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Can people please understand that Switch 2 COULD be more powerful than Steam Deck?!

Rykan

Member
Isn’t the switch oled near the same price as the deck?
It is, but that's comparing the entry model to the Premium model of the Switch.

The difference between the Switch entry model and SD entry model is 200$. The difference between Switch's premium model and Deck's Premium model is 300$. Considering the age of the hardware and the fact that the Switch price hasn't come down, its likely that Nintendo holds a much larger profit margin on Switch hardware than Valve does for Steam deck.
 

dvdvideo

Member
I hope op is right, but this is Nintendo here, lately they have been so dam cheap, we'll be lucky if we get an overclocked Tegra from 2016 and some extra ram, and dock that upscales with dlss along with a $10 price hike for games.
 
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mrmeh

Member
...Could be, Nintendo like to make monies though and have good battery life. They also love to use non cutting-edge stuff. Maybe the other thread was a don't get your hopes message.
 

FireFly

Member
No.

Look at Steamdeck form factor. Now look at Switch form factor. Look at Switch pricing. Now look at Steamdeck pricing.

Yeah that ain't happening.

If it comes within the next 2 years, it won't surpass Steamdeck.
Steam Deck doesn't have a docked mode, though. I don't think it would be crazy for a device to hit 15W in a dock.

Also Nvidia is already competitive with AMD for performance per watt on an inferior process (8nm). So on 5nm say, they should have a big advantage.
 
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hinch7

Member
Steam Deck doesn't have a docked mode, though. I don't think it would be crazy for a device to hit 15W in a dock.

Also Nvidia is already competitive with AMD for performance per watt on an inferior process (8nm). So on 5nm say, they should have a big advantage.
You really think Nintendo is going with a cutting edge processor and node? Highly doubt that.. A customized/cut down Jetson Orin NX on 6/7nm is probably what we can realistically expect and that should line up with similar performance as the Steam Deck in an <15W device - on max theoretical clocks. And that's being highly optimistic. Besides we haven't really seen how well Ampere performs in real 3D applications and games in ultra low power SOC's yet.

Nintendo will also clock it on the lower end of the spectrum to save on battery. The NX for example uses a customized Tegra X1 and runs at lower clocks and ~6W docked.
 
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winjer

Member
You really think Nintendo is going with a cutting edge processor and node? Highly doubt that.. A customized/cut down Jetson Orin NX on 6/7nm is probably what we can realistically expect and that should line up with similar performance as the Steam Deck in an <15W device - on max theoretical clocks. And that's being highly optimistic. Besides we haven't really seen how well Ampere performs in real 3D applications and games in ultra low power SOC's yet.

Nintendo will also clock it on the lower end of the spectrum to save on battery. The NX for example uses a customized Tegra X1 and runs at lower clocks and ~6W docked.

With the original Switch, Nintendo choose to go with the second best. At the time nvidia already had Pascal on the market, at 16nm. This was basically 20nm, but with FinFets
But Nintendo went with Maxwell 2.0 GPU, at 20nm. But mind you that the on PC, Maxwell 2.0 was made in 28nm.

If the a Switch 2, was to be released now. I would think that they would use 6nm. Maybe even N5, which is not the most advanced node of 2022. It's the second best.
The most advanced node for 2022 is N3, for Samsung and TSMC. In fact, Samsung is already producing chips in N3 with GAA.
But if the Switch 2 releases in 2024-2025, like some rumors point to. By that time, N3 will be the second best node.

Another thing to consider is that Ampere is the second best architecture in 2022. Ada Lovelace releasing in this Fall.
But in 2024-2025, the second best architecture, will be Ada Lovelace.
 
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FireFly

Member
You really think Nintendo is going with a cutting edge processor and node? Highly doubt that.. A customized/cut down Jetson Orin NX on 6/7nm is probably what we can realistically expect and that should line up with similar performance as the Steam Deck in an <15W device - on max theoretical clocks. And that's being highly optimistic. Besides we haven't really seen how well Ampere performs in real 3D applications and games in ultra low power SOC's yet.

Nintendo will also clock it on the lower end of the spectrum to save on battery. The NX for example uses a customized Tegra X1 and runs at lower clocks and ~6W docked.
5 nm won't be cutting edge in 2023/2024 when 3nm is ramping up. When the Switch launched on 20nm in 2017, it was only one process behind the 16nm process used for "cutting edge" PC GPUs.

