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Elon Musk Wants You to Have Babies
- Thread starter haxan7
- Start date
I strongly disagree with the guy. Our planet is hopefully overpopulated.
Sure, low birth rates cause major trouble for our modern economic systems. But its still inevitable. Humanity simply can't keep growing at these rates anymore.
Aside from what's hypothetically best - having kids is quite a challenge these days.
Usually both partners tend to work (which is great if they want to; less great if they don't want to, but have no other economically viable option). Childcare availability hasn't even remotely kept up with that life model, resulting in enormous struggle to combine 2 jobs plus kids. Housing is more expensive than ever. Daycare and schooling is more expensive than ever. University is more expensive than ever.
Yup.. Don't see that trend reversing anytime soon without massive government subsidies
Sure, low birth rates cause major trouble for our modern economic systems. But its still inevitable. Humanity simply can't keep growing at these rates anymore.
Aside from what's hypothetically best - having kids is quite a challenge these days.
Usually both partners tend to work (which is great if they want to; less great if they don't want to, but have no other economically viable option). Childcare availability hasn't even remotely kept up with that life model, resulting in enormous struggle to combine 2 jobs plus kids. Housing is more expensive than ever. Daycare and schooling is more expensive than ever. University is more expensive than ever.
Yup.. Don't see that trend reversing anytime soon without massive government subsidies
Javthusiast
Banned
I think "childcare is too expensive" is not the reason. In European countries like Finland, Germany, Denmark you get tons of support for new parents - IMHO they get the most support an average person has ever gotten in history, and their birthrate is still low.
I agree with all except the bolded ones - does not really apply in many EU countries where college, healthcare, daycare are all very low cost.
Yoda
Member
I suppose those are handled by the government, thus lacking the egregious sticker price we see in the U.S., but the government has to sap into the earnings of the citizens to do it (much higher taxes), thus the end result is still lower earning power. How that translates on a person to person level between different systems is probably hard to overly generalize about, but it's probably not a stretch to assume: less disposable income = more anxiety about making big life decisions -> lower chance of pulling the "have a baby" trigger.
WRT housing.... I know the UK isn't in the EU anymore, but housing near major cities (London, Cardiff) there last time I checked was very expensive relative to median income (I use to have a job that was split between NYC and London). I'd assume the same follows for other hubs like Dublin, Berlin, Paris, etc...?
I was specifically thinking about Finland which has BY FAR the best child care and maternity support in the world, bar none. And still...
Why Has Finland’s Fertility Rate Collapsed - And Are There Lessons For Us?
Finland's fertility rate collapse -- though its causes are a mystery -- calls into question the conventional wisdom about fertility rates.
www.forbes.com
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
You realise that you can still get laid without having kids, right? I find that people who are upset at others for not having kids only want others to join them in their misery so that they can feel good about themselves. How about you let people decide whether they want to procreate or not.
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
The world fertility rate is 2.4 per woman - more than enough to cause a constant increase in population. But he obviously means in the developed world because that’s his market.
Mossybrew
Member
Of course I don't care, its obviously a deeply personal choice, I was just drunk and extra.
Aesius
Member
Being rich would truly be a gamechanger for having kids. I can't even imagine how much easier it would be to have a huge house and a live-in nanny (or multiple nannies for that matter). That said, I know a few kids with rich parents who were raised by nannies, and most of them turned out terribly.
Coolwhhip
Neophyte
The whole “Im too poor to have kids” is nonsense anyway. Just an excuse people tell themselves.
Aesius
Member
It's not nonsense. But it also depends on how much help you have.
A couple with no family around can do quite well if they have enough money for one parent to stay home or they can send their kids to a nice daycare/hire a nanny. But a couple with no family around that's also struggling to make ends meet may be in a world of pain after having a few kids because there are no backup plans. Both parents have to work no matter what. These kids often end up in shitty daycares or just being left home alone/with people their parents barely know or trust because they have no other options.
Now imagine that the couple splits up and one parent is left raising the kids alone and they're already poor as fuck. To say that lack of money isn't an excuse to not have kids is naïve.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
No thanks Elon. I prefer to have my money than have a kid.
