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[Redneckerz]

You appear to have a really simplistic understanding of how the industry works, so please continue to believe what you want to believe. Reality will catch up eventually.

Just to be clear (lol) just know you are liked by a user who admits just skimmed through the whole thing and so far has refused to address this.

Obviously they don't have to, but it is rather baseless to make what amounts to a naive post and then stop responding yet lurk the thread for posts that you agree with.

Not saying your post sucks (it doesn''t). I am just pointing out.

So all quiet on Zenimax front? Stratton not fired yet, no investigation launched by MS, nothing? Pretending nothing happened, business as usual?

It is certainly a surprising move. Perhaps by laying low, they may want to address it after the initial shit storm? Who knows.

I do think some kind of response needs to be in order though, aswell as more investigation in why Marty would do those things that are so very un-Marty of him to do.

Stratton publicly lied and then tried to buy public acceptance of those lies from Gordon. Fuck him.

Yeah this is also rather against what Mick said in his rebuttal.

I am surprised that when the victim is able not to go those grounds, people on GAF here have no issue going to that level. Probably because they aren't the actual victim and it is thus easier to tell people you don't really know to fuck off.

Excellent post, literally took the words out of my mouth.

Thank you

Also once more an excellent reminder that those addressed in that post so far have not responded which is the point of a forum to begin with. If you have bad takes, don't share them, its that simple.

If you had actual knowledge you'd know how low on the totem-pole music is, and thus how expendably composers and music producers are treated. Not saying that's right, just making the point that's how it is.

It is thus incredibly damning that Mick's lengthy rebuttal so far has seen little response from those in the know.
Perhaps it is quietly resolved behind the scenes, but i don't have my hopes up.

That being said, I have zero emotional or professional investment in this particular situation. I've just provided a counter-point to the pro-Mick fanboyism by trying to outline how the corporate camp thinks about this conflict.

Guess i have to respond with a .gif then, haha.

But sadly, the reality is indeed that these issues get little to no fanfare by corporate. After all, to them, the contract is fulfilled. So the business is done. That Mick feels something different entirely is, i reckon, ''That's like, your problem man'' situation.

 

[Clear]

I'm not desperate, I'm having a lot of fun with you.

Who am I to stand in the way of your masochism... let's really have some fun then

Look, once you start making non-strawman points that are actually pertaining to the issue at hand here, I'll stop making fun about your hay addiction, alright?
Doesn't look like that's anytime soon, though...

Sayeth theSHEEEP. Not being so familiar with the doings of livestock as you, I don't feel equipped to comment beyond, "huh ?"

*sigh* No.
Not a single person that can still rub some brain cells together disputes who owns and controls the product.
Bethesda does.
Mick was a contractor not actually owning the assets he delivered. As is normal for contractors.
Again, not at all what this is about.

So, the contractor (ID) apparently wasn't happy with the contractee's (Mick's) work/performance and that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with how things transpired?
They should have just STFU and let it slide for... reasons. Hmmm.

Another point that nobody contended, as it's an open "secret" (not really, since everybody in the industry and by now many outside know this).

It is, however, what this issue is actually about - how badly Mick was treated by ID/Marty.
Including just straight up lying publically.
I mean, the proof is all there, the dates, the contracts, the hush money (!!!), etc.

So what you're arguing here is that he (Mick) somehow didn't know what he was getting into (despite apparently *EVERYONE* knowing the score) and that Marty (representing ID/Bethesda) shouldn't have any sort of complaint or issue from their perspective?

Think critically for a moment. Why did he feel the need to put Chad onto preparing a version of the OST 6 months prior to any arrangement being made, presumably on top of his other responsibilities? That to me is a pretty obvious red-flag that the relationship had already broken down to some degree. Why else would they backstop the deliverable at their own expense if things weren't already gone awry?

I'm not privy to what brought this about and neither are you, the difference between us is that I'm happy to file this under "creative differences" and not go hard in the paint demonizing a particular side. Remember there are two sides to every story because a lot of the time meaning is a product of perspective.

Do you actually contend any points that Mick raises or what is your deal here?

I've contended nothing but the bleeding obvious!

"That's just how it is" or "he should've known better than to expect good treatment" is a pretty damn terrible defense of anything.
Or is all you are saying just "this isn't newsworthy, cause it's so common"?

What I'm saying is, "business is business" and keeping a contractor happy is nowhere near as significant an imperative as running a studio and a franchise.

What's the alternative?
Taking the hush money (the offer of which is in and off itself an admission of guilt in all but law) and publically accepting the blame wrongfully put on you through lies?

You think this is going to help Mick career-wise? Do you believe for a second they are going to shitcan a studio director over a minor business spat with a contractor?

Big companies pay off nuisance suits all the time, they can afford to take hits like that on the regular and its considered part of the price of doing business.

Just accepting the loss of reputation put onto you by the actions of others?

Not my place to make that judgement, by putting it out into the court of public opinion however entitles bystanders like me to express their opinion however.

I'm honestly curious about what you think Mick should've done considering all the things he brought to light through his statement.

