Yes, but there is a reason Asia has bounced back from colonialism and Africa hasn't. Geography matters, and Africa's geography absolutely sucks for developing a modern economy.
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Macron: Africa's issues are "much more sophisticated than a simple money transfer"
- Thread starter TheWasTheJoke
- Start date
Yes, but there is a reason Asia has bounced back from colonialism and Africa hasn't. Geography matters, and Africa's geography absolutely sucks for developing a modern economy.
cpp_is_king
Member
Maybe I'm missing something (can you link the article, not just the picture?) but doesn't that image show that over 60% of the entire continent is in the lowest percentile? On the other hand, Canada is also in the lowest percentile, so I suppose there's more to it than just the land. Thanks for the link regardless
Is it opposite day today or something? Africa has no resources now?
Let's all hope I don't have to correct another intellectual blindspot this massive, nevermind how it is said.
His speech was reasonable, he didn't speak historically or implied it was a bad thing to have 7 or 8 kids. He just said it was harder to make changes and that you could spend billions on the country and it wouldn't solve the problem.
In no way he implied it was the cause of anything...
He also just said there was border and democratic transition that were troublesome, he didn't spoke about colonisation once, he could very well think it's the cause of everything.
In no way he implied it was the cause of anything...
He also just said there was border and democratic transition that were troublesome, he didn't spoke about colonisation once, he could very well think it's the cause of everything.
Uh, not entirely sure it's fair to use the Four Asian Tigers as representative of Asia and compare them to the entirety of Africa
30yearsofhurt
Member
Birth control in many of these countries is shunned, and it's contributing to the worst conditions on the planet.
The decade-lasting male contraception via injection that costs less than the syringe can't come soon enough.
I think you need to put down your copy of the Population Bomb and pick up some real data on population growth, poverty and economic development.
TheWasTheJoke
Member
I linked an article that gives a different view, I don't agree with it but I'll edit I guess
I'm from Hong Kong, and from what I've learned and experienced, I quite like how Hong Kong turned out, at least until the handover.
Of course nothing's fair when you compare a subset to an entirety, but the point is that nations like Mali or Congo or Sudan are not likely to ever become powerful economies given their geography. South Africa is a different case, there is potential there, as one of the few African nations with a decent amount of navigable rivers, arable land and natural ports.
He fucked up when he used the term " civilizational " but all he did was repeat what plenty of observers, intellectuals (african or not) have been saying for a long time. The failed states in sub-saharan africa are a legacy of colonialism so my country (France) bears a heavy responsibility in what's happening right now in Africa. That doesn't mean that we should just leave it at that and not be objective when talking about the problems Africa faces. How is Macron not in a perfect stop to talk about these subjects when France is still very active in Africa and has good relationships with plenty of African countries? Do you realize that it's our Army right now that's protecting countries like Mali, Burkina Faso, Tchad etc... from jihadists? Check Operation Barkhane in Wikipedia.
Anyway the facts are the facts. If you look at all the data, what he's saying sounds logical.
Anyway the facts are the facts. If you look at all the data, what he's saying sounds logical.
Dude Africa did really well for itself while Europe was busy crapping the bed with the black death Africa was literally throwing gold into the streets due to how amazing their spice trade was.
If the continent wasn't raped by everyone north it would have just been chill and grown at a more natural pace.
Taking the word "civilizational" out of context does indeed sound bad, but he followed up with "Failed states, complex democratic transitions and extremely difficult demographic transitions" which are indeed important civilizational issues no?. The link in the OP now disgusts me more than whatever Macron is trying to say.
Grr... I posted the wrong image:
http://www.agter.org/bdf/en/corpus_chemin/fiche-chemin-231.html
That's the unused arable land that Africa has compared to the world. It's only beaten by a few places: The US, Russia, Canada, Brazil, etc. And again, even the image I did post was a bit misleading. Africa has 25% of all arable land, which was the point I was trying to make.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Really? No resources, so why didn't European governnents just stay put then?
He should have used the word "structural." But if that is his biggest sin...
PeskyToaster
Member
Full quote is fine and he's correct if I'm understanding it right. The use of the word civilizational could just be a translation thing. It's not a real term so the meaning is an approximation. He's just saying you can't use what worked to rebuild Europe because Africa is not Europe. And you also can't just dump money and walk away. You need to work with the leaders and organizations. I don't see what the issue is.
DiscoJer
Member
Birth control in many of these countries is shunned, and it's contributing to the worst conditions on the planet.
The decade-lasting male contraception via injection that costs less than the syringe can't come soon enough.
I think what some people miss is that in underdeveloped economies, families are more important, and having more productive family members in the family household can be beneficial. Because while costs of things like food increase, things like housing are shared. And if they are on a farm, having more children to help means they can grow more food. Or just working more jobs.
Rather than trying to artificially reduce the population growth, which would have an adverse effect, economic development is needed which would make larger families less necessary.
And I think that is what Africa's problem is - people (businesses and governments) are less willing to invest there than in other regions.
gutter_trash
Banned
over-population is not a good thing though.
Birth rates are high in developing countries because of their comparative lack of economic development, not the other way around. When your retirement plan is to have your kids look after you in your old age, and mortality rates are so high, you kind of need to have lots of kids just to keep up economically.
Birth control in many of these countries is shunned, and it's contributing to the worst conditions on the planet.
The decade-lasting male contraception via injection that costs less than the syringe can't come soon enough.
