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Mick Gordon publishes full statement on Doom Eternal soundtrack
- Thread starter FeastYoEyes
- Start date
- News Drama
TwiztidElf
Member
I read through some of it. I skimmed all of it. I will read it all later.
Have to say though, it reminds me a lot of my workplace...
Have to say though, it reminds me a lot of my workplace...
PhoenixTank
Member
Reading through this, Mick debunks the BS from the reddit post and offers the receipts. They've done him dirty.
The actions outlined really suggest to me that Marty Stratton is a complete sociopath. If you've never had to work under someone like this consider yourself incredibly lucky.
The actions outlined really suggest to me that Marty Stratton is a complete sociopath. If you've never had to work under someone like this consider yourself incredibly lucky.
Grildon Tundy
Member
The man gave the world "BFG Division". I don't care even if he's a huge prick; that track bangs harder than your parents when they made you
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Can someone do a TLDR on this drama?
Brock2621
Member
I read it all and basically Marty was a douche. Mick constantly pestered the Doom team and Marty in particular for info so that he could actually get work done but they never sent it. He would send demos only to be rejected, and then later behind his back the Doom team would use that music without Mick’s knowledge and without paying him for it. He went almost a full year without pay from them and then Marty went behind his back and published the Reddit post and trashed Mick with what seems like a ton of lies. Mick posts tons of receipts proving otherwise.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
Doom Eternal was pure dogshit compared to Doom 2016.
Doom slaying is mindless fun, doom puzzling is minus fun.
So it was not just the game that was shit, it was all the people behind it. Can't say I'm surprised.
Guilhermegrg
Member
Send it to the lawyers and get it solved. Show The receipts
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
Worked with Marty Stratton 20-odd years ago on PS1 Quake2, and I really liked the guy.
Was very competent and helpful, which immediately puts him in the top 2% of producers I ever encountered in the biz!
Honestly, don't know and don't care who's in the right on this topic. But I don't especially rate this dude's music anyway.
Was very competent and helpful, which immediately puts him in the top 2% of producers I ever encountered in the biz!
Honestly, don't know and don't care who's in the right on this topic. But I don't especially rate this dude's music anyway.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
I've read most of it.
Because he was in dialogue with I'd software.
They both agreed on not fling anything public about it, just for Marty to be a dickhead a few hours later and drops his shit online.
After that id and their lawyers reached out and said hey admit it was you who were at fault, and we give you a six digit amount of cash and will agree to never publicly speak about any Bethesda or id software again.
After reaching for an agreement for a very long time he went fuck it and went public about it.
That's the reason it took so long.
The man could do 2 things. Suck it up and get the blame, or do as he does now, openly speak about it.
Both could result in having a hard time having a career afterwards, so I would also have gone public about it.
He even publish pictures from contracts showing Marty is full of shit regarding contracts etc.
MiguelItUp
Member
If it were up to me the OSTs would've been much less Djent-like. But in the end, the 2016 OST was definitely more memorable IMO.
Doom Eternal was pure dogshit compared to Doom 2016.
Doom slaying is mindless fun, doom puzzling is minus fun.
So it was not just the game that was shit, it was all the people behind it. Can't say I'm surprised.
I enjoyed Eternal for what it was, personally. But yeah, the overall vibe of 2016 was so much better IMO. ESPECIALLY the multiplayer. The multiplayer in Eternal was atrocious, lmao.
The_Mike
I cry about SonyGaf from my chair in Redmond, WA
MiguelItUp
Member
Good to know! I appreciate the heads up! It wasn't perfect (I hated the loadouts, lol), but everything else was actually pretty damn good. I originally had hoped that Eternal would do the same multiplayer but better, woo boy was I disappointed, lol.
Sucks that this situation had to pan out the way it did, through all of this.
Apocryphon
Member
Eternal was a mess of a game period. Fun but never reaching the heights of 2016 as an experience.
