local town i have yet to see a kid play a ds without a flash cart.

Flash Cart =/= Pirated Games.

It's infinitely more convenient to keep all your games on a single flash cart than carry around a dozen little DS games.

 

[Stormwatch]

They should bring back those "Seal of Quality" commercials they used to have back in the day. That way the naive parents might be educated as to the difference between legit software and pirated software. Nintendo can probably scare them into thinking that those R4 carts will break your consoles.

 

[Magni]

Flash Cart =/= Pirated Games.

It's infinitely more convenient to keep all your games on a single flash cart than carry around a dozen little DS games.

True, but most of the little kids in town aren't copying over their legit game collections I presume.

 

[Gattsu25]

Why? And would you pay 70 Euros for a 360 / PS3 game?

Why? I haven't found many DS games that I felt were compelling enough experiences to warrant a price that high

Regarding a ~$94 USD game? My answer would be the same. I think only a few games even warrant the Collector's Edition markup.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The thing about the DS is that the installed base is so overwhelmingly huge that even with massive piracy, sales of DS software are still healthy. Now, the PSP on the other hand, piracy has absolutely slaughtered that system. Piracy killed the Dreamcast, too.

 

[Burger]

iPod/iPhone receives massive growth in Europe...

DS suffers big sales drop in Europe...

PIRACY!

 

[SlipperySlope]

No one in my country buys real games unless he is playing on a PS3. Absolutely no one.

Games just don't come. And when they come, they cost upwards x2 or x2.5 their price in the US, and the most advertising a game gets is having the box art among those ads where you see tons of box arts to advertise a piracy device.
Then there's also the whole clusterfuck of NTSC consoles, PAL consoles, and a similar clusterfuck with the region of the games. If you decide to buy a console and then a game without really checking, you might be buying different region products that may not work together.

It's so bad that there isn't a single person actively thinking to buy games legitimately. It's always first "is there a chip for it?" and then, depending on the answer, they buy it or they don't.
So really, it is piracy, no doubt. But the bullshit is not the people, it's the companies who don't provide support, and then bitch about people not paying luxury for what America gets for free.

Yeah... you pretty much just admitted to piracy.

 

[Instro]

iPod/iPhone receives massive growth in Europe...

DS suffers big sales drop in Europe...

PIRACY!

Makes sense. I mean flashcarts have been pretty widespread long before 2009.

That sales drop in Europe is most likely due to multiple factors, not just piracy, or we would have seen similar drops in Japan and NA.

 

[Cheerilee]

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy,

Yeah. They just said there was a near 50% drop in sales, and claimed that it was mostly piracy's fault. And then they trumped up some impressive-looking but ultimately meaningless download numbers and explained how they wouldn't rest until they found the real killers and then they went off to the golf course.

but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

Saying that 1 in 5 downloads is a lost sale is believable because people will believe anything that sounds reasoned or official (especially when it comes down as a compromise), even if it was pulled entirely out of someone's butt with no basis in fact.

There's no way to accurately say exactly how many sales are lost. The only thing that can really be said is that it is certainly more than 0 -- and that it is certainly a factor in lost sales, especially when you look at such a huge sales decline that is dissimilar to other regions in the same time frame.

Even that isn't true. You can't say it was more than zero. There are hypothetical scenarios in which piracy increases game sales.

I will admit that piracy probably causes lost sales, but we can't say for certain that it does because it's impossible to measure how many, if any. There are just too many other factors involved.

 

[Vanillalite]

If you shop smart you can find loads of new DS games for under £18 on the day of release.

Sadly though I'm in North America all my good shopping days for DS games are gone now that Circuit City closed. They use to have great prices and force Best Buy to act. I bought so many GBA and DS games at CC cause they always ran deals. Now it's basically internet or bust for a deal.

 

[Vizion28]

They should bring back those "Seal of Quality" commercials they used to have back in the day. That way the naive parents might be educated as to the difference between legit software and pirated software. Nintendo can probably scare them into thinking that those R4 carts will break your consoles.

But it's not the parents who are buying the pirated stuff, it is the teen/young adult males.

I think some blame falls on Nintendo for not making their systems more secure. Piracy has been rampant for Nintendo since the NES days. I distinctly remember as a kid seeing NES carts that had over a thousand games on it. Nintendo is a multi billion dollar company and they can build a system that is hack proof? Really? What does the FBI, Penatagon, and NSA do to make their systems so secure that Nintendo can't do?

C'mon Nintendo get it together.

 

[Cipherr]

Even that isn't true. You can't say it was more than zero. There are hypothetical scenarios in which piracy increases game sales.

Thats such a stupid fucking statement. Using a complete lack of common god damn sense and going buy that fucked up logic, we cant exactly say that every pirated game ISNT a lost sale at a one to one ratio either can we? The logical thing to say is that its going to fall somewhere in there. Not one to one obviously, we shouldnt even entertain a 1:1 ratio, but at the same time we know its more than fucking zero, and can say it with absolute certainty. Stop mucking up the discussion with your nonsense.

