Support NeoGAF

[edbrat]

Teens and college kids will always pirate, damn the consequences. However, I think with some education initiatives, you can cut down on the number of parents buying R4's for their 8 year olds.

Obviously tech savvy teens and students pirate like hell but it was seeing really young kids with R4's in their DSs from a couple of years back which seemed to indicate that it would get v widespread in the UK. Having since spoken to some parents, as soon as one kid in the playground gets it then its game over. Jonny asks mummy why he can't have hundreds of games like Timmy, whines, Jonnys mum speaks to Timmys mum who points out dodgy dave at the market sells DS games for £10 for a few dozen at a time, how can that compete with £20 up per game?!

Jonny and Timmy care only about getting lots of games at the same time as their friends, Jonny and Timmys mums care only about saving money and keeping their offspring quiet. Copyright infringement is way down their list of priorities (if at all) unfortunately.

 

[The Faceless Master]

Unrelated figures, but still useful when considering thinking about ther terrible argument that
one pirated game = one lost sale.

US Government admits most piracy estimates are bogus

everyone knows this, i mean, there's people out there downloading 5000 roms, there's no way they'll ever *PLAY* them all, much less buy them if they couldn't pirate them.

 

[Cep]

But most people don't play games for only 5 minutes.

When you are pirating shit left and right? Yeah, you most likely are playing losts of things for only short amounts of time.

You put no true investment in it, so you do not have the drive to justify the purchase (similar things happen with used games and borrowed games).

 

[Mael]

Seriously I don't buy the too high price argument at all, especially since handheld game are the ones the least impacted by price hikes recently.
I mean when you have console games that went from 50bucks to nearly 80this gen, and handheld games being 40 all along (and now most new psp games are actually cheaper by 10 to 20 bucks than DS games).
And when you see that the drop in sales only affect the handheld the most easily piratable, it's not hard to draw parallel...
Although one could argue they're bogus if there's been no drop in Wii software sales although it could again be argue that Wii games don't drop due to accessories bundled with games.

 

[jibblypop]

Everytime someone sees my DS on the subway or anywhere, I get a comment like "awesome. I love the DS. You got an R4, right?" I can't believe how many strangers have said that to me in the past 2 years. This is in Canada but I wouldn't be surprised if Europe is exactly the same or worse.

 

[vodka-bull]

I've heard that developing shit could cause a significant decrease in sales too.

That said I've never heard a "thank you" from any developer out there for buying every game in retail.

So why is it so obvious to blame pirates instead of thanking customers?

 

[sphinx]

Costs of games is still no excuse for piracy. If you really want the game, manage your finances to the point where you can afford to drop 30 on a DS game. Otherwise don't buy video games.

I don't think that's the best philosophy a business company could have.

To make a case, let me put it this way:

In the store, Mario 64 DS cost €39.99. From all the people in all of Germany that want to play SM64DS, 50% will buy the game. That's a win for nintendo. The other 50% will not buy it at that price, never ever.

From this 50%, one half is definitely lost, they take piracy as a way of life, no matter prices, incentives, etc. and will use flash carts regardless. the other half, however, would definitely buy it at a €15 price and even some of them would even impulse buy it at €20, it's Mario after all. I know I would. Some uninformed parents would definitely buy games for their children at €15 if they costed that (and no, you can't fool most kid, they want the expensive Pokemon, not the cheap bargain bin filler)

How many sales of a 2004 cheap, nasty port of a N64 game like SM64DS is nintendo missing because they refused to introduce "Player's Choice" games this generation? A ton.

How many of this uninformed buyers will take measures, do their research and look for alternatives like Piracy because of the high price tags like SM64DS? Yes, a lot.

How many people will simply not buy software anymore, maybe the Zelda every 3 or 4 years ,(Like me) because every other crap game like Gijoe ds and Avatar ds cost €39.99making an impulse/uninformed purchase at that price too much of a risk? a lot.

Nintendo should consider their policies in Europe. I don't support piracy but I have absolutely no sympathy for nintendo in this regard. In fact, serves them well if they are having troubles.

 

[Kunan]

Iwata said that the reason they don't have a player's choice is because it makes early adopters feel jilted, and because people will just wait for the price to drop (see iPhone games, people just wait for drops) because they're expected in a few months instead of paying full price. After 4 years, it makes sense to drop it. but they have their reasons. Also, their games continue to sell A LOT over a huge period of time whereas other companies' games have long gone to the triple digits or less and require the price drop to clear stock.

