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[Gaiff]

Don't know where to post this so here it goes

Not in a PS5 Pro thread, that’s for sure.

Here

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

Don't know where to post this so here it goes

Thanks, I guess. But I can confirm that this is probably the last place to have posted that.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Don't know where to post this so here it goes

Someone started a thread with these leaked pics, its floating around here somewhere

Its a very odd thing for MS to come out with as anyone who wanted a white one could have bought a skin for theirs.

Don't know anything about it though as have seen some suggest it might be up to $100 cheaper than the black launch one.

I wont hear anything for quite awhile so can't ask anyone if there are any other differences about this unit, opening day Baseball has me in Cincinnati first few days and then in St Louis for their home opener April 4th

 

[Insane Metal]

I just now saw that thread, sorry.

 

[Imtjnotu]

I just now saw that thread, sorry.

 

[nosoynadie22]

How much hate do you think Sony would receive if after the launch of the PS5 Pro they replaced the current PS5 Amateur with a new 36 CU RDNA3.5 model compatible with PSSR and marginal improvements in RT for the same price?

Personally, I'd like to see this in 2025, but it might hurt some people's feelings. If it were significantly smaller and cost $400 with a disk drive included it would be great.

 

[Bojji]

I dont know if i agree. I think native 4k 30 fps with good AA looks better than even DLSS quality let alone performance which is way softer in comparison.

I like DLSS but its no substitute for native 4k rendering. In motion or while standing still.

4k doesn't look good at 30fps, that's my point - maybe games with fixed camera angles are ok with that but not much else.

If taken literally (which we shouldn't) but to keep things simple. It means, For game X.

- PS5 fidelity mode, 4K@30fps = PS5pro fidelity mode, 4K@44fps.
- PS5 performance mode, 1080p@60fps = PS5pro performance mode, 1080p@87fps.

But thats a very basic way of describing it. But that should give you a general idea. So what a PS5pro would do?

- PS5pro Fidelity mode, 1296p-1440p + PSSR>4K@60fps (should get you something that looks close to, similar or even better than the base PS5 fidelity mode)
- PS5pro performance mode, 720p-900p + PSSR>1440p@80fps+/unlocked.

It varies from game to game, but one thing for certain is that you are getting a better-performing game overall that doesn't have to make the kinda cuts they currently do to get 60fps modes running.


Isnt that supposed to be the other way around? Will look good or even better in still shots, but in motion artifacts may start becoming apparent. Unless you are talking about in motion as in having higher framerates.

Yep, that's what I was talking about. DLSS also has very good stability in motion, massive difference compared to FSR.

Everything depends on quality of PSSR, I'm happy with performance DLSS so it's like that I will be happy with 1080p 60FPS games on Pro.

 

[paolo11]

1440p(native rest)@60 FPS using PSSR to upscale to 1800p/4K will most likely look better than Fidelity Mode 1800p@30 FPS.

For real???

If this is true, I want to buy it now. I thank thee for this info. My apologies if I ask because I’m not good at tech

I do hope they patch those games I want (final fantasy 7 r and 16). It’s Sony exclusive at the moment and I pray they communicate together.

 

[MisterXDTV]

How much hate do you think Sony would receive if after the launch of the PS5 Pro they replaced the current PS5 Amateur with a new 36 CU RDNA3.5 model compatible with PSSR and marginal improvements in RT for the same price?

Personally, I'd like to see this in 2025, but it might hurt some people's feelings. If it were significantly smaller and cost $400 with a disk drive included it would be great.

0% chance they leave the customer base behind like that We are talking about 60 million at that point.

If you want an upgrade, you have to get the Pro

 

[Lysandros]

CUs have being re-designed for it according to Kepler.

Do you happen to know in which way(s) specifically?

I would imagine the new double rate fp 32 capable CUs with enhanced RT thoughtput would be even hungrier for inner GPU bandwidth. 15 CUs per Shader Array fighting for 128 Kbs of L1 cache would be a bloodbath compared to PS5's 9 CUs.The efficiency loss in real world compute thoughput could be significant not to mention additional pressure from "128" ROPs. Then there is the side of the pure rasterization throughput which is tied to the number of prim units and rasterizers which are in turn tied to mumber of shader engines of course...

