Heisenberg007
Gold Journalism
Or ... Morgan Paidman.
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DF: The Matrix Awakens Tech Analysis + PS5 vs Xbox Series S/X Performance Analysis
- Thread starter onQ123
- Start date
adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
NX said he'll have the Halo Infinite video and a performance video on this Matrix demo out in the coming week.
Not sure about DF, but I think their 50 minute video was enough for the time being. Unless this demo gets an update or gets a PC release, I don't see any point for more videos on this.
vpance
Member
Games using this won't be out til 2023-24 anyways. Nothing a boatload of memory and DS can't solve at that point. As more and more games move in the direction of UE5 level efficiency of streaming, I imagine the spare VRAM sitting in PCs will go to good use again, just in a different way. SSD performance requirements will be able to stay pretty flexible I think.
Some screens I captured today:
SlimySnake I actually do think the matrix filter is making it look more realistic. my 3rd screenshot
your morgan freeman shot is incredible
Turn down your exposure
onesvenus
Member
Surely you can understand that to develop something for a console, even a "not public demo" as you call The Valley of the ancients even though it was shown in video, you need experience with said console, can't you? I never claimed they had more or less experience than what they have with the PS5, that's entirely different, but to say Epic has no experience with XSX/XSS, even when UE5 Fortnite has already been released, is delusional at best
Again, I never said their work wasn't focused on the Xseries versions. I said that Epic themselves stated some of the optimizations The Coalition did were done on the hardware-agnostic side of UE5.
no, in the initial theres the real keanu
Nhranaghacon02
Banned
If I remember Correctly, Only when he is Standing Next to the Mirror, and Reflected In The Mirror - they swap to film for that instance to prove you couldn't establish when the swap was even made.
Fredrik
Member
I need to try that. How empty does it look?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Neo leaves Jim Ryan and Phil Spencer a Voicemail
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Very, but you can still create traffic jams.
Fredrik
Member
Oh okay, I don’t know if anything it gets me concerned that we have to create a Cyberpunk-console city to even get stable 30fps.
This demo has pushed our expectations forward but how realistic is it that a real game can look like this on these consoles?
I think a scaled back 60fps performance mode is needed here, if only to help lowering our expectations.
Vognerful
Member
Nothing stays the same way so what's the point of the question?
More appropriate question, is when do expect that HDD to be obsolete, and then similar to SataIII SSD?
Md Ray
Member
God damn! DRIVER remake built using UE5. I wanna play it right now!!God seeing that second gif makes me want a Driver remake!
And I agree, there is no turning back now, we just need to see if higher fps is also doable on the consoles or if it’s better to invest in PC gaming from now on.
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John Wick
Member
Sure Jan! Why don't you make something better?
You just can't please some people
If you read DF's interview, you will see how the small team in charge of the Matrix demo has nothing to do with those who are in charge of Fornite, but they are the same ones who created the first UE5 demo specifically for PS5, which took them several years and even participated in the design of the console itself. It means that this small team has been creating, developing and optimizing UE5 content and its new features (Nanite, Lumen, etc.) on the Sony console for several years, but their experience in XS has been practically "nil".
What you say is correct, this is how it works ... but in this case there are important conditions that make the situation different. A situation where a greater experience in a specific hardware is a key point when obtaining a suitable optimization:
1. We are talking about an engine in development, which has not even been released, updating codes continuously. With features still in testing and testing on different platforms. This has nothing to do with upgrading to UE5 from Fornite which doesn't use most of the new next gen features. Nor is it like developing games on existing engines.
2. It is a small team that, in addition to creating the demo, would have to launch several versions and one of them (XSS) which is quite a challenge. What's left？ Well, that team needs outside help to release 3 decent versions of a demo that has to be published.
My opinion and feeling for the published interviews is indicated. That without the help of TC we would surely have had worse optimized versions of XSeries ... or who knows if they got to discard versions and focus on PS5 which they know perfectly well.
That Epic team may know the Xseries hardware, but when you are at a time when nothing is finished (neither the engine, nor the tools of the new consoles) the fact of having worked for several years on hardware and even participating in its design is an important advantage over the opposite.
What TC has done is to help solve that deficit of the small Epic team and incidentally do the work of adapting the XSeries versions that surely they were not trained or with the means to finish them in a decent way.
