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Soodanim
Gold Member
I don't think ER is particularly innovative or original, because the method was to make open world Souls and that's what they did. But that's also why they didn't need to add all of the things OP mentioned - this isn't any other game. It's a Souls game in all but name that takes place in an open world, for better or for worse.
Rush2112
Banned
sadly, it looks that way...
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Drizzlehell
Member
I enjoyed it for what it was, and it was a nice change of pace in terms of open world design compared to the more generic GTA or Assassin's Creed clones. But yeah, if you start thinking about it too much, you kinda wish that it was something more than Dark Souls with a horse and much broader area of exploration. In that regard, I get what OP is talking about and he's not wrong.
But then again, if the game is super fun, immersive, and provides hundreds of hours of super tight gameplay, then yeah, who cares lol. I'm not too heartbroken over what could've been. Fact is, though, FromSoft probably can't get away with it forever. Eventually they're gonna have to stop iterating and start innovating some more. Probably a new engine with more up-to-date visuals would be a good start. Even Demon's Souls remake blows ER out of the water in that regard so they could at least try and match that.
Fredrik
Member
Tree Sentinel - You’ll unfortunately meet more of those. Next time, easy cheese (well not easy, it’s a FROM game) is to ride forward, land one powerful hit, then ride away, turn around, go again jousting style.
Margit - It was basically where I learned how to play the game, I beat him around level 20 by being plain stubborn and dissect the fight, had too many runes in the boss room I refused to lose lol
I had no fancy ash at that time, in the end I used spirit yellyfish as sort of a shield, then lots of timed dodges and a weapon with blood loss, and I listened to that foolish ambitions phrase for a couple hours
Black_Mamba
Member
Read the rest of the comment if you’re really in doubt.
To make it even more clear, ER might not be perfect, but you can’t say it’s boring when so many people are replaying it multiple times, creating whole YouTube channels dedicated to the game and spending hours discussing builds, weapons and tactics. The game is deep, there’s A LOT of enemy variety and opportunities to play it in different ways. If someone say they’re bored they probably never liked it much from the start or just played too many souls games at this point.
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WalterSobchak
Member
I tried that a bit actually but thought it sucked , and I don't think you can erase one without erasing all.
Wish they would at bare minimum have a beastiary index of who you have fought and beaten , then I could tell what was left at least.
Swift_Star
Banned
This game has so many missing features that is baffling that people think this is revolutionary.
BadBurger
Is 'That Pure Potato'
Technically I didn't have many problems with it. I do think it should have run at a stable 60 fps or greater on my gaming PC, as it didn't look like something that should have been so demanding. I didn't experience stuttering or severe dips of FPS like others (and I am guessing OP is in that camp).
I thought the dearth of talkative NPC's and the general bleakness lended to the story - that this is a world in transition, "dead" in a sense, due to the shattering of the Elden Ring. Having the player having to largely piece things together themselves was refreshing in a world where most games hand feed story to the player.
My only criticisms revolve around the mechanic underpinnings of things, which I've mentioned ad nauseum and won't bore anyone by repeating it here.
I thought the dearth of talkative NPC's and the general bleakness lended to the story - that this is a world in transition, "dead" in a sense, due to the shattering of the Elden Ring. Having the player having to largely piece things together themselves was refreshing in a world where most games hand feed story to the player.
My only criticisms revolve around the mechanic underpinnings of things, which I've mentioned ad nauseum and won't bore anyone by repeating it here.
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
Low innovation is still innovation. So thank you. Everything's been done before. It's just about doing established conventions in unique ways. Death Stranding is an innovative game. Walking has been in video games for 30 years. They just applied it in a new way...is it no longer innovative because its been done before? It's not black and white.
Vyne
Can’t Git Gud
Interesting what some people can assume to dismiss any criticism.
Reasoning like it's impossible to have played the game till around 65% within a month of it coming out.... And then criticize its innovation and mechanics based on what I saw of the game based on my playtime....
nominedomine
Banned
From Software pretty much created their own sub-genre and style games, so what if not every one of their games reinvents everything? They masterfully applied their formula to the open world genre and did it in a way that made the game different from your regular Ubisoft inspired open world.
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Fredrik
Member
How far have you played? Are the complaints your own or are you repeating what you’ve seen others say?
