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[Vagabundo]

This is software numbers provided by Nintendo in their last quarterly report.

April to December (in millions):

[B]DS[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      27.11      25.04
Americas   64.55      56.95
[U]Other      72.11      [B]39.38[/B][/U]
Total     163.78     121.38

[B]Wii[/B]
[U][B]Region     2008       2009[/B][/U]
Japan      11.04      12.48
Americas   90.29      82.84
[U]Other      62.46      61.32[/U]
Total     163.78     156.64

That Other DS number certainly stands out.

They're likely not blaming all of the losses on piracy, but even if they were, blaming 42 million in lost sales to 238 million tracked downloads isn't that unbelievable of a claim.

I'm not sure I buy it, the Wii is pretty easy to hack too, but you dont see that drop. Unless there has been a sudden surge in Word of Mouth for DS hacking.

 

[M°°nblade]

How is that any different from the R4 or the dozens of other circumvention devices that have been widely distributed for years?

Maybe it isn't. The drop in 2009 DS sales could be caused by the cumulative effect of people buying R4/magicom cards back in 2008/2009.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Maybe it isn't. The drop in 2009 DS sales could be caused by the cumulative effect of people buying R4/magicom cards back in 2008/2009.

And what about the cumulative effect of people buying cards in 2006/2007?

Some of the most successful Wii software range at 40-50€, that's almost what a DS game cost...

Wii as accesible to pirate as DS, probably even easier now, since a lot of DS cards have outdated firmwares and don't work on a nice number of games...

Problem is the price, most people that have a Wii and a DS can't see spending the same amount of money for a Wii game that for a DS game...

Edit: also, in some countries we're still dealing with recession...

 

[Panajev2001a]

I'll say this. Even if they drop the prices. It is going to do jack shit.

No, there are many people including myself which, past a certain age, have to pay more attention to their budget (especially when that budget also has to pay for your "work tools" which cost a pretty penny) and paying 40 Euros for a DS game or 50+ Euros for a PSP one is sometimes a bit much (let alone 69 Euros for PS3 games)... you buy them when you can.

I do not pirate games, I simply not buy them when I cannot afford them.

Still, the economy in Europe (especially in some states) is pretty bleak right now, the cost of everyday life is high, wages have fallen (or not grown along with inflation), ... giving the blame for software sales dropping entirely to piracy is misleading.

 

[M°°nblade]

And what about the cumulative effect of people buying cards in 2006/2007?

Where the cards already popular in Europe in 2006/2007? It would be interesting if we had some actual R4/magicom sales charts.

 

[Mael]

Where the cards already popular in Europe in 2006/2007? It would be interesting if we had some actual R4/magicom sales charts.

It's like where I live they saw that people where actually smoking more weed.
How could they know that since it's actually illegal and all?
Well they saw that the paper for cigarette sales exploded while the tobacco that should be going with it actually flatlined :lol

 

[m.i.s.]

iPod/iPhone receives massive growth in Europe...

DS suffers big sales drop in Europe...

PIRACY!

Just as well Nintendo are rumoured to be readying 3DS for this October.

If there's no useable kindle-like download system for cheap and simple flash-like puzzle and action games, I consider Nintendo's handheld software business to be in peril.

It really is that serious.

 

[M°°nblade]

It's like where I live they saw that people where actually smoking more weed.
How could they know that since it's actually illegal and all?
Well they saw that the paper for cigarette sales exploded while the tobacco that should be going with it actually flatlined :lol

Awesome :lol

Since R4 cards are illegal as well(yes, no?), it's hard to trace. But perhaps we can make DS hardware the equivalent of cigarette paper.
How are EU 2009 DS sales compared to 2008. Did they go up or down?

 

[FieryBalrog]

I compare the reactions in this thread to the reaction of PC gamers towards piracy issues.

And I weep. Fuck PC gamers, we can't even support the devs that made great games in the past and now we've rendered our own platform barren.

