Support NeoGAF

[GHG]

Can you separate personal preferences with strategy?

I'm selfish. Their strategy should align with my personal preferences.

It has done for decades, I see no reason why that should change. I will no longer be a customer moment it does change.

So make 8hr games instead of 12hr games…..



We haven’t gotten a Sony multiplayer game since the TLOU remaster…

Yea lets keep releasing sequels and remakes to 5 yr old games over and over again…. Lets just please one fanbase….

Why am I paying for PS+ if they aren’t making multiplayer games?

I don't understand. If they aren't making the type of games you want to play then why are you subscribed to PS+ and why are you not gaming elsewhere? Nobody is forcing you to pay for PS+.

 

[Guilty_AI]

I think all your polls from now on should have the choice "shut up fish-man"

 

[Bartski]

Those do look like multiplayer modes for existing single player titles in the pipeline, rather than "3 mulriplayer games" don't you think?
As opposed to the totally-not-cancelled-just-missing-from-the-schedule-till-2030 "the great web" Spiderman meets GTA Online standalone.

Unless it's now an idea to be worked into some sort of MP platform that will be expanded with all upcoming Marvel games (MP1.0, 2.0, 3.0 etc).
Could be.

That would explain why they need Wolverine and Spiderman be in a shared universe. PEGI13 softie Logan incoming.

 

[crackajack]

I just hope they aim not too high, expecting impossible numbers and or pull the plug timely on the projects that are not shaping up and fuse some work.
But seems anyway to be the goal, to set up a larger MP game based on two probably smaller MP games.

 

[Hugare]

I'm sure a lot of AAA-developers are experimenting with multiplayer, and I'm sure we'll never see 95% of those experiments.

This

Naughty Dog spent years developing TLOU Online, and we expect Insomniac to make 3 big GAAS? Yeah, right

Not only that, but the ND situation probably raised a huge red flag inside Sony, and most GAAS projects will bite the dust.

I only expect some "minor" studios like Bend and etc. launching some actual GAAS games in the future from Sony (Bungie being an exception)

 

[MAX PAYMENT]

It made me realize Marvel is in control of insomniac.

 

[Daymos]

Disney-Sony partnership? In the long run what Sony is doing just isn't going to work and they apparently know that.

Of course "in the long run" I'm gonna be dead so I don't really care what they do personally. I've got enough games already and I'm quite content with that, it's nice not to care about the future too much.

 

[chromatic9]

They need to get a handle on these budgets for single player, perhaps try to build up teams in other locations that aren't so costly to live in as well as looking at other things that can drive up the cost quickly. I'm not one to cape for big corps but there has to be some profit. GAAS is also very risky, I feel there can only be a few of them and it can change suddenly and luck and timing can be huge factors. One could have huge success and also produce multiple very good GAAS games that simply don't draw in people as they've gravitated to another game that takes up a huge audience for a number of years.

Sony and others will have to cater towards the new generations if that's how they want to play games but smaller studios and AI can pull the rug from under them. A high quality base game can be easily produced now, if they have the right style or mechanic or hook there's not a lot a big studio or corp can do except buy them up and hope it lasts a long time.

 

[SenkiDala]

If they don't sell enough of those AAA to make them profitable they have 2 choices : lower the costs of production or marketing, make games that are a little less impressive, OR, they can decide to ripoff consumers with shitty GaaS games or too expensive services or cut their games in 3 parts to sell them 3 times. They made their choice, it's to ripoff their fans, it's ok.

 

[Killjoy-NL]

This is old news and common sense.
Anyone who follows gaming news already knows this.

It has even been discussed to death already.

 

[Schmendrick]

Can`t say I care either way. I´ll just play what I want to play and ignore everything else. If player A or B has success or fails with strategy X or Y ...what does it matter to me as a consumer?

 

[Beer Baelly]

Drop the big ass budgets. Shit is killing the industry

 

[Clear]

1. Ideas get pitched constantly, but not everything gets made.
2. I see a time-line with a major SP release every 2 years, that's very aggressive for any major studio.
3. The Marvel-centric nature of these slides suggests to me that they were likely intended for presentation to Marvel
4. Even if not, its standard industry practice for a studio to "own" a franchise, or family of related franchises. Because experience with a certain genre, or in this instance a certain creative partner, is important for risk-mitigation.

 

[S0ULZB0URNE]

No why would it?

