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Evolution of Mario Kart Battle Mode and how Mario Kart 8 DX still managed to fumble

deleted

Member
So let's look back for a little bit:

snesc8xdx.png


Super Mario Kart introduced us to the battle mode which is a 3 life based arena deathmatch with Mario Karts. And it was fantastic. I couldn't really get into the vs driving, but I just loved the multiplayer with jumping in the pools and trying to get each other.
At the time it was my most played multiplayer game and mode for sure!


Along came Mario Kart 64 - they upped it to 4 players, gave us 3D gameplay which was excellent on Block Forts and Double Deck and had an excellent solution for the first two drop-outs who came back as bombs and could still mess with the other players - level the playing field.
Again, I loved that game and especially this mode.


Then we had Double Dash. As disappointing as the game was for me, it still played around with the battle mode formula a bit. The stages weren't as good or iconic, but we got 2 other modes out of it that were really fun!


Mario Kart DS introduced the balloon pumping method which was a really weird thing to do, but okay - we still have the basic formula of arenas and Shine Runners also makes a return.


Mario Kart Wii - this is the first time we get introduced to an online mode in Mario Kart on a console. Seems rather inconsequential, but for the Battle Mode that means big restructuring was necessary. They upped the player count and because of that, it didn't make sense to have people drop out and wait for the match to end when they were hit 3 times. So they changed the structure to a point based system and adjusted the stages to be much bigger to accommodate for the extra players. I pretty much loathed these changes. I didn't play this iteration a lot tbh, mostly because I couldn't get into non shared grand prix driving. For me, Mario Kart was always a local multiplayer game and I had very little interest in playing it for myself. Forcing me to play alone to unlock cups and players was a sure thing to lose my interest in an instant. Messing with the battle mode was another one.

I never played 3DS or GBA battle modes, so I can't say anything about them.


Which bring us to today - Mario Kart 8 DX comes along on the Switch and is a really fine port of the older Mario Kart 8. Not only that, but they fine tuned some mechanics, added players and karts - and as the big new thing, they reworked 8's Battle Mode.

Again, they really put thought into it - they looked, what worked in the past, what modes were liked, what maps they didn't do yet and what would fit MK8's style the best. Of course it had to be online focused because MK8 had an excellent online mode and it should be a cornerstone on 8DX too.


But apparently, the way the majority of the MK battle modes played, wasn't 'modern' enough anymore to even implement it as an option.
I somewhat get that they didn't build the maps to be played with 4 players only. I even get that they not even put in smaller versions of those maps as an option.
They have a little verticality, but not too much so you can't really make a drop on someone in most of them. I can also live with that. They even implemented a new mode that basically doesn't work with 4 players at all. I even get, that they dind't want to go back to Block Fort again, after having revisited it for a few times by now.

But to be really fun and have that evergreen status locally with four or less players it needs the option to go back to stock mode.
Having a counter running and just trying to get as many kills as possible isn't bad per se, but it robs the mode of so much tension. It was fantastic to have every player left down to 1 balloon and have everyone tense up and hoping for that one items that could change the game. Having them think about where they wanna go because they might get dropped on by a player they don't pay attention to atm.
Coming back as a bomb and taking revenge even.

All of this isn't possible anymore and the game came and went when it comes to local multiplayer for me. It's okay for a little while, but even Double Dash gave us the option to choose between stock and time. It's just not feasible for me, why they wouldn't put in a stock option for local or custom matches left of 3 minutes. It's such a small change and it makes a world of a difference for me - and I'm pretty sure for some of you too.

E3 came and went and we didn't hear about anything new coming to Mario Kart. Not that it was expected. But a small glimmer of hope was still left, that Nintendo might have heard the complains and implemented an option for those that still got their heads in the golden days of Mario Kart Battle Mode and wanted to reexperience the thrill of the one balloon standoff.
What's your favorite? How do you like the MK8DX battle modes locally? Is it enough for you to come back again and again?
 

RockmanBN

Member
I see why they went with the halve points option, though no one I play with locally likes to play those battle modes. Would have been nice to have a stock mode option for local.
 
So let's look back for a little bit:

But to be really fun and have that evergreen status locally with four or less players it needs the option to go back to stock mode.
Having a counter running and just trying to get as many kills as possible isn't bad per se, but it robs the mode of so much tension. It was fantastic to have every player left down to 1 balloon and have everyone tense up and hoping for that one items that could change the game. Having them think about where they wanna go because they might get dropped on by a player they don't pay attention to atm.
Coming back as a bomb and taking revenge even.

Nothing is more boring than being a 'dead' player and watching everyone else play while you're sitting back doing nothing.

Nintendo did the right thing.
 

Chauzu

Member
I've played MK8D more than Wii U version but only because of portability. Maybe an hour Battle Mode logged, I feel it's not that fun really. Maybe if voice chat was available for the thief and police game, but still not into voice chatting when playing eitherway.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
The balloon pumping mechanic in DS was such a great addition to the game. I think it should return along with elimination mode. Balloon battle just isn't much fun anymore. Thankfully I do enjoy the other modes in MK8.
 

