joe_zazen
Member
well, in fairness, since xbox will be targeting potato PCs forever now, xss doent really matter as generations are dead for Microsoft, which means no more big baseline jumps with or without xss.
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Developer Speaks About Lockhart "Holding Back Next Gen." And PS5 VS XSX Dev Kits.
well, in fairness, since xbox will be targeting potato PCs forever now, xss doent really matter as generations are dead for Microsoft, which means no more big baseline jumps with or without xss.
joe_zazen
Member
it kinda is dead, MS isnt really a console company anymore, nintendo is handheld.
Insane Metal
Member
So... as expected? Both consoles very close, PS5 having an edge in dev tools like Cerny said and XSEX having an edge in effects/rez but still a small difference overall? To the surprise of no one.
Airbus Jr
Banned
i think i do
longdi
Banned
You are the one that's not fully aware. Lockhart is better than one X brah
Bergoglio
Member
Do you play with tools and codes?
danielJackson
Banned
12 Tflop console can run anything 4 tflops console can at any resolution between 1080p - 4k
4 Tflop console can maybe run game @1080p that runs @ 4k on 12tflops machine, but 4tflop machine cant run game @1080p if it uses "all 12 tflops" at lower than 4k res.
It should be simple as that.
series S will 100% restrict series x games, if series x games must be 4k, to be able to run on 4x lower res on 300% slower machine.
Series S is 33% of series x tflops, or series x is 300% of series s tflops.
Hard to counter argument this: if game needs 12 tflops to run at 1080p/60fps, how could 4 tflops machine run it unless it drops to somewhere around 720-900/30? So it means that series x games kind of have to be engineered for high res + framerate, instead of high fidelity + lower res with upscaling, to have the right starting point for downgrades.
series S vs X is kind of like docked switch vs xbox one situation
4 Tflop console can maybe run game @1080p that runs @ 4k on 12tflops machine, but 4tflop machine cant run game @1080p if it uses "all 12 tflops" at lower than 4k res.
It should be simple as that.
series S will 100% restrict series x games, if series x games must be 4k, to be able to run on 4x lower res on 300% slower machine.
Series S is 33% of series x tflops, or series x is 300% of series s tflops.
Hard to counter argument this: if game needs 12 tflops to run at 1080p/60fps, how could 4 tflops machine run it unless it drops to somewhere around 720-900/30? So it means that series x games kind of have to be engineered for high res + framerate, instead of high fidelity + lower res with upscaling, to have the right starting point for downgrades.
series S vs X is kind of like docked switch vs xbox one situation
You’re shitting me? You must be
But this is how it’s always been and always will be. New implementations and shader updates will allow new tech, but faster grunt will mean either more of these effects or a higher resolution. That’s the way it is, and with this utterly stupid “we all need to push for 4k” bollocks that’s now in play, it’s going to be a hard gen for some. That’s why I’m glad there is serious stock put into CB and improving image quality from a lower resolution image. I’ve stood firm on wanting 1440p to be the max we should aim for, not 4k, not yet. But these GPUs will most be used for pumping out higher resolutions and not much more.
Now if you want a REAL next gen player, you need to look at the CPU. All the consoles have fantastic CPUs now, and you will see some impressive stuff. Next gen doesn’t just have to mean better looking.
I think it has always been that way because developers have been targeting the same base console specs since 2013. Normally a next gen is a complete reset where we finally see AAA games targeting much better hardware that allows for experience simply not possible on current gen. Sony is doing that and managed to impress me with games like Horizon Far West, build from the ground up for the ps5. Unfortunately, all MS's been talking about is cross-gen 1st party games and that's why they're saying 120fps and native 4k will be only the major differences from current gen.