 

[The Faceless Master]

I don't think that's the best philosophy a business company could have.

To make a case, let me put it this way:

In the store, Mario 64 DS cost €39.99. From all the people in all of Germany that want to play SM64DS, 50% will buy the game. That's a win for nintendo. The other 50% will not buy it at that price, never ever.

From this 50%, one half is definitely lost, they take piracy as a way of life, no matter prices, incentives, etc. and will use flash carts regardless. the other half, however, would definitely buy it at a €15 price and even some of them would even impulse buy it at €20, it's Mario after all. I know I would. Some uninformed parents would definitely buy games for their children at €15 if they costed that (and no, you can't fool most kid, they want the expensive Pokemon, not the cheap bargain bin filler)

How many sales of a 2004 cheap, nasty port of a N64 game like SM64DS is nintendo missing because they refused to introduce "Player's Choice" games this generation? A ton.

How many of this uninformed buyers will take measures, do their research and look for alternatives like Piracy because of the high price tags like SM64DS? Yes, a lot.

How many people will simply not buy software anymore, maybe the Zelda every 3 or 4 years ,(Like me) because every other crap game like Gijoe ds and Avatar ds cost €39.99making an impulse/uninformed purchase at that price too much of a risk? a lot.

Nintendo should consider their policies in Europe. I don't support piracy but I have absolutely no sympathy for nintendo in this regard. In fact, serves them well if they are having troubles.

Nintendo would rather people pirate games than lower the price and negatively affect people's views on the percieved value of Nintendo's games.

 

[leroy hacker]

Nintendo would rather people pirate games than lower the price and negatively affect people's views on the percieved value of Nintendo's games.

Not only that, Nintendo would rather let games go out of print than drop the price.

 

[Kunan]

Nintendo would rather people pirate games than lower the price and negatively affect people's views on the percieved value of Nintendo's games.

Exactly. The last thing Nintendo wants is their games in the massive Walmart bargain bins, that would do a lot to wreck the image of the Nintendo name in the corner.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

Newsflash: Stop making shovel-wares and maybe people will but them...

 

[SmZA]

Out of my circle of gaming acquaintances, one person mods his 360. He's gone through about 4-5 now, thanks to bannings and red rings. It's taken him a lot of effort to keep ahead of MS with his firmware, though he now has one legit console to play online so MS have partially won.

I am the only person in my gaming circle who buys DS games legitimately. The only one. The others can download and play a game at a moment's notice; to get the games I want at a decent price I regularly trawl bargain lists online or import. I've never paid full price ($AU70) for a DS game. I expend more effort to buy my DS games legitimately and cheaply than my buddy above does to pirate on his 360.

It's just taken for granted here that when you get a DS you get a pirate cart to go with it. If I'm ever asked about pirate carts (as one of my bosses once did) I'll just say I don't know much about them or that the websites they go to will be full of viruses. I won't use the piracy argument, it just wouldn't carry any weight.

 

[red shoe paul]

When you are pirating shit left and right? Yeah, you most likely are playing losts of things for only short amounts of time.

You put no true investment in it, so you do not have the drive to justify the purchase (similar things happen with used games and borrowed games).

Or maybe you just don't have time? I got Uncharted 2 in December and didn't get around to playing it until February.

 

[Cep]

Or maybe you just don't have time? I got Uncharted 2 in December and didn't get around to playing it until February.

Well yeah, but most sane people usually only buy games full-priced when they know they have the time to play it.

But I suppose gaf is hardly what I would call sane.

 

[m.i.s.]

Obviously tech savvy teens and students pirate like hell but it was seeing really young kids with R4's in their DSs from a couple of years back which seemed to indicate that it would get v widespread in the UK. Having since spoken to some parents, as soon as one kid in the playground gets it then its game over. Jonny asks mummy why he can't have hundreds of games like Timmy, whines, Jonnys mum speaks to Timmys mum who points out dodgy dave at the market sells DS games for £10 for a few dozen at a time, how can that compete with £20 up per game?!

Jonny and Timmy care only about getting lots of games at the same time as their friends, Jonny and Timmys mums care only about saving money and keeping their offspring quiet. Copyright infringement is way down their list of priorities (if at all) unfortunately.