Anyway, I agree we should expect similar performance at 7nm for 15W, if Nintendo can hit that in docked mode – with less in portable mode. But I think in docked mode it could still end up "technically" faster, depending on how Ampere competes with RDNA 2 at 7nm/6nm.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
With the original Switch, Nintendo choose to go with the second best. At the time nvidia already had Pascal on the market, at 16nm. This was basically 20nm, but with FinFets
But Nintendo went with Maxwell 2.0 GPU, at 20nm. But mind you that the on PC, Maxwell 2.0 was made in 28nm.

If the a Switch 2, was to be released now. I would think that they would use 6nm. Maybe even N5, which is not the most advanced node of 2022. It's the second best.
The most advanced node for 2022 is N3, for Samsung and TSMC. In fact, Samsung is already producing chips in N3 with GAA.
But if the Switch 2 releases in 2024-2025, like some rumors point to. By that time, N3 will be the second best node.

Another thing to consider is that Ampere is the second best architecture in 2022. Ada Lovelace releasing in this Fall.
But in 2024-2025, the second best architecture, will be Ada Lovelace.
N3 in high volumes? Who is pushing complex N3 based SoC’s in high volumes or has major designs on it ready to ship in high volumes this year? Once I see iPhobe shipping with it in volume yes and a few months later when others get on it too.

Right now realistically Nintendo would ship with N7+ or N6 or well with whatever their SoC supplier has. The Switch is unmodified Tegra (with some cores turned off in software I think), so it is not like they pushed the project in any particular direction, it was good enough.
 

NahaNago

Member
Switch console and games still sell like cake and at full price. Why is a Switch 2 even necessary again?
I kinda agree that it isn't that necessary. One of the reasons folk want a Switch 2 is so that they could get some ports of the AAA third party games or at least the majority of the AA games.

I kinda of hope that they wait until like early 2025 before they release the next switch. They will have tons of games in 2023. Have 2024 be their soft year and then go hard again in 2025.
 
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winjer

Member
N3 in high volumes? Who is pushing complex N3 based SoC’s in high volumes or has major designs on it ready to ship in high volumes this year? Once I see iPhobe shipping with it in volume yes and a few months later when others get on it too.

Right now realistically Nintendo would ship with N7+ or N6 or well with whatever their SoC supplier has. The Switch is unmodified Tegra (with some cores turned off in software I think), so it is not like they pushed the project in any particular direction, it was good enough.

Apple will probably be the first to use N3. As usual.
 

Rykan

Member
Steam Deck doesn't have a docked mode, though. I don't think it would be crazy for a device to hit 15W in a dock.

Also Nvidia is already competitive with AMD for performance per watt on an inferior process (8nm). So on 5nm say, they should have a big advantage.
In theory yes but this kinda ignores other factors.

You have to take Nintendo's design philosophy into account when it comes to developing hardware. It needs to be compact so it can be used by a wide range of users and it needs to be quiet. So there's not much wiggle room for cooling. It also needs to be affordable. Yes, newer chips will help in some regard but its unlikely to bridge the gap between Steamdeck and the new Switch.

There's another factor at play though: Nintendo will want the handheld experience to be as close as possible as the TV experience, with only resolution being the major difference. Nintendo is just unlikely to invest into a significant hardware boost, especially since it has little competition.
 

REDRZA MWS

Member
Expecting power or real tangible technological hardware progress from Nintendo only leads to disappointment. They’ll give you slightly more power and some other bs gimmick. They get away with it because they make great games. Fuck Nintendo. I’m never buying their outdated shit hardware again as a firewall to their games.
 

Tams

Gold Member
N3 in high volumes? Who is pushing complex N3 based SoC’s in high volumes or has major designs on it ready to ship in high volumes this year? Once I see iPhobe shipping with it in volume yes and a few months later when others get on it too.

Right now realistically Nintendo would ship with N7+ or N6 or well with whatever their SoC supplier has. The Switch is unmodified Tegra (with some cores turned off in software I think), so it is not like they pushed the project in any particular direction, it was good enough.
Yep, N3 isn't ready for mass production yet. If all goes to plan, the iPhone 15 will use it though.

If I recall correctly, there were reports that Apple and Intel have bought up all the N3 capacity (only TSMC offering it soon), which leaves N5 largely taken up by AMD, Qualcomm, and Nvidia, plus some others. So that leaves N6/7 that are going to start to free up too.
 

Tams

Gold Member
Expecting power or real tangible technological hardware progress from Nintendo only leads to disappointment. They’ll give you slightly more power and some other bs gimmick. They get away with it because they make great games. Fuck Nintendo. I’m never buying their outdated shit hardware again as a firewall to their games.
  1. They are their games. You or I have no right that they publish them elsewhere.
  2. Keeping their games exclusives gets hardware (consoles and accessories) sales. All of which they are profitable on from day 1. A profitable games company is one that will stay around and not be bought up.
  3. Less so with the Switch, but by making their own hardware they can push some types of gameplay that requires certain hardware. Accessories have been tried many, many times and have worked exactly zero times in the long run. Hopefully the PSVR2 will be a change from that, but I have my doubts.
 

rubenburgt

Member
I would love to see a more powerful switch, but I doubt it will really be more powerful than the steam deck.