We will see, but I don't think developers like Guerilla Games, Santa Monica, Naughty Dog etc. will spend 2/3 of the gpu resources on just 4k and 60fps. I'm guessing they are going to be targeting 30fps and be as efficient as possible by using things like checkerboard rendering. Those games will likely be a lot more visually ambitious compared to what MS is able to do their exclusives, that are shackled to current gen, mid-range gaming pc's and now a 4Tflops Lockhart. Not sure what the 3rd party developers will be doing, but I don't think they can't stay too far behind Sony's 1st party titles by forcing 60fps/4k into all of their games, though. That's why I think we will be seeing a ton of more ambitious 30fps/1440p games later on, that would be a lot harder to scale down on Lockhart.
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SaucyJack
Member
So this 4 Tflop Lockhart, if it really exists, is not holding back the Nextgen port of a current gen game? What a huge fucking surprise, it runs on the base XBO FFS.
Surely the point about Lockhart holding things back isn’t about the early life of next-gen i.e. the period that is traditionally cross-gen. The point is once we get into the middle of the generation and people are starting to test the limits that the minimum spec you’re developing for isn't 10/12 Tflops, it’s 4. You can’t tell me that this doesn’t limit the aspirations of developers.
it’s not just going to be scaling back the resolution, it's going to be a ballache 2 or 3 years in, and it’s going to be a big fucking heavy albatross after 6 or 7.
Surely the point about Lockhart holding things back isn’t about the early life of next-gen i.e. the period that is traditionally cross-gen. The point is once we get into the middle of the generation and people are starting to test the limits that the minimum spec you’re developing for isn't 10/12 Tflops, it’s 4. You can’t tell me that this doesn’t limit the aspirations of developers.
it’s not just going to be scaling back the resolution, it's going to be a ballache 2 or 3 years in, and it’s going to be a big fucking heavy albatross after 6 or 7.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
Lockhart will be able to run games at native 1080p as long as the XSX version doesn't drop below 1800p. It should be fine.
SleepDoctor
Banned
So much "concern" from people who have no interest interest in Xbox like always.
OT: while this would be good news, im not buying it that easy. What happened to the nda?
OT: while this would be good news, im not buying it that easy. What happened to the nda?
Insane Metal
Member
I don't. But people who actually do say the same.
bitbydeath
Member
X1X is 6TF too.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
Of GCN. Not RDNA.
bitbydeath
Member
bitbydeath
Member
Said it was much better but they’re both equivalent to 6TF GCN.
Nikana
Go Go Neo Rangers!
If you're comparing strictly one aspect which is theoretical floating point, but every other aspect is far superior on RDNA.
FacelessSamurai
..but cry so much I wish I had some
Wait, what?
bitbydeath
Member
I know. Hence why 4 is 6 and not 4.
oldergamer
Member
Suddenly TF are important again? Fanboy reasoning never ceases!
I kept telling people that the idea once console is going to holdback another, is a stupid idea when game engines are made scalable. The ONLY difference in this instance, is that games will run in a lower resolution (might require some lower res textures, but that could always be handled at runtime).
NOTE this approach is EASIER to handle then developing for multiple different hardware like devs routinely do on PC. With Series S and Series X having identical feature sets, the argument that series S will hold back ANYTHING on series X is now Invalid. That argument was also invalid before, we found this out, as everything could just be a port of the game on newer hardware.
Later this month, wait for MS to show its first party games with a few of those having graphics that are beyond everything sony has showed so far on PS5.
My bet is that MS will show us what true next gen titles looks like, while later offering a solution that will be cheaper then what Sony has on the table (You still get next gen visuals but at a lower price point). There's a huge part of the market that doesn't care about 4K, or simply can't make use of it. This was me up until october last year when i decided to upgrade to a 4K tv from my 1080p plasma.
I kept telling people that the idea once console is going to holdback another, is a stupid idea when game engines are made scalable. The ONLY difference in this instance, is that games will run in a lower resolution (might require some lower res textures, but that could always be handled at runtime).
NOTE this approach is EASIER to handle then developing for multiple different hardware like devs routinely do on PC. With Series S and Series X having identical feature sets, the argument that series S will hold back ANYTHING on series X is now Invalid. That argument was also invalid before, we found this out, as everything could just be a port of the game on newer hardware.
