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DoJ to sue colleges that "discriminate against white applicants" w/affirmative action

If it were me or my kids I could understand feeling a little bit salty. Basically on average you have to achieve higher than other ethnicities in order to secure a place at a top school. I think it would particularly bother me if I was a first-generation immigrant from a relatively poor background.

It's not about representation as an ethnic group (plus, "Asian" is a super diverse ethnic grouping anyway), but being potentially personally disadvantaged by systematic bias.

SAT isn't enough information. SAT is also highly correlated to income and is not a good indicator of academic success in college.

If you're going to limit the sample size to only Ivies and those equivalent, you're limiting yourself to an extremely small sample size. They get many times more applicants than they have spots. Something will give - especially given many more factors are considered beyond test scores.

Ivies and the like represent around 1% or less of total available seats in a given admissions season.

But given that info, I would have no problem nuking legacies. Maybe we should focus on that group as one that is taking spots. Not black kids who on average get shit on at every stage of the game leading up to college, in college, and beyond college.
 

ccbfan

Member
Sounds like you have a disliking towards this forum and a reading impairment. Quote me where I said all Asians are not well rounded.

If a race have much higher score on all none bias measurable things (grades, test scores, etc) and the reason people of that race doesn't get in is because of blandness and not well rounded ness what else are you implying then?
 
Was the school in California and did you apply late?

East Coast (mostly New England), applied 1st round. Multiple top schools I did not get in or wait listed.

Also top schools have single digit percentages of minorities. If all you needed was to be a person of color with a 4.0 GPA and great SAT score then that number would be much much higher. Black students with high GPAs and SAT scores are not unicorns.

If a race have much higher score on all none bias measurable things (grades, test scores, etc) and the reason people of that race doesn't get in is because of blandness and not well rounded ness what else are you implying then?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=245154033&postcount=137

And I told you that I wanted you to quote me where I said all Asians were bland. I'm waiting.
 

Apt101

Member
It's funny because I knew some Asian peers who put themselves as white in college applicants.

I'm half white and asian, I always said I was just white in such documentation after it was suggested that I do so many times throughout high school and even into college - so that I could better quality for scholarships and such after I had already begun attendance. I don't know if it's a common practice, but I wasn't going to harm my own chances of success because of some accident of birth, if you will.
 

ccbfan

Member
But given that info, I would have no problem nuking legacies. Maybe we should focus on that group as one that is taking spots. Not black kids who on average get shit on at every stage of the game leading up to college, in college, and beyond college.

I would love to nuke legacies but unlike aa my government isn't using my tax dollars to hurt my children because of their race from getting into a good school.
 
Closing in on a return that that time when men were men, when women were women, and when negroes knew their place.

sw011703d_lr.jpg


in a nutshell

this is missing the white male with lower test scores and a lower GPA but was in all ways more well rounded and evaluated to be a better fit on campus and more likely to actually graduate. Thus admitted over the white male who did nothing outside of homework and test prep. Of course that doesn't sell as well as "the minority tip-toeing in the dark, steelin ur shit."
 

Polari

Member
SAT isn't enough information. SAT is also highly correlated to income and is not a good indicator of academic success in college.

If you're going to limit the sample size to only Ivies and those equivalent, you're limiting yourself to an extremely small sample size. They get many times more applicants than they have spots. Something will give - especially given many more factors are considered beyond test scores.

Ivies and the like represent around 1% or less of total available seats in a given admissions season.

But given that info, I would have no problem nuking legacies. Maybe we should focus on that group as one that is taking spots. Not black kids who on average get shit on at every stage of the game leading up to college, in college, and beyond college.

Yeah, I agree legacies is the real bullshit.

I don't have a problem with affirmative action. I think the problem is a lot of people don't understand it's more nuanced than a quota system, i.e. it's not just on the basis of ethnicity in most cases, but things like socio-economic status as well. It would be interesting to see a study controlling for socio-economic status.
 
I would love to nuke legacies but unlike aa my government isn't using my tax dollars to hurt my children because of their race from getting into a good school.

