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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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FrankWza

Member
I don't think anyone else could have with fully licensed teams, players, gear, stadiums, etc. Thats all in the MLB deal with Sony.
I thought when the deal happened they were all allowed to make their own games. Maybe it changed again and went exclusively Sony but I thought in the beginning that was the deal.
This is also a great point to consider. I know EA has had their eye on completing with Sony for the MLB license for a while now. So Sony launching The Show multiplatform establishes the franchise as the defacto baseball game franchise on all platforms, not just PS; thus leaving no room for others to come in with their own franchises on competing platforms.
might not have been the worst thing. Competition is good for sports games and MVP baseball is the best baseball game ever.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
I'm gonna try RT mode on Control PS5, but I think I'll stick with 60fps mode.

I actually hope for a PS5 Pro which would let you have Quality mode + 60fps (or even 120fps in some cases) + Ray Tracing.
I was thinking about this yesterday, and if there is a PS5 Pro, it would be something like a 6800xt which isnt really the greatest ray tracing GPU giving only 43 fps in Control at 1440p. I suppose with the PS5 settings, it might be able to run at 60 fps since PS5 is missing ray traced lighting, debris and a couple other features.
 

kyliethicc

Member
I thought when the deal happened they were all allowed to make their own games. Maybe it changed again and went exclusively Sony but I thought in the beginning that was the deal.

might not have been the worst thing. Competition is good for sports games and MVP baseball is the best baseball game ever.
Maybe idk. I know their is another baseball game that gets bad reviews, never played it though.

I assume the MLB pushed Sony to put it on Xbox, cause otherwise I assume Sony would have a long time ago. I just doubt Sony chose on their own to put the game on xbox.

I assume it was either due to risk of losing the license or some cash was exchanged or something. Just my guess.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
There's even different types of culling, e.g. back-face culling, occlusion culling / Z-culling etc..
Yes Face-culling (based on the direction something is facing, which could be to remove the front or back4), occlusion culling (when an object hides parts of itself, like say a camel with 2 humps), z-culling (when you are behind something else, aka depth based) The vast majority of uses for that involve hiding something invisible, to the point where generally that's what people mean. The only kind of culling for hiding visible polygons is front-face culling, used for various graphical tricks.


Reducing the geometric complexity of a polygon mesh is by definition culling because you're removing those triangles/primitives.

You don't call "scaling" "culling" because you aren't REMOVING triangles. Just because the end result is less triangles, doesn't mean you REMOVED existing triangles to get there. You draw an image with an entirely different amount of triangles but they are also DIFFERENT triangles.

UE5 goes from 1 billion polygons to 20 million lossless, through it's compression/scaling algorithm.

It then culls loads of polygons. AKA removes them, from that scene. But that first step is not called CULLING. (to be clear, it might do culling at the same time as the scaling, I don't know.. but those are 2 different things.)
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
The license agreement was coming to an end so MLB said either make it multiplatform or we will not sign with you (Sony)

it was 100% driven by MLB
they cannot force sony to publish this game on other consoles. thats ridiculous. sony makes this game with 100% of their own funding.

Unlike Madden, there is no exclusive deal in place. Microsoft and Nintendo are allowed to make their own MLB games. All Sony has to do is license it which isnt an exclusive agreement. This isnt the first Sony game to go multiplatform. Horizon is on PC. Sony's gaming division is going through some changes. Expect more games to come to PC.
 

FrankWza

Member
Maybe idk. I know their is another baseball game that gets bad reviews, never played it though.

I assume the MLB pushed Sony to put it on Xbox, cause otherwise I assume Sony would have a long time ago. I just doubt Sony chose on their own to put the game on xbox.

I assume it was either due to risk of losing the license or some cash was exchanged or something. Just my guess.
Back when ea got madden and lost mlb rights Sony and take two were the only ones that made a game. Then take two didn’t sell well on either platform and stopped being made and Sony continued making the show. It must not have been worth it to Msoft and Nintendo to make their own game. But now, yeah, I’m sure mlb pushed it through. Probably easier for everyone since the franchise is established and Msoft and Nintendo don’t have to spring for development costs. And for Sony it keeps 3rd party competition away
 

HeisenbergFX4

Gold Member
they cannot force sony to publish this game on other consoles. thats ridiculous. sony makes this game with 100% of their own funding.