From here I think I am being clear. And if I do not apologize because I am unable to do better. It would already be a matter of whether or not I agree with my opinion / feelings. If it is the latter, then I respect it because I am not in a position to guarantee 100% that it is so, they are only sensations after reading the different articles and interviews.
I understand you know, you're saying that specific team has no seriesX experience so they needed TC to help on that front. My apologies
Lol no need for apologies
... Surely more of my fault for not knowing how to best express my thoughts in a language other than native .
Dr.D00p
Member
If anything it would probably run worse on the PC. This demo has been specifically targeted at the consoles with all sorts of optimisations that simply won't be possible if released for the PC and all its possible hardware permutations.
..throwing brute force PC power at it would only get you so far. Sure you could push the resolution up way past what these console demos run at, but the price in FPS would be severe.
azertydu91
Hard to Kill
Nah they just create a demo and instead of putting .exe at the end they just copy it twice and put .xsx and .xss and pray the lord that it works.
That was sarcastic even though we've had our fair share of disagrements in the past, I'm totally with you on that, of course the creators of an engine will test,try,optimize for every console and it is quite naive to think that they don't.Of course they can be more familiar with a console over an other but I don't think it goes to quite a extent to be called significant or even relevant.
And I even agree with your second part, coalition found a way do to a better motion blur and it got implemented in the engine for all.And of course they probably had a hand in the XSX/S optimization, I don't see what's so controversial about it.Do people really need to see either all black and all white?
Most of the time it is more nuanced than that but it is easier to view everything in either good or bad.
DevilMayFlyForAWhiteGuy
Member
I already replied elaborating more to Sosokrates, but yeah the no pop in, lighting, and NPC are nice; I don’t think RT is worth it if tanks performance too much on console though.
Also I hadn’t initially watched any analysis videos, so I was under the impression that the cutscene section was completely scripted, which I was wrong about as the car crashes were all real time. That’s my mistake. Still not too excited if sub 1440p/30fps becomes a norm this gen. Hopefully it’ll only be a thing in open world games.
Ultradsa
Member
According to the video time stamp 36.28 the SSD optimizations aren't required for the asset streaming in this video, not to say you wouldn't at least need a standard SSD or even a NVME drive but you do not need the specialized extra layers on the next gen consoles nor the compression decompression methods. They stated cpu/gpu optimizations are holding back the framerate.
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
Actually, I think the one thing that'll make the PC version feel worse than it may be is locking the FPS to 24 in all the character moments.
You can have the beefiest of PC's running everything at a solid 4K/60 clip but you will then see sudden drops to 24 whenever characters are on screen.
There'll be a massive disconnect.
Ultradsa
Member
That's totally understandable and makes perfect sense to illustrate how CG and real assets can coexist and not feel too different from one another. I just want to free roam that city at 60FPS.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
You need to amend these tweets. What words are those?
staticshock
Member
Both the creator of lumen and nanite ran the demo on their respective pc with just a normal ssd and no direct storage or rtx io.
Epic Game's Brian Karis Runs Unreal Engine 5 PS5 Demo on his PC - YouTube
Daniel Wright also SHOCKS Gamers by running UE5 PS5 Demo on his PC! - YouTube
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
I think HDDs have about another 3 years in them. By 2025 they'll be dead for the mass majority of games.
Md Ray
Member
Do you mean me or Alex?
Basically...
His 2560x1440 and 2880x1620 res counts are actually 2560x1066 and 2880x1200, respectively, due to cinemascope black bars in cut-scenes.
1080p found in one shot was one w/o the black bars (16:9), so it's full HD (1920x1080).
Snake29
RSI Employee of the Year
I wasn’t talking about this demo.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Alex, with his autocorrect fails. I was just being cheeky.
yurinka
Member
Md Ray
Member
Md Ray
Member
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
I dont think of it like that.
I look at RDR2 and I think what could R* do with the hardware of current gen.
The no Lods of matrix demo is not necessary all the time when you are walking or driving about, who really is focusing on the far distance innthe majority of play?, this is more appreciated when flying in a plane or swinging through the city like spiderman
Also the texture quality, asset geometry and character models are nothing to write home about in the matrix open world.
