Support NeoGAF

[Astray]

So you think it's Microsoft rushing the release and sending Arkane/Redfall to death because they haven't been able to hit their business goals?

It makes sense, as I've noticed that developers/studios usually care a lot more about their games (and subsequent reception) that suits and executives that aren't a part of those studios.

But do you think Redfall will help them move consoles? I seriously doubt that. The game doesn't look anywhere near a system-seller. It looks very AA and indie-ish to me.

That Harvey Smith interview where he talked about dropping PS5 was kinda peculiar to me, almost like a fuck you to upper management on his way out or something. I might be wrong, but I firmly expect to at least see a management shake-up there somehow.

Redfall is not a system seller, but Microsoft bought that Bethesda pipeline in full, and just cancelling projects left and right because they aren't "first party quality" is just gonna raise alarm bells when they are still on an acquisition spree of big publishers.

It's not looking particularly good, but a drowning man would cling to a straw. It's survival mode for their console business and they need to do whatever to keep sales and hype going. The ecosystem thing they're doing is not completely invalid, but the most immediately lucrative path towards $$$ in the AA/AAA games biz is through the console route, and they need to keep that alive while they figure out how to deliver xCloud and calibrate Gamepass for profitablity (it can be done if they gradually reduce the offering imo).

 

[XXL]

Microsoft's First Party development is Cursed, something almost always goes wrong or is disappointing.

 

[Riky]

Like I said you're just sh8t stirring. When I saw Cyberpunk being played with an XBox pad and prompts. I didn't think it was running on an XBox One for one sec.
Most games when shown off even if they're holding an XBox Pad are running on a PC and you know that full well

Since all first party games launch day and date on PC then obviously they are going to show the best looking version pre release which is the top end PC version, to think otherwise is stupid.

 

[Ass of Can Whooping]

Completely un-tethered 4 player co-op maybe

Sounds like a job for the power of da cloud

 

[Topher]

People are really exaggerating with 30fps being unplayable with shooters. Destiny 2 on PS4/XB1 launched at 30fps and was perfectly playable and became popular on those platforms.

I get that this is a next gen only release and we're no longer on PS4/XB1 but 'unplayable' is just hyperbole. It's just weird to me that they concentrated on 4k and the game doesn't seem to be doing much to be CPU bound.

Only thing unplayable about it is the fact that I'm not going to play it at 30fps. That doesn't mean I couldn't. This sucks but folks shouldn't start acting like the game is somehow utterly broken.

 

[M1chl]

MS should have some standards in place and they should be enforced on devs. I don't care what opinion you might have on this, but Sony is doing it right. I might not enjoy much of their games, due to various reasons, but they all feel like a high-end product. MS was able to pull of just a hand full games in last decade and they should get the memo already.

How the fuck they could pull off Flight Sim, while struggling with this generic garbage is beyond me.

 

[GymWolf]

I never said consoles didn't need some sort of compromise to get to 60fps. Quote me where I said that. I did simply say that you don't need to compromise. Which is 100 percent correct. On PC. I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough but I thought you would be able to understand that.

It's also irrelevant anyway when the vast majority of games that have sold throughout it's history are 60fps. Which I also stated which is 100 percent correct.

So we are discussing semantics here, because for me, no compromises is the good ol 4k60 ultra details (i'm ok with turning down some settings with no virtual loss of course).

Anything below that, you are not playing the best version of the game, and those are compromises for me.

When i had a 2070 super it was still kinda better than a ps5 because i could do 1440p60 with a mix of high to ultra settings on most games or 4k30 with a lot of settings turned down, those were all compromises that i don't have to do anymore with a 4080 except for super heavy stuff like cyberpunk rtx recent patch.

 

[XXL]

MS should have some standards in place and they should be enforced on devs. I don't care what opinion you might have on this, but Sony is doing it right. I might not enjoy much of their games, due to various reasons, but they all feel like a high-end product. MS was able to pull of just a hand full games in last decade and they should get the memo already.

How the fuck they could pull off Flight Sim, while struggling with this generic garbage is beyond me.

Microsofts first party management is disasterous, this is a pattern. They shouldn't even be allowing Arkane to release this until the performance mode is finished. People need to stop making excuses for them and the answer is NOT acquiring more studios to manage.

 

[onQ123]

I still think this game will end up a sleeper hit in the long run.