Unlike Madden, there is no exclusive deal in place. Microsoft and Nintendo are allowed to make their own MLB games. All Sony has to do is license it which isnt an exclusive agreement. This isnt the first Sony game to go multiplatform. Horizon is on PC. Sony's gaming division is going through some changes. Expect more games to come to PC.

He is 100% correct at least thats what Mike Ybarra told me when he was still with Xbox, MLB forced this.
 

LucidFlux

Member
I was thinking about this yesterday, and if there is a PS5 Pro, it would be something like a 6800xt which isnt really the greatest ray tracing GPU giving only 43 fps in Control at 1440p. I suppose with the PS5 settings, it might be able to run at 60 fps since PS5 is missing ray traced lighting, debris and a couple other features.

You're only looking at the improved rasterization additional CU's (and a higher clock speed thanks to a smaller node) would bring to the pro console. If we're talking ~3 years for the pro consoles, AMD will have also have likely gone through several iterations of their RT implementation by then so I would also expect a RT performance increase as well.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Seemingly for Samsung TV owners

Huh; honestly wouldn't put too much faith into this considering it's from a forum post from a Samsung community member..

But.. honestly this makes more sense than Samsung having a bug. Sony just doesn't seem to be at the cutting edge of these kind of features in their own TVs, so not exactly surprising they didn't nail the PS5's version of them right out the gate.
 

Dibils2k

Member
they cannot force sony to publish this game on other consoles. thats ridiculous. sony makes this game with 100% of their own funding.

Unlike Madden, there is no exclusive deal in place. Microsoft and Nintendo are allowed to make their own MLB games. All Sony has to do is license it which isnt an exclusive agreement. This isnt the first Sony game to go multiplatform. Horizon is on PC. Sony's gaming division is going through some changes. Expect more games to come to PC.
The can force it, since Sony was licensing the MLB license, and that license/agreement was coming to an end, meaning there is now room for negotiation. Just like how now that EAs license of Star Wards finished Disney have taken a new approach to how they license out the IP, Disney could easily have also stayed exclusive to EA
 

Dibils2k

Member
Not that I don't believe it, but is there a link for where this report comes from?

It makes sense, but I just haven't heard the MLB license was up for renewal yet.
I dont think there is an word for word announcement of it coming to an end (i mean i dont think Sony would want this announced unless they werent matching the demands) but they did announce extension, which you can assume was because it was coming to an end:

Major League Baseball (MLB) has extended its partnership with Sony Interactive Entertainment (SIE) and videogame developer San Diego Studio in a multi-year gaming deal.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
they cannot force sony to publish this game on other consoles. thats ridiculous. sony makes this game with 100% of their own funding.

Unlike Madden, there is no exclusive deal in place. Microsoft and Nintendo are allowed to make their own MLB games. All Sony has to do is license it which isnt an exclusive agreement. This isnt the first Sony game to go multiplatform. Horizon is on PC. Sony's gaming division is going through some changes. Expect more games to come to PC.
It's not "forcing them."

It's saying "we won't sell you/renew the license unless you do this."

Sony has the option of giving up the license.

edit: To be clear, just explaining what people are guessing.. but.. it's the only thing that makes any sense.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes

can we at least get a list of next gen enhancements? I have no idea why this is taking so long.

I really hope we see a massive improvement in visual quality. The PS4 versions never looked as good as their original gifs.

EDIT: this is what they promised us at the start of last gen, and we never even got close to this even on the pro. The lighting, the reflections, hair tech and skin shaders never looked this good even on MLB 19 which was the last MLB game I played.

2455125-2446891602-23678.gif
 
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DeepEnigma

Gold Member
can we at least get a list of next gen enhancements? I have no idea why this is taking so long.