 

[Zuzu]

Personally I’d prefer that instead of going all in on GaaS they instead try the strategy of making more smaller budget games like Miles Morales. In one of the threads that was posted Insomniac showed that 3 smaller budget games can make even more money than one AAA game. I’d like them to do this more if they want to reduce AAA spending and make money more safely.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

This

Naughty Dog spent years developing TLOU Online, and we expect Insomniac to make 3 big GAAS? Yeah, right

Not only that, but the ND situation probably raised a huge red flag inside Sony, and most GAAS projects will bite the dust.

I only expect some "minor" studios like Bend and etc. launching some actual GAAS games in the future from Sony (Bungie being an exception)

You don't think needing to sell 7.2 million full priced copies of Spiderman 2 to break even is a huge red flag?

Spiderman 3, The Last of Us 3, God of War 9 are all going to cost significantly more than Spiderman 2 to make.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Gaas push makes sense if it’s adding not subtracting. Build/buy gaas studios, use tech from your WWS to help those studios, but don’t try and turn your SP studios into gaas.

This is very simple. PlayStation is an ecosystem where Sony gets a cut from third party MTX and game sales, they have three tiers os subs and you need to pay one of those to play online non F2P, and for cloud saves.

Messing up their SP studios pipelines with gaas bs, or cutting back to increase profits in the short term, is idiotic and will bite them in the ass.

 

[Guilty_AI]

You don't think needing to sell 7.2 million full priced copies of Spiderman 2 to break even is a huge red flag?

Spiderman 3, The Last of Us 3, God of War 9 are all going to cost significantly more than Spiderman 2 to make.

The answer isn't GAAS. Its lower budgets, smaller teams and smaller dev cycles. That was even the conclusion Insomniac themselves got at.

GAAS is also a huge risk to take, and a constant investment. They could spend hundreds of millions on those 3 games and see no return as they fail to break into mainstream.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

The answer isn't GAAS. Its lower budgets, smaller teams and smaller dev cycles. That was even the conclusion Insomniac themselves got at.

GAAS is also a huge risk to take, and a constant investment. They could spend hundreds of millions on those 3 games and see no return as they fail to break into mainstream.

Everyone in the industry has already done this math.

No one is doing it because it doesn't work.

They're going GAAS because GAAS is the safer, more profitable bet.

Miles Morales was a smart decision by Insomniac but it only worked because of the IP and because it grew from the crazy expensive 2018 Spiderman. Think of the cost of Spiderman 3 + the Spiderman 3 spin off game and compare it to 2018s pair.

I always told you guys the single player market was shrinking. No one believed me. This Insomniac leak has been instrumental in illustrating my point.

 

[Hugare]

You don't think needing to sell 7.2 million full priced copies of Spiderman 2 to break even is a huge red flag?

Spiderman 3, The Last of Us 3, God of War 9 are all going to cost significantly more than Spiderman 2 to make.

It is, so they should adjust budget and scope

But trying to turn a developer that is known for its singleplayer games for decades into a GAAS factory is not the answer. Evidently.

 

[SteadyEvo]

they can do whatever they want. If it’s GaaS I won’t be buying.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Everyone in the industry has already done this math.

Yes they did

No one is doing it because it doesn't work.

Some companies already are. The greatest success stories for MS were with AA or small games, same for Square Enix. Larian made Bg3 with 1/3rd the budget of Spider Man games and was a resounding success.

They're going GAAS because GAAS is the safer, more profitable bet.

Except GAAS isn't safer. Not anymore. In case you didn't notice, GAAS games are crashing across the board, very few still standing strong. Compare the amount of remaining success stories with the sea of dead failures, its a huge investment with almost no guarantee it'll generate returns. Add to that governments around the world like China closing in on the most common and predatory practices and you'll see just how "safe" it is to put all your chips on a live service title.

As you yourself would say it, get on with the times. The current live service trend is on its last legs and better alternatives are on course.

 

[Del_X]

No, but because I already knew why. I think they put too much into GaaS at the expense of SP games and they will suffer in the near term. Let Bungie and one other studio work on two slam dunks instead of every damn studio and doing a shotgun approach. Another problem is they're treating SP Marvel games as a loss-leader (to a degree). The licensing is just so ridiculous. That same investment into a new Tier 1 franchise that could sell similarly would bring in much more revenue. Jim Ryan had all these resources and used them suboptimally for the past few years.

 

[hyperbertha]

Wow, I didn't expect these poll results. The tide is definitely turning here. NEOGAF has the ability to learn. Awesome to see. I love you guys.

75 to 25 ratio. Wtf are you talking about? Keep coping.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It is, so they should adjust budget and scope

But trying to turn a developer that is known for its singleplayer games for decades into a GAAS factory is not the answer. Evidently.

This is a borderline silly response because it's OBVIOUSLY the first idea literally everyone has to increase profits.