Nintendo knows they don't have to try hard thanks to their dedicated fan base, and they probably want to keep the cost low so parents and children are more enticed to buy it.
 

hinch7

Member
With the original Switch, Nintendo choose to go with the second best. At the time nvidia already had Pascal on the market, at 16nm. This was basically 20nm, but with FinFets
But Nintendo went with Maxwell 2.0 GPU, at 20nm. But mind you that the on PC, Maxwell 2.0 was made in 28nm.

If the a Switch 2, was to be released now. I would think that they would use 6nm. Maybe even N5, which is not the most advanced node of 2022. It's the second best.
The most advanced node for 2022 is N3, for Samsung and TSMC. In fact, Samsung is already producing chips in N3 with GAA.
But if the Switch 2 releases in 2024-2025, like some rumors point to. By that time, N3 will be the second best node.

Another thing to consider is that Ampere is the second best architecture in 2022. Ada Lovelace releasing in this Fall.
But in 2024-2025, the second best architecture, will be Ada Lovelace.
5N is expensive and AMD/Nvidia/Qualcomm would have already booked those orders in for them. 3N is out of the question in 2023/2024. Unless Nintendo are releasing this in 2024/2025 this is rather unlikely.

Nintendo nearly always go for mature, readily available processes due to cheaper cost and availability.

For arguments sake lets say Nintendo does go for 5N they'd have to compete for wafers over the other tech giants and suffer from major shortages. When they could just go with older processes that aren't being taxed up.
 

REDRZA MWS

Member
  1. They are their games. You or I have no right that they publish them elsewhere.
  2. Keeping their games exclusives gets hardware (consoles and accessories) sales. All of which they are profitable on from day 1. A profitable games company is one that will stay around and not be bought up.
  3. Less so with the Switch, but by making their own hardware they can push some types of gameplay that requires certain hardware. Accessories have been tried many, many times and have worked exactly zero times in the long run. Hopefully the PSVR2 will be a change from that, but I have my doubts.
Yeah, all obvious points. Believe me, I’m not even trying to publish their games. I’m saying I’ll never buy Nintendo hardware ever again, so UNLESS their games are on other platforms, out in those too.
 

winjer

Member
5N is expensive and AMD/Nvidia/Qualcomm would have already booked those orders in for them. 3N is out of the question in 2023/2024. Unless Nintendo are releasing this in 2024/2025 this is rather unlikely.

Nintendo nearly always go for mature, readily available processes due to cheaper cost and availability.

For arguments sake lets say Nintendo does go for 5N they'd have to compete for wafers over the other tech giants and suffer from major shortages. When they could just go with older processes that aren't being taxed up.

You probably didn't read the news that TSMC has excess production.
Or that nvidia paid in advance for a big share of TSMC's N5, but now the market demand has fallen drastically. So they tried to get back some money, by reducing the allotted production. But TSMC refused.


The days when every chip would sell instantly to miners or people working from home, are over.
In a curious twist of fate, after 2 years of chip shortage, we are in for a chip oversupply.
During these last 2 years, TSMC could increase prices as they wished. But that is no longer the case.
In might be even worse, as Samsung managed to overtake TSMC to the 3nm GAA production. So now Samsung is a strong competitor against TSMC.
TSMC is set to start the N3 volume production in H2 2022.
 

hinch7

Member
You probably didn't read the news that TSMC has excess production.
Or that nvidia paid in advance for a big share of TSMC's N5, but now the market demand has fallen drastically. So they tried to get back some money, by reducing the allotted production. But TSMC refused.


The days when every chip would sell instantly to miners or people working from home, are over.
In a curious twist of fate, after 2 years of chip shortage, we are in for a chip oversupply.
During these last 2 years, TSMC could increase prices as they wished. But that is no longer the case.
In might be even worse, as Samsung managed to overtake TSMC to the 3nm GAA production. So now Samsung is a strong competitor against TSMC.
TSMC is set to start the N3 volume production in H2 2022.

Its only rumors that Nvidia tried to cancel some of that 5N allocation due to oversupply. Them and their partners are sitting on top of a lot of unsold GPU's. If anything TSMC and their customers reducing capacity is bad for the rest of the industry seeing as Apple have first dips on their latest nodes. Don't forget these chips are going to be even more expensive as TSMC are raising prices on top.