Conversely, birth rates in developed countries are so low because the marginal cost of having another child is so high.
Wow. it would have been understandable if the OP if he/she was honestly fooled by the horribly clickbait soundbyte that managed to present a completely different and racist message and not his actual words, but apparently not.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The full quote is tone deaf but not deplorable (also I don't know how much of this is translation from presumably French, or was this given in English?)
The broad idea that we a.) still owe Africa in a very material sense and b.) should stop chucking money at corrupt African governments is spot on
The broad idea that we a.) still owe Africa in a very material sense and b.) should stop chucking money at corrupt African governments is spot on
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Africa is the last continent to be asked to reduce its population. A land mass second only to asia, and has a smaller population than China or India. Get the fuck out of here.
I find this a sinister thought. It's white people in power basically saying " let's get rid of africans because that land needs to be used".
This is the second form of colonialism.
I find this a sinister thought. It's white people in power basically saying " let's get rid of africans because that land needs to be used".
This is the second form of colonialism.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Yup its one of the strongest correlations we've seen. Living conditions go up = birth rates go down
kinoki
Illness is the doctor to whom we pay most heed; to kindness, to knowledge, we make promise only; pain we obey.
In context: perfectly reasonable. Heavily edited: pretty awful. Guess that's why you take out the context if you want something to look awful. For instance, a colleague of mine once said "Hitler was really talented." Meaning of course his paintings and not other more sinister aspects of his character.
It's not even a gaffe. He said this Saturday at his G20 press conference, there was no controversy. It took someone splicing together two wildly out of context statements in a highly deceptive video with an outrageous caption for it to go viral to a non-French speaking audience on Monday.
Most of the people reacting on twitter don't even know that his statement was not part of a "speech" but a response to a question asking why there's no $150 billion Marshall plan for Africa. Macron was explaining that there's a fundamental difference between Europe's massive post-war reconstruction effort and the kind of complex structural reforms that are necessary for sustainable growth in many parts of Africa. The checkered history of foreign aid to Africa is a testament to this. All he's doing is giving a basic summary of modern development economics.
A better example of a gaffe was when Macron described France's colonization of Algeria as a crime against humanity - that got him into some hot water with people on the right during the election campaign. It's quite funny when looked at next to this attempt to try and smear Macron as a racist neo-imperialist.
Ether_Snake
å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®å®
His speakership was great, OP jumped the gun. It's true that throwing money at the problem isn't going to work and that a typical Marshall plan makes no sense.
The majority of population in the future will be found in Africa (yes, more than in China or India).'
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projections_of_population_growth
And nobody is going to force abortions on African nations or anything, that doesn't mean there can't be family planning that goes on there. That and female education will reduce population growth quite a bit.
Strategies to reduce population growth in Africa by different means will be the difference between a peak population of 10 billion (current projected) and say 15 billion, which will go a long way in helping combat stuff like climate change.
North-african countries (Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia) have a birthrate between 2 and 2.5 and they are developing countries. Moreoever they are muslim countries with a pretty religious population. How come these countries have such a relatively low birthrate compared to the subsahran african countries?
Bangladesh has a birthrate of 2.18. It's a very poor country with a deeply religious population. You know how they achieved that? They gave poor women free access to the pill. It's that simple.
The economy isn't the only reason why people have so many kids. Access to contraception and sex ed play play the most important part.Just give women complete control over their bodies and you'll see the birthrates drop.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
Macron: "My thoughts are too complex for those with short attention spans and reactionary behavior"
OP: Hold my beer
OP: Hold my beer
choodi
Banned
Precesly what I got from reading the article. African leaders and the banks in Switzerland should be held responsible for what they do on their continent.
Perfect.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
This OP is embarrassing, going on a huge tangent without providing any actual information.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
This would only make sense if OP posted something even more complex that contained something that might set off a reactionary person
-_-
Can you further elaborate on your thoughts, beliefs, and reflections upon reading the whole quote?
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
It works perfectly fine in an "Oh yeah? I'll show HIM who's reactionary" way.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The hold my beer thing is about one-upping someone.
If you're going to insult the OP's intelligence at least do it properly
Why do you think China imposed the one child policy on its own population for 35+ years, just out of pure love for brutal autoritarianism? There has been forced sterilization campaigns in India, India! Led by family members of Gandhi no less, but they must have been brainwashed by the IMF.
educate yourself:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/padr.12009/full
edit: another link https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4267474/
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I see you're just looking for stupid arguments, good luck elsewhere.
andrerobot
Member
You had one job OP.
ONE JOB.
ONE JOB.
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
"I got caught being blatantly dishonest. I'll go back and edit it to try and save face I GUESS"
No problems! I do it in the hopes that people can explain stuff I'm less knowledgeable in to me (which is a whole bunch of stuff)
: )
30yearsofhurt
Member
Show me one concrete example of this please.
What Africa has issues with is corruption, accountability, war, terrorism and AIDS.
Population, resources and arable land are not issues without these.
cpp_is_king
Member
Grr... I posted the wrong image:
http://www.agter.org/bdf/en/corpus_chemin/fiche-chemin-231.html
That's the unused arable land that Africa has compared to the world. It's only beaten by a few places: The US, Russia, Canada, Brazil, etc. And again, even the image I did post was a bit misleading. Africa has 25% of all arable land, which was the point I was trying to make.
That's much more than I would have expected. Thanks for sharing!