Nester99
Member
Our shitty society in a nutshell.
Shitty? Sparing a child of life of poverty is pretty damn benevolent. I wish more of the world showed that same restraint. It costs way more than a cup of coffee a month to raise a kid like sally struthers had us believing.
Dural
Member
You also have women in their 30s that now want kids and have been on birth control for 15 years and didn't realize that it fucked up their hormones and it can take years, if they're even able to get pregnant.
There are so many people that talk about overpopulation, it almost seems like they've never been anywhere to see just how much open space there is on this planet. My wife has a cousin like this and she hasn't been anywhere, hasn't seen anything but her little slice and thinks there are too many people there so everywhere must be the same.
DeepBreath87
Banned
I see a lot of people in here with no kids talking about how hard it is to have kids. I’m not saying your imagination isn’t valid. I’m just saying you have no clue what you’re talking about.
Raising children can be difficult. But it’s good to do difficult things. And very few things are better for you and the world around that raising good people to be here when you’re gone. The idiocy of the idea that the world will be better because you decided not to have kids is hard to overstate.
“Sparing a child from a life of poverty? Assuming you’re from a western country, what the fuck are you talking about? By historical standards, we are all rich beyond imagination. Stop whining and get soMe goddamn perspective. And stop acting like your decision not to have children is some kind of moral stance. That doesn’t fool anybody.
Raising children can be difficult. But it’s good to do difficult things. And very few things are better for you and the world around that raising good people to be here when you’re gone. The idiocy of the idea that the world will be better because you decided not to have kids is hard to overstate.
“Sparing a child from a life of poverty? Assuming you’re from a western country, what the fuck are you talking about? By historical standards, we are all rich beyond imagination. Stop whining and get soMe goddamn perspective. And stop acting like your decision not to have children is some kind of moral stance. That doesn’t fool anybody.
SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
So, he's right, but also he's the reason people aren't having kids. For decades oligarchs have set the policy for this country and slowly eroded the wages and living conditions of the working class. The cost of childcare, and of home ownership has gone up drastically in proportion to wages, which have been flat for 40 years. People can't afford to raise kids anymore. It will BADLY hurt this country if we don't fix it.Condoms off, boys.
Elon Musk says 'civilization is going to crumble' if people don't have more children
The tech billionaire said low and rapidly declining birth rates are "one of the biggest risks to civilization."www.cnbc.com
Even those middle class people who want kids, it takes them a lot longer to get to where they are economically secure than past decades. Like if you spend your 20s hungry, you aren't going to have kids. My dad had bought multiple homes before he turned 30. I am 40 and make twice as much as he ever made in his best year and still can't afford it. These are real factors in why I haven't had a kid, not because I don't want to.
Fuck billionaires. I'm all for capitalism, but every RPG needs a level cap.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Just to be clear if I had a kid I wouldn't be anywhere near the poverty line so that has nothing to do with it. I would just have significantly less money and freedom than I do now and that just does not sound appealing to me at all.
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OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
I was going to write something like 'typical millennial attitude' but I'll go another way. Do you love your partner? I'm sure you do. I can tell you now that whatever you feel towards them is absolutely insignificant to the love you have for your child. It's the closest thing to 'true love' that bs romantic authors have been writing about for centuries. You'll likely fall out of love with your partner. This doesn't happen with a kid. Exceptions of course. I don't expect many people can really understand it till they experience it for themselves. If you value your free time to play video games that's all well and good but you're missing out. Not just you. lol
GermanZepp
Member
I consider that having a child is one of the most important thing you can do in your life. The responsability and the time you have to put is overwelming, your life jusf shifts completly. I have lost faith in humanity so my family surname ends with me.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Look man, this is the definition of selfishness. And that’s fine. But let’s call it what it is. Your life is ultimately vapid and self centered. That’s ok for you I guess. You should appreciate that your parents didn’t have your attitude, or you wouldn’t exist. And it would certainly be noble of you to try and give what your parents gave to you to some else. Of course, you are free to live your live being free of that responsibility if you so choose. Generally that hasn’t worked out well for most people, but maybe it will for you.