 

[Represent.]

and I would say they should even go down to 720p if needed.

My god.

Sure let’s go all the way down to 240p, why not! I’m sure we could hit 240fps.

to me 60fps is a must

Again, if 60fps is a must then you’re seriously playing on the wrong platform. You’re going to have to buy a PC. That’s exactly what outlets like DF are trying to warn you about. Save up for that expensive graphics card because you will not get what you want on console as the gen advances. Console Gaming has never been about that. You’re living in some fantasy land.

Perfectly fine my ass.
Don't know on which monitor or TV you run your games but on OLED 30fps is a complete shitshow.

65” C2 OLED and yes.. 30fps has been perfectly. Fine.

In fact, more than fine… games like HFW and TLOU Part 1, RE4R, have looked and played utterly amazing.

we know you're a casual, you don't have to rub it in

You’re the casual one. Out here pushing for 720p 60fps games in 2023 instead of things like:

Better, actual destruction
Next gen physics
Much Larger scale battles
Vastly improved fidelity

ALL of which are more likely to happen at 30fps (on console)

These are the kind of things I want to see. Improvments that would enhance a gaming experience much more than… framerate.

It’s not rocket science. If you demand 60fps for every single game, then the PC is your platform. It is what it is.

 

[adamsapple]

Sounds like a job for the power of da cloud

I wish. I would love to see a documentary about this game post-release on what happened. The game was marketed with 60 FPS footage since the start which naturally makes people believe that's the target for the major releases.

 

[rickybooby87]

If they can not get this to 60fps at release, they should at least provide a 40fps mode for those with 120Hz-TVs.

Plaque Tale 2 did this iirc.

100%

40fps/120hz with a 4K target should be a standard minimum moving forward in all future releases.

They seem to have a lack of expertise in the "performance tuning/optimization" department. Like damn, hire some people and get it done. I think Microsoft should delay by however long it takes to get the issues worked out, and send over their A-Team that specializes in optimization (Similar to Naughty Dog/Sony's ICE team).

 

[Umbasaborne]

Why didn't they give an ETA for the 60 FPS patch release? It would have helped avoiding the shitstorm if their communication was more transparent. Did they really expect people to be perfectly fine after their "sorry guys, only 30 FPS for now" tweet?

Reads to me like “this game is on fire and we need to think about shipping it in a playable state before we can do anything else”. The only reason this hasn’t been delayed is because xbox games division cant take another bad pr hit after radio silence on most of their announced titles and multiple delays for games like starfield

 

[Interfectum]

Xbox fans on Twitter going after Zelda to defend Redfall at 30fps. Been watching the console wars for a long time but the copium there is pretty crazy.

 

[Riky]

I wish. I would love to see a documentary about this game post-release on what happened. The game was marketed with 60 FPS footage since the start which naturally makes people believe that's the target for the major releases.

I think we'll find it is CPU bound, looking at the disparity between Series X and S if it was GPU bound then running at 1440p 60fps wouldn't be a problem for Series X. Open world and open co-op, we'll know for sure with PC benchmarks.

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Better, actual destruction
Next gen physics

I've been waiting for this kind of "gameplay-first" next gen improvement for ages. I think I've been severely delusional since I saw the leap to Mario 64.

 

[rofif]

Here's an idea: Wait on releasing it until it's playable.

30 is playable. We played all previous gens at 30fps. Some of best games ever were 30 or even less.
It doesn’t matter. 30 fps would be a dream on ps3 lol

 

[Interfectum]

30 is playable. We played all previous gens at 30fps. Some of best games ever were 30 or even less.
It doesn’t matter. 30 fps would be a dream on ps3 lol

I agree 30 FPS is playable but a new IP like Redfall needs to check every box it can to establish itself. Being a FPS at 30 on a next gen console aint it and could potentially cut it at the kneecaps out the gate. They should delay until they get all the features they need into the game.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Xbox fans on Twitter going after Zelda to defend Redfall at 30fps. Been watching the console wars for a long time but the copium there is pretty crazy.

For fuck sake

 

[01011001]

30 is playable. We played all previous gens at 30fps. Some of best games ever were 30 or even less.
It doesn’t matter. 30 fps would be a dream on ps3 lol

Edison Cylinders are listenable. that doesn't mean we should find it ok if artists would start to only release their music on Edison Cylinders again.

