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Does the Performance mode in Rachet and Clank validate the scalability argument of the Series-S?

N

NoMoChokeSJ

Banned
I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?
 
BlueXImpulse

BlueXImpulse

Banned
R&C is dynamic 4K because they chose to push the graphics forward while putting resolution second. They could gave got a solid 4K by not putting as much into the graphics but even if you gave them more power it could still be dynamic 4K because Sony studios will always push graphics before resolution.
 
Dr Bass

Dr Bass

Member
I kinda think no in a way. If the PS5 is doing games at 1440 to increase graphical fidelity otherwise, what does that mean for XSX? Potentially nothing but does XSX require 4K native output? If so that means no Xbox games will “look as good” as a PS5 game that can output at 1440 because the horsepower just isn’t there to make up for that res difference. But if the XSX does drop to 1440 for better graphics, what does that mean for the XSS?

Maybe MS should have only done the X ...
 
N

NoMoChokeSJ

Banned
Orky said:
Exactly. It’s extremely important though that you still have an SSD and a good CPU.

If the Series S would ship with Jaguar CPU or HDD it would not be possible.
But otherwise it’s really easy to scale for a GPU, just lower the res.
Click to expand...
To me it seems like the inclusion of Performance mode on a "next gen" game shows that a games can be scaled to consoles with similar architecture. I know the PS4 Pro isn't the same architecture, Sony just doesn't have a Series-S type console.
 
N

NoMoChokeSJ

Banned
Dr Bass said:
I kinda think no in a way. If the PS5 is doing games at 1440 to increase graphical fidelity otherwise, what does that mean for XSX? Potentially nothing but does XSX require 4K native output? If so that means no Xbox games will “look as good” as a PS5 game that can output at 1440 because the horsepower just isn’t there to make up for that res difference. But if the XSX does drop to 1440 for better graphics, what does that mean for the XSS?

Maybe MS should have only done the X ...
Click to expand...
I guess it would depend on why they need to start off at a lower resolution. If there are demanding graphic enhancements such as Ray tracing that may be left out in Performance modes then that 1440P may not be the necessary starting resolution for the same fidelity. For example if Demons Soul truly runs at 1440P for 60fps, what would it require for 30fps and no ray tracing? Essentially that is what R&C and Spiderman are both doing, except to increase frame rate. Think about it R&C goes to dynamic resolution, drops ray tracing, and can double it's FPS? How much power does it take to stay 30 fps comparatively?
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
NoMoChokeSJ said:
This makes no sense when performance modes are essentially doing this very thing. We've already seen this same thing this generation with the PS4 Pro and the One-X. The bigger difference is the more drastic drop in resolution.
Click to expand...
Performance mode are optimization for the same hardware... not scaling.
You can call it different optimization profiles for the same hardware if you wish.
 
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nordique

nordique

Member
sorry in advance for the stupidity to some but I’m not very knowledgeable about this:

does the cpu of series s more or less being the same as ps5/series x matter or mean anything? Won’t that help with performance or ports
 
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DavidGzz

DavidGzz

Member
I'm hoping that DF will provide us with the answers. Once it's proven that the Series S is just a 1080p version of the X, I will get one as my secondary portable little console. If not, I will ignore it.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Same console asked to use its power for a game in two different ways vs two consoles with different HW, one much more powerful and balanced than the other, and the game being developed to run on both.

Performance mode for that title is still accessing PS5’s peak power, but just using it differently. Series S has less power period.
 
Neo_game

Neo_game

Member
NoMoChokeSJ said:
I was just thinking that the new R&C game is including a performance mode in it to improve FPS. We know that it does so by sacrificing resolution and potentially some graphical effects. This makes me wonder that if dropping down to 4K dynamic in order to get 60 FPS, what kind of power does it take to get to 1440p/60 or 1440p/30? Are we talking PS Pro level of power, sans the SSD? If so does the inclusion of Performance modes in these games show the validity in the claims of scalability for the Series-S? If not, how is the scalability for Performance mode any different than what MS claims can be achieved on its 1440P console?
Click to expand...

If SS can do say 1440P 60fps. Then PS5 and SX should be able to do 4K 60fps. But if PS5 or SX are doing 1440P then SS will do at 900-1080P. For example Unreal5 engine was 1440P on PS5 and minecraft RT demo was 1080P on SX. It would be nice if Microsoft had show the same minecraft demo on SS but for obvious reason they din't because it would be probably be running at 720P I think
 
A

AllyITA

Member
XBone S and XBone X do the same thing, one has more GPU power and gets higher res/framerate, the other just drops everything it can to keep up.

same thing for ps4/ps4pro
 
Riky

Riky

$MSFT
I think the Series S will be a 1440p machine cross gen before settling to 1080p as time goes on, fine for my bedroom 1080p TV as a secondary console at £249.

The Digital Foundry 4tflop piece has great results at 1080p and it's very obvious that MS gave them all the info for that video now we know they saw Series S back in March.
 
CrysisFreak

CrysisFreak

Banned
Dolomite said:
Gaf will say no
Rational thinkers will say of course, and I told you so
Click to expand...
neckbeard.jpg
 
fran.fernandez

fran.fernandez

Member
Lower the res do not scale the gpu in some cases. Is per game basis.