The only thing hurting your children is thinking any school not in the top 10 or whatever isn't a good school. That shows a profound lack of college planning, research, and understanding.
 

pigeon

Banned
I would love to nuke legacies but unlike aa my government isn't using my tax dollars to hurt my children because of their race from getting into a good school.

Error of causative analysis. The government didn't take a spot from your kids. The government took a spot from a white guy and gave it to a black woman, and the prejudiced admissions team took a spot from your kids and gave it to that white guy so he wouldn't be left out.
 

platocplx

Member
The only thing hurting your children is thinking any school not in the top 10 or whatever isn't a good school. That shows a profound lack of college planning, research, and understanding.
YUP. the quality of education is so much more even than people think it's crazy that anyone thinks just top school or bust esp, if they aren't wholly gifted and well rounded.
 
From AAPI, a group that's focused purely on collecting data about the causes of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

http://aapidata.com/blog/asian-american-student-population-growth-at-ten-schools-from-2006-2015/

To find out how Asian Americans were doing at elite universities, I researched admissions trends from 2006-2015 at 10 schools – both public and private. The schools were: University of Texas, Austin; University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill; University of Michigan, University of Virginia, UC Berkeley, UCLA, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and Cornell. I selected these schools based on “prestige,” as well as whether the schools released their Common Data Sets to the public.

In order to understand how Asian Americans were doing in comparison with others, I also studied Native Hawaiians and Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, African Americans, Latinos, and whites.

I found that while Asian American and Latino student enrollment has grown steadily at most schools, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander, African American, Native American, and white student enrollment declined at most schools.

For Asian Americans, the undergraduate student population has grown steadily over the past ten years at eight of the ten elite public and private schools studied here, with Princeton experiencing the largest growth. At Princeton, the Asian American student population grew by over 73% over ten years. Currently, at Harvard, Yale and Princeton collectively, about 1 of 5 students is Asian American.

At UCLA and UC Berkeley, however, the percentage of Asian American undergraduates on campus decreased from 38% to 29% and 40% to 35%, respectively. This decline cannot be attributed to race-conscious admission policies as the University of California has not included race or ethnicity in admissions decisions since 1996.

Other things to note:

Pacific Islander enrollment down.
However, I found that in the past five years, Native Hawaiian and Pacific Islander largely stagnated or decreased. Six of the ten schools examined here had declines in NH and PI enrollment, and half of the schools enrolled fewer than 10 NH or PI students. In 2015, none of the schools had more than 0.35% of its student body identify as NH or PI. Had NH and PI students not been separated from the larger Asian American population, these declines in enrollment would not have been apparent.

African-America enrollment down, despite perceptually being the focus of affirmative action.
Similarly, the percentage of Black students on campus has declined at ALL ten schools examined here with exception of Cornell, where African Americans are now about 6% of the student body. The steepest drops (about 3%) in African American student enrollment occurred at UNC Chapel Hill and the University of Michigan. The percentage of African American undergraduates at Harvard, Yale, and Princeton dropped by more than 1% since 2006.
 

ccbfan

Member
The only thing hurting your children is thinking any school not in the top 10 or whatever isn't a good school. That shows a profound lack of college planning, research, and understanding.

All I want is fairness in the admission process. My children shouldn't have do much better to get into an equivalent school because of their race.

Who are you to say my children shouldn't strive for the best and expect less becaus of there race. Are you gonna defend the wage gap next?
 
YUP. the quality of education is so much more even than people think it's crazy that anyone thinks just top school or bust esp, if they aren't wholly gifted and well rounded.

Like I said in my post, insecurity is a mother fucker.

I urge people to do their due diligence in looking up the history of US News & World Report college rankings and its methodology.
 
All I want is fairness in the admission process. My children shouldn't have do much better to get into an equivalent school because of their race.

Who are you to say my children shouldn't strive for the best and expect less becaus of there race. Are you gonna defend the wage gap next?

I mean, do the math. 40,000 applications. 2,000 spots at a given Ivy. Are you convinced your child is among the best 2,000 in the world? How do you know others haven't done better than yours? A GPA or test score isn't the full story. And having a higher one than another does not make your child a better student.