Tripolygon
Banned
He didn't provide receipts; he wrote a damn book.
Roni
Gold Member
I believe Mick, what he describes is something I've felt myself: managers usually don't know how to do it, but are responsible for delivering it. Some dork fresh out of the workforce and promoted to management, probably pretty high management too, just shit the bed all over the game's development, tried to escape goat Mick to save face and even threw some hush money to try and make it all right under some bullshit contract they themselves don't value.
Bragr
Banned
- id wanted to make an early in-game soundtrack (in-game soundtrack = level music), far in advance of the game's release.
- That means the levels changed as he was delivering music, so they rejected a lot of it and changed preferences based on what sort of state the game was in. Making it hard for Mick Gorden to create songs for the levels.
- This made id angry, and they felt he was late and slow, and hard to work with.
They had some conflicts and harsh words and then id started to actively dislike him and run him over hot coals:
- They announced a Mick Gorden OST without telling him. He first saw it in the media.
- They threatened him that they were gonna come after him if he didn't deliver the OST in time.
- They didn't pay him for 11 months.
- They said they were not gonna use parts of his songs, only to turn around and use them.
- Not paying for half of his work.
- They edited his songs by copy-pasting shit together and called it a "collaborative song" and put another artist (the editor) as a co-creator.
- Bashing him and going after him at every call for being a shit worker.
- They were secretly working on an OST without him. With his music.
- They refused to talk to him, completely.
- He still wanted to make the OST for Doom Eternal.
- He had to contact Zenimax about WTF was going on.
- He managed to get a deal about making the OST through Zenimax.
- He made the OST, but id didn't want it and told him to fuck off (they paid him for that work at least).
- They "mixed" their own OST, compromised of shitty edits that are just Mick Gorden music copy-pasted on top of each other.
- id releases this copy-pasted mess of a soundtrack.
id gets a massive backlash for a terrible OST. And id blames Mick Gorden for it. Marty Straton posts a reddit post about how Mick Gorden is a dick and hard to work with and how he fucked it all up.
- Zenimax lawyers want to make a deal, they want Mick Gorden to take responsibility and say publically that he is to blame. And he can never mention id again.
- Mick Gorden gets death threats and hate from the reddit post Marty Straton made, people message him about how they want to kill him and his family. He refuses to accept whatever deal, because he can't live with all the hate.
- He writes this letter, which features details and documentation about lies and bullshit from Marty Straton and id.
Now everyone id and Marty Straton, and wants Marty Straton gone from the company.
- That means the levels changed as he was delivering music, so they rejected a lot of it and changed preferences based on what sort of state the game was in. Making it hard for Mick Gorden to create songs for the levels.
- This made id angry, and they felt he was late and slow, and hard to work with.
They had some conflicts and harsh words and then id started to actively dislike him and run him over hot coals:
- They announced a Mick Gorden OST without telling him. He first saw it in the media.
- They threatened him that they were gonna come after him if he didn't deliver the OST in time.
- They didn't pay him for 11 months.
- They said they were not gonna use parts of his songs, only to turn around and use them.
- Not paying for half of his work.
- They edited his songs by copy-pasting shit together and called it a "collaborative song" and put another artist (the editor) as a co-creator.
- Bashing him and going after him at every call for being a shit worker.
- They were secretly working on an OST without him. With his music.
- They refused to talk to him, completely.
- He still wanted to make the OST for Doom Eternal.
- He had to contact Zenimax about WTF was going on.
- He managed to get a deal about making the OST through Zenimax.
- He made the OST, but id didn't want it and told him to fuck off (they paid him for that work at least).
- They "mixed" their own OST, compromised of shitty edits that are just Mick Gorden music copy-pasted on top of each other.
- id releases this copy-pasted mess of a soundtrack.
id gets a massive backlash for a terrible OST. And id blames Mick Gorden for it. Marty Straton posts a reddit post about how Mick Gorden is a dick and hard to work with and how he fucked it all up.