"Hey, what if we spent less money instead of more money on the next game?"

GAAS is just the electric car of the industry. First it was Tesla and now it's Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen etc...

 

[StealthGoblin]

The leak doesnt explain a thing, it doesnt need to, anyone with a brain already knows the motivation behind every decision of every for profit company.

If anything the leak proves just how easily sustainable, safe and profitable single player games are compared to 99% MP ones, because the successful MP ones are anomalies, it also shines light on the 70$ price hike being completely unnecessary since games make so much money already.

That's the polar opposite take. Those levels of investment aren't sustainable.

 

[StealthGoblin]

No, but because I already knew why. I think they put too much into GaaS at the expense of SP games and they will suffer in the near term. Let Bungie and one other studio work on two slam dunks instead of every damn studio and doing a shotgun approach. Another problem is they're treating SP Marvel games as a loss-leader (to a degree). The licensing is just so ridiculous. That same investment into a new Tier 1 franchise that could sell similarly would bring in much more revenue. Jim Ryan had all these resources and used them suboptimally for the past few years.

There aren't IPs that shift as much hardware as Spiderman does. Remember, every PlayStation sold because of Spiderman is an opportunity to grow the walled garden.

It's also why Sony tactically go after a big game in each genre for marketing or exclusivity.

Spiderman's value is beyond its own project ROI. It's an ecosystem growing series that has huge cache outside of gaming.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This is a borderline silly response because it's OBVIOUSLY the first idea literally everyone has to increase profits.

"Hey, what if we spent less money instead of more money on the next game?"

GAAS is just the electric car of the industry. First it was Tesla and now it's Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen etc...

Interesting comparison, seeing as consumers are losing interest in electric cars and production is expected to stall

 

[mayham2199]

Another problem is they're treating SP Marvel games as a loss-leader (to a degree). The licensing is just so ridiculous. That same investment into a new Tier 1 franchise that could sell similarly would bring in much more revenue. Jim Ryan had all these resources and used them suboptimally for the past few years.

Personally I think Marvel is just to big for Sony right now to let them go. If they can pull off a successful Venmon, Wolverine, and X-men game that's going to be huge for Sony and all of it being exclusive. With that said they shouldn't do this with any other studio. I do think the licensing is crazy but I also think it's helping Sony out a lot in pushing hardware.

 

[mckmas8808]

Personally, I left the door open that there was a small (extremely small) chance that PlayStation might defund its Live Service efforts after the Deviation + Naughty Dog cancellations. Not anymore.

I wouldn't say "extremely small" chance either. I guess it depends on what you define as "defund it's Live Service effort" means.

 

[mckmas8808]

Interesting comparison, seeing as consumers are losing interest in electric cars and production is expected to stall

This is a HORRIBLE comparison. EVs are literally going up all in market share all over the world. Why can't people understand or see when it's the oil\gas\Big 3 companies that are trying to kill or stall the change over to electric vehicles. GM literally killed the electric car over 25 years ago and some are trying to do their best to do that again.

It's not going to work. EVs are literally the future of automobiles. Some people will have to learn to deal with that. Demand has soften due to bad products from the big 3, too small of a charging network infrastructure, and raising interest rates.

 

[Sybrix]

This live service strategy ain't going anywhere.

It makes companies billions of dollars.

If an initial strategy fails, they will adapt and push another one.

 

[Hugare]

This is a borderline silly response because it's OBVIOUSLY the first idea literally everyone has to increase profits.

"Hey, what if we spent less money instead of more money on the next game?"

GAAS is just the electric car of the industry. First it was Tesla and now it's Ford, Toyota, and Volkswagen etc...

"Hey, what if we spent less money instead of more money on the next game?"

Now THIS is a silly idea and not what I meant at all. What I meant is that you dont have to make a game bigger in scope than what we already have in order to keep being successful.

You also dont make one of the best restaurants in the world specialized in barbecues to only serve salads.

Make a freaking new restaurant with some low budget since it's not a sure success. Dont risk ruining one of your must successful investments. Its stupid.

And its exactly what they were doing with Naughty Dog. They even said so in their statement.

 

[Shut0wen]

Ive said on numerous posts triple A games dont have to be over 200 million to produce, fact that spiderman is a 200 billion game is just sad when compared to others, feels like a well made ps2 game

 

[Monkfish877]

Hell no. AAA first party games are what made Playstation what it is today Forcing your studios that are known for cinematic games into making live service games is such a dumb idea, it's a typical braindead suit move. Create studios specifically for GAAS if you want your finger in that pie as well.