As for the second part, these have nothing to do with other. But I will say that again, you are highly mistaken. Yeah, the Ivies are great schools. But they're not the only great schools. They're not the only schools that will facilitate a highly successful student to jumpstart their career. So yeah, you thinking that only those Ivies and equivalent can be "the best" is deeply flawed.
 
From AAPI, a group that's focused purely on collecting data about the causes of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

http://aapidata.com/blog/asian-american-student-population-growth-at-ten-schools-from-2006-2015/





Other things to note:

Pacific Islander enrollment down.


African-America enrollment down, despite perceptually being the focus of affirmative action.

This is really interesting data, but I hope the study doesn't conflate enrollment with admissions.
 

Miletius

Member
This reeks of the administration needing a win for their base. There are enough moderates out there that support this kind of garbage "there are quotas" thinking that this has a reasonable chance of getting through.
 

Apt101

Member
From AAPI, a group that's focused purely on collecting data about the causes of Asian-Americans and Pacific Islanders.

http://aapidata.com/blog/asian-american-student-population-growth-at-ten-schools-from-2006-2015/





Other things to note:

Pacific Islander enrollment down.


African-America enrollment down, despite perceptually being the focus of affirmative action.

I figure that despite any kind of affirmative action, as the racial populations with the greatest number of elite students, proportionally, grows, it makes sense that their representation within elite universities would also increase. Anecdotally this could be observed way back when I was in college circa 2002, even at my middling alma mater. When I started there weren't many students who were, say, Indian or Taiwanese - but the few that were there were typically head and shoulders above the rest. By the time I left it was common to see them all over.
 
This is really interesting data, but I hope the study doesn't conflate enrollment with admissions.

The data is entirely about enrollment and student population using available data sets.

Note, I don't make any other takeaways from this data, as I haven't been to college in years and am largely out of my depth on the topic. I cede that ground to those more well-read or well-versed.
 

ccbfan

Member
I mean, do the math. 40,000 applications. 2,000 spots at a given Ivy. Are you convinced your child is among the best 2,000 in the world? How do you know others haven't done better than yours? A GPA or test score isn't the full story. And having a higher one than another does not make your child a better student.

As for the second part, these have nothing to do with other. But I will say that again, you are highly mistaken. Yeah, the Ivies are great schools. But they're not the only great schools. They're not the only schools that will facilitate a highly successful student to jumpstart their career. So yeah, you thinking that only those Ivies and equivalent can be "the best" is deeply flawed.

Nobody has ever explained these other metrics other than vague "blandness" and "well roundedness".

I've seen this charade before. In the 90s it was Asians study too hard and doesn't do extra curricular activities. So we do extra curricular activities. Then it was volunteer hours, so we volunteer. Now its fuck this shit let make up some vague ass terms and say shit like "we have our own personal metrics".
 
Nobody has ever explained these other metrics other than vague "blandness" and "well roundedness".

I've seen this charade before. In the 90s it was Asians study too hard and doesn't do extra curricular activities. So we do extra curricular activities. Then it was volunteer hours, so we volunteer. Now its fuck this shit let make up some vague ass terms and say shit like "we have our own personal metrics".
This is my third time quoting you so how about you go up and read my post.

You need to accept that applications have subjective aspects such as the interview and response to essay questions.
 

LionPride

Banned
Should be attacking the fact that an unprecedented amount of us are applying to schools and they honestly don't know how to deal with it

In one of my rejection letters, Rice was just like "Yo we don't know what the fuck is going on, too many coming in holy shit"

Like a school I applied to had 10,000 applicants and only accepted like 2000 and didn't know what was goin on

But I guess appeasing white fears that they kids ain't gettin in schools becauae of us darkies is something better
 

ccbfan

Member
Error of causative analysis. The government didn't take a spot from your kids. The government took a spot from a white guy and gave it to a black woman, and the prejudiced admissions team took a spot from your kids and gave it to that white guy so he wouldn't be left out.

I'll admit I laughed and probably would laugh more if it didn't have a little bit of truth in it.
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
IIRC, the lawsuit against the University of Michigan law school made assigning numerical scores to demographics illegal. So AA can't just be part of an algorithm.