- Zenimax lawyers want to make a deal, they want Mick Gorden to take responsibility and say publically that he is to blame. And he can never mention id again.
- Mick Gorden gets death threats and hate from the reddit post Marty Straton made, people message him about how they want to kill him and his family. He refuses to accept whatever deal, because he can't live with all the hate.
- He writes this letter, which features details and documentation about lies and bullshit from Marty Straton and id.
Now everyone id and Marty Straton, and wants Marty Straton gone from the company.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
I am glad a big lot of the users are ignoring Mick's initial statement and are just spewing vitriol towards Marty because that was totally the way Mick wanted it.
For Marty to re-activate a 3 year old dormant Reddit account to make such a wall post is not only bizarre, its also very un-Marty to do. You go from an established producer to someone best suited as Randy Pitchford's cousin. I
I refuse to believe that's totally the case. But i am not going to deny Mick's side either. The man worked with id-Soft in the past and there were no qualms. In the end Gordon was paid in full including bonuses. So why everything went to shitheel creek on Eternal just doesn't add up.
I also understand Mick's frustration with Chad. Not so much on a personal level, but i take it he is looking at that part from an audio engineer viewing point and leaving rather sour that the lead audio head at id Soft seemingly does an Audacity patchjob, degrading the mix significantly.
Mick's tell tales on how grueling the graft is recognizable from earlier stories (Brigador). Far too few people realize how daunting game/audio development can be. The fact that folks have been threatening anyone, including Mick, says more about gamers in general than it does to id, Marty or Mick.
All in all it is a sad story, but i am glad we get a glimpse of how that gamedev life is on the real side of the fence. It isn't as pretty as we tend to think.
Also:
My response is lengthy and detailed to prevent vague statements from turning into rumours and speculation.
This statement is not an excuse for a hate campaign. Acts of hate dished out online won’t result in any positive change. In fact, it only makes things worse.
You are randomly adding in that Mick basically defaults to ''Fuck those guys, they're incompetent''. He doesn't. What you are doing is projecting and changing the tune of his message.
For Marty to re-activate a 3 year old dormant Reddit account to make such a wall post is not only bizarre, its also very un-Marty to do. You go from an established producer to someone best suited as Randy Pitchford's cousin. I
I refuse to believe that's totally the case. But i am not going to deny Mick's side either. The man worked with id-Soft in the past and there were no qualms. In the end Gordon was paid in full including bonuses. So why everything went to shitheel creek on Eternal just doesn't add up.
I also understand Mick's frustration with Chad. Not so much on a personal level, but i take it he is looking at that part from an audio engineer viewing point and leaving rather sour that the lead audio head at id Soft seemingly does an Audacity patchjob, degrading the mix significantly.
Mick's tell tales on how grueling the graft is recognizable from earlier stories (Brigador). Far too few people realize how daunting game/audio development can be. The fact that folks have been threatening anyone, including Mick, says more about gamers in general than it does to id, Marty or Mick.
All in all it is a sad story, but i am glad we get a glimpse of how that gamedev life is on the real side of the fence. It isn't as pretty as we tend to think.
If you care enough to know the gist, why care too little to read the thing? It is a good and detailed read, probably proof-read by a lawyer before hand.
Also:
My response is lengthy and detailed to prevent vague statements from turning into rumours and speculation.
This is fearmongering, because that's literally not what Gordon initially states:
This statement is not an excuse for a hate campaign. Acts of hate dished out online won’t result in any positive change. In fact, it only makes things worse.
You are randomly adding in that Mick basically defaults to ''Fuck those guys, they're incompetent''. He doesn't. What you are doing is projecting and changing the tune of his message.
Most likely because Mick tried to solve this like adults + respect for Marty. As is mentioned in the read, which you would know if you read it.
The real problem is people like you making giant ass assumptions out of things simply because they can't be bothered to read. I understand our generation is fucked when it comes to reading and we doze off after 100 characters but breh come on now.