I really hope we see a massive improvement in visual quality. The PS4 versions never looked as good as their original gifs.

EDIT: this is what they promised us at the start of last gen, and we never even got close to this even on the pro. The lighting, the reflections, hair tech and skin shaders never looked this good even on MLB 19 which was the last MLB game I played.

2455125-2446891602-23678.gif
It looked that good on my screen. Did you go into replay mode and zoom in to the players?
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
It looked that good on my screen. Did you go into replay mode and zoom in to the players?
nope, but I had the player walk ups enabled and it never looked that good. the face models did get an upgrade over time, but the lighting, reflections and hair never even came close.
 
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kyliethicc

Member
They unified 4k checkerboarding mode 30fps with 1080p 60fps mode in only one mode.

It's a BC, not a port.

The Last of Us part 2 in 1440p 30fps should have a PS5 port to run in 4k 60fps.
Its seems more likely that TLOUpt2 will have a full blown PS5 version. Like Spider-Man Remastered and Miles Morales, where it got 4K 60 mode, RT mode, DualSense support, activity cards, super fast loading, etc.

If all Naughty Dog was gonna do was patch it to 60 FPS, they would have said so by now.

Notice how Spider-Man PS4 never got patched for PS5? Cause they did the remaster instead. Seems like TLOU2 and Death Stranding and maybe even Horizon Zero Dawn could all be getting new paid PS5 re-releases / remasters.
 
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Its seems more likely that TLOUpt2 will have a full blown PS5 version. Like Spider-Man Remastered and Miles Morales, where it got 4K 60 mode, RT mode, DualSense support, activity cards, super fast loading, etc.

If all Naughty Dog was gonna do was patch it to 60 FPS, they would have said so by now.

Notice how Spider-Man PS4 never got patched for PS5? Cause they did the remaster instead. Seems like TLOU2 and Death Stranding and maybe even Horizon Zero Dawn could all be getting new paid PS5 re-releases / remasters.

I don't think I would pay extra just to get 60 fps at 4k. But I am sure others will .....

TLOU2 had amazing graphics but if all they plan to do is bump it to 4k and increase the fps, it might as well be a free patch like God of War
 

kyliethicc

Member
I don't think I would pay extra just to get 60 fps at 4k. But I am sure others will .....

TLOU2 had amazing graphics but if all they plan to do is bump it to 4k and increase the fps, it might as well be a free patch like God of War
I kinda think they'll put out a standalone multiplayer game for like $40 and then do the $70 deluxe edition on PS5 that is the multiplayer + remastered PS5 version of the singleplayer.

It'd be a lot more than just a 4K60 patch. Same as Spider-Man remastered. New assets, RT, dualsense, UI, audio, loading, etc. A legit PS5 version not just a patch. If all ND were planning was a 60 FPS patch, they could have had that out for the PS5 launch last year.
 
Yes Face-culling (based on the direction something is facing, which could be to remove the front or back4), occlusion culling (when an object hides parts of itself, like say a camel with 2 humps), z-culling (when you are behind something else, aka depth based) The vast majority of uses for that involve hiding something invisible, to the point where generally that's what people mean. The only kind of culling for hiding visible polygons is front-face culling, used for various graphical tricks.

I'm sure it isn't the only method of culling for removing (not hiding) visible polygons. Culling is an umbrella terms for any number of techniques geared towards removing polygons. Even Three Jackdaws Three Jackdaws 's post listed two more entirely new methods (one utilizing a voxel octree acceleration structure) of culling. These are all still culling because they're removing tris.

You seem to be trying to rigidly limit the definition to a fixed collection of techniques, when "culling" as it is understood as a practice in computer graphics has no such limitation on its definition.
You don't call "scaling" "culling" because you aren't REMOVING triangles. Just because the end result is less triangles, doesn't mean you REMOVED existing triangles to get there.

This is just wrong.

Of course the triangles are removed. They're gone. They're not hidden. From the perspective of the renderer at runtime, they're not there anymore. So if the end result is less triangles, it's "culling" by definition.