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Yoda
Member
While I agree with your premise WRT wages/financial instability, it's a bit more nuanced than billionaire bad. There are a lot of factors (globalization, automation, etc...) but the largest that is a direct policy choice is the use of central banking for controlling the monetary supply. We've been in a "money is free" zone for a long time now (more than a decade since the credit crunch in 2008) and before that, we had artificially low rates post dot-com bubble. The "free money" isn't free for everyone, it'll generally get distributed towards those heavily leverages in assets, large institutions, etc... By the time the money has 'trickled down' prices have already adjusted and wages generally don't move. The problem is that it's a slow boil. No one notices for a long time that there are negative ramifications and given the homogeneity of the media on this subject, all dissenters are painted as quacks.
GermanZepp
Member
Well, people don't have the same love capacity that is for sure, and on top of that we feels things diferently. Makes me sad to hear some folks think that certain kind of feeling love is "locked" behind having a kid. Sounds like the only way of loosen up is thru that kind of relationship, and that is fine.
DeepBreath87
Banned
Having kids requires a selflessness like nothing else. You have to give yourself to other people and the reward is seeing them grow and develop and, hopefully succeed by living a fulfilling life themselves. You can get that other places in some form, like volunteering or something. But generally, raising children is unique in life and will bring you joy and reward in a way other things do not.
GermanZepp
Member
I understand that having a kid lays and provides the backwround for those emotions to arise cause you are involved in new different experiences and situations , But then againg you are generalizing the experience, not all dudes feels that way, there is a lot of unwanted childs, hell, 90% of my friends kids were "mistakes", there are also absent parents and emotionaly numb people. In any case im happy for the men that can experience what you talk about and a lot of people describes having a child like unconditional love, my point is that is not the only way you can experience that.
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SF Kosmo
Al Jazeera Special Reporter
I don't mean to imply that the wealth gap alone is the problem, but our policy is overwhelmingly determined by the wealthy, so I would argue these things are also consequences of that wealth/power gap. If we didn't have a small group of elites with unlimited money and influence, we would have policy that better allowed middle and working class people to raise children.
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Aesius
Member
And by historical standards we are also raising our kids in relative isolation more than any other generation in human history. Raising kids when you're poor but have their grandmothers, grandfathers, aunts, uncles, etc., to help out is a completely different ballgame from doing it when you're poor and have little to no family that's either nearby or willing to help out.
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It's a deeply unpopular opinion these days but I think overpopulation IS a huge problem - that is if you care about the poor, or protecting the environment and/or climate.
People always tout land resources and agricultural efficiencies as a reason why we can feed an ever increasing world population but never take into account the costs of these things. Dedicating more and more land to agriculture destroys the enivornment. I'm from Ireland where 90%+ of the island is nothing like it used to be (or should be), now being a criss-cross of farming fields dotted with small towns. Almost our whole natural environment was destroyed by agriculture hundreds of years ago. It can happen (and is happening) elsewhere.
As for efficiencies, the chemicals used to grow crops to ever more exacting consumer standards for size / shape / colour leads to environmental castastrophes. A well know example is the introduction of the pesticide DDT, which nearly entirely wiped out the bald eagle. It took decades to realise that DDT was fucking with the development of the eagles' shells, and once they banned it populations bounced right back. But how many other, not-famous species did we lose in the meantime? How many are we losing right now? How many to new tech / chemicals in the future?
Another reason is the developing world. I've worked in Kenya at a charity directed by my uncle - who is very familiar with Africa having worked there three decades. It's impossible to implement public policy successfully there, because plans put in place are outgrown by the population almost immediately. A 20 year plan put in place in 2000 would have been with a population of 30 million. Now it's 55 million. It's an impossible to hit moving target, and the poverty on the ground is disgusting and extreme. People will say "oh the poverty rate has dropped five percentages point (or whatever), poverty has decreased" but 10% of 55 million starving is millions more than 15% of 30 million, you get it? Real human suffering has increased due the population explosion.
And if we do (as we should) lift all of these people out of poverty, then the "western consumption" angle of the argument falls apart. Because they will ALL want to consume like we do. China performed a miracle lifting 500 million people out of poverty in 50 years, and now we see what's happening to their consumption and their emissions. We can't assume the developing world will keep consuming / emitting like they currently do.