 

[10101]

I mean Sony as a company overall are still making lots of profit. Even if Insomniac makes a small profit, their games drive new users to the platform so the licensing etc is probably worthwhile. Sony seems in a pretty good place financially, compared to 10 or so years ago when they were selling buildings.

Personally, I couldn’t give less of a shit how these companies are performing - that’s their lookout not mine. If they put out games I like, I’ll buy them. If it’s a bunch of crap I’m not into, then I’ll ignore it. I’m not for or against GaaS and I don’t really care what games they make. But as a consumer I’ll choose whether I see the value in it and take it from there.

I’ve had more fun this year with AA games than I have AAA, so I agree with the posters saying they should budget better and make more of those type of games. But if they don’t then I won’t be crying about it.

 

[Astray]

Any strategy that doesn't involve story-driven 1P games is not one that I would endorse.

No leak is ever going to change my mind on that, like even if the leaks told us that the live-service games are progressing well etc, I'd still be against it.

Beyond the continued existence and development of their as of yet High-Quality 1P fare, Sony's bottom line doesn't concern me in the least.

 

[Sleepwalker]

Development costs are not my problem. If they put out a game that looks appealing to me then they will get my money, if not they won't.

Making the budget work is their problem.

 

[RickMasters]

Gaas push makes sense if it’s adding not subtracting. Build/buy gaas studios, use tech from your WWS to help those studios, but don’t try and turn your SP studios into gaas.

This is very simple. PlayStation is an ecosystem where Sony gets a cut from third party MTX and game sales, they have three tiers os subs and you need to pay one of those to play online non F2P, and for cloud saves.

Messing up their SP studios pipelines with gaas bs, or cutting back to increase profits in the short term, is idiotic and will bite them in the ass.

This. Just have separate teams to work on the gaas stuff. Problem solved.


I don’t see them giving up their GAAS intentions. It’s big money. It’s what the kids love. And given the costs of AAA gaming…. Some devs even saying games should cost more to reflect the cost of making AAA games…. Well, it’s obvious something has to give. Sony can’t focus on single player story games with zero player retention or a back and they can’t make more money off…. That why they need a few of their GAAS experiments to Atleast be successful…. So far I think marathon might be the only one that has a shot at sticking with players but aI could turn out to be wrong about that….. I feel like they still do not fully know what they are getting into. But from a business perspective they need to. They also need to take the PC market more seriously in terms of releases dates and quality of ports.




And what of insomniac? A studio known for original IP and ideas gonnna be pumping out marvel games till the 2030s? Yeah they have proven they can make great super hero games…. But this also means no R&C for the foreseeable future…. And forget about any kind of resistance reboot. Well it was never in the cards anyway but now we can’t even speculate what they are working on. They are gonna be working on licensed superhero games for the next decade. I just feel like they deserve better. Throw them some money to staff up and work on some games with their signature art styles and approach to mechanics alongside these licensed games that are somewhat creatively constrained by the IP. I think I’d hate to just see them work on marvel games, only for the next 10 years. They are capable of so much more and this could lead to a some boredom for such a creative studio…. But we’ll see.

 

[F0rneus]

I definitely understand better. And also I am happy to know that we'll get a Venom game, that's going to be dope

 

[March Climber]

75 to 25 ratio. Wtf are you talking about? Keep coping.

He's saying normally it would have been closer to 90:10 or 95:5 and the fact that it's almost 1/4 of votes is a good change of pace.

 

[yurinka]

I think Sony knows that for the long term they need to have great performing GaaS titles. They already have some but are working on more.

This doesn't mean that will affect the single player, non-GaaS games. They will continue having a place in the market as long as they continue performing as well as Spider-Man 2, GoWR, and the other recent hits did.

But it's true that costs are getting too crazy and at some point they will have to reconsider a way to keep them down, in a more reasonable way. One of these options is something they already are doing and that they considered in the leaks: to bet more in shorter AAA SP games as the Uncharted games, Ratchet or Miles Morales. They are also profitable but don't require monster budgets.

I have no problems with GaaS titles like Gran Turismo 7 or MLB, and I'm pretty sure the new games from Bungie, Firewalk or Arrowheaad will be very good and will perform pretty well, like Fairgame$ too.

Those do look like multiplayer modes for existing single player titles in the pipeline, rather than "3 mulriplayer games" don't you think?
As opposed to the totally-not-cancelled-just-missing-from-the-schedule-till-2030 "the great web" Spiderman meets GTA Online standalone.

Unless it's now an idea to be worked into some sort of MP platform that will be expanded with all upcoming Marvel games (MP1.0, 2.0, 3.0 etc).
Could be.