 

[Turrican3]

How are EU 2009 DS sales compared to 2008. Did they go up or down?

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2010/100128e.pdf

12.79 (apr-dec 2008) vs 9.3 (apr-dec 2009) millions unit listed in "Other", which includes Europe AFAIK.

 

[The Faceless Master]

How is that any different from the R4 or the dozens of other circumvention devices that have been widely distributed for years?

they're referring to the same thing.
flashcart = magicom

there were NES/SNES copiers called magicom (wordplay on famicom)

 

[RJT]

I feel like such a hypocrite sometimes. I have no problem with the illegal downloading of music, but when I see people playing their DS with such an R4 (?) card it pisses me off to no end.

So you're a typical GAFfer then...

 

[badkitten]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

 

[Mael]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

That's still 1 less game in the used games market, which means 1 less incentive for someone to buy pre-owned.
Wait you mean preowned to pirated games and not the other way round?
That's like asking if it's worse if you go from legal drugs to illegal drugs :-/

I mean by buying preowned games you're not hurting the industry since you're actually injecting money in the market, and preowned is legal and covered by consumer rights.

 

[zigg]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

Scarcity in the used market is still demand for a legitimate product; if fewer used copies are available it stands to reason there would be some people who would opt to buy new. Plus, selling one's copy deprives the original owner of that copy; he may later remember the game fondly and so be a demand force once again.

Obviously there's no such demand effect with piracy.

 

[Minsc]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

Just move it to an absolute, and see the answer clearer. If everyone bought only pre-owned games, there'd be no more new games, since no one is buying new games. So yes, buying pre-owned ultimately results in the same conclusion as pirating for publishers, unless they are getting a cut of the sale somehow. Obviously you'd be hard-pressed to argue it is the same thing though, from a legal/moral standpoint.

This is another reason why developers love the digital download market, no resale or buying used, so no pre-owned market. But moral/legal issues aside, piracy is a worse path for the industry, because as pre-owned games are phased out, at least some (hopefully a lot) of those people buying pre-owned will move to buying digital downloads, while people choosing piracy will likely still pirate the games.

Plus the person who buys pre-owned games has a better chance of wanting to buy non-preowned games, as they're going to a store to browse titles (even subconsciously)... unless that store deals 100% pre-owned software.

 

[The Technomancer]

I don't have a DS 'backup device' because as I understand it it's not very easy to dump your own games + saves, but I do have a custom firmware PSP precisely for the purpose of not having to carry multiple UMDs around with it.

If I did have a DS flash card, I'm pretty sure I would download the games I own rather than ripping them myself so that I wouldn't have to setup a special IP slave program on my PC and wirelessly transfer my games for hours on end, and because of that I would then probably be artifically inflating any existent piracy download tracking.

Yup, I do this. Theres just no way I can haul around all of my DS games with me all the time, not without risking losing them.

 

[Mael]

Just move it to an absolute, and see the answer clearer. If everyone bought only pre-owned games, there'd be no more new games, since no one is buying new games. So yes, buying pre-owned ultimately results in the same conclusion as pirating for publishers, unless they are getting a cut of the sale somehow. Obviously you'd be hard-pressed to argue it is the same thing though, from a legal/moral standpoint.

This is one of the biggest pile of BS I've read,
if everyone was buying preowned games there would be no preowned games since for there to be preowned there must be a 1rst owner who bought it new in the first place!

For a preowned product to exists, it means that there's someone who was happy to get rid of the game for money => the product was not good enough for him to keep whether he bought it new or not.

If all games were providing satisfaction to their owners there would be no preowned market AT ALL => try to find a preowned evergreen title (wiifit, mario kart....) you'll see what I mean

 

[JimboJones]

Preowned games will probably end up getting scratched and eventually leave circulation and games actually bought will replace them.

It's sales lost but it's not as excessive as downloading where you could potentially lose thousands of sales from just 1 copy being online.