30fps has to die - full stop

 

[Topher]

My god.

Sure let’s go all the way down to 240p, why not! I’m sure we could hit 240fps.

Again, if 60fps is a must then you’re seriously playing on the wrong platform. You’re going to have to buy a PC. That’s exactly what outlets like DF are trying to warn you about. Save up for that expensive graphics card because you will not get what you want on console as the gen advances. Console Gaming has never been about that. You’re living in some fantasy land.

Why are you pretending like consoles are the wrong platform for higher frame rates and the right platform for the best image quality? If you want the best image quality that can be achieved in gaming then put your money where you mouth is and buy a high end gaming PC. Your console damn sure isn't going to give you that.

 

[8BiTw0LF]

30 is playable. We played all previous gens at 30fps. Some of best games ever were 30 or even less.
It doesn’t matter. 30 fps would be a dream on ps3 lol

I stopped playing 30fps games in 2017, because they became unplayable for me.

 

[TheTony316]

Xbox fans on Twitter going after Zelda to defend Redfall at 30fps. Been watching the console wars for a long time but the copium there is pretty crazy.

 

[DenchDeckard]

Those high quality games released, reviewed well, they've sold well, people have enjoyed them, and they released with 60 fps modes. One of them even has DLC due to release shortly for everyone to enjoy.

When you start a thread on the premise of telling everyone that enjoyed those games that they are wrong then of course you're going to get people telling the OP and the small handful of people backing him (along with their alts) that they are pissing in a river. But don't worry, the convenient timing of those threads hasn't gone unnoticed.

So what exactly is your beef? Do you not want good games? It's not anyone else's fault that Microsoft are continually fumbling the bag, so all you have left is to tell everyone else to stop enjoying themselves.

The same pattern happened last year around the time that Ragnorak got confirmed for 2022, meanwhile Starfield was getting delayed. You had your meltdowns and then all you had left was to attack everyone who doesn't have any reason to wallow in misery. What a joyless way to live out your hobby.

What's the convenient timing on those threads?

Also, what's wrong with people like me who legit put like 60 hours into a game highlighting what they thought were clear issues and reviewers got wrong?

Especially when we know reviews for these big games are usually rushed, mainlined by press. Sometimes on the easiest difficulty and are absolutely loaded with press kits for their reviewers. They even hire old press reviewers to work on the games so all their friends give their mates game a good score.

Let's not pretend this review industry isn't borked for these big games.

But I'm sure you will claim I'm rocking the conspiracy theory hat.

 

[oldergamer]

So they're either fostering a lazy environment because they allow developers to take more time and also forcing them to release a game 'early' despite giving it a 12 month extension?



Completely un-tethered 4 player co-op maybe. But, again, not having a 60 FPS mode ... especially for a shooter .. at launch is still a very bad look.

no its not. That's a ridiculous statement. Gameplay is king, locked framerate is queen. 60fps are a nice to have. not a must.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Did not see this one yesterday. That's an unfortunate result, hopefully they get the patch done quickly. I might wait on the patch to start this one.

I had been looking forward to checking this one out, but I can wait a month or two. No biggie.

 

[adamsapple]

Did not see this one yesterday. That's an unfortunate result, hopefully they get the patch done quickly. I might wait on the patch to start this one.

I had been looking forward to checking this one out, but I can wait a month or two. No biggie.

Yeah, at this point I'm probably not playing this at launch unless the patch is day 1.

It's unfortunate and I was looking forward but I can wait a little for a better playing experience, IMO.

 

[rofif]

Edison Cylinders are listenable. that doesn't mean we should find it ok if artists would start to only release their music on Edison Cylinders again.

30fps has to die - full stop

This is stupid comparison and wrong way of thinking.
I want graphics pushed. I don't really care how it runs. Some of my fav games ran terribly or only at 30fps on 360 and ps4.
What I remember about the games are graphics. Not 60fps.

Sure, I play 60fps 90% of games this gen but if the graphics will be great like tlou2 was again, 30 is fine. I finished forbidden west at 30

 

[01011001]

no its not. That's a ridiculous statement. Gameplay is king, locked framerate is queen. 60fps are a nice to have. not a must.

it is a must NOW
60fps has thankfully become the standard again, "60fps" was literally trending on twitter... and I love it

fuck any dev that tries to release a 30fps game on these new consoles

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well, there you have it, it's day one on gamepass so it doesn't matter.