Spot on. Popular consoles always have this problem but with flash storage prices plummeting, it's become so cheap now to have literally dozens of games on just one relatively small sized flash card.

Nintendo should be worried. Very worried.

 

[vodka-bull]

Out of my circle of gaming acquaintances, one person mods his 360. He's gone through about 4-5 now, thanks to bannings and red rings. It's taken him a lot of effort to keep ahead of MS with his firmware, though he now has one legit console to play online so MS have partially won.

5*price of xbox = epic win for microsoft, also known as a piracy blaming company.

 

[Mael]

5*price of xbox = epic win for microsoft, also known as a piracy blaming company.

:lol :lol
because you really think Microsoft doesn't lose revenue when people pirate Windows?

 

[red shoe paul]

:lol :lol
because you really think Microsoft doesn't lose revenue when people pirate Windows?

Interested in why you said this..
I think it's a loss.

 

[sphinx]

the Mario 64 example is just to make a case, it could be argued that nintendo offers quality and even if you paid the money, you would get a good game at least.... still, these games should have a player's choice version after 2 or 3 years, in my opinion.

Problem is, there are TONS OF GAMES, crappy, 3rd party no-name games at the €39.99 price tag here in Europe, it's insane. Even middle quality games like Infinite Space are way too much at €39.99, the fuck I will buy a game from a franchise I know nothing about, no matter how many positive reviews the GAF thread may have.

I Mario or Pokemon are succesful brands, good, price them high, people know its quality but eveything else should remain at a maximum of €25, regardless of genre or style, specially if no particular big budget was used for advertising or ingame production.

 

[Mael]

Interested in why you said this..
I think it's a loss.

That was my point, Microsoft is maybe the only tech company right now that can blame lost revenue on piracy without a shadow of doubt :-/
Then again they pretty much killed a sector so they kinda had it coming to them :lol
And DS games are not all equal.
touch Generation games are ALL 30€ max, why is there such a price difference between Picross 3D and Style Savvy? I'm not one to answer questions I don't have a clue on.

 

[Jintor]

I live in Australia. I think games here are more expensive than in the US (They used to be full-priced games, now they're around $50 or so). Not sure by how much. Anyway, I just wanted to say that my reaction with high prices is just to goddamn check which games I'm actually buying, and to make sure general consumer reaction is good and whatnot. So basically the only games on my shelf are the Ace Attorney Series, Pokemon Heart/Gold, Scribblenauts, and Advance Wars: Dual Strike.

I can definitely see the flash cart nightmare scenario though - I certainly remember it from when I was a kid and had a gameboy and went to Asia on holiday. I still probably have a bunch of 100-game-in-one gameboy carts somewhere in the house that my parents bought to shut me up when I was whining in Hong Kong... but tech has moved on from those days and now the games are real, not some hacked SNES emulators for the Game Boy.

I don't know to what extent Nintendo could manage some kind of digital download service and legitimize their own branded flash cartridges, or to change carts in such a way that gameplay is inhibited if you don't buy a real version (HeartGold + the PokeWalker was a pretty good step, imho) but they should probably be looking into that.

 

[DungeonO]

Newsflash: Stop making shovel-wares and maybe people will but them...

lol what shovelware does Nintendo make?

 

[Mael]

not some hacked SNES emulators for the Game Boy.

If you're not saying GameBoy Advance, how would that even work?

 

[red shoe paul]

lol what shovelware does Nintendo make?

We're talking about DS shovelware in general.

 

[Vagabundo]

Game prices are too high in general and the DS is just riding the curve.

10-20 euro should be the price for most DS games/mobile/small screen games. And they need to be downloadable too.
20-40 euro for most console/PC games.

PC's games aren't too bad. I think it is the most competitively priced platform. But I also think most console/PC games should be shorter and more polished - cut the filler - so my views are probably not the norm.

Having a decent barrier to cracking a system is a must too. I can see this being one of the reasons the 3DS is coming out, but the Wii suffers from this too.

 

[Burai]

I'm part of the problem, I haven't bought a DS game in the last year.. but that's because there haven't been any I've been interested in.

Maybe Nintendo need to look into the quality of DS titles instead of blaming the drop in sales on piracy.

Seriously this. The DS has been practically dead in terms of worthwhile releases for the past year or so. Pokemon is the first big, hyped release in ages.