I dont think indirect realtime global illumination will be an issue for games on current gen
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Fredrik
Member
If I’m not mistaken this engine is already removing the triangles that can’t be seen to leave more details on what can be seen, effectively means that it’s already dropping draw distance details when possible.
yurinka
Member
This is only an early tech demo running on a wip unfinished engine, focusing on photorealism and showcasing all their new features than to focus on optimizing to get a great fps count.
With the final version of the engine and extra optimizations I think they would be able to achieve stable 30fps looking 99% like that. That would be the case for a commercial game, where they could also make an option for stable 60fps lowering other stuff like resolution, RT and so on.
More or less. The other engines already removed triangles that can't be seen (hidden by other objects closer to the camera, stuff outside the camera, parts of the objects that aren't facing to the camera) and swapped 3D objects with versions of them with a lower triangle count for when being far from the camera (LOD), but had only a few versions of each object that had to be made individually by the artists.
This engine basically does a more optimized version of that in real time using the lastest GPU hardware to reduce a lot of related work. They remove a lot of tricks they did in the past to simulate extra detail on models and textures which are no longer needed thanks to new powerful GPUs, big memories and super fast SSDs. So the memory space and GPU and CPU work spent on these tricks goes to instead simply stream very detailed models, scale them back to what the camera sees/perspective can show in that moment (using new related hardware acceleration) and same goes with the textures (now there's only one per object, no normals/etc needed) and with lighting (having real time global illumination they no longer need some old tricks they did use for lighting and shadows).
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Because you realize it's just a sandbox tech demo and no real game there. No dynamic time of day either.The more I play, the less impressed I get
that is -I think it's incredible but I've cooled down on it a bit
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
No doubt, asset's geometry is no doubt higher, but it does not result in much of a visual improvement.
I mean a lot of things in a modern citys environment don't actually have a lot of a geometry.
Gameplay Character models could definitely benefit with more geometry though.
Environment geometry imo were the things that needed the least visual improvement, imo effects (lighting, particle, fluid,smoke, fire, wind etc) and animation within the environment is what really needs improving.
rofif
Banned
I love this stuff. Still a lot of fun with it.
You just start to realize how generic it looks.... which is the exact point
Now I am thinking about maybe finally playing that spider man game... Remaster or Miles Morales for ps5 ?
Lethal01
Member
Being able to rotate the sun means it should be treated as any game with a dynamic time of day. The processing would be the same
rofif
Banned
there is some cheating because you cannot move sun up and down. I have a feeling that building shadowmaps are baked or precalculated for each degree
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DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Remaster, then Miles. I am going to start the remaster this evening, I think.I love this stuff. Still a lot of fun with it.
You just start to realize how generic it looks.... which is the exact point
Now I am thinking about maybe finally playing that spider man game... Remaster or Miles Morales for ps5 ?
Lethal01
Member
They aren't, the light is totally dynamic, they just aren't setting up a proper time of day system for this demo.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Not saying it can't do it, but standing there and doing it yourself is not as fun as sitting on top of a building and watching a sunrise to sunset going into night with all the lights lighting up.
Which how many light sources there were when you're flying above at night is quite impressive.
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rofif
Banned
there is no way to get spider-man remastered standalone ?!
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
I don't believe so at the moment, unless you can find a voucher code from physical online.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think if you look at the fact that the far more impressive chase sequence runs at 30 fps locked, it's possible that more curated/controlled and somewhat linear games like TLOU and Uncharted can definitely look that good. Even the open world only drops frames when there is literally 50,000 cars and 50,000 pedestrians roaming around. You can reduce the traffic and pedestrian density and the game pretty much never drops frames which means a less busy world like Horizon, Ghost of Tsushima, Halo Infinite and linear games like Guardians of the Galaxy might not have to worry about that while still rendering photorealistic worlds and character models.
The engine's TSR technique is actually really good when you are standing still or walking. It only starts shimmering when you are driving around at fast speeds so again, if your game doesnt need cars or fast traversal, you can effectively cut your next gen resolution budget by 3/4th and settle for 1080p. Guardians of the Galaxy looks stunning in 4k, but imagine if they had 4x more power. Same goes for Ratchet. Native 4k 30 fps; so many GPU cycles wasted on rendering pixels when they couldve pushed the fidelity instead. Hell, they are running the game at 40 fps at native 4k now so if they settle for 1080p 30 fps with TSR, they wouldve had 5x more GPU resources to play around with. The game already looks like a Pixar movie in cutscenes and on some planets, just imagine what they can do with 5x more GPU power.