Beta Tested on Game Pass™

Such great conditioning by MS and their online shills.

Race to the bottom.

 

[rofif]

I stopped playing 30fps games in 2017, because they became unplayable for me.

The games didn't became unplayable. You did.
Games never changed. You could still enjoy it just the same if you gave it a chance.
30fps is more stable than ever even.
One problem I see this gen is how high input lag is at 30fps. Compare demons souls 30fps to bloodborne 30fps... and demons GOT 75MS HIGHER INPUT LAG wtf

Of course 60 is better. Nobody argues that.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Yeah, at this point I'm probably not playing this at launch unless the patch is day 1.

It's unfortunate and I was looking forward but I can wait a little for a better playing experience, IMO.

I hope the 30fps at launch doesn't give players a bad feel for the game since console players have been playing shooters at 60fps forever.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Did not see this one yesterday. That's an unfortunate result, hopefully they get the patch done quickly. I might wait on the patch to start this one.

I had been looking forward to checking this one out, but I can wait a month or two. No biggie.

The developer has pedigree and has been a critical success with their games. It wouldn’t surprise me that despite this 30fps news, the game still reviews well.

 

[01011001]

This is stupid comparison and wrong way of thinking.
I want graphics pushed. I don't really care how it runs. Some of my fav games ran terribly or only at 30fps on 360 and ps4.
What I remember about the games are graphics. Not 60fps.

Sure, I play 60fps 90% of games this gen but if the graphics will be great like tlou2 was again, 30 is fine. I finished forbidden west at 30

wow... so you don't care about gameplay then? because Forbidden West has awful input lag at 30fps.

but then again, the whole game is trash.

60fps or fuck off, that's my view on anything releasing on Series X or PS5

 

[DaGwaphics]

The developer has pedigree and has been a critical success with their games. It wouldn’t surprise me that despite this 30fps news, the game still reviews well.

Hopefully. The overall experience would still be the same regardless. It's more the player base for shooters that will complain.

 

[rofif]

wow... so you don't care about gameplay then? because Forbidden West has awful input lag at 30fps.

but then again, the whole game is trash.

60fps or fuck off, that's my view on anything releasing on Series X or PS5

It got about normal input lag at 30fps. Not as bad as other 30fps games this gen like demons souls.
fps got nothing to do with gameplay

 

[GHG]

What's the convenient timing on those threads?

Also, what's wrong with people like me who legit put like 60 hours into a game highlighting what they thought were clear issues and reviewers got wrong?

Especially when we know reviews for these big games are usually rushed, mainlined by press. Sometimes on the easiest difficulty and are absolutely loaded with press kits for their reviewers. They even hire old press reviewers to work on the games so all their friends give their mates game a good score.

Let's not pretend this review industry isn't borked for these big games.

But I'm sure you will claim I'm rocking the conspiracy theory hat.

See there it is again - "everyone else is wrong, my opinion is correct". And you wonder why those threads have seen the responses they have. The fact that reviewers have to rush through games and end up forming the opinion that they arrive at isn't the boon you think it is for your stance - there were plenty people in those threads who shared the opinion of the OP whom also happened to rush and mainline through those games.

The only thing that's borked is multi-trillion dollar businesses failing to get quality games out on a consistent basis and then being afforded all the excuses in the world resulting in them blaming anyone but themselves.

 

[Astray]

30fps would probably be more palatable to people if the visuals were knock-out, industry-leading stuff, but it honestly isn't, and the collective freak-out is proving that even those that hyped it up (like Colt Eastwood) weren't fully convinced that it was, but pretended they were for engagement.

Game might ultimately be a good PC pick-up, but its core concept is just not for me.

 

[gothmog]

That Harvey Smith interview where he talked about dropping PS5 was kinda peculiar to me, almost like a fuck you to upper management on his way out or something. I might be wrong, but I firmly expect to at least see a management shake-up there somehow.

Redfall is not a system seller, but Microsoft bought that Bethesda pipeline in full, and just cancelling projects left and right because they aren't "first party quality" is just gonna raise alarm bells when they are still on an acquisition spree of big publishers.