In the OP you said that you wanted to sneak and grab loot unnoticed, but that’s in the game, I did that many times, sneaked past whole areas with annoying enemies. And you wanted to trigger enemies to fight each other, and that’s also in, I used to do that for lazy grinding since you get runes even when enemies kill each other. And you played the PS5 version, but also thought the PC version had odd keyboard layout, so you played on both platforms? But you never thought of using the PS5 controller on PC?
I just find some complaints a bit weird. I agree on the enemy AI and story though.
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Fredrik
Member
Yup, I see Elden Ring as the first game in the sub-genre ”open-world soulslike”.
People don’t directly compare Forza Horizon to Forza Motorsport, one is open-world racing and the other racing or racing simulator. Both have realistic cars but they play completely different. Just like if you compare Elden Ring to Bloodborne or Demon’s Souls.
Swift_Star
Banned
ER doesn’t play completely different from other Souls games. I would know because I played them all. Even the HUD is the same with a few additions. The enemy design and bosses are also evolutions (some from worse, like Bloodborne-like bosses) from what they’ve done before.
I stand by what I said. If it was called DS4 no one would bat an eye.
This is a dark souls game through and through.
CeeJay
Gold Member
I stopped reading right where I said so have no idea what the rest of your post said apart from the word in the replies. when you have to qualify your opinion by stating that you aren't sure if they have fixed it when you can just load the games up and check then that starts ringing alarm bells that you are just repeating what others have said without ever playing the game. You can spend time collating all these criticisms but can't simply load up the game to check it smells a bit off.
Fredrik
who did read all your post has pointed out several inconsistencies in his post just above and even though I didn't read much of the op I think I may have judged it correctly from the off. Anyone who plays a game of this scale to 65% and all they have is criticism is either trolling or off in some other way, either way not someone I am interested in listening to. If you really have played as much as you say and didn't enjoy it then what the hell are you doing man, go play something you are having fun with. There is too much choice out there to spend a month of your life on a game you dislike and then write long posts about.. . .because we're constantly told that ER is "GOAT" or a "Masterpiece" or some other superlative from both fans and the press. The overly flowery language used by reviewers to describe the game and its impact on gaming (open world gaming in particular), and the subsequent threads where folks desperately tried to understand why OTHER companies failed to do what Miyazaki did so effortlessly (on his first try no less) are why you've got threads like this asking the obvious question that follows such praise.
Fredrik
Member
I jumped straight from Demon’s Souls Remake to Elden Ring and then to Bloodborne after ER and I just can’t agree to this.
Sure, in indoor areas it’s classic Souls gameplay, if you ignore ash summons and jumping and crafting, and if you also hold a crossbow in left hand and axe in right and don’t block it would be similar to BB.
But come on, don’t lump these games together and say they’re all the same. They are not.
Swift_Star
Banned
this is why it’s called iteration. It has a feel new ideas thrown in the mix but the general gameplay is the same. Just like the gameplay from all main Kingdom Hearts games is the same. ER feels like a dark souls game.
Then you have final fantasy x, XII, xiii and XV. All of those games feel completely different from each other despite having some common enemies. But everything else about them are different.
ER doesn’t set itself apart from other souls games, just like KH3 doesn’t set itself apart from KH2.
But FFXV is completely different from XIII which by itself is different from XII.
Fredrik
Member
You’re stuck thinking about iterations. The games don’t play the same. They really don’t.
Elden Ring feels like a Demon’s Souls game when you’re inside narrow areas where you can’t use Torrent. It most definitely don’t feel like Demon’s Souls when you’re out in the open. And you spend a lot of time out in the open.
Out in the open it has more in common with Assassin’s Creed Odyssey or BOTW or something like that where you can spawn a horse and have snappy arcadey controls, if you ignore double jump and the insta-spawn. But lumping those games together would be comical and off the horse they’re nothing alike.
So, in the end, Elden Ring is completely unique. Therefore; open-world soulslike
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Swift_Star
Banned
Yes, they play the same. If you show a random person, they’ll say it’s the same game. Just like they’ll do with KH games. But I bet they won’t say it’s the same game with Final Fantasy.You’re stuck thinking about iterations. The games don’t play the same. They really don’t.