If you are going to respond to a big name in the industry, you better ought to be able to articulate your counter points.
lostinblue
Banned
WTF. I thought that Mick Gordon thing was weird when it happened, because the accusations were too severe to pull on a collaborator, he didn't respond to the post immediately, and the fact Doom Eternal didn't have those problems ingame.
Also the fact they enlisted the help of someone else and that it sucked apart from a few tracks which excluded him from doing a bad job, if he did his work well on some tracks. Why cut shit that bad from the ingame stuff?
This Marty character is screwed, I'd hate to work under him. Mick Gordon you have my support.
I didn't enjoy Doom Eternal as much as Doom 2016, but I was looking forward for what they did next. Now if this guy is director on the next one and despite the fact that the game is developed by many people who are not at fault, I have to say I lost my interest in the series if this is how they treat the Doom 2016 composer.
And the cunt seems super self-centered of what people think of him so he'll be looking over his shoulder and overthinking everything for a while now.
Personally, I hope he is held accountable for almost destroying a coworker life, and I honestly doubt that's the only time he overstepped his boundaries with other people. Chef's kiss would be more people speaking out about it. On that reddit subforum, preferably.
I think he tried very hard to not come out as frustrated or furious that this happens, despite it being implicit.
But you have to agree he does have a point that: 1. he actually tried to do things on time, proactively but was refused 2. he was disrespected, cut off (both creatively, was gaslight and financially) and then harassed 3. he was attacked on a personal level despite delivering what he agreed to and despite the sad state of things he found after he did.
You're free to dislike him, think this is personal to him (it's his career, of course it is), but he does have a point. Nobody deserves that finger pointing reddit post, and if there were talks of a new OST afterwards it's only normal he wanted it redacted... and he did bring in the receipts for everything.
And he had nothing to gain, in regards to his career, by staying silent. He should have spoken sooner though, but understandably he was trying to resolve this a different way, by having at least having the post removed.
Also the fact they enlisted the help of someone else and that it sucked apart from a few tracks which excluded him from doing a bad job, if he did his work well on some tracks. Why cut shit that bad from the ingame stuff?
This Marty character is screwed, I'd hate to work under him. Mick Gordon you have my support.
I didn't enjoy Doom Eternal as much as Doom 2016, but I was looking forward for what they did next. Now if this guy is director on the next one and despite the fact that the game is developed by many people who are not at fault, I have to say I lost my interest in the series if this is how they treat the Doom 2016 composer.
I doubt he'll reply doubling down on it, but I also doubt he'll delete it.
And the cunt seems super self-centered of what people think of him so he'll be looking over his shoulder and overthinking everything for a while now.
Personally, I hope he is held accountable for almost destroying a coworker life, and I honestly doubt that's the only time he overstepped his boundaries with other people. Chef's kiss would be more people speaking out about it. On that reddit subforum, preferably.
You're entitled to your different view of things, but wow.
I think he tried very hard to not come out as frustrated or furious that this happens, despite it being implicit.
But you have to agree he does have a point that: 1. he actually tried to do things on time, proactively but was refused 2. he was disrespected, cut off (both creatively, was gaslight and financially) and then harassed 3. he was attacked on a personal level despite delivering what he agreed to and despite the sad state of things he found after he did.
You're free to dislike him, think this is personal to him (it's his career, of course it is), but he does have a point. Nobody deserves that finger pointing reddit post, and if there were talks of a new OST afterwards it's only normal he wanted it redacted... and he did bring in the receipts for everything.
He probably doesn't have to win, sometimes people just need to tell their side of the story.
And he had nothing to gain, in regards to his career, by staying silent. He should have spoken sooner though, but understandably he was trying to resolve this a different way, by having at least having the post removed.
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FeldMonster
Member
Even if you don't like his work on Doom, go listen to the Killer Instinct (2013) soundtrack. The man has talent.