Problem is that there's no regular auditing of the admissions process by the state, and schools will often cite confidentiality when asked for data. Sometimes they get audited, but it is hard to enforce, and thus generally ignored. (I think there are also some lawyer-y nuances about what constitutes an algorithm, what does it mean to be a "part" of an algorithm, etc, aka shit loopholes lawyers find)

There's the widely cited 2005 Princeton study where they ostensibly controlled for socio-economic and looked at it by race. (In related news, Princeton's rate of acceptance of Asian-American students started going up in 2006. That's a hell of a coincidence). But there hasn't been a comprehensive study in a while (specifically one that has access to internal data based on the number of applicants and such) - with the rise of Asian American population in the last decade, I'd be super curious as to how both admissions and enrollment has changed (public vs private, Cali vs all, regionally, etc).

But if scores weren't that close based on numbers, then maybe it was the numbers that didn't get the person to the next round. How would you expect admissions officers to filter through tens of thousands of applicants, all with 4.0s and 1500+ SAT/32+ ACTs, with 1000 spots to ultimately award? Something is going to give in the process.

That's kind of the point I'm trying to get at. The issue isn't the concept of AA, it's the implementation of it by universities. Universities, even like Harvard or Yale or whatnot, aren't going to read all that shit by hand. 99% of it is going to be automated. Add in that the universities are caring more about optics rather than outcomes (for instance, anyone check the college drop out rate by race? Kinda reminds me of the GOP and abortion. They love those babies when they are inside a womb, but they ain't gonna help them at all once they come out) and you get a situation where folks are getting put in no-win situations. Even as an Asian-American I am pretty hardcore in support of affirmative action in universities - I just really hate how it is implemented and done in such a way to look good rather than produce good outcomes for those it is intended to help. (AKA you can't just put them in college and leave 'em to swim on their own - give them the support they need)

And as it is often pointed out, holistic admissions were created to keep Jews out of Harvard. (https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2016/03/where-admissions-went-wrong/475575/)

Admissions officers also have little to nothing to do with the NCAA. Frequently, they're overruled when they don't want to admit an athlete, but then get calls from the athletics department wondering why their recruit wasn't admitted at first.

Sorry, that was just me taking a shot at the NCAA because fuck them and their hypocrisy. All they care about are the optics, and you see that mentality start to pervade the entire university (since generally the chancellors / board members of universities are their representatives in the NCAA).

As for lawsuits, there was also another one saying the girl was full of it and just wasn't as good of an applicant as she thought. Admissions is complicated. When you have very limited spots, and a ton of applicants, someone is going to get squeezed.

What I have seen in practice is people that are rich, have all of the resources, etc., completely discount schools if they're not in the "top 10 or 25" or whatever. They think those are their only options and will go after only those. Instead of understanding that there are probably dozens to hundreds of schools out there that are not as selective, but will have the program they are looking for with the resources available to help facilitate them to be highly successful for their career or graduate school. I see that every single day. And much more often than admissions officers using race as a major factor of admission.

Now I will admit there is a lack of nuanced reporting on the Asian continent. I know the College Board has done some good work in breaking down ethnic categories for Asian countries. School do need to catch up there for sure.

The Fisher lawsuit was laughable, no question. But as Asians become the fastest growing minority in the country, and are already over-represented in universities and in other areas - the divergence between the population increase by percentage and college admissions will start to stick out like a sore thumb. It's the danger in how we view a lot of metrics and assume that they should be broadly representative of society in general rather than understanding the data pool itself and biases built into the process.

Example of my last point: (h/t to MHWilliams)

For example, Asian-American student population went up 75% at Princeton between 2005 and 2016.

July 1 2004 population of asian americans - 12.1 million
2015 population of Asian-Americans - 21 million. (estimated 2016 population, 22 million)

Hey look...a 75% increase. Right in line where it should be.