Elden Ring feels like a Demon’s Souls game when you’re inside narrow areas where you can’t use Torrent. It most definitely don’t feel like Demon’s Souls when you’re out in the open. And you spend a lot of time out in the open.
Out in the open it has more in common with Assassin’s Creed Odyssey or BOTW or something like that where you can spawn a horse and have snappy arcadey controls, if you ignore double jump and the insta-spawn. But lumping those games together would be comical and off the horse they’re nothing alike.
So, in the end, Elden Ring is completely unique. Therefore; open-world soulslike
It is what it is.
BossLackey
Gold Member
How on earth is Elden Ring's lore the same tired RPG tropes!? Compared to other FROM games, maybe, but they have some pretty unique gods/bosses and backstories. This is a pretty far cry from traditional fantasy. Malenia? The dungeater? Radahn?
BossLackey
Gold Member
The Souls series does not have massive, drastic jumps, but it does gradually evolve.
Thing is, Demon's Souls started great, whereas Horizon started...mediocre.
Fredrik
Member
Yes a unique type of Souls game. Open-world soulslike.
Genuinely curious what differences you are seeing in the DNA of DeS and ER such that they play different.
They aren't wrong. HZD and HFW have far more dynamic enemy encounters/approaches to gameplay relative to a build than ER. Easily.
anothertech
Member
Especially when opening argument is 'technical mess, don't know about now'
Honestly reads like, 'i didn't really play it, but here's what I think...'
Ghost of Caelid
Banned
You can buy elden ring items and runes. Just not in game. Have to do it via third party.
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MasterDerico
Member
Innovation ?
nominedomine
Banned
To some people it's their GOAT and a masterpiece, I don't find it hard to understand at all given the obvious quality of the game, regardless of it's shortcomings (that even other great open world games like BoTW fail to escape as well) to me it's still unbelievable what From Software was able to achieve.
I also find it funny that From Software gets criticized for not innovating when that is true to pretty much 99.9% of game studios and if anything From Software takes a lot more risks than most big studios I can think off within the type of games that they make, what other big studio is out there constantly putting out new IPs like them?
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Fredrik
Member
Elden Ring have a completely open map, instead of choosing a level in a small hub level like in DeS you traverse a huge map in ER and explore to find the ”levels”. And you can do this while riding Torrent, the horse, instantly spawned right where you stand, which have double jump so you do platforming, and there is mount combat which completely change the action, and there are boss fights on this map and tons of exploration.
When you’re off the open map and inside what I called ”levels” earlier, then it plays very much like Demon’s Souls. No argument there. Here I felt right at home coming directly from DeS Remake.
But you have summons now which makes it stand out from DeS, lots of different variations, which you level up like weapons, and you can properly jump for jump attacks or platforming, and you can craft consumables to help you in all sorts of ways.
I think that’s about it. If we’re ignoring these differences and say that Elden Ring is just like Demon’s Souls… then why have we spent the last 10 years or so debating if open-world design is good or bad for all other IPs? Weren’t they all the same?
The truth is that the open map and horse makes a huge difference. Some like it, some don’t.
Calverz
Member
Lol I was taking the piss. Iv completed it 3 times and hve 1000/1000 gamerscore on it
BossLackey
Gold Member
On a micro level, maybe. On a macro level, not even close. FROM's environmental design is second to none and this greatly influences enemy placement and type. Add to that actual build diversity and any engagement can be wildly different in ER.
Horizon may have flashier combat, but "should i use zappy arrow or fire arrow" isn't more dynamic than ER's combat.
EDIT: To be fair, there are plenty of bog standard encounters in ER.
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They both started at 89 on MC, so this is just your fanboy biased opinion.
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BossLackey
Gold Member
lmfao. You can't be serious.
Spy Kids has a 93% on Rotten Tomatoes.
The Batman has an 85%.
Therefore, Spy Kids is a better film.
I'm not talking about the wide variety of builds; for sure those are in ER. I'm talking about the beat to beat gameplay using established characters during a specific run. In ER, your combat encounters are largely defined by your build (and a great majority of that is your weapon if you're not a caster): you are probably engaging Rennala using the same tactics you did on Margit or will use on Radahn or, etc. etc. There's only so many ways to swing a greatsword.