 

[The Technomancer]

This is one of the biggest pile of BS I've read,
if everyone was buying preowned games there would be no preowned games since for there to be preowned there must be a 1rst owner who bought it new in the first place!

For a preowned product to exists, it means that there's someone who was happy to get rid of the game for money => the product was not good enough for him to keep whether he bought it new or not.

If all games were providing satisfaction to their owners there would be no preowned market AT ALL => try to find a preowned evergreen title (wiifit, mario kart....) you'll see what I mean

He was talking in a hypothetical, like when biologists assume an infinite population. Of course there's no way for everyone to buy only used games.

I will say, I never resell my games, so that's not one of the drawbacks for DD for me. Mostly because I have yet to find a place that will make it worth my while. Seriously, even if I am done playing a game, $5 isn't worth it. I might want to play it later someday, and I can recoup five bucks easily.

 

[Mael]

I will say, I never resell my games, so that's not one of the drawbacks for DD for me. Mostly because I have yet to find a place that will make it worth my while. Seriously, even if I am done playing a game, $5 isn't worth it. I might want to play it later someday, and I can recoup five bucks easily.

There's only 1 reason I'll ever sell a game : it's fucking BAD
I mean sooo BAD I don't want to see in my collection EVER.
Only happened once : Medal of Honor Vanguard Wii, I wanted a Wii fps and that was that or Red Steel a friend already got....
I finished it and sent it back on its way in exchange for 10 bucks for FFIII DS, I say I'm quite happy to have gotten rid of that turd.
Never bought an EA game till Mirror's Edge last month.

 

[The Faceless Master]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

the continual purchase of used games props up the new games market. if there were no used games, many people who trade in games to help buy new games wouldn't buy as many games.

used game sales give new more games value.

 

[Minsc]

This is one of the biggest pile of BS I've read,
if everyone was buying preowned games there would be no preowned games since for there to be preowned there must be a 1rst owner who bought it new in the first place!

For a preowned product to exists, it means that there's someone who was happy to get rid of the game for money => the product was not good enough for him to keep whether he bought it new or not.

If all games were providing satisfaction to their owners there would be no preowned market AT ALL => try to find a preowned evergreen title (wiifit, mario kart....) you'll see what I mean

I think it is fair to assume a decent amount of people who buy solely pre-owned games do indeed sell their games back to earn money to buy new pre-owned games though. I was imaging an endless cycle of buying and selling around the same games already out, killing off the industry.

I guess you need some people buying new games, but even if you had just 1,000 people buying new games and trading them back, and a pool of 100,000 people to cycle those new games used, you'd be very profitable.

 

[Mael]

I think it is fair to assume a decent amount of people who buy solely pre-owned games do indeed sell their games back to earn money to buy new pre-owned games though. I was imaging an endless cycle of buying and selling around the same games already out, killing off the industry.

I guess you need some people buying new games, but even if you had just 1,000 people buying new games, and a pool of 100,000 people to cycle those new games between used, you'd be very profitable.

Ok.
Still even then you have to assume these people don't buy until the 1rst owners are finished with them or else there'll be plenty of lost customer, still I see your point (but don't agree with it).

 

[:Motorbass]

Just as well Nintendo are rumoured to be readying 3DS for this October.

If there's no useable kindle-like download system for cheap and simple flash-like puzzle and action games, I consider Nintendo's handheld software business to be in peril.

It really is that serious.

? DSi already has that.

 

[Stumpokapow]

? DSi already has that.

I think by "Kindle-like" he's implying 3G.

 

[lowlylowlycook]

I'm part of the problem, I haven't bought a DS game in the last year.. but that's because there haven't been any I've been interested in.

Maybe Nintendo need to look into the quality of DS titles instead of blaming the drop in sales on piracy.

So many posts like this.

So few sales of Infinite Space.