One way to remediate (at least to some degree) could be to increase GPU L1 cache to 256 Kbs per array like high end RDNA3 parts, but i don't know how practical it is considering APU die area and/or price implications.

In the end i can't say that i have the utmost enthusiasm for PS5 PRO for it being a mid generation upgrade but in the same i still hope it is a 3 SE/54 CUs setup. I really dislike inefficient and wasteful designs.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Do you happen to know in which way(s) specifically?

I would imagine the new double rate fp 32 capable CUs with enhanced RT thoughtput would be even hungrier for inner GPU bandwidth. 15 CUs per Shader Array fighting for 128 Kbs of L1 cache would be a bloodbath compared to PS5's 9 CUs.The efficiency loss in real world compute thoughput could be significant not to mention additional pressure from "128" ROPs. Then there is the side of the pure rasterization throughput which is tide to the number of prim units and rasterizers which are in turn tied to mumber of shader engines of course...

One way to remediate (at least to some degree) could be to increase GPU L1 cache to 256 Kbs per array like high end RDNA3 parts, but i don't know how practical it is considering APU die area and/or price implications.

In the end i can't say that i have the utmost enthusiasm for PS5 PRO for it being a mid generation upgrade but in the same i still hope it is a 3 SE/54 CUs setup. I really dislike inefficient and wasteful designs.

No. Just Kepler's tweet that the whole SA has being re-architectured to account for the added CUs. Like you said they likely added some cache. I wouldn't worry about that. And the 2 SE setup has plenty of advantages: smaller APU, faster clocks, cheaper, compatibility with PS4/PS5 engines so it'll be actually be more efficient for PS5 games etc.

Like PS5 5700XT GPU that was very efficient for games, this will be the prototype of the first RDNA4 GPU. It will be efficient for gaming + RT loads. I really wouldn't worry.

 

[Loxus]

No. Just Kepler's tweet that the whole SA has being re-architectured to account for the added CUs. Like you said they likely added some cache. I wouldn't worry about that. And the 2 SE setup has plenty of advantages: smaller APU, faster clocks, cheaper, compatibility with PS4/PS5 engines so it'll be actually be more efficient for PS5 games etc.

Like PS5 5700XT GPU that was very efficient for games, this will be the prototype of the first RDNA4 GPU. It will be efficient for gaming + RT loads. I really wouldn't worry.

If this thing has 2 SE, it's a possibility it's still the same RDNA1 but will have upgraded RT, dual-issue the old SIMD32 and add AI Accelerators.

Using the same core architecture and then just adding 12 more WGPs maybe the route Sony takes.

BC could play a role in the same way for the GPU as the CPU.

I find it crazy that jumping two gens in GPU architecture doesn't break BC and isn't considered a different console generation but it's a problem for the CPU.

 

[Lysandros]

No. Just Kepler's tweet that the whole SA has being re-architectured to account for the added CUs. Like you said they likely added some cache. I wouldn't worry about that. And the 2 SE setup has plenty of advantages: smaller APU, faster clocks, cheaper, compatibility with PS4/PS5 engines so it'll be actually be more efficient for PS5 games etc.

Like PS5 5700XT GPU that was very efficient for games, this will be the prototype of the first RDNA4 GPU. It will be efficient for gaming + RT loads. I really wouldn't worry.

Well, there are multiple aspects to consider like you said. You seem to be on the optimistic side, all good.

I can't say that i quite agree on PS5 having a RDNA1 GPU/RX 5700XT in it though, just to note. The layout is similar, but there are differences.

 

[Loxus]

Well, there are multiple aspects to consider like you said. You seem to be on the optimistic side, all good.

I can't say that i quite agree on PS5 having a RDNA1 GPU/RX 5700XT in it though, just to note. The layout is similar, but there are differences.

It's more like the 5700XT uses the PS5 layout, as the PS5 was developed before it.