Kacho
Member
To be clear, I don’t have a dog in this fight. I’m just going with my gut based on all the available information that’s out there.
And that Reddit post only happened after Mick was out there shoveling shit on Twitter. He brought it upon himself and didn’t own up to anything in his blog post which is a huge red flag IMO.
I doubt id discusses this in public again. It’s a never-ending PR nightmare that their lawyers will deal with behind the scenes. Whether Mick restores his reputation is the big question. Will big pubs take a risk and work with Mick after this debacle?
OGM_Madness
Member
Except, he wasn’t, because the contract was for about 2+ hours of music and in the end they used 5 hours of music so they still owe him for the other half of the work.
Man, after the shit show with Hellena Taylor, I think Mick’s approach of trying to solve things behind the scenes and giving it time to settle down works best. I cannot blame the guy for waiting 2 years before posting. We did had DLC and even COVID in that time.
I hope he gets a proper lawyer and gets properly compensated.
jigglet
Banned
Both sides are probably right to a degree.
They are just opposite ends of the spectrum.
Mick is protecting his art. He wants his music to be integral and not just cut and paste.
The other guy wants to ship a game on time and budget. He's out to feed his family.
Two competing philosophies are always going to result in friction.
But I will tend to side with the artists most of the time.
They are just opposite ends of the spectrum.
Mick is protecting his art. He wants his music to be integral and not just cut and paste.
The other guy wants to ship a game on time and budget. He's out to feed his family.
Two competing philosophies are always going to result in friction.
But I will tend to side with the artists most of the time.
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ipukespiders
Member
Goosebumps every time.
Jinzo Prime
Member
Marty and Mick's stories are too divergent to both be right. Time to get lawyers involved and find out who is lying through their teeth.
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Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
A living example of don't argue with "X", they'll bring you down to their level and beat you with experience. Poor Mick. Fuck Marty. PoS.
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Dr. Samuel Hayden
Member
After reading all of it, and assuming it's all true, Marty Stratton is a two-faced piece of shit who should immediately be thrown out of the studio. But knowing this fucking industry he'll probably be promoted.
killatopak
Member
Haven’t read anything or know anything prior to this thread.
I did see people mention receipts/proof though. Those are automatically a lot more believable than a person without one.
I did see people mention receipts/proof though. Those are automatically a lot more believable than a person without one.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Except he was:
I handed over my tracks and wished them as well as I politely could. They approved my tracks and confirmed I had met my contractual obligations. The total contract amount, including the on-time bonus payment, was later paid-out in full without dispute.
4. They paid me for the OST without dispute
Nobody argued against payment: the most substantial proof that Marty’s Reddit post is utter bullshit is the fact that they paid me afterwards for fulfilling the contract.- id Software approved my OST contribution after I did everything asked of me.
- Marty was part of the panel that approved it.
He was not compensated for the rest because according to Mick that belongs in a separate contract.
ShadowNate
Member
That's not completely right. Yes, his contracts were paid in full, but he found out that, both in-game and in the OST, they had used work of his that was supposedly discarded/rejected or was created only for draft/demo purposes.
He claims not to have been compensated for these.
The following is for the OST:
He claims not to have been compensated for these.
The following is for the OST:
Starbuck2907
Member
I feel the exact opposite. However you want to look at it, id fucked him over well before he said anything. Then they kept on fucking him by using music they didn’t pay for. I don’t know why he doesn’t sue. I sure would.
Edit: lawsuits can be stressful, especially to people who have never been in one. He probably wanted to avoid that and just keep making music.
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Thebonehead
Banned
Thebonehead
Banned
Agreed. An ultra shitty practice that is sadly par for the course in a lot of Industries.
e.g. Formula 1 outfits used to keep the trophies the drivers won. A few drivers have it stipulated in their contracts now that they keep them.