That would explain why they need Wolverine and Spiderman be in a shared universe. PEGI13 softie Logan incoming.

Maybe the reason of Spider-Man 3 being more expensive is because, like GTA or GoT it will be mainly a SP game but will have an important MP game mode maybe to be released a bit later.

 

[Guilty_AI]

This is a HORRIBLE comparison. EVs are literally going up all in market share all over the world. Why can't people understand or see when it's the oil\gas\Big 3 companies that are trying to kill or stall the change over to electric vehicles. GM literally killed the electric car over 25 years ago and some are trying to do their best to do that again.

It's not going to work. EVs are literally the future of automobiles. Some people will have to learn to deal with that. Demand has soften due to bad products from the big 3, too small of a charging network infrastructure, and raising interest rates.

Interest is decreasing because people are finding out EVs have really low resale value due to diminishing battery life. That in itself also throws a wrench into the whole eco-friendly narrative as it implies more waste.

But that is besides the point, OPs analogies are dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously regardless.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Some companies already are. The greatest success stories for MS were with AA or small games, same for Square Enix.

Can you name these mythical games that are considered MS and Squares biggest successes? Preferably with data that shows exactly how successful they were?

Larian made Bg3 with 1/3rd the budget of Spider Man games and was a resounding success.

Larians most expensive game, by a considerable margin, was BG3. They're falling into the same AAA trap the rest of the industry is.

Except GAAS isn't safer. Not anymore. In case you didn't notice, GAAS games are crashing across the board, very few still standing strong. Compare the amount of remaining success stories with the sea of dead failures, its a huge investment with almost no guarantee it'll generate returns. Add to that governments around the world like China closing in on the most common and predatory practices and you'll see just how "safe" it is to put all your chips on a live service title.

All just vague statements with no data attached. The reason you're not providing data is because there is none. Copium of the highest order.

 

[mckmas8808]

Interest is decreasing because people are finding out EVs have really low resale value due to diminishing battery life. That in itself also throws a wrench into the whole eco-friendly narrative as it implies more waste.

But that is besides the point, OPs analogies are dumb and shouldn't be taken seriously regardless.

But how can interest be decreasing, while sales for EVs are going up at the same time? They are increasing in market share every year.

 

[Faust]

GAAS continue to remain the dumbest and worst form of gaming in the industry. So no, my opinion has not changed.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

What I meant is that you dont have to make a game bigger in scope than what we already have in order to keep being successful.

This is exactly what's happening across the entire industry. The biggest publishers + developer across the world are chasing bigger budgets and bigger scopes because it's more attractive than the alternative.

We've known this for more than a decade now.

AA is dead. The only AAA that succeeds now are games with big IP attached.

The pool is shrinking.

You also dont make one of the best restaurants in the world specialized in barbecues to only serve salads.

Make a freaking new restaurant with some low budget since it's not a sure success. Dont risk ruining one of your must successful investments. Its stupid.

And its exactly what they were doing with Naughty Dog. They even said so in their statement.

You do when your numbers are headed in the wrong direction.

When Barbecue is skyrocketing in price, and your customer base isn't growing, and salads are out earning barbecue more and more each year...you become a salad restaurant eventually.

 

[Guilty_AI]

Can you name these mythical games that are considered MS and Squares biggest successes? Preferably with data that shows exactly how successful they were?

Hi-Fi Rush -> Microsoft: "Was a resounding success." / Received to player and critical acclaim.
Square enix -> Dragon quest, Octopath, Nier.... Just look up their sales data.

Larians most expensive game, by a considerable margin, was BG3. They're falling into the same AAA trap the rest of the industry is.

Being the most expensive for them means nothing. Its still a fraction of the budget of a major AAA title. And they themselves said they would be focusing on smaller projects for the moment.

All just vague statements with no data attached. The reason you're not providing data is because there is none. Copium of the highest order.

The "data" has been provided through multiple threads and i've been quoting you on every single one when they come up

 

[Guilty_AI]

But how can interest be decreasing, while sales for EVs are going up at the same time? They are increasing in market share every year.

They're going up, but that growth is also slowing down considerably. And They're still nowhere near the market-share of common diesel/alchool vehicles.

As i speak, the different car makers are already trying to come up with solutions for EV devaluation, alongside a myriad of other issues. But as they are right now, they still have no chance to take over the market yet.

But again, besides the point of the topic, lets leave this at that.

 

[AJUMP23]

Having GAAS doesn’t mean you put your money in single player. You put your money where you are making money. If you are making money on services you put your money there.