PS5 GFX: 1000/1001 (without RT)
5700XT GFX: 1010
Then it was revised to GFX: 1013/1014 (with RT)

 

[Lysandros]

It's more like the 5700XT uses the PS5 layout, as the PS5 was developed before it.

PS5 GFX: 1000/1001 (without RT)
5700XT GFX: 1010
Then it was revised to GFX: 1013/1014 (with RT)

I see, thanks. PS5 we have is GFX 1013/14 then not GFX 1000/1001. So GFX 1000≠GFX 1010≠GFX 1013/14. Nothing contradicting PS5' "Custom RDNA2 based architecture" from Cerny's Road to PS5 presentation right?..

 

[Loxus]

I see, thanks. PS5 we have is GFX 1013/14 then not GFX 1000/1001. So GFX 1000≠GFX 1010≠GFX 1013/14. Nothing contradicting PS5' "Custom RDNA2 based architecture" from Cerny's Road to PS5 presentation right?..

Despite all the changes. In my opinion, RDNA2 is just a refresh.
This video kinda proves my point.
5700xt vs 6700xt is basically the same card.


PS5's major revision matches RDNA2 being a refresh.

RDNA2 is still within the 10xx numbers.
While,
RDNA3 GFX: 1100
RDNA4 GFX: 1200

 

[shamoomoo]

If this thing has 2 SE, it's a possibility it's still the same RDNA1 but will have upgraded RT, dual-issue the old SIMD32 and add AI Accelerators.

Using the same core architecture and then just adding 12 more WGPs maybe the route Sony takes.

BC could play a role in the same way for the GPU as the CPU.

I find it crazy that jumping two gens in GPU architecture doesn't break BC and isn't considered a different console generation but it's a problem for the CPU.

If I'm reading right,all the stuff in RDNA2 existed in 1 except RT and basically wasn't enabled to the same degree as RDNA2.

I going to look into,but wonder if the dual- issue of RDNA3 is an evolution of raping packed math.

 

[Mr.Phoenix]

I going to look into,but wonder if the dual- issue of RDNA3 is an evolution of raping packed math.

I would think so, with the only difference being that RPM did its thing for fp8 workloads and Dual issue is attempting to do it for fp32 workloads. And likely with better support for it on the compiler side of things.

 

[Lysandros]

If I'm reading right,all the stuff in RDNA2 existed in 1 except RT and basically wasn't enabled to the same degree as RDNA2.

I going to look into,but wonder if the dual- issue of RDNA3 is an evolution of raping packed math.

Comparing PC side, geometry (rasterizer/prim units) blocks and ROPs are all different architecturally between RDNA1 and RDNA2. And the CUs (RT intersection engines), +infinity cache. I personally think the differences are noticeable and important enough.

 

[Loxus]

If I'm reading right,all the stuff in RDNA2 existed in 1 except RT and basically wasn't enabled to the same degree as RDNA2.

Most stuff matched RDNA 1.1, except for VRS, RT and Infinity Cache. RDNA 1 has some features missing from 1.1 as well.

It's basically what Mark Cerny said in Road to PS5. AMD is continuously revising their tech, but Sony has their own needs. As to say some features wasn't needed in the PS5.

"First we have a custom AMD GPU based on there "RDNA2" technology. What does that mean, AMD is continuously improving and revising their tech for RDNA2. Their goals were roughly speaking, to reduce power consumption by re-architecting the GPU to put data close to where it's needed. To optimize the GPU for performance and to add new, more advanced feature set."

"But that feature set is malleable, which is to say that we have our own needs for PlayStation, and that can factor into what the AMD roadmap becomes."

 

[Loxus]

It's good seeing you guys apply logic into the leaks.

 

[SonGoku]

Do you happen to know in which way(s) specifically?

I would imagine the new double rate fp 32 capable CUs with enhanced RT thoughtput would be even hungrier for inner GPU bandwidth. 15 CUs per Shader Array fighting for 128 Kbs of L1 cache would be a bloodbath compared to PS5's 9 CUs.The efficiency loss in real world compute thoughput could be significant not to mention additional pressure from "128" ROPs. Then there is the side of the pure rasterization throughput which is tide to the number of prim units and rasterizers which are in turn tied to mumber of shader engines of course...