Later this month, wait for MS to show its first party games with a few of those having graphics that are beyond everything sony has showed so far on PS5.
My bet is that MS will show us what true next gen titles looks like, while later offering a solution that will be cheaper then what Sony has on the table (You still get next gen visuals but at a lower price point). There's a huge part of the market that doesn't care about 4K, or simply can't make use of it. This was me up until october last year when i decided to upgrade to a 4K tv from my 1080p plasma.
Framerates should not take a hit compared to X and S. The docked Switch vs Xbox One comparison doesn't hold up because both the S and X have the same CPU and SSD. Resolution should drop but everything else should be manageable and it should still run at a good framerate.
What happens if a third party dev makes a game that rally maxs out Series X and PS5 and that dev can’t make the game run in an acceptable state on Lockhart without tremendous effort?
Would Microsoft let them release the game for series X only? If the answer to that is no, and PS5 is outselling Series X, I wonder if some devs would just release on PS5 only.
Would Microsoft let them release the game for series X only? If the answer to that is no, and PS5 is outselling Series X, I wonder if some devs would just release on PS5 only.
D
Deleted member 775630
Unconfirmed Member
I thought in this case 4 was more than 6
Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Whatever game they make on X will scale to 1/4 or 1/3 the resolution on the S. No developer is going to make less than a 1440p game on these systems which would get you 720p or higher on the S.
cormack12
Gold Member
Is this why TLOU II looks so terrible? Because the GPU in the standard version held back the Pro version?
/s
www.playstation.com
/s
PS4 Pro | Faster, more powerful & with 4K gaming | PlayStation
Everything you need to know about PS4 Pro from the official PlayStation site. 4K gaming, enhanced performance & HDR technology from the most powerful PS4.
www.playstation.com
93xfan
Banned
That would be insane and would fail hard.
DonF
Member
Looks about right. One is the top of the line, 4k machine, the other is the 1080p box. Somewhere down the line we might even get perf differences, like one running or having the option for 60 fps when the one with lower specs is locked to just 30fps.
It's is going to be extra work for the devs, but not that much.
It's is going to be extra work for the devs, but not that much.
Dodkrake
Banned
In survival, the AI is not scripted. There's no pre determined paths. And I didn't say the ai won't be better in new gen games, I just said your argument is bollocks
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
But people that are praising it have no interest also... I bet 95% of the people here cheering for Lockhart will not buy it (at least for there main console). They do it because they support Xbox and they hope this will help MS give a bit more of fight to PlayStation next gen...
No hardcore gamer will buy this... even if they play right now on a 1080p tv.. they for sure expect to upgrade in the next years to 4K TVs as they are getting so affordable now.. so they will not cut their own legs buying Lockhart and get burned in a few years..
They think that Lockhart will be bought by moms and casuals that don’t give a fuck for specs and if they see next gen writen in a box at a cheaper price they buy it..
But casuals and moms are not the ones that will be aligning in the first year or two to buy this new consoles.. so I predict Lockhart will not sell well at all.. because it will be cheaper but not that cheaper.. the value is not there for the mindful gamer..
The few ones that buy it will be burn in 2,3 years.. when support start to fade and they get really poorly optimized versions of games..
Will see..
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
AI Upscaling should be the path they take. Don't know how well MS's ML Upscaling works in comparison to DLSS. On Control you can have 4K DLSS(1080p Base) for around 10-15% performance impact over native 1080p/4xMSAA. Lockhart can use 1080p DLSS/AI Upscale(540p or 720p Base) and have tons of performance to spare.
1080p 4xMSAA, 1080p DLSS(720p), DLSS(540p):
1080p 4xMSAA(50fps):
1080p DLSS 720p base(80fps):
1080p DLSS 540p base(90fps):
I've formerly done some 4TF benchmarks with Highest Settings on 2060 Super locked to set frequency using a custom curve and limit setting in Afterburner. Even with sub-4K resolution on 2080, it scales just fine when AI upscaling is in play. I'll do some more with the 4TF settings later tonight.