 

[zigg]

I'm not arguing on the side of pirates, I'm just debating Nintendo's logic that piracy is the reason why sales have dropped.

Ah, okay, I see what you're saying now. Sorry.

I personally do think it's a mix, just judging from the sheer ubiquity of piracy on the platform. How much of a mix, I'm not sure. But I am sure that if piracy was inconvenient, there would at least be some number of increased sales. Even given the Mario 64 DS case and the reluctance of many devs/pubs to develop for a piracy-ridden platform, there are still new games being introduced and I am sure that in such an environment they'd still sell some number more than they are now.

Seriously this. The DS has been practically dead in terms of worthwhile releases for the past year or so. Pokemon is the first big, hyped release in ages.

(again) Devs and pubs don't want to touch a piracy-ridden platform if they think their titles run the risk of being sensations in that "market" while languishing in the legal market.

 

[Vizion28]

Some people will say anything to try to justify piracy but I guarantee if it were their own copyrighted material - something they have spent a lot of time and money on - they would change their tune.

Why doesn't Nintendo flood those sites with fake ROMS to discourage illegal downloading? With all the money they are making I wonder why Nintendo can't hire people to do it.

 

[m.i.s.]

So do we now officially need a new gif -

itdoesntprintmoneyanymore.gif

 

[LakeEarth]

In June 2009, Nintendo monitored 10 websites based overseas that allowed people to illicitly download game software, and found that software had been pirated a total 238 million times.

Multiplied by the average unit price for software, the figure translates into 1 trillion yen ($10.7 billion) in lost sales.

Yeah cause that's how it works.

 

[shuri]

In a perfect world, Nintendo would beat the pirates by having their own itune-like client for pc that allowed users to download drm-protected copies of purchased games straight to the console/handheld. It would be the best solution.

 

[zigg]

Why doesn't Nintendo flood those sites with fake ROMS to discourage illegal downloading? With all the money they are making I wonder why Nintendo can't hire people to do it.

Game piracy seems actually fairly well-organized with regards to checksumming files and such—I don't think it'd work.

 

[Mael]

In a perfect world, Nintendo would beat the pirates by having their own itune-like client for pc that allowed users to download drm-protected copies of purchased games straight to the console/handheld. It would be the best solution.

iDS for the DSi and Wii and they'd sell DScart to be compatible with it?
I don't see why not although retailers will hate it

 

[Vizion28]

Game piracy seems actually fairly well-organized with regards to checksumming files and such—I don't think it'd work.

What about bit torrents?

 

[jorma]

:lol :lol
because you really think Microsoft doesn't lose revenue when people pirate Windows?

Actually, no - not really. Someone using a pirated copy of windows is probably much better for microsoft than someone using a free os instead, since it helps the windows hegemony prevailing.

 

[vodka-bull]

In a perfect world, Nintendo would beat the pirates by having their own itune-like client for pc that allowed users to download drm-protected copies of purchased games straight to the console/handheld. It would be the best solution.

Please stop calling digital distribution the best solution.

 

[Princess Skittles]

Oh good, another thread where GAFfers who probably pirate the shit out of games are going to furiously rage at companies who for some reason have a problem with people illegally stealing their property.

.

 

[Cynar]

I don't know about anyone else but the only games I use my ds for are pokemon. There's no games I'm interested in buying lately on the system due to it being constantly pummelled with shovelware crap. The only other ds game I'm looking forward to is 4 heroes of light and who knows when that will be out. I used to buy so many ds games when it came out but there's nothing as good to buy as when the system was first out within the first 2-3 years except the odd gem (TWEWY).

I blame the casual focus the system took on myself. Same reason I rarely use my wii and go more and more to my 360.

 

[shuri]

iDS for the DSi and Wii and they'd sell DScart to be compatible with it?
I don't see why not although retailers will hate it

Exactly. No more waiting in line, no more hard to find titles. The DScart could store a LOT of titles (heck, nintendo could cashin by making carts of different sizes, different colors), you would get a boot menu, access to a simplified manual, etc. Titles would become available release days, and so on.

Retailers would bow them. This is Nintendo.

 

[Vizion28]

Nintendo will probably have a novel propriety medium for 3DS which will make piracy virtually impossible.

 

[Mael]

Actually, no - not really. Someone using a pirated copy of windows is probably much better for microsoft than someone using a free os instead, since it helps the windows hegemony prevailing.