One way to remediate (at least to some degree) could be to increase GPU L1 cache to 256 Kbs per array like high end RDNA3 parts, but i don't know how practical it is considering APU die area and/or price implications.

In the end i can't say that i have the utmost enthusiasm for PS5 PRO for it being a mid generation upgrade but in the same i still hope it is a 3 SE/54 CUs setup. I really dislike inefficient and wasteful designs.

Exactly, if anything the Shader Engines/SA should be redesigned to be beefier (Caches, ROPs, Geometry processors, rasterizers etc) to support more CU units that also happen to be more complex.

 

[Lysandros]

Exactly, if anything the Shader Engines/SA should be redesigned to be beefier (Caches, ROPs, Geometry processors etc) to support more CU units that also happen to be more complex.

The thing with the ROPs is a big chunk of their potential (fill rate) would be wasted with either designs with the shared 576 GB/s of RAM bandwidth reminiscent of the PS4 PRO situation. Even with PS5 i consider the 448 GB/s pool to be systems' weakest link. Now add in 33 Tflops of highly theoretical compute peak to the picture, to make even decent use of this potential you would need additional bandwidth. I am really curious about plausible consumption improvements, otherwise the bandwidth isn't quite there to make optimal use of this GPU. May be a pool of infinity cache but this can be problematic as to APU die area. I mean if this 45% figure is accurate, the system doesn't exactly scream efficency.

 

[Physiognomonics]

The thing with the ROPs is a big chunk of their potential (fill rate) would be wasted with either designs with the shared 576 GB/s of RAM bandwidth reminiscent of the PS4 PRO situation. Even with PS5 i consider the 448 GB/s pool to be systems' weakest link. Now add in 33 Tflops of highly theoretical compute peak to the picture, to make even decent use of this potential you would need additional bandwidth. I am really curious about plausible consumption improvements, otherwise the bandwidth isn't quite there to make optimal use of this GPU. May be a pool of infinity cache but this can be problematic as to APU die area. I mean if this 45% figure is accurate, the system doesn't exactly scream efficency.

They talked about improvement of memory bandwidth on top of faster GDDR6. I'd say RDNA3.5 - 4 is probably more efficient in that area. Besides it shows more Tflops would be useless with that memory bandwdith. This is one of the error they did with PS4 Pro.

 

[Lysandros]

They talked about improvement of memory bandwidth on top of faster GDDR6. I'd say RDNA3.5 - 4 is probably more efficient in that area. Besides it shows more Tflops would be useless with that memory bandwdith. This is one of the error they did with PS4 Pro.

I agree wholeheartedly that the focus should be maximising per component efficiency instead of inflating theoretical ceilings. Yes, they did quite a few mistakes with PS4 PRO's design and i would not like to see them repeated on PS5 PRO by turning their back to efficiency focused PS5. That is why i am curious about the details of architectural gains to see if they are up to task adress the points mentioned above in the matter of real world performance.

 

[Loxus]

While reading up on the differences between the PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU.

TechPowerUp has the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture as GCN 2.0. Same a PS4 GPU.

I thought the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture was GCN 4.0?

 

[MisterXDTV]

While reading up on the differences between the PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU.

TechPowerUp has the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture as GCN 2.0. Same a PS4 GPU.

I thought the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture was GCN 4.0?

Yeah PS4 Pro is based on AMD Polaris that is GCN 4.0

As far as I remember it had features that went even beyond that (GCN 5.0 AKA Vega)

 

[Lysandros]

While reading up on the differences between the PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU.

TechPowerUp has the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture as GCN 2.0. Same a PS4 GPU.

I thought the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture was GCN 4.0?