Mahnmut
Member
Difficult to see who's right here but as a person working with big companies on a daily basis I recognize some behaviours associated with people working in big corporations. That's often what happens when artists have to deal with this type of environment. The execs have no mercy, and they'll do everything, including the shittiest moves, to avoid being blamed by higher management. I've witnessed this on so many occasions: people being thrown under the bus because a manager fucked up, reputations being ruined because someone didn't want to take the (deserved) blame, manipulation, miscommunication... It's all there.
It would take years and lots of money and energy, I guess he wants to leave this behind him, focus on the future and putting back his carreer on track. Usually these huge companies have legions of top of the line lawyers.
Azurro
Banned
Have you read the response? It seems it was incompetent management from Bethesda and this Marty Stratton guy who actually caused the issue in the first place.
Bethesda announced an OST without even having a contract in place for it and demanded finalised music for levels that didn't exist. That's insane mismanagement.
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OGM_Madness
Member
No.
He was paid for the OST he made, which was 10-12 songs (it was 12 songs but it seems the last two songs had a problem but they took it anyways because they didn’t want to extend a few more hours) as far as I understand, this OST was never released. He was paid for that job.
However, the released OST that contains a ton of poor edited music contains a lot of work that he wasn’t paid for. Also, the game contains some of this music he wasn’t paid for too.
It’s like asking you to build me a house, then you do it. I say I don’t like it, build me another one, I’ll destroy the first one. Then you build me another house to comply with my request. Then I have two houses for the price of one, because I never destroyed the first one and I’ve been renting it since.
We don’t see the contract, but it seems that Mick had to do as many hours of work as needed, as long as id only used about 2 hours of that music. The rest is id’s but it had to be vaulted, never to see the light of day. Using it in an ad or in-game or in a OST means they didn’t reject those tracks because that’s stipulates usage, meaning they lied to him saying they rejected them, but they actually liked it enough to use.
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The Janitor
Member
Seems to me like Marty wanted Mick gone and he was set up to fail. So he found a way to make it look like Mick was the problem.
FeldMonster
Member
So that we can boycott it.
Thebonehead
Banned
SirKicksalot
Member
Remember how id wanted an electronic soundtrack for 2016 but Gordon pushed for more guitars? And it was such a hit soundtrack that he became the public face of Doom, even more than Stratton and Hugo Martin.
Stratton and the other producers probably felt he was a diva who went against their plan and the resentment spilled over into Eternal.
As for Chad's work, he was probably crunching 25 hours a day, went "fuck this shit" when they gave him the OST job on top of that and bet the higher ups won't notice anything wrong with the rush job.
Stratton and the other producers probably felt he was a diva who went against their plan and the resentment spilled over into Eternal.
As for Chad's work, he was probably crunching 25 hours a day, went "fuck this shit" when they gave him the OST job on top of that and bet the higher ups won't notice anything wrong with the rush job.
Brigandier
Member
After reading that which was a mission... Mick has my vote.
Love his work too.
Love his work too.
Thebonehead
Banned
Not normally a massive fan of the metal Genre ( I Like Iron Maiden, but who doesn't? ), But it suits this game so well giving the appropriate amount of anxiety with a play through.
Couldn't think that a edm track would suit it at all.
In fact all this talk of doom has got me thirsty for some mindless carnage and made me notice 2016 isn't on GamePass
Shut0wen
Member
Bethesda had bo idea about this until mick mentioned it, i guess its martys fault, doubt most people in ID knew except management
Shut0wen
Member
He obviously took the hush money, spent it and is now telling us the trurh
hyperbertha
Member
Gotta love the average joe corporate management that refuses to pay half your work and then pays you 6 figures to stay silent (or else) to feed the family. I guess tony soprano was a family feeder too eh?
CircleOfFire
Member
I can remember when I was playing Eternal that something felt a bit off in general about the game. Now seeing all this makes me wonder how much of a nightmare the development of it in general was. id Software really did Mick Gordon dirty with how he was treated, I've heard some shitty contractor stories, but this is easily the worst one by far.