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jakinov
Member
Well good thing the hardcore gamer is not most gamers which is why there's less than 1 PS4 pro sold for every PS5 sold since it's introduction. Because of the diminishing return of going 4K, people are arguably going to be less inclined to upgrade to 4K just because it's cheaper. And good thing the hardcore have the option of getting an XSX and PS5.
You also making an assumption on buying habits that hardcore gamers are main people buying consoles at launch. I don't believe there's an evidence of that. Kids are always asking for things and parents always looking for things to get their kids. Marketing is extremely heavy whether its forced ads or forced integration. You can't assume the hardcore or are all going to be saved up or willing at launch I would also argue that a subset of hardcore gamers are also going to hold back because they know they can wait when there's more games available. Whereas, a casual can be driven to buy a new console just so they can play NBA 2k21, new COD or Fifa with better graphics; or really simply because it's a new console.
oldergamer
Member
This is a really ignorant post. Who are you to tell what others are thinking? Myself i would clearly get xsx, but for my daughter or brother or even a second tv in the same house (not everyone owns multiple 4k tv's) it makes good sense to offer a cheaper alternative.
Anyone that is space constrained and cant have a tv over 40inches wont get the benefit from a 4ktv imo
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Fortuneelsewhere
Member
PS4 Pro is not comparable because is a midgen refresh.. lots of gamers had already bought the base PS4 and will not double dip either for economical reasons or because they are happy with what they have..
This is a new generation that will last for another 6,7 years and most gamers that will buy a new console in the first, second year are well aware of that.. so they want good value but legs also to take them true all the gen..
Again I think most people that will buy this consoles in the first years will be aware of what they are buying and they will not be fooled easily..
Of course this is all speculation and maybe I’m the fool.. let’s see how this will play out..
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
Good for you that can have multiple consoles and multiple TVs.. most of people don’t, so like you, they will buy the x first as that will be their only console and they want the best value.. (as I said in my post)
Thanks for prove my point..
Schmick
Member
I think the Lockhart will fit in nicely with my setup.damage control....damage control..damage control...so much damage control....
lockhart is potato macine that even weaker than xbox one x
If you love lockhart so much then why dont u embrace yourself gaming with a 4,6 tf machine ( which is just slightly ahead of ps4pro) since u love it so much
Gaming PC for my main gaming device accompanied by a PS5 for Sony exclusives. Both located in my games room and each connected to my 1440p 144mhz monitor.
A Lockhart will be used in my living room as a media centre and gaming device. It seems perfect to me and yes i'm embracing it. Very much so!
jakinov
Member
I'm not comparing life time sales. I'm talking about since the introduction of the PS4 pro to prove that most people buying consoles aren't going to buy the more powerful one even if it's available. The stat is for every PS4 sold since the PS4 Pro launched. It shows that historically people bought more of the console that was cheaper than the one that was more expensive and powerful while both were available.
I don't think it's about being fooled more than it is about instant gratifications and affordability. For people $500 is just way too much and they may even rationalize $300 now then $300 later for the upgrade or won't even bother with the upgrade. They just want new games or some level of improvement.
oldergamer
Member
Nice try to spin your BS post. You completely missed my point! Like i said, I being a hardcore console gamer will opt for the best or most expensive thing, but don't dismiss the reasoning others have for wanting something less expensive or that better suits their needs. I don't see how that proves your point at all. When price isn't the barrier to experiencing new gen games, the consumer wins (Only fanboys lose)
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AI Upscaling should be the path they take. Don't know how well MS's ML Upscaling works in comparison to DLSS. On Control you can have 4K DLSS(1080p Base) for around 10-15% performance impact over native 1080p/4xMSAA. Lockhart can use 1080p DLSS/AI Upscale(540p or 720p Base) and have tons of performance to spare.