Truthfully, I don't see why writing a rebuttal so lengthy that only pre-existing fans of his are ever going to bother reading it is going to have anything but negative consequences.

Personality clashes are a fact of life. Maybe Marty just doesn't like Mick, rate his work or whatever. He's entitled to his opinion, as is Mick to his. The issue is that when you take this sort of thing public it salts the earth and makes it harder for reconciliation down the line. By Marty making his post first it does appear that their relationship is to all intents and purposes dead, but by responding in this way what do you think the response is going to be from third-parties who may previously have considered hiring Mick?

Who wants to deal with a squeaky wheel?

I will write in any way I want to in order to add some spice and humor to a discussion.
And I couldn't care less what you think about that.

You are correct in not taking people in forum discussions very serious, though. I don't do that, etiher.

You do you. I get my pleasure from being right.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Who am I to stand in the way of your masochism... let's really have some fun then



Sayeth theSHEEEP. Not being so familiar with the doings of livestock as you, I don't feel equipped to comment beyond, "huh ?"





So, the contractor (ID) apparently wasn't happy with the contractee's (Mick's) work/performance and that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with how things transpired?
They should have just STFU and let it slide for... reasons. Hmmm.



So what you're arguing here is that he (Mick) somehow didn't know what he was getting into (despite apparently *EVERYONE* knowing the score) and that Marty (representing ID/Bethesda) shouldn't have any sort of complaint or issue from their perspective?

Think critically for a moment. Why did he feel the need to put Chad onto preparing a version of the OST 6 months prior to any arrangement being made, presumably on top of his other responsibilities? That to me is a pretty obvious red-flag that the relationship had already broken down to some degree. Why else would they backstop the deliverable at their own expense if things weren't already gone awry?

I'm not privy to what brought this about and neither are you, the difference between us is that I'm happy to file this under "creative differences" and not go hard in the paint demonizing a particular side. Remember there are two sides to every story because a lot of the time meaning is a product of perspective.



I've contended nothing but the bleeding obvious!



What I'm saying is, "business is business" and keeping a contractor happy is nowhere near as significant an imperative as running a studio and a franchise.



You think this is going to help Mick career-wise? Do you believe for a second they are going to shitcan a studio director over a minor business spat with a contractor?

Big companies pay off nuisance suits all the time, they can afford to take hits like that on the regular and its considered part of the price of doing business.



Not my place to make that judgement, by putting it out into the court of public opinion however entitles bystanders like me to express their opinion however.




Truthfully, I don't see why writing a rebuttal so lengthy that only pre-existing fans of his are ever going to bother reading it is going to have anything but negative consequences.

Personality clashes are a fact of life. Maybe Marty just doesn't like Mick, rate his work or whatever. He's entitled to his opinion, as is Mick to his. The issue is that when you take this sort of thing public it salts the earth and makes it harder for reconciliation down the line. By Marty making his post first it does appear that their relationship is to all intents and purposes dead, but by responding in this way what do you think the response is going to be from third-parties who may previously have considered hiring Mick?

Who wants to deal with a squeaky wheel?




You do you. I get my pleasure from being right.

I think we found the sleazy manager in the room. Issues like not getting paid for work completed and having work stolen go far beyond artistic differences, but you do you and keep pleasuring yourself with how right you are.

 

[TheSHEEEP]

Who am I to stand in the way of your masochism... let's really have some fun then

Finally, you get it!

So, the contractor (ID) apparently wasn't happy with the contractee's (Mick's) work/performance and that has *NOTHING* whatsoever to do with how things transpired?
They should have just STFU and let it slide for... reasons. Hmmm.

I mean... IMO the game's soundtrack speaks for itself, doesn't it? There's a reason the soundtrack and audio design specifically was praised to hell (huehue) and back.
There's a reason why people are bemoaning the lack of a proper standalone OST release so much.

Judging from the following, you mean more on a personal level, maybe Mick was a bit of a bitch to work with? I don't know, maybe?
Still doesn't warrant any of the treatment or lies, though.

A) So what you're arguing here is that he (Mick) somehow didn't know what he was getting into (despite apparently *EVERYONE* knowing the score) and that Marty (representing ID/Bethesda) shouldn't have any sort of complaint or issue from their perspective?

B) Think critically for a moment. Why did he feel the need to put Chad onto preparing a version of the OST 6 months prior to any arrangement being made, presumably on top of his other responsibilities? That to me is a pretty obvious red-flag that the relationship had already broken down to some degree. Why else would they backstop the deliverable at their own expense if things weren't already gone awry?

C) I'm not privy to what brought this about and neither are you, the difference between us is that I'm happy to file this under "creative differences" and not go hard in the paint demonizing a particular side. Remember there are two sides to every story because a lot of the time meaning is a product of perspective.

A) You can have complaints or issues. What you cannot do, though, is publicly lie about things and refuse to provide contracts especially when knowing the person is already working on it - and not even telling them to stop.
Don't forget: Eventually a contract was signed and Mick was contracted to work on the OST.