TZchassis

Member
Local splitscreen battle mode for 3-4 players is not that fun anymore imo. The levels are huge that the players don't run into each other often & the lack of a stock option sucks.

There is easy solutions for these
- Make the levels smaller by making some areas inaccessible in each of the levels when playing with less 4 or less players.
- Make the stock option available locally and implement a comeback mechanic if you care so much about those bored players.


Bomberman R does it right by scaling the game based on the number of players.
 

deleted

Member
Nothing is more boring than being a 'dead' player and watching everyone else play while you're sitting back doing nothing.

Nintendo did the right thing.

I'm not saying it should be the default - I can see it being boring for other players. But with the history it has, it's like saying Valve should have made Gun Game the default mode for CS:GO because it's boring for other players to wait for the end of the round.
It should be an option is all I'm saying.

Local splitscreen battle mode for 3-4 players is not that fun anymore imo. The levels are huge that the players don't run into each other often & the lack of a stock option sucks.

There is easy solutions for these
- Make the levels smaller by making some areas inaccessible in each of the levels when playing with less 4 or less players.
- Make the stock option available locally and implement a comeback mechanic if you care so much about those bored players.


Bomberman R does it right by scaling the game based on the number of players.

I can see it being a little more difficult here, but essentially - yep.
Have on floor blocked in Luigi's Mansion, cut off one hill in the cake stage. I feel like the Super Mario Kart remade stage might still work with just 4 players though. But otherwise just make it one 'round' smaller.

To implement the option for custom/local matches shouldn't have been too much work. To make the stages smaller might have been, considering the size of the team and the time they had to work on this (we don't know but might guess less than during MK8 development)
 

Hermii

Member
Nothing is more boring than being a 'dead' player and watching everyone else play while you're sitting back doing nothing.

Nintendo did the right thing.

It adds a lot of tension and consequence to getting hit though, feels more like a real competition. There is a reason counter strike is still popular to this day.
 
An stock option would be nice, but to me it feels a lot more fun the way it is, considering I can still keep playing. I will no argue that the exhilaration of competition in a stock battle is pretty sweet, but in the long run I'd prefer how it's handling it now.

Still though, stock should be an option.
 
Nothing is more boring than being a 'dead' player and watching everyone else play while you're sitting back doing nothing.

Nintendo did the right thing.

Yeah fuck player elimination, here and in smash bros modes where players can sit out 5-10 minutes if people decide to turtle or run is awful.
 
I can't tell if they've really fumbled battle mode or if battle mode is just an inherently old feeling concept. They definitely messed up with the Wii U battle mode, but I don't think 8DX's is *bad*, it's just the last thing I want to do in those games now

You're right about stock mode though. I don't think that would fix my issue, but it's the better way to approach those games. Nintendo still default online Smash to timed too so who knows what they're doing
 

DarkTom

Member
Yeah stock mode is the best.

It seems that MK64's Battle Mode will never be beaten. They even had partly resolved the problem of waiting for others to finish with the rolling bomb reincarnation.

I have another idea to give something to do to eliminated players : an new item can be gotten by remaining players once you're done. The eliminated player becomes an ally for the player who gets that item. It could be a turret or a guided missile.
 

deleted

Member
It adds a lot of tension and consequence to getting hit though, feels more like a real competition. There is a reason counter strike is still popular to this day.

Excactly!

Yeah fuck player elimination, here and in smash bros modes where players can sit out 5-10 minutes if people decide to turtle or run is awful.

Fuck options, I guess?

Yeah stock mode is the best.

It seems that MK64's Battle Mode will never be beaten. They even had partly resolved the problem of waiting for others to finish with the rolling bomb reincarnation.

I have another idea to give something to do to eliminated players : an new item can be gotten by remaining players once you're done. The eliminated player becomes an ally for the player who gets that item. It could be a turret or a guided missile.

I feel like that too - it felt like a very good evolution from the SNES and it still had ways to go.

I always dreamt of Smash Bros like options for Mario Kart - chosing what items I want active during race and battle mode, building on the stages that came before.

But here we are, regressing in both departments.
 
An elimination option would be nice as would some smaller maps for less players. Otherwise meh. As it is now you pretty much cant win if you lose all 5 of your starting balloons. Going from 12 balloons to 6 is basically game over.
 

1morerobot

Member
Seriously, there is not a stock option for local multiplayer? Wow, that really brings it down for me. OP kinda nailed it with the tense feeling when everyone is down to 1 balloon.

If Nintendo could just port Mario 64's battle mode with online support, updated graphics (if even just higher resolution and framerates) I'd be so freaking happy. I would even settle for just the 4 original maps.
 

1morerobot

Member
Local splitscreen battle mode for 3-4 players is not that fun anymore imo. The levels are huge that the players don't run into each other often & the lack of a stock option sucks.

There is easy solutions for these
- Make the levels smaller by making some areas inaccessible in each of the levels when playing with less 4 or less players.
- Make the stock option available locally and implement a comeback mechanic if you care so much about those bored players.


Bomberman R does it right by scaling the game based on the number of players.