 

[TouchMyBox]

I don't know about you guys, but I ride the bus here in Canada on an almost daily basis, and I've yet to see a single person with a DS who was playing a legitimate copy of a game.

I'm starting to think I'm the only one who actually buys games.

 

[HK-47]

I compare the reactions in this thread to the reaction of PC gamers towards piracy issues.

And I weep. Fuck PC gamers, we can't even support the devs that made great games in the past and now we've rendered our own platform barren.

No and no. And who is this we?

 

[TouchMyBox]

No and no. And who is this we?

He's simply using the improper vernacular. He meant to say "Parasites" instead of PC gamers. PC gamers still exist and are buying plenty of games, though sadly there seems to be a 1:1 ratio of PC Gamers to Parasites.

 

[wrowa]

I'm not sure I buy it, the Wii is pretty easy to hack too, but you dont see that drop. Unless there has been a sudden surge in Word of Mouth for DS hacking.

It's much easier to download DS games since most of the games are way smaller than 100MB. Wii games on the other hand have a size of several GB.

Downloading big files is a hassle, downloading small files is easy.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Campioni del mondo!

...

 

[Rich!]

It's much easier to download DS games since most of the games are way smaller than 100MB. Wii games on the other site have a size of several GB.

Downloading big files is a hassle, downloading small files is easy.

Yep.

You're looking at a good 7gb for something like Smash Bros or Metroid Prime Trilogy. But then again, going by the sizes on my Wii hard drive of my game backups, games can be compressed up to 100mb or so. Super Paper Mario is one such example.

The main hurdle is for the casual pirate/mum/kid is that getting pirated games to work on the Wii require you to use an exploit to install the homebrew channel, and then installing the various IOS's needed to run a USB loader. They'd then need to find a USB loader that suits them and a compatible hard drive, along with software on the PC to format it correctly. And then, they'd need to find and download the games, probably through torrents. It's way too much hard work for most of these people.

Compare that to DS piracy - buy a cartridge, shove games on it from any number of hosting sites found on a simple google search, play away.

 

[The Technomancer]

The main hurdle is for the casual pirate/mum/kid is that getting pirated games to work on the Wii require you to use an exploit to install the homebrew channel, and then installing the various IOS's needed to run a USB loader. They'd then need to find a USB loader that suits them and a compatible hard drive, along with software on the PC to format it correctly. And then, they'd need to find and download the games, probably through torrents. It's way too much hard work for most of these people.

Ugh, yeah, had to get myself a loader recently so I could get the benefit of my family's Netflix account, it was a pain to find a good one. I mean, installing Homebrew itself wasn't a problem, but than I'm "tech-savy" (read: young). An R4 is infinitely easier to set up, just plug and play.

 

[red shoe paul]

If someone switched from buying pre-owned games to pirated games are they still hurting the industry? the publisher and game creators still see no money either way

Exactly. TONS of people buy pre-owned games here, and are against piracy. I really don't understand it. :lol

 

[Mael]

Exactly. TONS of people buy pre-owned games here, and are against piracy. I really don't understand it. :lol

That's like saying you don't understand why people can stand tobacco and hate weed.
And for the love of god they're really NOT the same so stop with the false analogies.

 

[Odrion]

I'm not sure I buy it, the Wii is pretty easy to hack too, but you dont see that drop. Unless there has been a sudden surge in Word of Mouth for DS hacking.

The Wii still has you taking steps and you sacrifice the ability to update, and to mention potentially bricking your console.

All you do for a DS is buy a flashcart.

 

[Turrican3]

The Wii still has you taking steps and you sacrifice the ability to update, and to mention potentially bricking your console.

Almost a non-issue here, actually.

Lots of underground (or not-so-underground...) retailers will happily install all you need to run homebrew software on the Wii for a relatively small fee, many of them will likely even include a "warranty"... some people would and, well, *will* do everything just to be able to avoid buying original games.