1080p 4xMSAA, 1080p DLSS(720p), DLSS(540p):
1080p 4xMSAA(50fps):
1080p DLSS 720p base(80fps):
1080p DLSS 540p base(90fps):
I've formerly done some 4TF benchmarks with Highest Settings on 2060 Super locked to set frequency using a custom curve and limit setting in Afterburner. Even with sub-4K resolution on 2080, it scales just fine when AI upscaling is in play. I'll do some more with the 4TF settings later tonight.
If things like DLLS work so great, then why wouldn't developers be using it for Series X and ps5 too? Its like Lockhart can only hang in there if developers would be seriously inefficient on the other 2 consoles.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
DLSS 2.0 works great for a fact. MS's ML Upscaling, along with RT performance, is currently an unknown. The post I made is directly addressing what you're talking about, "What if devs use sub-4K resolution on XSX?" Answer: At least with DLSS, you can go as low as 1080p DLSS(540p Base Res) to accommodate. 1080p is 1/4 res of 2160p. 540p is 1/4 res of 1080p. Unlikely devs will go below 1440p on next-gen consoles. Even the Path Traced 1080p Minecraft is unlikely to see the light of day as more than a tech demo, but if it did, there's still options.
Yams
Member
If upscaling is available for Lockhart, it will be available for the Series X and PS5.
DLSS (and future equivalents) allow developers to hit their resolution targets without taxing the GPU as much. The power that would have gone to resolution will go elsewhere. It will benefit all consoles. The Series S will hit 1080p, and the X will hit 4K. They may just not do it natively. It'll be up to the developer.
lastmessiah
Member
Why comment on things you don’t understand? It has been explained many times here in layman’s terms how game engines scale. People are either being willfully obtuse or are just plain slow on the uptake. But yes, I’m sure a bunch of tech illiterate forum posters have the secret knowledge needed for Microsoft to be “next gen”.
FacelessSamurai
..but cry so much I wish I had some
Sony has never supported 1440p output unlike MS, why would you game on PS5 on that monitor?
PS5 doesn't have dedicated ML, XSX does. Based on Sony has said nothing in regard to ML and on the other hand, MS is marketing it for the XSX.
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Pallas
Member
damage control....damage control..damage control...so much damage control....
lockhart is potato macine that even weaker than xbox one x
If you love lockhart so much then why dont u embrace yourself gaming with a 4,6 tf machine ( which is just slightly ahead of ps4pro) since u love it so much
Except it’s not weaker than the one x? RDNA 2 < GCN, plus the CPU, SSD and such but you know that already, so you’re practically shit posting.
Fortuneelsewhere
Member
I think is not a matter of power or price is more about balance and perceived value.. and in this case the Lockhart will be the wild card as it will be significantly underpowered compared with the two main consoles, sex and ps5.. and although it will be cheaper I think it will not offset the fact that for the buyer it will be perceived as to getting a worst deal against sex and ps5..
We will see how this turn out... as I said I think the main buyer of next gen consoles for the first two years will be informed gamers that know what they are buying and want most value... so for me it will be a battle between sex and ps5.. as I assure you none of them will be more than 500 and possible they can even came lower.. specially ps5 digital.. in this scenario if Lockhart comes at more than 300 it will be dead on arrival..
How much less expensive? Do you think Lockhart will sell more than sex? I think is you that are being dismissive of others to be able to have the best hardware for a reasonable price... most gamers will not afford multiple consoles but for sure they will be able to figure it out by themselves were the most value is for the console that they will have for the next 7 years.
“When price isn’t the barrier to experiencing new gen games, the consumer wins” Lol... this looks a straight quote from Greenberg...
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Iced Arcade
Member
Wow great info Red Ranger.
Confirms a bunch! Lockhart is real, Lockhart won't hold back more powerful platforms (was always a dumb argument anyway), PS5 is easier to develop for and the XSX is more graphically powerful.
Confirms a bunch! Lockhart is real, Lockhart won't hold back more powerful platforms (was always a dumb argument anyway), PS5 is easier to develop for and the XSX is more graphically powerful.