It's not looking particularly good, but a drowning man would cling to a straw. It's survival mode for their console business and they need to do whatever to keep sales and hype going. The ecosystem thing they're doing is not completely invalid, but the most immediately lucrative path towards $$$ in the AA/AAA games biz is through the console route, and they need to keep that alive while they figure out how to deliver xCloud and calibrate Gamepass for profitablity (it can be done if they gradually reduce the offering imo).

Microsoft is just terrible at owning studios. They say they are hands off but it's more like not there at all. I've been in management situations like that in the past and while it's fun not having any real accountability for a while it sucks when you actually need accountability to make decisions and deliverables.

 

[Heisenberg007]

Again, if 60fps is a must then you’re seriously playing on the wrong platform. You’re going to have to buy a PC. That’s exactly what outlets like DF are trying to warn you about. Save up for that expensive graphics card because you will not get what you want on console as the gen advances. Console Gaming has never been about that. You’re living in some fantasy land.

That's not how Microsoft advertised the Series X.

You’re the casual one. Out here pushing for 720p 60fps games in 2023 instead of things like:

Better, actual destruction
Next gen physics
Much Larger scale battles
Vastly improved fidelity

ALL of which are more likely to happen at 30fps (on console)

These are the kind of things I want to see. Improvments that would enhance a gaming experience much more than… framerate.

It’s not rocket science. If you demand 60fps for every single game, then the PC is your platform. It is what it is.

Redfall has 30 FPS and literally has NONE of those things.

 

[yamaci17]

It got about normal input lag at 30fps. Not as bad as other 30fps games this gen like demons souls.
fps got nothing to do with gameplay

whatever it may be; it should be 60 fps man. 30 fps on fps games is pretty rough. I can understand for something like cpunk metro exodus and stuff but not for this one

i dunno why them bethesda studios do not use each others engines or stuff. idtech is pretty optimized they used it before. what is with this unreal engine passion

 

[Poltz]

It's just common and it's not hiding shit. It was made clear when Bethesda held an event in London a few weeks back for the press and some lucky gamers, that it was being played on a PC

You don’t think thats odd? The company is trying to sell you a $500 box.

 

[phil_t98]

Sounds like a job for the power of da cloud

oh dear

bringing up the cloud thing. the game will be fine at 30 FPS but its a shame we have to wait for 60FPS with no valid reason given

 

[Represent.]

That's not how Microsoft advertised the Series X.

Only amateurs should be drinking that kool-aid. These are the same talking heads that said cross-gen games wouldn't hold back current-gen games. We all knew that was 100% a lie.

Redfall has 30 FPS and literally has NONE of those things.

Thats simply because the devs are incompetent when it comes to tech.

The game is just unambitious on many levels. Welcome to modern games.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Hello, is this Phil Spencer? Hi Phil. How the hell am I supposed to take over Redfall at 30fps a second, Phil??

 

[Pedro Motta]

MS should have some standards in place and they should be enforced on devs. I don't care what opinion you might have on this, but Sony is doing it right. I might not enjoy much of their games, due to various reasons, but they all feel like a high-end product. MS was able to pull of just a hand full games in last decade and they should get the memo already.

How the fuck they could pull off Flight Sim, while struggling with this generic garbage is beyond me.

Well, I don't know the state of it now, but at launch Flight Sim on XSX ran below 30 fps on most scenarios with huge stutters, extra long loading times etc.

 

[M1chl]

Well, I don't know the state of it now, but at launch Flight Sim on XSX ran below 30 fps on most scenarios with huge stutters, extra long loading times etc.

More or less that was alleviated as far as I am concerned (I don't have FPS counter on Xbox), I sank already like 300 hours between PC and Xbox and simply love it, one of my games of forever. But I do love flying even in the real world, I have PPL licence. Bare that in mind.

 

[Dane]

Well, I don't know the state of it now, but at launch Flight Sim on XSX ran below 30 fps on most scenarios with huge stutters, extra long loading times etc.

I've played on PC at launch, game was extremely CPU or GPU bound, even recommended specs weren't getting 60 FPS

 

[Team Andromeda]

You don’t think thats odd? The company is trying to sell you a $500 box.

Trolling !!! Bye,bye

 

[Dane]

Weird shit is how this game for mediocre that is, managed to get all the hate attention, not even Gotham Knights and Forspoken that ran as low as 700p got that much of discussion.