 

[Morokh]

There is other things that could have played a part with piracy in such a drop in sales.

Take the fact that the majority of the specialized gaming shops didn't sell used games one year from now (Micromania, and Games that are the biggest if you take France as an example)
plus the fact that we are still struggling with the consequences of the financial crysis sure doesn't help with the sales of new games or games at all.

And i must say the bazillion people that bought a DS for Kawashima and Nintendogs aren't really your typical regular game buyer ...

 

[dreamcastmaster]

Maybe Nintendo should include a peripheral with every new game (and the game won't play without it)

I wonder if a password system based on the game manual might cause pirates a few hassles (find the 5th word on page 18 etc)? or would it be easy enough to just find a workaround?

Obviously the manuals would end up being scanned and uploaded..but having to scan every page of every manual would at least be an extra layer of annoyance for those who rip the games.

An extra layer of annoyance for those who legitimately purchase the games.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Start prosecuting the fuckers. Western society is becoming far too comfortable with digital theft. Given our inevitable digital future, this is going to become extremely problematic not too far from now. I weep for the authors, most of whom make miniscule wages, who are seeing their livelihood stolen/uploaded to Kindles around the world.

"prosecuting the fuckers" worked so well before.

how many busts have there been for movies? music? games? warez?

look at all the warez scene busts, yet people continue to do it.

look at all the busts for people leakign via p2p, yet people continue to do it.

all it takes is 1 person with the knowledge, access and ability to release an album, movie or game and then it's out and you can't take it back.

 

[The Faceless Master]

The things that are pirated...would they be guranteed to be bought if that was the only way to get them?

seriously, if PS3 were hacked, i'd bet a ton more people would pirate MAG than Heavy Rain, despite their similar sales...

 

[vodka-bull]

You really are excusing piracy with overpriced games?
Hey, I want this Ferrari, but it's overpriced, so i'm just gonna steal it...

I'm sorry that I have to post this, but your definition of piracy is just wrong. And no, I'm not defending piracy, I'm just explaining the basics so you know what you're talking about.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

If someone downloads a title with the intention of playing it, it's safe to say that they have an interest in the product. Whether this interest would have translated into a sale is debatable, of course. Still, even if the company re-releases the product at a cheaper price-point down the road (i.e. Steam) the window of opportunity is probably forever closed for that particular consumer, on that particular title.

I'm not sure that's completely true - a lot of 'pirates' get a bit OCD about roms, and will actually just download everything just so they have a 'full set'.

Also, particularly with handheld devices, I can see an appeal beyond just 'free games' to being able to mount multiple games on one card for travelling.

I don't have a DS 'backup device' because as I understand it it's not very easy to dump your own games + saves, but I do have a custom firmware PSP precisely for the purpose of not having to carry multiple UMDs around with it.

If I did have a DS flash card, I'm pretty sure I would download the games I own rather than ripping them myself so that I wouldn't have to setup a special IP slave program on my PC and wirelessly transfer my games for hours on end, and because of that I would then probably be artifically inflating any existent piracy download tracking.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Biggest problem is that they're figuring that every download - heck, even half - would result in a sale if the downloads weren't available.

 

[jorma]

Thats such a stupid fucking statement. Using a complete lack of common god damn sense and going buy that fucked up logic, we cant exactly say that every pirated game ISNT a lost sale at a one to one ratio either can we? The logical thing to say is that its going to fall somewhere in there. Not one to one obviously, we shouldnt even entertain a 1:1 ratio, but at the same time we know its more than fucking zero, and can say it with absolute certainty. Stop mucking up the discussion with your nonsense.

Well the GAO sort of agrees with him, while calling out the reports the industry brings forward to present their losses as unsubstantiated. Either way, it's a pointless discussion and there really isn't anything worthwile to muck up in this thread.

The important question is, what do you want to do about it? It's clear what the entertainment industry wants, because they've recently compiled a wishlist on measures they want in place to combat copyright infringements. It contains gems such as installing 'anti infringement' detection programs on home computers and ISP loss of safe harbour unless they actively monitor their customers internet use. It really is a depressing read if you're a fan of privacy rights and feel they are more important than content-provider profits.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Out of curiosity... what's your explanation/theory for a much steeper drop in sales in Europe than in other territories?

price of games.

quality of games.

economy.


and as always...the assumption that everyone who pirates a game would have ever bought it is a fundamentally flawed approach used to justify bad DRM. I'd be interested in some studies on the subject, as I don't think most of these pirates have anything but a passing interest in the software being pirated and probably simply would have never played it if not for piracy.