I could go on about low birth rates in the west causing immigration leading to a brain drain form the developing nations dooming them further and a whole bunch of other points but I think you get it.
The solution to all of this is stable populations in every country but how you get there I don't know.
People always tout land resources and agricultural efficiencies as a reason why we can feed an ever increasing world population but never take into account the costs of these things. Dedicating more and more land to agriculture destroys the enivornment. I'm from Ireland where 90%+ of the island is nothing like it used to be (or should be), now being a criss-cross of farming fields dotted with small towns. Almost our whole natural environment was destroyed by agriculture hundreds of years ago. It can happen (and is happening) elsewhere.
As for efficiencies, the chemicals used to grow crops to ever more exacting consumer standards for size / shape / colour leads to environmental castastrophes. A well know example is the introduction of the pesticide DDT, which nearly entirely wiped out the bald eagle. It took decades to realise that DDT was fucking with the development of the eagles' shells, and once they banned it populations bounced right back. But how many other, not-famous species did we lose in the meantime? How many are we losing right now? How many to new tech / chemicals in the future?
Another reason is the developing world. I've worked in Kenya at a charity directed by my uncle - who is very familiar with Africa having worked there three decades. It's impossible to implement public policy successfully there, because plans put in place are outgrown by the population almost immediately. A 20 year plan put in place in 2000 would have been with a population of 30 million. Now it's 55 million. It's an impossible to hit moving target, and the poverty on the ground is disgusting and extreme. People will say "oh the poverty rate has dropped five percentages point (or whatever), poverty has decreased" but 10% of 55 million starving is millions more than 15% of 30 million, you get it? Real human suffering has increased due the population explosion.
And if we do (as we should) lift all of these people out of poverty, then the "western consumption" angle of the argument falls apart. Because they will ALL want to consume like we do. China performed a miracle lifting 500 million people out of poverty in 50 years, and now we see what's happening to their consumption and their emissions. We can't assume the developing world will keep consuming / emitting like they currently do.
I could go on about low birth rates in the west causing immigration leading to a brain drain form the developing nations dooming them further and a whole bunch of other points but I think you get it.
The solution to all of this is stable populations in every country but how you get there I don't know.
DeepBreath87
Banned
That’s fair, but being aware of how shit some people are to their kids is more reason to have kids and be good to them. The world needs good men and good fathers. If you really think you can’t do that, I’d recommend you talk to a therapist. Because most people can. They just have to commit to it. And we all need to commit to something. It’s not easy to think of something better to commit to than being a good dad to your kids.
DeepBreath87
Banned
So I will suggest, that if these problems are serious enough to you that you will forgo having children, you should dedicate the energy you would’ve put into those children to actually make the world better in some way. Because I see this sentiment from a lot of people who then proceed to spend a lot of time going out drinking and living it up throughout their 20s and 30s, which while perfectly fine, makes me doubt very much whether the reason they don’t want to have kids has less to do with saving the planet and a lot more to do with not wanting responsibility to get in the way of them having a good time.
I’m not saying this is you, because you said you helped out with a charity in Africa. But I will say that people who don’t have children do need to find someway to do good for people other than themselves. Because just not having kids is like the real world version of “thoughts and prayers”.
haxan7
Volunteered as Tribute
Care for a cream pie, miss?
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
Why are do so many parents feel like they’re out of love with their kids then? So many kids are poorly raised, you see it all the time. Kids being fat, clearly not fed home made nutritious food or given free access to the internet to have some peace. Some parents take their kids to ikea to have free childcare and some peace. I’m sure what you’re saying is true for you but it doesn’t seem to be the case for every parent. And parents hit their kids until recently as well. I guess that was true love too.
GermanZepp
Member
That's all right. Nobody is taking away your experience. Some people need to have kids to discover deep commitment, or forgiveness, naiveness, etc.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
Actually, you don’t discover that by being a parent. You discover most of that by growing up and developing healthy relationships. Being a parent is about teaching those things to someone else, which is something pretty unique in most people’s lives. But I appreciate your backhanded attempt at being snarky.