Exactly. Is it really that hard to implement this stuff? There is no excuse for local multiplayer not having stock options.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
I don't fucking understand why Nintendo cant allow us to pick number of players and deathmatch .

Why.

Why.

It's the best way to play.
 

deleted

Member
Seriously, there is not a stock option for local multiplayer? Wow, that really brings it down for me. OP kinda nailed it with the tense feeling when everyone is down to 1 balloon.

If Nintendo could just port Mario 64's battle mode with online support, updated graphics (if even just higher resolution and framerates) I'd be so freaking happy. I would even settle for just the 4 original maps.

That would also be all kinds of amazing, especially with functioning audio in 4 player mode and 60 FPS.

They didn't fumble anything. It is great in DX and they made the right choice with eliminations.

Why not have it as an option though? It wouldn't change anything that is in now, but make the mode more enjoyable for those that search for such an option.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
People say MK64 was the best, but I'd argue it's quite clearly DS, which gets up to the full 8 players in maps of the right size with greater balance and an incredible balloon mechanic. I don't know how anyone can seriously argue for MK64's battle mode over MKDS' with serious nostalgia goggles.
 

Revven

Member
Yeah fuck player elimination, here and in smash bros modes where players can sit out 5-10 minutes if people decide to turtle or run is awful.

"My anecdotal experience with friends who take free for alls or balloon battle too seriously in older games means options shouldn't exist"

Unreal.
 

NimbusD

Member
Yeah, the maps are way too large. Had a party w 6 people recently all playing and I could still spending the majority of the match not running into people.
 
I agree OP, I've missed stock battles for a long time. Mario Kart DS implemented it best in my opinion in both design and map selection. I don't know what you meant about the weirdness of pumping balloons, having access to five total balloons (plus those you steal) lengthened matches plus there was the tension of being caught unaware while you tried to pump a new balloon.
 

The Hermit

Member
I thought it had this time.

So this is like the shitty battle from the Wii... I am glad I skipped this then.

Online super Mario kart and Mario kart 64 is our only hope now.
 

deleted

Member
People say MK64 was the best, but I'd argue it's quite clearly DS, which gets up to the full 8 players in maps of the right size with greater balance and an incredible balloon mechanic. I don't know how anyone can seriously argue for MK64's battle mode over MKDS' with serious nostalgia goggles.

I agree OP, I've missed stock battles for a long time. Mario Kart DS implemented it best in my opinion in both design and map selection. I don't know what you meant about the weirdness of pumping balloons, having access to five total balloons (plus those you steal) lengthened matches plus there was the tension of being caught unaware while you tried to pump a new balloon.

I wasn't really a fan of the balloon mechanic - how did it work again? You had to blow inside the mic to blow a new balloon up, right? Was is limited to a number of ballons?

The DS one was fine - I just enjoy splitscreen more for this series. Knowing where the other players are and what they are up to... Also you just need 4 controllers and not 4 - 8 DSes. It wasn't really a party game over here, because my friends are rather PC centric aside from local MP.

How was the 3DS one btw? Did it have a stock option?
 

Smasher89

Member
Only got the regular version with all dlc (meaning wii u version).and noticed a few of these missed things even in regular vs race mode. Like no all tour cup, but even worse is the online mode where you cant even play a cup (all tour would have been the most fun) where the game ends when all stages have been played, making going for first place a actual thing.
 
Is it me or is it impossible to have proper one v one battles in Mario Kart 8 on Switch?

I hate the fact there are bots. I want me and my mate and nobody else. There are bots even when I select no teams.
 
Nothing is more boring than being a 'dead' player and watching everyone else play while you're sitting back doing nothing.

Nintendo did the right thing.

The_Endgamer
Today 11:16 AM

And no, I theoretically understand your sentiment but I have never seen a real life person exhibit it in local play. Point based victories with more than two people playing are essentially random and feel completely stupid, and "playing" while knowing there's no chance you'll come back with your score before the clock rings is actually disheartening to me, while otherwise I can at least watch people play better.

Yeah fuck player elimination, here and in smash bros modes where players can sit out 5-10 minutes if people decide to turtle or run is awful.

Yeah, because that's the best way to deal with people screwing with the game, completely screwing the game instead.
 

deleted

Member
Is it me or is it impossible to have proper one v one battles in Mario Kart 8 on Switch?

I hate the fact there are bots. I want me and my mate and nobody else. There are bots even when I select no teams.

That is actually possible, you can turn the CPU dial from normal to none.
Sadly you cannot determine the number of CPUs. Would be lovely to play with less CPUs for a less chaotic, but still crowded play.
 
Give me an N64 style Battle mode (three balloons) and I will play it. Not this modern crap. I just played it once on Deluxe and never touched it again.
 

deleted

Member
Give me an N64 style Battle mode (three balloons) and I will play it. Not this modern crap. I just played it once on Deluxe and never touched it again.

I don't have anything against it - I can see the values of the implemented modes in online modes.

It's just that a few simple sliders would have made the modes a lot more versatile. To be able to adjust the number of CPUs playing or switch between Stock and Time would go a long way for the longevity of the battle mode.
 
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