Anecdotally, I'd be interested in knowing how many people who pirated later became customers. People who would have not become customers had they not been drawn in by being able to play a game for free and finding an appreciation for a franchise.

 

[Mael]

This is software numbers provided by Nintendo in their last quarterly report.

April to December (in millions):

[B]DS[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      27.11      25.04
Americas   64.55      56.95
[U]Other      72.11      [B]39.38[/B][/U]
Total     163.78     121.38

[B]Wii[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      11.04      12.48
Americas   90.29      82.84
[U]Other      62.46      61.32[/U]
Total     163.78     156.64

That Other DS number certainly stands out.

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy, but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

Seriously is there a reason why DS games sold so much the year before and so low last year?
It's certainly not a problem due to competition eating sales since the fucking system is still selling as good as ever => there's demand enough
ease of piracy? Wii is even easier to pirate, had a crappy year for software (bar Wiifit+, WSR and Nsmbw) and software sales ROSE.
Price remaining constant between 2009 and 2008 means that price didn't somehow became such a problem in a year time.
Seriously is there a better explanation than just LOL price and delays (especially since there's NO games that were released in the other markets that could have reversed the trend)

price of games.

quality of games.

which is exactly why wii software sales also fell of a cliff, wait wha?

 

[Duran]

Yeah. They just said there was a near 50% drop in sales, and claimed that it was mostly piracy's fault. And then they trumped up some impressive-looking but ultimately meaningless download numbers and explained how they wouldn't rest until they found the real killers and then they went off to the golf course.


Saying that 1 in 5 downloads is a lost sale is believable because people will believe anything that sounds reasoned or official (especially when it comes down as a compromise), even if it was pulled entirely out of someone's butt with no basis in fact.


Even that isn't true. You can't say it was more than zero. There are hypothetical scenarios in which piracy increases game sales.

I will admit that piracy probably causes lost sales, but we can't say for certain that it does because it's impossible to measure how many, if any. There are just too many other factors involved.

I don't like these posts at all. Honestly, I have friends who pirate ALL of their portable games but they recently purchased the new Pokemon due to the anti-piracy thing in it (which eventually got fixed, obviously). Point is, as long as games are pirateable in any way, shape or form they will be pirated.

People who say "it can't be proven that piracy has a role in game sales" need to use some logic. You don't need some kind of scientific study to realize obvious things.

And yes, there are instances where piracy increases game sales, but ever wonder what the ratio of decrease to increase is? Nevermind, can't be proven that there's any decrease at all right?

 

[jorma]

And yes, there are instances where piracy increases game sales, but ever wonder what the ratio of decrease to increase is? Nevermind, can't be proven that there's any decrease at all right?

Pretty much, yes. The onus on bringing the proof should be with content providers in light of the massive tax funded surveillance apparatus they want to introduce to combat it.

 

[Slavik81]

This is software numbers provided by Nintendo in their last quarterly report.

April to December (in millions):

[B]DS[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      27.11      25.04
Americas   64.55      56.95
[U]Other      72.11      [B]39.38[/B][/U]
Total     163.78     121.38

[B]Wii[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      11.04      12.48
Americas   90.29      82.84
[U]Other      62.46      61.32[/U]
Total     163.78     156.64

That Other DS number certainly stands out.

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy, but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

Your explanation simply creates another equally puzzling mystery. Why would there be a sudden increase in piracy between 2008 and 2009?

Without a good reason for that, you're no closer to a conclusion than where you started.

 

[M°°nblade]

which is exactly why wii software sales also fell of a cliff, wait wha?

Also, DS games have a very flexible pricemodel. They go from 10 (low quality) to 40 (high quality) euro.

Your explanation simply creates another equally puzzling mystery. Why would there be a sudden increase in piracy between 2008 and 2009?

Without a good reason for that, you're no closer to a conclusion than where you started.

The magicom devices, which are spreading rapidly overseas, typically comprise of a cartridge about the same size as an authentic game disk and a separate memory card used to store downloaded software.

 

[shintoki]

I'll say this. Even if they drop the prices. It is going to do jack shit. It's exactly like the Music business. You made piracy a valuable option thanks to shit business practices. Now you have to convince these people paying nothing...to pay for something. :lol

 

[Mael]

Also, DS games have a very flexible pricemodel. They go from 10 (low quality) to 40 (high quality) euro.

Wii games price are flexible too :
from 19 for Dead space extraction
to 60 for the latest wii block buster 3rd party games (which means it's really 50)
and even worse for pirating the wii you only need dvd writer or an usb drive
I mean you don't' even a special device to egt off the web or anything!

 

[Slavik81]

The magicom devices, which are spreading rapidly overseas, typically comprise of a cartridge about the same size as an authentic game disk and a separate memory card used to store downloaded software.

How is that any different from the R4 or the dozens of other circumvention devices that have been widely distributed for years?