In any case, expecting Nintendo to go anywhere near top end and TOTL components isn't going to happen. Nintendo aren't going to create $450 portable powerhouse with the latest fab technologies when they are in for the profit. Just look up their history and hardware choices for their portable and consoles. What you are expecting totally goes against their design ethos - which they have largely stuck to all these generations Gunpei Yokoi - Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology
 
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winjer

Member
Its only rumors that Nvidia tried to cancel some of that 5N allocation due to oversupply. Them and their partners are sitting on top of a lot of unsold GPU's. If anything TSMC and their customers reducing capacity is bad for the rest of the industry seeing as Apple have first dips on their latest nodes. Don't forget these chips are going to be even more expensive as TSMC are raising prices on top.

In any case, expecting Nintendo to go anywhere near top end and TOTL components isn't going to happen. Nintendo aren't going to create $450 portable powerhouse with the latest fab technologies when they are in for the profit. Just look up their history and hardware choices for their portable and consoles. What you are expecting totally goes against their design ethos - which they have largely stuck to all these generations Gunpei Yokoi - Lateral Thinking with Withered Technology

If you look at my posts, I said Nintendo would go for second best.

At this moment, AIBs and stores are pressuring nvidia to delay the RTX 4000 launch, so they can clear inventory.
But on the other hand, nvidia's stocks have fallen 50% already. Shareholders won't be happy if the RTX 4000 isn't released for the Holidays season, to boost revenue and profits.

But the thing is, all these tech companies were banking on the crypto craze to continue for a while longer. And that the constrains with covid would not end as soon as they did.
Like TSMC already admitted publicly, there is an oversupply. Demand is much lower now. And it's probably going to get even lower, seeing how inflation is sky high in most countries. And energy prices are increasing significantly.
So TSMC is going to have to cut prices. Just like other producers of chips are already doing. For example, NAND and memory companies are already preparing to lower prices even further.
 
With the original Switch, Nintendo choose to go with the second best. At the time nvidia already had Pascal on the market, at 16nm. This was basically 20nm, but with FinFets
But Nintendo went with Maxwell 2.0 GPU, at 20nm. But mind you that the on PC, Maxwell 2.0 was made in 28nm.

If the a Switch 2, was to be released now. I would think that they would use 6nm. Maybe even N5, which is not the most advanced node of 2022. It's the second best.
The most advanced node for 2022 is N3, for Samsung and TSMC. In fact, Samsung is already producing chips in N3 with GAA.
But if the Switch 2 releases in 2024-2025, like some rumors point to. By that time, N3 will be the second best node.

Another thing to consider is that Ampere is the second best architecture in 2022. Ada Lovelace releasing in this Fall.
But in 2024-2025, the second best architecture, will be Ada Lovelace.
Just to point out, with Wii U, Nintendo used the process 45/40nm, when 32nm, and 22nm were a thing.
 

FStubbs

Member
  1. They are their games. You or I have no right that they publish them elsewhere.
  2. Keeping their games exclusives gets hardware (consoles and accessories) sales. All of which they are profitable on from day 1. A profitable games company is one that will stay around and not be bought up.
  3. Less so with the Switch, but by making their own hardware they can push some types of gameplay that requires certain hardware. Accessories have been tried many, many times and have worked exactly zero times in the long run. Hopefully the PSVR2 will be a change from that, but I have my doubts.
To add to this, if Nintendo goes 100% third party, using Sega as an example, say goodbye to all of their games except Mario, Mario Kart, Zelda, and Pokemon - with diminished quality of the first 3 since they can't release them "when they're ready" anymore.
 

Kataploom

Member
Not sure if you've all seen this, but Digital Foundry stated "some kind of supersampling" on what they think is a "360p to 540p internal resolution" on Xenoblade 3... Did someone already open a thread? I'm too lazy to put a summary right now but I think this is great confirmation for Nintendo next consoles if power is such a concern (not timemarked, btw):

 
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Not sure if you've all seen this, but Digital Foundry stated "some kind of supersampling" on what they think is a "360p to 540p internal resolution" on Xenoblade 3... Did someone already open a thread? I'm too lazy to put a summary right now but I think this is great confirmation for Nintendo next consoles if power is such a concern (not timed, btw):

Great confirmation of what? It's just temporal upscaling, you can do that on base Xbox one even.
 

Kataploom

Member
John said 540p docked, so it doesn't hit 360p docked, first of all.

I don't think an Xbox one game renders as low as 540p, honestly.

What is this confirmation of? What are you even arguing for lol
They're probably using FSR 2.0 or DLSS, which means Nintendo is currently using it for their next games given that Nintendo Switch Sports also has some kind of supersampling.