But look at California, where it dropped. If it were not known that Cali was being race blind; the quick assumption would have been that the Cali schools were being discriminatory against Asians. That's where you have to be careful and understand the downstream data and look for the upstream effects it has. As for asians being grouped together in harmful ways to non Chinese / Indians, I think that's an understood issue but no one cares enough to deal with the racist effects of it.
 

akira28

Member
Elections matter. I'd like to thank all those progressives out there who were too principled to vote for the candidate on the ballot. Some of us will be feeling this more than others for a LONG time.

be more productive to go after moderates and Trump voters than it would be progressives who have gone so far over the hill that they won't vote for a Hillary-like.
 
Do they do a great job of discriminating against trans black men(who are paying outrageous tuition) and begging to the bigot in the white house?

They do a good job of taking student loan money from kids, who have no business being in College yet, and then screwing them the same way that oath in chief did with Trump U.

Is any of that any different than what happens at PWIs? You know why those presidents were at the White House asking for more money, because when states cut the education budgets the HBCUs get the short end of the stick as they don't have the endowments or wealthy alumni base of PWIs.

Great job on singling out the negatives and leaving behind the huge positive influence these schools have on kids lives. Is the transgender issue a problem with every HBCU or are you using Morehouse as an opportunity to grandstand, pretty sure it's the latter. No mention of the impact their medical school has had in our community along with other schools like Howard. No mention of FAMU and Xavier pharmacy schools. What's your opinion on the number of engineers NC A&T puts out. Seems like that's all progressives are good for now, throwing out babies with the bath water.
 

ccbfan

Member
This is my third time quoting you so how about you go up and read my post.

You need to accept that applications have subjective aspects such as the interview and response to essay questions.

I don't think you understand implying.

If one racial group overwhelming need better publicly measurable scores than other racial groups including the privileged majority group. You don't think something is wrong? And saying the reason is a certain vague aspect is the reason is implying this racial group is lacking in a certain aspect.

Takes this example (abet this situation is much worse for the racial group than aa) black people overwhelming gets punished for drug offenses than white people. The real answer is racist legal system but if someone said. "Nah it's fair there was probably come other issue like compliance". Even though that person didn't directly say black people don't comply to police he or she sure as hell implied it.
 
All I want is fairness in the admission process. My children shouldn't have do much better to get into an equivalent school because of their race.

Who are you to say my children shouldn't strive for the best and expect less becaus of there race. Are you gonna defend the wage gap next?

How about acknowledging that its the deep rooted white supremacy at work instead of taking swipes at a black poster and trying to make him and AA the enemy
 
The data is entirely about enrollment and student population using available data sets.

Note, I don't make any other takeaways from this data, as I haven't been to college in years and am largely out of my depth on the topic. I cede that ground to those more well-read or well-versed.

That's what I'm getting at right? I think it's evidence that AA hasn't led to its desired outcome from a policy point of view, but it doesn't offer much insight into how applicants are actually affected by the policy in the admissions process.

Enrollment is affected by 3 separate but correlated factors: the applicant pool, the admissions criteria, and matriculation dynamics, and AA only affects one of them.
 
How about acknowledging that its the deep rooted white supremacy at work instead of taking swipes at a black poster and trying to make him and AA the enemy

I think ccbfan's issues was the implication that Darfyl M R was suggesting that it was purely subjective and nothing insidious at work.
 

[boots]

Member
I think AA can be biased against Asian American applicants and still be a necessary policy.

Both things can be true at the same time

What?

So you're taking the roundabout route to say it's okay to be biased against a minority group as long as they're Asian.

Liberals forcing Asians to take one for the team as always.
 
[boots];245159247 said:
What?

So you're taking the roundabout route to say it's okay to be biased against a minority group as long as they're Asian.

Liberals forcing Asians to take one for the team as always.

the "can" in that sentence means "has the potiential to be" not "is allowed to be"
 
I think the ccbfan's issues was the implication the other poster was suggesting that it was purely subjective and nothing insidious at work.

Maybe not the impression I got but maybe.

That said the focus somehow is on AA when it should be on white supremacy as laid out by pigeon.
 

matthewuk

Member
Been from out side the US. I have one question. How long have we got before the GOP go full Nazi and start sending warships to "liberate" us? Just so I know when to start packing.
 
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