They're still losing revenue, I mean at this point if you're pirating Windows chances are you're not into Apple or in the mood to try Linux anyway.
I'm not saying they prefer people to switch I'm saying they're still losing revenue.

Exactly. No more waiting in line, no more hard to find titles. The DScart could store a LOT of titles (heck, nintendo could cashin by making carts of different sizes, different colors), you would get a boot menu, access to a simplified manual, etc. Titles would become available release days, and so on.

Retailers would bow them. This is Nintendo.

That's a digital future that wouldn't sent me running to the hills awaiting the end of the dark digital age IF the Dl'd games are not 40bucks a pop. But still WAY better than the crap Sony pulled with the PspGo

 

[zigg]

Nintendo will probably have a novel propriety medium for 3DS which will make piracy virtually impossible.

It's really not the medium that's the problem; it's just that the DS's "security" never really amounted to much.

The DSi's own security has proved good so far—except when it comes to playing DS games; it must necessarily lower its own security to run them.

Hopefully, for their sake, it's an indication they've learned enough lessons to not leave holes big enough to drive trucks through in 3DS's system software.

 

[Taker666]

Maybe Nintendo should include a peripheral with every new game (and the game won't play without it)

I wonder if a password system based on the game manual might cause pirates a few hassles (find the 5th word on page 18 etc)? or would it be easy enough to just find a workaround?

Obviously the manuals would end up being scanned and uploaded..but having to scan every page of every manual would at least be an extra layer of annoyance for those who rip the games.

 

[-MB-]

It's really not the medium that's the problem; it's just that the DS's "security" never really amounted to much.

The DSi's own security has proved good so far—except when it comes to playing DS games; it must necessarily lower its own security to run them.

Hopefully, for their sake, it's an indication they've learned enough lessons to not leave holes big enough to drive trucks through in 3DS's system software.

The problem with the ds was, that the backwards comaptibility with gba titles was a liablity.
Fairly soon, gba flashcards were ds compatible and played games with a slot 1 passthrough solution.
And obviously, the fact dsi also playes ds cats made it vulnerable too.
After 2 attempts with fw updates to block ds piracy, the pretty much gave up.

For this reason I honestly think, they will just forego hardware BC with the 3ds. ie. no ds slot 1 for ds games.

 

[GSG Flash]

Some people will say anything to try to justify piracy but I guarantee if it were their own copyrighted material - something they have spent a lot of time and money on - they would change their tune.

Why doesn't Nintendo flood those sites with fake ROMS to discourage illegal downloading? With all the money they are making I wonder why Nintendo can't hire people to do it.

It's not as if Nintendo isn't trying. I think it took more than 2 weeks for Pokemon HG/SS to finally be hacked to be able to play it since the antipiracy code in the game basically made it unplayable.

 

[zigg]

The problem with the ds was, that the backwards comaptibility with gba titles was a liablity.
Fairly soon, gba flashcards were ds compatible and played games with a slot 1 passthrough solution.
And obviously, the fact dsi also playes ds cats made it vulnerable too.
After 2 attempts with fw updates to block ds piracy, the pretty much gave up.

Slot 2 helped get the game started, but slot 1 needed to be tackled to boot in DS mode in the first place (remember the PassMe?) That happened really quickly. And then there turned out to be some really huge holes in the security for booting DS games.

Just like Wii, the system was designed with the security holes that enabled easy piracy from day one, and due to the software already on the market, it was very difficult to change it after-the-fact.

For this reason I honestly think, they will just forego hardware BC with the 3ds. ie. no ds slot 1 for ds games.

Well, they've already announced compatibility with DS and DSi, so no, that's almost certainly not going to happen.

 

[Sloane]

Seriously this. The DS has been practically dead in terms of worthwhile releases for the past year or so.

Mario & Luigi? Zelda? Layton? GTA? Might & Magic? Dawn of Discovery? Edgeworth? Broken Sword?

 

[Tain]

but I sincerely hope neither of you are trying to make the case that one download equals zero sales.

The real number is somewhere in-between and probably not really quantifiable

i hear nintendo's calculations are "one download = three sales" actually

 

[Mael]

And seriously can one explain why the drop is EU only and does NOT affect the US?
It's not like it's harder for americans to use the r4, right?