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Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Wait fucking what? Not wanting to have kids because it would result in a life that I would not want for myself is "vapid", "self centered", and "selfish"? Wow. Today I learned that me not wanting to have kids makes me a bad person for some strange insane reason to some completely bizarre minority of people lol
I have expressed my reasoning to friends and family multiple times throughout my life (including my own grandfather before he passed away) and not once has anyone ever had a ridiculous reaction like that before. How bizarre lol
Yeah because letting people live the lives they choose to live generally doesn't work out well for them......
Dude what are you on right now? Can I have some?
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DeepBreath87
Banned
If the reason you don’t want to raise children boils down to “I want free time and money”, that’s selfish just by definition. It’s selfish thinking. It’s not like you’re out there trying to help people or do something for anyone else that children would stop you from doing. According to you, you just want more money and free time. That’s self centered reasoning. You’re just going to have to own that. Sorry if you find that upsetting.Wait fucking what? Not wanting to have kids because it would result in a life that I would not want for myself is "vapid", "self centered", and "selfish"? Wow. Today I learned that me not wanting to have kids makes me a bad person for some strange insane reason to some completely bizarre minority of people lol
I have expressed my reasoning to friends and family multiple times throughout my life (including my own grandfather before he passed away) and not once has anyone ever had a ridiculous reaction like that before. How bizarre lol
Yeah because letting people live the lives they choose to live generally doesn't work out well for them......
Dude what are you on right now? Can I have some?
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
I’d argue that wanting kids is equally as self centered. It starts with a decision to make yourself feel good - am I wrong there? Some people feel that kids give them purpose so the kid’s existence is for the parents’ benefit.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
That only works if you somehow believe that having kids somehow makes you better than those who do not. My decision to not have kids is based on the life I wish to live and that does not involve kids. That does not make me a bad person by any objective measure. I do not usually like to be so blunt, but to make having kids a basis for whether or not someone is a good person regardless of their reasoning is fucking stupid and you are a ridiculous person to me in this moment for trying to take that stance. I say that because I have seen enough of your posts over a long enough period of time to know that you are not usually a foolish person so I will limit that judgement to this particular discussion. But here in this moment you seem like a complete fool to me.
Not having kids regardless of reasoning is not a measure of someone's worth as a human being. Some people are just not cut out to be parents. Some may not way to have kids due to the way the world looks at the moment. For others it may be a financial decision. For some it may be a position taken because of some horrific experience. Regardless of the reason though there is no basis for judging someone's worth on whether or not they want to have kids. Man or woman. Regardless of reasoning.
Willingness to have kids =/= Being a good person.
Loads of shit bags who proved themselves not worthy of the right to breath have had kids and loads of good and genuine people have lived their whole lives without having a family.
Doom85
Member
But seriously, bruh, get off your high horse. I’ve seen religious fanatics less judgmental than you. How people live is their own business as long as it’s not hurting anyone. And guess what, merely having a job makes one a productive member of society. That’s providing a service for people, and the money one gets from said job then gets used to help the economy. So no, people without kids aren’t automatically some bums who don’t contribute to society at all or some shit.
Seriously, you must be the life of the party. If somebody told you they had a nice weekend just hanging with friends, seeing a movie, etc. do you get all in their face too? I used to have a co-worker I talked to and she had 4 kids. We’d discuss what we did on the weekends when we worked Sunday morning, and I noticed she was always stressed out the way she described how busy she was managing all of them even on Saturday’s. Eventually I felt bad telling her about hanging with my friends, seeing movies, playing games, going to cons, etc. so I asked if she wanted me to stop bringing it up. She said there was no need to stop, she made her choice to have kids, and she didn’t think it would be cool to be judgmental or petty towards others who live differently. I recommend taking a page out of her book and try to be more chill about this. You’re just going to push people away with this attitude of yours.
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
That's why I said exceptions to every rule. Shit parents are very real obviously.