 

[Vinci]

Again, piracy is one of the reasons for the lack of quality, and you can't deny that piracy on the DS is huge. Even (or especially) great games like GTA, Mario & Luigi, Zelda, and Layton sold much less than they should have.

Not disagreeing with you so much, just curious... How do you objectively measure what a game 'should have' sold? That seems rather similar to the thinking I often see in NPD threads: "Bayonetta is awesome! Deserves every sale, and should have gotten many more!"

I mean, if there's an objective difference between what you just said concerning GTA, Mario & Luigi, Zelda, and Layton selling 'less than they should have' and that example, that's cool. But I'd like to hear it.

 

[Rich!]

The Wii still has you taking steps and you sacrifice the ability to update, and to mention potentially bricking your console.

All you do for a DS is buy a flashcart.

Not true - waninkoko's updater fixes all that. And the console bricking is a non-issue if you install protection onto your Wii (bootmii).

But yeah, a DS flashcart is far easier.

 

[Mael]

Not disagreeing with you so much, just curious... How do you objectively measure what a game 'should have' sold? That seems rather similar to the thinking I often see in NPD threads: "Bayonetta is awesome! Deserves every sale, and should have gotten many more!"

I mean, if there's an objective difference between what you just said concerning GTA, Mario & Luigi, Zelda, and Layton selling 'less than they should have' and that example, that's cool. But I'd like to hear it.

In the case of Layton it's simple :
Game series is extremely popular, good feedback, marketing blitz, popular and critical acclaim BUT disapponting sales.
Basically what led to the creation of Poochy in the Simspons for a direct metaphore.
People should be watching Itchy and Scratchy but they just don't anymore.
Except here it can't be attributed to genre or character fatigue from the public (it's brand fucking new).

GTA is because top-down GTA is not popular.
M&L 3 sold fabulously so no complaint I'd say here,
Zelda is because of either fatigue or simply that the train is a big turn off to some.

 

[Vinci]

In the case of Layton it's simple :
Game series is extremely popular, good feedback, marketing blitz, popular and critical acclaim BUT disapponting sales.
Basically what led to the creation of Poochy in the Simspons for a direct metaphore.
People should be watching Itchy and Scratchy but they just don't anymore.
Except here it can't be attributed to genre or character fatigue from the public (it's brand fucking new).

When you say the following: "Game series is extremely popular, good feedback, marketing blitz, popular and critical acclaim BUT disappointing sales"... Do you mean all this specifically in Europe? Typically game series that are 'extremely popular' don't suddenly have the majority of their users abandoning the purchase of games within that series. I find it hard to imagine that someone who loved the first Layton game and bought it, is going to hear about a sequel and go, "Think I'll pirate this time."

Maybe that's what is happening, but that doesn't logically follow. Then again, I'm not suggesting that people are always logical.

 

[red shoe paul]

And for the love of god they're really NOT the same so stop with the false analogies.

What?
I'm stating is that the devs and everyone involved with used game sales at Gamestop get money for it?

 

[Kilrogg]

In the case of Layton it's simple :
Game series is extremely popular, good feedback, marketing blitz, popular and critical acclaim BUT disapponting sales.

Uh? Isn't Layton pretty successful in Europe though? I thought only the US had lackluster sales. Feel free to correct me.

[EDIT] @Vinci: it could also be that many people enjoyed the first game, but not enough to go out and buy a new installment that's more of the same at full price. That's one of the ways to measure a game's staying power (or lack thereof) I suppose.

 

[Vinci]

Uh? Isn't Layton pretty successful in Europe though? I thought only the US had lackluster sales. Feel free to correct me.

[EDIT] @Vinci: it could also be that many people enjoyed the first game, but not enough to go out and buy a new installment that's more of the same at full price. That's one of the ways to measure a game's staying power (or lack thereof) I suppose.