Contrast with HFW: a fight with a Thunderjaw is not the same as with a Stalker as is with a etc. etc. On high difficulties these combat encounters are more than a rival for the flashy boss fights in ER. Then you add on the pre-fight prep you engage in or the items you actually have to use in this game (as opposed to just sitting in your bag, rarely used in ER) and how you approach combat is actually a question of who you are facing (which, other than a handful of enemies, you aren't really doing in ER for the most part) and how you've kitted Aloy out.
Agree to disagree that Horizon's, in particular FW's, combat is that shallow.
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Balducci30
Member
Doesn’t it play differently? ER solved my issue with most from games - if I was stuck at a boss I just went and explored a bunch of other shit and came back or didn’t come back. Save points are more generous, you get summons a horse - I feel like people acting like it should’ve just been a typical from game are missing what being open world really added to the experience.
Also re: the complaints about exploration and activities - there is so much optional weird shit to find that you don’t have to do at all to progress. Just because they’re set in one location and not a random event never made It less engaging.
DragonNCM
Member
This are "THE HARDCORE GAMERS" who trashing this game from the launch.
What is fun in games if you watch tutorials or walkthroughs on YouTube ?
Vyne
Can’t Git Gud
Really bro? I know you have talismans and stuff to make urself able to sneak in the game....
I think you were looking at that statement from the wrong context.
Re-read that paragraph and tell me what I was trying to criticize. Because for all I know stealth wasn't the main point there
Agree that the enemies turning on each other mechanic was in the game.
But I was implying if the mechanic was present in free-roam (without your input).
Like enemies would have territorial boundaries. Some would be able to wonder into other enemies territories. Then the offender and occupant would fight over a battle for control.
Don't you agree that would have made the world feel more dynamic than it was?
Bought the game for both PS5 and PC. stopped playing on PS5 when stuttering and frame drops would bring fps down to the low-30s from around 60fps.
Then I moved to my PC as I felt it might run differently for some reason. But it was the same deal technical wise.
Yes I could have used my controller to play the game on PC.
I don't know whether you have played on PC before, but for any game, open world or not, assigning those buttons to those actions are ridiculous on any level.
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i still think that botw is slightly better than ER for my tastes...but i have very little hope for botw 2 to be as good or ground breaking as the first one
the problem is not really the absence of questmarks or maps, ER issue is obtuseness.
when a guy tells you to meet in a region, it doesn't wait for you at he start of it, it waits for you in the middle of the level, in a place that takes a good amount of time to reach and that has no significance for the player because the info about why that place is significant is given by the character itself when you meet him there.
or when to progress a major quest you have to
talk to a doll for THREE times at a specific bonfire
in general, from wants their quest to be a group effort, he wants that frantic forum and discord discussion of people putting together pieces of their quest together, because one sngle person hitting every single checkpoint of one of the bigger quests in the order they were supposed to is at best unlikely.
the issue here is that the big discussions are usually just over after the first week or two, and whoever didn't took part because it has other shit to do,it's left with following guides and feeling lost.
but that's about the way you deliver info to the player and how you structure your quest, not about the lack of questmarks...make that npc tell me exactly where he is gonna stand by telling me, make that interactrion available at every bonfire and not a single one amongst dozens...put infos around the game that tells me where the npc that i have to meet in three different location in this humongous world, and not in easily missable obscure spots that i might miss and then never vist again in the entire playthrough.
DragonNCM
Member
ER is not a game what you can finish 100% in one playthrough. I'm still playing it with media blackout & I'm on my third playthrough, still getting new quests & getting dialogs what I never encountered before.
Also you can easily miss dialogs & quest progression if you just press skip dialog without reading.
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not being a game you finish in one playthrough means branching choices, not "i never went to this specific corner of the map so i missed the second step of this quest, now it's locked because i went too far in another quest"
that's just obtuse quest design
and no, i didn't skip dialogues.
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DragonNCM
Member
Yeah saddly there is moments when you are far in some quest you can get locked from finishing another but game design is like that because of ending choice's.