I don't understand how "scaling" even comes into it. There is no definition of "scaling" in computer graphics that speaks to a reduction of polygons in a mesh. You seem to be conflating terms.

You draw an image with an entirely different amount of triangles but they are also DIFFERENT triangles.

Nope. You're taking the base polygonal mesh and you procedurally step through the model either poly-by-poly, or by some sub-division of the model, removing triangles on the basis of a given set of heuristics.

It's analogous to tessellation, on in the inverse, where instead of taking a mesh and sub-dividing tris to increase geometric complexity, you're doing the opposite. The tris that remain existed in the original mesh, although some of course would have been scaled in size and orientation to ensure a complete mesh.

UE5 goes from 1 billion polygons to 20 million lossless, through it's compression/scaling algorithm.

This is absurdly false. How can you call a reduction of polygons "lossless". You're losing information (in this case triangles) by definition.

It isn't a form of scaling at all.

With respect, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

It then culls loads of polygons. AKA removes them, from that scene. But that first step is not called CULLING. (to be clear, it might do culling at the same time as the scaling, I don't know.. but those are 2 different things.)

So according to your weird logic, Nanite culls polygons, i.e. removes them... but it's not called culling, and polygons aren't removed because it's scaling/compression?

How can you not see how illogical this sounds?

He is 100% correct at least thats what Mike Ybarra told me when he was still with Xbox, MLB forced this.

Thanks for the clarification. Seems like a reasonable source.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
I'm sure it isn't the only method of culling for removing (not hiding) visible polygons.

I used "remove" in that paragraph; great.. you found my one mis-use of "hiding." The other mention of "hiding" in that sentence is referring to removing polygons that are hidden by the object itself. I also used "removing" in my last post you quoted.. but sure, pretend I don't know what it means.

This is absurdly false. How can you call a reduction of polygons "lossless". You're losing information (in this case triangles) by definition.

It's literally what Epic called it.. in their UE5 presentation. "There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles." 2 minutes and 10 seconds into the original video. There is no loss of detail, because it's pointless to have 1 billion polygons when you only have ~8 million pixels.

It isn't a form of scaling at all.

With respect, you don't seem to know what you're talking about.

Strange, since Epic calls it scaling.

"Nanite geometry is streamed and scaled in real time so there are no more polygon count budgets"

Source: https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/a-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5


So according to your weird logic, Nanite culls polygons, i.e. removes them... but it's not called culling, and polygons aren't removed because it's scaling/compression?

How can you not see how illogical this sounds?

To produce an image with less polygons is different from removing polygons from an image.

Not gonna explain such a basic concept to someone so obviously full of shit.

With no respect, you don't seem to know what you are talking about.
 
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I used "remove" in that paragraph; great.. you found my one mis-use of "hiding." The other mention of "hiding" in that sentence is referring to removing polygons that are hidden by the object itself. I also used "removing" in my last post you quoted.. but sure, pretend I don't know what it means.

Learn to be more clear. I'm not a mind reader and if you use a word and mean something else, that's on your for your poor use of english.

It's literally what Epic called it.. in their UE5 presentation. "There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles." 2 minutes and 10 seconds into the original video. There is no loss of detail, because it's pointless to have 1 billion polygons when you only have ~8 million pixels.

They're referencing the base asset on the disk. You're evidently not deleting geometry from the base asset on the disk. So it's "lossless" in that sense. But in the context of how you were using the term "lossless" to explain why Nanite isn't culling, you're using it incorrectly.

Strange, since Epic calls it scaling.

"Nanite geometry is streamed and scaled in real time so there are no more polygon count budgets"

Source: https://www.unrealengine.com/en-US/blog/a-first-look-at-unreal-engine-5

I already explained this to you. The tech culls geometry and scales the remaining tris. You can't take a 1b poly model, remove triangles and not scale the existing tris to close the gaps in the model. That is what is referenced here.

You're not even understanding the comments you're reading properly.

To produce an image with less polygons is different from removing polygons from an image.