Yes PS4 PRO is based on Polaris which is GCN 4 with some Vega features which is GCN 5. They also have the ROP number and pixel fillrate figures wrong by the way, PS4 PRO had 64 ROPs, not 32.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Timestamped here (4K video)

 

[T-Cake]

Is that above video in 4K HDR? It might be worth watching again to see the HDR demos properly. Otherwise, bum.

 

[shamoomoo]

While reading up on the differences between the PS4 and PS4 Pro GPU.

TechPowerUp has the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture as GCN 2.0. Same a PS4 GPU.

I thought the PS4 Pro's GPU architecture was GCN 4.0?

Whoever runs the site didn't correct the amount of ROPs the Pro has as it still lost the amount as 32. Curse you Lysandro,JK.

 

[Crayon]

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

Sitting here thinking whether 5-600 for thing thing is worth it then I go on random ebay tears racking up hundreds on retro games. :<

I usually don't have buyer's remorse but rn it's hitting me a bit.

Just venting. Maybe confessing.

 

[Lysandros]

Whoever runs the site didn't correct the amount of ROPs the Pro has as it still lost the amount as 32. Curse you Lysandro,JK.

Well, they got the name correct at least, that is 'PS4 PRO GPU' indeed.

 

[MisterXDTV]

Is that above video in 4K HDR? It might be worth watching again to see the HDR demos properly. Otherwise, bum.

I don't think you could upload in HDR on YouTube in late 2016, so I doubt it

 

[SKYF@ll]

According to documents sent to Insider Gaming, this is possible because of faster RAM (28% faster) and a faster GPU that is 67% larger than the standard console (45% faster) – You can read more PS5 Pro specs here. Playstation says these combined make the Pro 45% faster than the standard PlayStation 5 and can provide twice the rendering speed of the standard console.
https://insider-gaming.com/ps5-pro-enhanced-details/

 

[jm89]

EXCLUSIVE - PS5 Pro Enhanced Requirements Detailed

Insider Gaming has learned of the developer requirements that need to be met to have the 'PS5 Pro Enhanced' label.

insider-gaming.com

With the soon-to-be-announced PS5 Pro expected to hit shelves later this year, Insider Gaming has learned of the developer requirements that need to be met to have the ‘PS5 Pro Enhanced’ label. Internally, this is currently called the ‘Trinity Enhanced’ label, but for the sake of SEO, we’ll be referring to it as ‘PS5 Pro Enhanced’ moving forward.

The ‘Enhanced’ label first made its introduction into the PlayStation ecosystem following the release of the PlayStation 4 Pro, which meant that the game utilized the Pro console’s improved hardware to offer improved frame rates and resolutions. For the PS5 Pro PlayStation wants games to offer a PS5 Pro-exclusive graphics mode that will combine:

• PSSR to upscale resolution to 4K
• A constant 60FPS
• Add or increase ray tracing effects

According to documents sent to Insider Gaming, this is possible because of faster RAM (28% faster) and a faster GPU that is 67% larger than the standard console (45% faster) – You can read more PS5 Pro specs here. Playstation says these combined make the Pro 45% faster than the standard PlayStation 5 and can provide twice the rendering speed of the standard console.

PlayStation goes on to continue that games may also be given the ‘PS5 Pro Enhanced’ label if they offer any of the following enhancements:

• Increased target resolution for titles that run a fixed resolution on the standard console
• Increased target maximum resolution for titles that run at variable resolution on the standard console
• Increased target frame rate for titles that target a fixed frame rate on the standard console
• Inclusion of PS5 Pro Raytracing effects

 

[Physiognomonics]

EXCLUSIVE - PS5 Pro Enhanced Requirements Detailed

Insider Gaming has learned of the developer requirements that need to be met to have the 'PS5 Pro Enhanced' label.

insider-gaming.com

Wait, 45% because it's the average of 28% faster memory and 67% faster Tflops (using single issue)? They really don't know how faster it really is, do they?

Why is this here? and again, this is wrong. Pro CPU won't dictate if the game runs at 60fps. What are they afraid at?