Edit: also if you think child obesity is purely a result of bad parenting I'm not going to listen to anything further you have to say. That's absolutely nonsense. This country has an obesity problem regardless of age.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
Hey, do you man. I didn’t say you choice not to have kids made you a bad person. I said if you reason not to have them boils down to “I want money and free time”, that’s selfish. If you had some trauma or some financial hardship or something, that’s different. It is just like the guy above me who thinks if he had kids he can’t go drinking on the weekends. If you’re whole like is about you having a good time, your life is self centered. I don’t really care how that makes you feel. Words have a meaning. Human being should probably be about more than getting drunk with your buddies. That doesn’t mean there isn’t a place for it. But forgoing the thing that provides for you and for society and for humanity (ie the next generation of people) is more important than drinking with your friends.
Dude, I don’t care what you do. If some guy online being kind of upfront about all this turns you off to having kids, you should try having opinions that stand up to a stiff breeze. I find our society to be dangerously vapid and empty. A lot of people chasing a lot of temporary nonsense with no direction. I think it’s a big reason why suicide and depression are such big issues. Because if going out with the boys is so important that it prevents you from having kids, I think you have bad priorities. Obviously these are my opinions and your free to ignore them if you’d rather not have the discussion.
But seriously, bruh, get off your high horse. I’ve seen religious fanatics less judgmental than you. How people live is their own business as long as it’s not hurting anyone. And guess what, merely having a job makes one a productive member of society. That’s providing a service for people, and the money one gets from said job then gets used to help the economy. So no, people without kids aren’t automatically some bums who don’t contribute to society at all or some shit.
Seriously, you must be the life of the party. If somebody told you they had a nice weekend just hanging with friends, seeing a movie, etc. do you get all in their face too? I used to have a co-worker I talked to and she had 4 kids. We’d discuss what we did on the weekends when we worked Sunday morning, and I noticed she was always stressed out the way she described how busy she was managing all of them even on Saturday’s. Eventually I felt bad telling her about hanging with my friends, seeing movies, playing games, going to cons, etc. so I asked if she wanted me to stop bringing it up. She said there was no need to stop, she made her choice to have kids, and she didn’t think it would be cool to be judgmental or petty towards others who live differently. I recommend taking a page out of her book and try to be more chill about this. You’re just going to push people away with this attitude of yours.
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
In your opinion*
And I will leave the discussion there. I am not gonna waste anymore time on this ridiculous subject lol
OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
I agree with him. It is selfish. The only thing to debate is whether or not being selfish is always a bad thing or not. Not having kids for your stated reasons of money and free time is pure selfishness. What would you call it?
Nobody_Important
“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
My response is to once again point out that someone having kids is not a measure by which to say someone is good or not regardless of their reasoning behind it. Like I said before I have followed his posts long enough at this point to know that he is not an idiot and I have followed yours more than long enough to know that you're not an idiot either and yet both of you are acting like complete fools in the face of what should be a pretty basic circumstance of someone just not wanting to have kids because it does not fit into the lifestyle that they want to live. Like this is so basic and so fucking easy to understand from my perspective that I am legitimately at a loss for words as to why either one of you let alone both of you are throwing a hissy fit over this and trying to claim that I am just a bad person for something that is so normal.
I have known easily over a dozen people in my life both friends and family who just decided that they just did not want to have kids because it did not fit into the way that they wanted to live their life either financially, religiously, or socially. Never once in all of the times that these people made their feelings known to me did I think to myself about that they were selfish or whatever.
And with that I really am done because this is just stupid at this point to debate such a basic and common life decision just because the two of you have some bizarre problem with it. I am putting the thread on ignore that way I don't have to be bothered with this again.
You two can continue to believe in whatever that you want. I of course cannot stop you.
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OmegaSupreme
advanced basic bitch
I stopped reading after you called my responses a 'hissy fit'. Be an adult about this. Or don't. I dont care.
Edit. Putting the thread on ignore so you don't have to deal with this? Weakness. Maybe you should spend some of your child less time looking for a backbone.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
He’s just upset because he sees the truth in what we are saying, so rather than rebut that, he’s forced to straw man the point and run off with his tail between his legs. No one ever called him a bad person. I said his reasoning was selfish. That obviously struck a chord with him and he got upset.