You're not removing geometry from an image, because the image (i.e. output pixel grid or frame) doesn't have any geometry. You're removing geometry in object space. The image lives in screen space, which is further down the rendering pipeline following the rasterization step. You're taking the base asset mesh and removing polys (i.e. culling) before rasterization.

To produce an image with less polygons than the base mesh requires culling full stop. You have to remove triangles and that is what culling is. All types of culling including back-face, occlusion etc, is removing tris that existed in the base asset meshes for rendering. What Nanite is doing results in the same, therefore it is culling. The approach might be different but the result is the same.

Culling by definition refers to the result not the approach. This is what you seem to fail to grasp.

Not gonna explain such a basic concept to someone so obviously full of shit.

With no respect, you don't seem to know what you are talking about.

You don't need to explain shit because you clearly don't have a firm grasp of the subject matter. I think at this point, after being patiently called out on your error, and after your stubborn insistence in that same error and now the entirely uncalled for rudeness above, you're going on the ignore list.

There's really no need to be such an ass just because you can't admit when you're wrong.
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
Learn to be more clear. I'm not a mind reader and if you use a word and mean something else, that's on your for your poor use of english.

You don't have to read my mind; just my posts that you quote. I used "remove" in that same quote, and "removing" in the first post you quoted.

They're referencing the base asset on the disk. You're evidently not deleting geometry from the base asset on the disk. So it's "lossless" in that sense. But in the context of how you were using the term "lossless" to explain why Nanite isn't culling, you're using it incorrectly.

God you are so full of shit.

I already explained this to you. The tech culls geometry and scales the remaining tris.
Full of shit troll.
 
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Some posters here really have issues. I mean, you consistently quote industry figures out of context, consistently misunderstand said quotes and then when other posters try to explain where you're incorrect in your reasoning you jump straight to ad hominem attacks.

it's pathetic and sad.
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
You: This is absurdly false. How can you call a reduction of polygons "lossless". You're losing information (in this case triangles) by definition.

Epic: There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles.


You: "It isn't a form of scaling at all. With respect, you don't seem to know what you're talking about."

Epic: "Nanite geometry is streamed and scaled in real time so there are no more polygon count budgets"

lol
 
You: This is absurdly false. How can you call a reduction of polygons "lossless". You're losing information (in this case triangles) by definition.

Epic: There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles.

Two different contexts:

Context: Culling during the rendering step
You: Nanite isn't culling because it's lossless scaling
Me: Culling can't be called lossless because by definition, information is being reduced

Context: With respect to the base asset on the disk
Epic: There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles.
Meaning: The process of reducing the geometry (i.e. culling) during rendering doesn't affect the 1bln poly base assets stored on the disk. They're still there. Therefore it is considered "lossless" from that frame of reference.

What Epic is saying =/= what you are saying.

You: "It isn't a form of scaling at all. With respect, you don't seem to know what you're talking about."

Never said this. I said culling isn't scaling. I also said and maintained that Nanite uses culling of polys, as well as scaling of non-removed polys... because it does.

It's your reading comprehension that's the issue here as well as your insistence in moving the goal posts to avoid acknowledging the flaws in your reasoning. You're simply arguing in bad faith, and it's become more and more obvious now.


P.S. I'm only responding to this post for the benefit of others following the discussion, in order to expose your poor attempt at a gotcha that is purely rooted in your gross misunderstanding of the subject matter and the posts you've been replying to.

As for you IntentionalPun IntentionalPun I have no intention of responding to anymore of your childish vitriol and I've reported you to the mods already. Lets see if anything becomes of it.
 
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IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
You: Nanite isn't culling because it's lossless scaling

Thing is.. my last post was literal word for word quotes of you... you just.. completely misquoted me here.

So here's how that convo went:

Me: "UE5 goes from 1 billion polygons to 20 million lossless"

You: "This is absurdly false. How can you call a reduction of polygons "lossless""

Epic: "There are over a billion triangles of source geometry in each frame, that Nanite crunches down losslessly to around 20 million drawn triangles"

I practically quoted Epic in my post you called "assuredly false."

You have the nerve to continue to insult me, ridiculous.
 
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