For high-demanding games like GTA 6, tech expert and Digital Foundry founder Richard Leadbetter has said that people shouldn’t expect GTA 6 to run at 60FPS on the PS5 Pro. Leadbetter’s analysis is primarily based on the Pro’s CPU

 

[paolo11]

I wish they announced it very soon.

 

[Snake29]

Wait, 45% because it's the average of 28% faster memory and 67% faster Tflops (using single issue)? They really don't know how faster it really is, do they?

Why is this here? and again, this is wrong. Pro CPU won't dictate if the game runs at 60fps. What are they afraid at?

I just want to see Leadbetter being wrong, that would be hillarious.

 

[Loxus]

Playstation says these combined make the Pro 45% faster than the standard PlayStation 5 and can provide twice the rendering speed of the standard console.

This part has me confused, because earlier he said this.

• Rendering 45% faster than PS5

So how can it have twice the rendering speed and have 45% faster rendering at the same time?

 

[SKYF@ll]

PS5 and XSX often caused frame drops due to bandwidth limitations when using a lot of alpha effects.
The synergistic effect of PS5Pro's efficient access and 28% increase in bandwidth + 45% faster GPU speed may result in (up to) twice the frame rate.
PS5 shares 448GB/s of memory bandwidth between the CPU, GPU, and Tempest 3D Audio Engine(can use over 20GB/s).

 

[NeonGhost]

I wish they announced it very soon.

Won’t get announced till September

 

[Gaiff]

Playstation says these combined make the Pro 45% faster than the standard PlayStation 5 and can provide twice the rendering speed of the standard console.

This part has me confused, because earlier he said this.

• Rendering 45% faster than PS5

So how can it have twice the rendering speed and have 45% faster rendering at the same time?

Where does this come from?

 

[Loxus]

Where does this come from?

From two of Tom Henderson's PS5 Pro articles.

 

[Loxus]

PS5 and XSX often caused frame drops due to bandwidth limitations when using a lot of alpha effects.
The synergistic effect of PS5Pro's efficient access and 28% increase in bandwidth + 45% faster GPU speed may result in (up to) twice the frame rate.
PS5 shares 448GB/s of memory bandwidth between the CPU, GPU, and Tempest 3D Audio Engine(can use over 20GB/s).

That explains it.

 

[Gaiff]

That explains it.

It certainly explains parts of it. Alpha effects are heavily dependent on the ROPs which scale with clock speed. Not sure how many ROPs the Pro will have (I hear 96?) that’s a 50% increase over the base model already. In scenes under heavy strain from alpha effects, the Pro could have a much larger advantage than 45%.

 

[playsaves3]

It certainly explains parts of it. Alpha effects are heavily dependent on the ROPs which scale with clock speed. Not sure how many ROPs the Pro will have (I hear 96?) that’s a 50% increase over the base model already. In scenes under heavy strain from alpha effects, the Pro could have a much larger advantage than 45%.

I honestly think some of these specs seem slightly off it makes more sense for the figure to be the 67% faster I frequently heard maybe the 45% is an absolute worst case scenario

 

[nosoynadie22]

[]

 

[Physiognomonics]

PS5 and XSX often caused frame drops due to bandwidth limitations when using a lot of alpha effects.
The synergistic effect of PS5Pro's efficient access and 28% increase in bandwidth + 45% faster GPU speed may result in (up to) twice the frame rate.
PS5 shares 448GB/s of memory bandwidth between the CPU, GPU, and Tempest 3D Audio Engine(can use over 20GB/s).

I remember the PS2 being a monster at this in games like MGS2 or Jak & Daxter. But the bandwidth the PS2 vram had was frankenstein (and textures resolution was usually quite bad due to low amount of it). Overall it was not a good design and Dreamcast / Xbox had a better hardware balance.

 

[Gaiff]

I honestly think some of these specs seem slightly off it makes more sense for the figure to be the 67% faster I frequently heard maybe the 45% is an absolute worst case scenario

I think by 45% faster rendering, they don’t mean 45% better fps overall. They’re speaking to developers so 45% faster rendering really means that. It’s not 45% better performance or frame rate.

The performance improvement is very likely 60% or above.