TBH, I always had expectations of photorealism. Ever since I saw the Unreal Rebirth demo back in March 2019. It was running on a single 1080 Ti at 1080p 60 fps. The PS5 is basically a 1080 Ti with ray tracing. Give or take 10%. It was always going to have photorealistic environments if devs didnt shackle themselves to last gen consoles.
Just earlier this year, people here asked why I wasnt so impressed by Horizon. They thought I was high for assuming Avatar quality graphics were possible this gen. I even remember making some gifs from the movie. A few days later, Ubisoft surprisingly announced an Avatar game that looked almost as good as the movie. People dismissed it as a BS inengine demo given Ubisoft's track record, but devs went on record to talk about how they are using ray tracing for everything from lighting to reflections to foliage shadows and refractions. They are using the SSD to greatly enhance speed of flight and packing together dense environments since they no longer have to worry about creating fake loading areas.
After the Matrix, this looks possible. Even if Ubisoft downgrades it, ND or Rockstar will get there eventually.
assurdum
Banned
The hell you are talking about. The team who developed the first presentation of UE5 hasn't worked for years on ps5 but just 9tnhs if I'm not wrong. lol. Another story it's what Cerny did in tandem with Epic to design the ps5 hardware but UE5 is completely independent to the ps5 design.
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RoadHazard
Gold Member
I think if you look at the fact that the far more impressive chase sequence runs at 30 fps locked, it's possible that more curated/controlled and somewhat linear games like TLOU and Uncharted can definitely look that good. Even the open world only drops frames when there is literally 50,000 cars and 50,000 pedestrians roaming around. You can reduce the traffic and pedestrian density and the game pretty much never drops frames which means a less busy world like Horizon, Ghost of Tsushima, Halo Infinite and linear games like Guardians of the Galaxy might not have to worry about that while still rendering photorealistic worlds and character models.
The engine's TSR technique is actually really good when you are standing still or walking. It only starts shimmering when you are driving around at fast speeds so again, if your game doesnt need cars or fast traversal, you can effectively cut your next gen resolution budget by 3/4th and settle for 1080p. Guardians of the Galaxy looks stunning in 4k, but imagine if they had 4x more power. Same goes for Ratchet. Native 4k 30 fps; so many GPU cycles wasted on rendering pixels when they couldve pushed the fidelity instead. Hell, they are running the game at 40 fps at native 4k now so if they settle for 1080p 30 fps with TSR, they wouldve had 5x more GPU resources to play around with. The game already looks like a Pixar movie in cutscenes and on some planets, just imagine what they can do with 5x more GPU power.
TBH, I always had expectations of photorealism. Ever since I saw the Unreal Rebirth demo back in March 2019. It was running on a single 1080 Ti at 1080p 60 fps. The PS5 is basically a 1080 Ti with ray tracing. Give or take 10%. It was always going to have photorealistic environments if devs didnt shackle themselves to last gen consoles.
Just earlier this year, people here asked why I wasnt so impressed by Horizon. They thought I was high for assuming Avatar quality graphics were possible this gen. I even remember making some gifs from the movie. A few days later, Ubisoft surprisingly announced an Avatar game that looked almost as good as the movie. People dismissed it as a BS inengine demo given Ubisoft's track record, but devs went on record to talk about how they are using ray tracing for everything from lighting to reflections to foliage shadows and refractions. They are using the SSD to greatly enhance speed of flight and packing together dense environments since they no longer have to worry about creating fake loading areas.
After the Matrix, this looks possible. Even if Ubisoft downgrades it, ND or Rockstar will get there eventually.
The chase sequence definitely isn't locked to 30. First of all the non-playable scenes are 24fps (which is an artistic choice), but then there are definitely dropped frames there and there too. In particular when there's explosions, drops every time.
Reality? You are telling us that the first demo on UE5 specific for PS5, that was presented more than a year and a half ago, was created in 1 day
The first demo was created in 1 year and was based on PS5 which Epic helped design. Add that since then more than a year and a half have passed and thus you get that (at least) 2 years of experience developing and testing the new technologies of UE5 on PS5 even if your intention is to ignore what it means to be co-designers of the same console and the knowledge it generates.
In other words, is objetively to said that the experience of that team in optimizing the PS5 is vastly superior to what they had on XSeries before The Coalition took action.
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