Simple terms, lower res means less fragments and pixel calculations. But if you are sampling big textures, multi Tex or many interpolations scaling down won’t solve all issues (smaller textures and multi compile).

your bottleneck could be vertex count. Scaling down won’t work, need some lods.

or you can have expensive shaders that do vat or fancy stuff in the vertex pass. Again scaling down won’t do anything, lods or removing vertex data.

then you have compute shaders, geometric shader, here some tool for scaling down.

there’s many issues. Would be nice if scaling res solve all but the devs would have to create games thinking about how much in vertex how much in fragment, how to balance when scaling down.
 
F

fybyfyby

Member
Scaling is not a problem, especially for microsoft under directx. XSS GPU is 3X less powerful than XSX one. If XSX is aimed at 4K, XSS is aimed at sub 1440p (if you take pixel count as a rule).
But its not only about resolution. RT will be worse too (less CUs).

It can be like buying cheaper gpu and turn res down. But as someone wrote already, there can be also some optimalization of engine for XSS.

I also think PC players can benefit from that more. Because Ryzen + RDNA 2 can become common combination due to game engine optimizations.
 
geordiemp

geordiemp

Member
fybyfyby said:
Scaling is not a problem, especially for microsoft under directx. XSS GPU is 3X less powerful than XSX one. If XSX is aimed at 4K, XSS is aimed at sub 1440p (if you take pixel count as a rule).
But its not only about resolution. RT will be worse too (less CUs).

It can be like buying cheaper gpu and turn res down. But as someone wrote already, there can be also some optimalization of engine for XSS.

I also think PC players can benefit from that more. Because Ryzen + RDNA 2 can become common combination due to game engine optimizations.
Click to expand...

Agree scaling is not a problem for most games.

Using R&C is a strange example, as any ray tracing and high effects can cost much more than just resolution.

Lowering effects and resolution anything can be scaled with work.
 
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G

Goncas2

Member
It doesn't validate anything about the significant decrease in the amount of memory, the one thing that most people are worried about.
 
LOLCats

LOLCats

Banned
honestly i see the S as a low end PC and the X and ps5 as mid range PCs.

the S is not for me, but it will run most of the same games at lower settings.

not a big deal... we're not the target market..

so games having more customizable options is good and logical, just like a PC...
 
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existensmaximum

existensmaximum

Member
Does the Series S and Series X have the exact same hardware architecture, IO solution/speed and SSD speed? (I have no clue)

That will be important to answer the question.
 
MastaKiiLA

MastaKiiLA

Member
BlueXImpulse said:
R&C is dynamic 4K because they chose to push the graphics forward while putting resolution second. They could gave got a solid 4K by not putting as much into the graphics but even if you gave them more power it could still be dynamic 4K because Sony studios will always push graphics before resolution.
Click to expand...
This is pretty much it, IMO. If there's dynamic 4k being deployed, it's because it allows them to add more effects. It's not like R&C has to scale to different hardware. That hasn't been suggested yet, so both fidelity and performance mode should theoretically be extracting the maximum from the 1 hardware profile that has to be supported. The complaints about the XSS (which I have no opinion of) are based on forcing game developers to support 2 or more hardware profiles, that are at different levels of performance. This is similar to what gamers have said about multiplatformers for years. Supporting different hardware means that no one system gets fully optimized, as there are finite development resources available.

The PS5 and PS5DE are the same system. They just have different peripheral configurations. XSX and XSS are 2 systems with different specifications. It's essentially a single manufacturer multiplatform situation. I don't really see that as a problem, but it means that even once you get beyond the cross-gen transition period, you're still supporting multiple hardware profiles in 1 ecosystem, while the PS ecosystem will be limited to the PS5 chipset alone. In theory, it gives PS5 exclusives a better chance to maximize the hardware. Make of that what you will.
 
CeeJay

CeeJay

Member
Physiognomonics said:
No. On PS5 both modes will have the same assets because ram size is the same. The main problem of scalability on XSS is the reduced ram size.
Click to expand...
That's why it will also have reduced asset sizes in games and also why the SSD size is scaled down as well. Where is the problem again?
 
O

On Demand

Banned
Are you serious? What does having a performance mode have to do with the XSS? Mods have to cut down on these trolls threads.
 
vaibhavpisal

vaibhavpisal

Member
Scaling is obviously the idea behind series s. So it must be valid. MS wouldn't make a console otherwise.

It just needs a lot of work to optimise. Just as much as series x would require. Its not going to be as easy as sliding a few settings in pc game's graphics options.

Will series s hold back any game from design standpoint? Doubt it as it has same architecture and SSD bandwidth as series x. Beyond this you would have to ask actual game developers some 5 years down the line if anything was held back by series s. Right now even they don't know due to lack of actual experience of developing on both hardware at same time.
 
N

NoMoChokeSJ

Banned
geordiemp said:
Agree scaling is not a problem for most games.

Using R&C is a strange example, as any ray tracing and high effects can cost much more than just resolution.

Lowering effects and resolution anything can be scaled with work.
Click to expand...
It's less about R&C the game and more about the inclusion of a performance mode within the game. If performance modes not only reduce resolution, but also remove some of the more advanced effects, such as Ray tracing, why is the idea of scalability such a negative for some (outside of warring)? Couldn't one argue that performance modes hold games back because the developer is making the game to the lowest common denominator (lower resolution, less effects)? Or does it add validity to the argument MS makes about the ability of the S? The inclusion of performance modes on the competing platform seem to counter the argument that the s will hold back development because game like R&C or Spiderman are doing exactly was MS is saying will happen with the S. Decreasing resolution and maybe reducing more advanced graphical effects in order to perform with less demand on the system.
 
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