B) Why? Easy: He's a director with no clue about music, sound engineering and also clearly did not personally like Mick.
Most likely just thought he could get away with letting Chad slap a few sound bites together and call it an OST, probably a lot cheaper than contracting Mick again.
Then when it became obvious even to him Chad wasn't up to the task, he caved in and contracted Mick again - way too late to still be able to turn things around.

C) Having "creative differences" with the guy who knows a ton more about the topic at hand than you do (or else you wouldn't have hired him) and thinking you know better paints yourself in a very bad light.
Also, spreading lies that are so easily proven wrong also does its part on the paint job.
No need for me to demonize anything, Marty managed the paint job pretty well on his own.

We already have two sides, btw.
The public statement by Marty, parts of which have been proven lies (and not just accidental ones) by Mick.
How many more sides do you need?

You think this is going to help Mick career-wise?

Certainly more than the alternative of taking the blame for something he didn't do would've. What image would THAT have painted of him?
This only paints him as an honest, if maybe a bit naive and possibly somewhat diva-ish guy.
I'd certainly want to work with him more than I would want to work with someone publicly lying about people they worked with, and trying to silence them with hush money afterwards...

Do you believe for a second they are going to shitcan a studio director over a minor business spat with a contractor?

People have been let go for so much less than this, including people in high positions.
Wrong opinions can get you fired nowadays.
Mistreatment and spreading lies about people you worked with won't? I mean, sure, maybe you are right.
Which just proves all the more how the company itself (or at least management) is broken beyond belief and needs to burn down before it can get any better.

Who wants to deal with a squeaky wheel?

Anyone who wouldn't hire a person because they told something bad (but provably true) about their ex-employer at some point in the past is someone who has something to hide and wishes to keep it that way.
Not being hired by such a person is a bullet dodged.

 

[Kacho]

You have to appreciate the tremendous opportunity Andrew Hulshult was given after all this drama. His work on TAG 1 & 2 was more than decent but he is capable of so much more. I'm guessing the quick and dirty chug job was due to him accepting Mick's role on such short notice. I can't wait to hear what he delivers with ids next game when he's given more time to flex his creative muscles. It's going to be phenomenal.

 

[Clear]

I think we found the sleazy manager in the room. Issues like not getting paid for work completed and having work stolen go far beyond artistic differences, but you do you and keep pleasuring yourself with how right you are.

I'm just keeping it real. Not on anyone's side in the matter and I'm not the one setting the ground-rules.

Bottom line is that what was once a fruitful partnership is now over, and frankly as I didn't think Marty's open letter was particularly vitriolic - its actually extremely complimentary towards Mick on the whole - the whole kerfuffle seemed avoidable and would have been better handled via back-channels.

Can't see him getting work with any MS studio from here on, which if you're a fan of his music is likely a shame. As for ID/Bethesda, just gonna be business as usual.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I'm just keeping it real. Not on anyone's side in the matter and I'm not the one setting the ground-rules.

Bottom line is that what was once a fruitful partnership is now over, and frankly as I didn't think Marty's open letter was particularly vitriolic - its actually extremely complimentary towards Mick on the whole - the whole kerfuffle seemed avoidable and would have been better handled via back-channels.

Can't see him getting work with any MS studio from here on, which if you're a fan of his music is likely a shame. As for ID/Bethesda, just gonna be business as usual.

I honestly appreciate you providing the managerial perspective, but unfortunately you seem to be willfully blind to exploitation of people “low on the totem pole” It’s not clear to me you actually read Gordon’s account or give it any credence, and you’ve expressed that you worked with Stratton in the past so you can’t really claim impartiality. According to Gordon he was actively trying to handle the conflict via back channels for years and years before finally resorting to this public statement to defend himself. His reputation, which despite your silly claims of Stratton’s public statement being complimentary, has been thoroughly dragged through the mud. His work has been stolen. He has tried every way to resolve the situation privately, and been brick walled by Zenimax’s legal machine. I think most people understand the truth may lie somewhere inbetween the two accounts, but Gordon actually brought evidence for his claims. You may have worked with fussy self-important artists in the past, but we can all agree stealing is wrong, right?

Edited: wrong name lol

 

[TransTrender]

Not sure if this is all 100% accurate, but goddamn.
Marty Stratton is a fucking cunt sociopath and with people like him as the 'Studio Director' then I guess id is dead


Because this is all soooo slimy and now there's big MS money behind Bethesda I doubt Mick will ever get proper compensation, credit, or an apology.

 

[Inviusx]

Mick and Marty are here I see.

 

[marquimvfs]

Bethesda issued a response on their Twitter:


Edit: smells like bullshit to me

 

[TheInfamousKira]

Ooh, workplace tea.

I Side with Mick, but I don't know either of these people from some asshole on the street, which raises an interesting point. Regardless of who is being truthful or not in this case, it's usually the party that went first with the BREAKING NEWS that gets sided with. You know, why would victims lie and all that. But the one thing that trumps timing is the length of the rebuttal. People also tend to believe whichever account is the longest. Surely in history someone has noticed this processing fallacy and has abused the shit out of it, completely lying, but just making up a screenplay of bullshit to sound super detailed.

Humans are fascinating.