Philfrag
Banned
Elden Rings innovation lies in the open worlds stripped back nature. The contrast between it and modern open world games is quite striking. Mostly because of how it goes back to the roots of what open world games originally were about. The ubifying of open worlds have been happening for a while now and its been ruining the overall experience that open world games as a genre found strength in. That was exploration. The line between good exploration and bad exploration is a fine one. Mostly because the idea of getting lost can both be an opportunity and a great fear for the designer. You want the player to be able to navigate a world with it feeling mysterious whilst also be able to get their bearings. This can be done with landmarks that the player sees. Most open world games these days rely on markers and mini maps. I think this is down to bad world design, its a crutch to get the player from point a to point b. What Elden Ring did was go back to basics and also create an amazing world that facilitated both the feeling of mystery and progress. The reason why it feels like a breath of fresh air is because the industry hasn't been doing this for a long time and the genre greatly needed it. Especially at a AAA level. When people talk about Eldens Rings innovation I think this is to do with its success in a market place that had mostly abandoned this type of design. Yes its been done before but now with its proven successful its looking quite positive that studios like ubisoft will now follow suit and stop hand holding their players everywhere. There are so many great open world games out there that have been completely ruined by treating these worlds like a shopping mall or a zoo. Elden Ring throws you out there and guides you with your own eyes. The genius lies in the landmarks and the world they designed
I remember watching interviews from valve talking about how they would try and get the player to go to different places by designing the world a certain way when designing half life. Like having a flickering light above a door way or a sound you might hear down a corridor. The designers were trying to appeal to peoples senses so they unconsciously would be lead down a certain route. Its cute to listen to today because designers now are overwhelmingly just relying on quest markers and minimaps. I understand not everyone comes to souls games for the exploration, for a lot of people its just down to the combat. But i have enjoyed every single souls game simply for the exploration. Sure I love the combat but the exploration is what i'm coming back to these games for.
Where ever you travel in Elden Ring there is always something off in the distance, always something to be discovered if you just have a little faith in yourself to overcome the next hurdle. You can say its not innovative or try to dismantle its efforts but its overwhelming success lies in the industries failure to properly grasp what originally made open world games great. Maybe its just an argument of semantics. Maybe innovation is the wrong word, but Elden Ring is so good in these respects that it sure does feel like innovation and that's something to be respected.
I remember watching interviews from valve talking about how they would try and get the player to go to different places by designing the world a certain way when designing half life. Like having a flickering light above a door way or a sound you might hear down a corridor. The designers were trying to appeal to peoples senses so they unconsciously would be lead down a certain route. Its cute to listen to today because designers now are overwhelmingly just relying on quest markers and minimaps. I understand not everyone comes to souls games for the exploration, for a lot of people its just down to the combat. But i have enjoyed every single souls game simply for the exploration. Sure I love the combat but the exploration is what i'm coming back to these games for.
Where ever you travel in Elden Ring there is always something off in the distance, always something to be discovered if you just have a little faith in yourself to overcome the next hurdle. You can say its not innovative or try to dismantle its efforts but its overwhelming success lies in the industries failure to properly grasp what originally made open world games great. Maybe its just an argument of semantics. Maybe innovation is the wrong word, but Elden Ring is so good in these respects that it sure does feel like innovation and that's something to be respected.
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Guilty_AI
Member
Thats in the game. In fact, without using spells, it was possible to attract certain enemy types close to other types territories and they'd start fighting each other. I did that quite frequently early game when i was still weak.
If you mean traps, this game has no shortage of them, often far more well thought out than just a "smash X to free yourself". Like chests that teleport you to dangerous areas, floors that crumble and throw you in an enemy pit, enemies hidden in blind spots, etc. And it usually comes precisely with some strategic placed loot that induces you to carelessly walk into them.
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Fredrik
Member
That’s… in the game. That’s how I found out enemies could fight each other. How long did you say you played?
What are you talking about? You just plug in the controller and everything is automatically and perfectly mapped and you get correct button labels and all.
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That people like the game isn't the point. The point is whether the game design decisions matches the conversation around it. The first would be a criticism against the players, which would be pointless. The latter is the source of this discussion.
. . .and I find it funny that people need to defend this game on such a level as if they have been personally attacked for not viewing the game in the same way (note how none of what I said takes away from ER being an overall good game).
I played for well over 200 hours across PC and console. I didn't notice this outside of scripted encounters; it certainly isn't what I would call a feature instead of a happy-accident (at worst exploitable AI).
You're not really "listening" to what the OP is typing out. Where did they say you can't use a controller?
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