But then why are we assuming that the customers are doing something wrong and not the company publishing the title? I mean, this sounds an awful lot like PSP software excuses - jumping to 'piracy' (and no, I'm not suggesting there is none) rather than accepting that the product they released, or the manner in which they released it, is quite possibly to blame for it as well.

EDIT @ Mael: Oh, okay. Just curious 'cause something felt weird there.

 

[Mael]

When you say the following: "Game series is extremely popular, good feedback, marketing blitz, popular and critical acclaim BUT disappointing sales"... Do you mean all this specifically in Europe? Typically game series that are 'extremely popular' don't suddenly have the majority of their users abandoning the purchase of games within that series. I find it hard to imagine that someone who loved the first Layton game and bought it, is going to hear about a sequel and go, "Think I'll pirate this time."

Maybe that's what is happening, but that doesn't logically follow. Then again, I'm not suggesting that people are always logical.

No, I'm saying in the case that Layton's sales were lackluster that's the reasonning that would be used, I don't actually know how it did.
sorry for not being clear on this, although it's true that it's in Europe that Layton is popular and I doubt that the 2nd installment had lackluster sales, but I went with it against my better judgement :lol
So yeah that might make it hard to reason on this case.

 

[Kilrogg]

But then why are we assuming that the customers are doing something wrong and not the company publishing the title? I mean, this sounds an awful lot like PSP software excuses - jumping to 'piracy' (and no, I'm not suggesting there is none) rather than accepting that the product they released, or the manner in which they released it, is quite possibly to blame for it as well.

That's exactly what I'm suggesting : most of it has to do with the product itself. Not to say that piracy isn't a problem at all and that the blame for poor sales is to put solely on the game (and the company behind it), but it's the general thrust of my opinion, yeah.

[EDIT] Mael, I've just checked: Layton 2 sold more than 1.26 million units in Western countries. I don't know how that compares to sales expectations, but it doesn't seem too shabby either . Source: http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/pdf/2009/091030e.pdf

 

[lupinko]

Exactly. TONS of people buy pre-owned games here, and are against piracy. I really don't understand it. :lol

Well, preowned games are legal whereas pirated games be they the former physical and now the now more modern digital are illegal, which is a big difference.

 

[Mael]

So yeah Layton 2 is bloody bad example, like the rest of the games.
They probably all sold inline with expectations (unless they're Capcom....)

That's exactly what I'm suggesting : most of it has to do with the product itself. Not to say that piracy isn't a problem at all and that the blame for poor sales is to put solely on the game (and the company behind it), but it's the general thrust of my opinion, yeah.

You're right though about not putting the blame on consumers,
I mean the way I see it if they want better sales they have to get rid of illegal competition (weird that rom cards have not been made illegal yet since they usually don't serve any purpose other than to enable piracy AND if Nintendo managed to put the fear of death into any retailer that dealt into import they could probably do it for R4 too).
So far I've not seen them going after individuals more than the R4 providers and the R4 makers, which if you ask me is infinitely better and way more effective.
Thus they're not blaming the customers but the retailers (which is totally different), then again this affect only the average games.
I mean even on something as pirated as the ps1 or the ps2 (and ps1 had it WAY harder than the ds, believe me it was at a point that people only bought the biggest releases and the imports) there's some games that managed to do some good numbers.
Nintendo will probably need to put a security on the 3DS akin to what is found on the ps3 to lock it down.

But yeah still even if piracy is to blame for the loss of revenue the fault is squarely on the retailers of r4 cards and Nintendo (for making it possible) more than the general consumers.

 

[-KRS-]

I don't know about you guys, but I ride the bus here in Canada on an almost daily basis, and I've yet to see a single person with a DS who was playing a legitimate copy of a game.

I'm starting to think I'm the only one who actually buys games.

???

I'm sorry, but how do you know this? Do you demand to see the cartridge for the game they're playing?

Though to be fair, everyone I know with a DS has a flashcart for it as well, though I don't know a lot of people with DSs and most of them are pretty tech-savvy.