Are there any other example at the level of 540p > 1080p rescaling being done on last gen consoles? Why hasn't it being done on Switch?

This is clearly an evolution on their development capabilities if it's just being done now... Unless you have some proof it's always being like this and Nintendo and other devs on the Switch just decided to omit it?
 
They're probably using FSR 2.0 or DLSS, which means Nintendo is currently using it for their next games given that Nintendo Switch Sports also has some kind of supersampling.

Are there any other example at the level of 540p > 1080p rescaling being done on last gen consoles? Why hasn't it being done on Switch?

This is clearly an evolution on their development capabilities if it's just being done now... Unless you have some proof it's always being like this and Nintendo and other devs on the Switch just decided to omit it?
It's not dlss because it requires tensor cores and would look a lot better than it does.

540p with temporal upscaling looks like 540p but with much cleaner edges, it's not going to come close to native 1080p. Not even dlss from native 720p to 1080p looks like native 1080p.

The reason Xenoblade 3 looks better than 2 is because 2 uses one of the absolute worst TAA solutions in existence.

What they're doing here is not magic, they need dlss on switch 2 and even then native resolution is still importantm
 

Mister Wolf

Member
They're probably using FSR 2.0 or DLSS, which means Nintendo is currently using it for their next games given that Nintendo Switch Sports also has some kind of supersampling.

Are there any other example at the level of 540p > 1080p rescaling being done on last gen consoles? Why hasn't it being done on Switch?

This is clearly an evolution on their development capabilities if it's just being done now... Unless you have some proof it's always being like this and Nintendo and other devs on the Switch just decided to omit it?

Monolith Soft are using their own temporal upscaler native to their in house game engine. They were already utilizing TAA with Xenoblade 2. From temporal antialiasing in 2 to temporal upscaling in 3. They are the most forward thinking developer at Nintendo.
 

Romulus

Member
Expecting power or real tangible technological hardware progress from Nintendo only leads to disappointment. They’ll give you slightly more power and some other bs gimmick. They get away with it because they make great games. Fuck Nintendo. I’m never buying their outdated shit hardware again as a firewall to their games.

I do like that they make their hardware easily emulated. The Switch 2 will likely be just as easy. We'll be playing their games at higher frames and resolution a few months after release. Steam Deck 2 will run them along with PC.
 
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Mister Wolf

Member
It's not dlss because it requires tensor cores and would look a lot better than it does.

540p with temporal upscaling looks like 540p but with much cleaner edges, it's not going to come close to native 1080p. Not even dlss from native 720p to 1080p looks like native 1080p.

The reason Xenoblade 3 looks better than 2 is because 2 uses one of the absolute worst TAA solutions in existence.

What they're doing here is not magic, they need dlss on switch 2 and even then native resolution is still importantm

I would say their 540p temporal upscaled to 1080p in 3 looks better than the 720p native resolution of XB2 and XBX.
 
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Kataploom

Member
It's not dlss because it requires tensor cores and would look a lot better than it does.

540p with temporal upscaling looks like 540p but with much cleaner edges, it's not going to come close to native 1080p. Not even dlss from native 720p to 1080p looks like native 1080p.

The reason Xenoblade 3 looks better than 2 is because 2 uses one of the absolute worst TAA solutions in existence.

What they're doing here is not magic, they need dlss on switch 2 and even then native resolution is still importantm
Well, there it is, Nintendo is most probably designing their next console using temporal scaling as a core feature. No matter if it's Monolith own tech or based on another third party tech, the thing is that Nintendo is clearly focusing a lot on that kind of tech.

I think base PS4 (which is lower than I expect) console with modern a feature set and using that rescaling will already punch above or same than SD, given the games are more optimized for system.
 
Well, there it is, Nintendo is most probably designing their next console using temporal scaling as a core feature. No matter if it's Monolith own tech or based on another third party tech, the thing is that Nintendo is clearly focusing a lot on that kind of tech.

I think base PS4 (which is lower than I expect) console with modern a feature set and using that rescaling will already punch above or same than SD, given the games are more optimized for system.
I mean yeah, it's good software is evolving, but I'm just saying it doesn't confirm anything for the next hardware.

I wouldn't worry though, dlss should be a guarantee for switch 2. Dlss really does look great nowadays, the only problem is ghosting which I hope can be solved on version 3.

Overall, switch 2 will be more capable than base ps4 no doubt.
 
People need to stop posting in this thread. It was made to be my rival. The fact is Nintendo stopped with the power race with the Gamecube. That dream is dead.

It's time to accept reality and side with me in this thread WAR.
 
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