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God of War creator (David Scott Jaffe) criticizes the high difficulty of games like Metroid Dread, Kena and Returnal
- Thread starter fermcr
- Start date
JimboJones
Member
My 8 year old nephew got to the exact place with the bad design and within about 7 seconds of entering the room had blasted through the blocks.
He's been dying a lot but the auto save makes the game bearable.
He's been dying a lot but the auto save makes the game bearable.
EverythingsOverrated
Member
I actually like that we're seeing the return of higher difficulty games. There was a point in the 360/PS3 gen where games started to be too damn easy on default difficulty levels and then often unbalanced at the higher difficulties so you were left with a game that was either too easy or filled with weird difficulty spikes that were obviously not well tuned.
...and yeah, Dread is not that hard. It's got a really well balanced difficulty level.
...and yeah, Dread is not that hard. It's got a really well balanced difficulty level.
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Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Keihart
Member
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Edgelord79
Gold Member
Its incredible how fast everyone had turned on him just because he thought a portion of Metroid was designed badly and he was hyperbolic with his phrasing (not like this is a surprise to anyone who's watched him before).
Talk about a tribe mentality. People need to relax.
Talk about a tribe mentality. People need to relax.
Spukc
always chasing the next thrill
He is one of the exiled now
We do not speak of his name
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Ezquimacore
Banned
this right here should end the thread
GreetingsMortal
Member
This is so damn weird coming from the guy who told people to suck it and git gud when they complained about Twisted Metal 2011’s campaign being too hard 10 years ago
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01011001
Banned
well it wasn't badly designed if you IQ is above 90 and you see the very obviously layed out path...
getting stuck in this Metroid game is literally like failing an IQ test, the Leveldesign could not be more clear in leading you.
sadly nowadays everyone is used to games that show you waypoint markers and red blinking UI elements, you can tell it's been dumbing down not only the games recently but inadvertently also their players.
like google and Wikipedia dumbs down people because they think and remember stuff for them.
Decontamination Silo
Banned
Have the years of soylent consumption taken hold? Is his strength waning? Eat a steak Jaffe. Jackhammer your women, light a cigar and try again.
JohnnyFootball
GerAlt-Right. Ciriously.
This is the same motherfucker who put ridiculous sections such as the spiked column and Blades of Hades in the original God of War.
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Dr Bass
Member
This is not what happened at all, or why it happened.
Your retort here is like when people act like complete asses towards someone else, then when called out on it respond "You're so sensitive, geez!" Nope. Those kinds of people are just asses and hate taking personality responsibility for what they actually did.
No tribe mentality.
Pegasus Actual
Member
Uncharted, Call of Duty, Animal Crossing; all leading the march towards super easy games.Maybe it's we-don't-keep-score-and-everybody-is-a-winner generation coming into their own as designers but I fucking HATE THIS shit. And it's not an age thing;I NEVER liked it.But it wasn't so rampant. It's like devs WANT to push Players away who want a well designed challenge.
MajinSweet4
Member
Personally I think it's cool that we can have a small amount of challenging games that are not ashamed of being sorta hard. Weird takes from the likes of Jaffe that this is some how hurting the industry (?). Very gatekeepy and strange reaction to a small handful of games you personally don't like.
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DenchDeckard
Moderated wildly
brilliant video, I did just like all those other normal players did. I hope Jaffe can accept that he is just wrong in this video.
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MajinSweet4
Member
My favorite thing about this is that for most players its automatic. They see an enemy so they start shooting at it. And in doing so the path is cleared and the player instantly sees the result of the action. It's not even seen as a puzzle to most players because the game has made this such an elegant part of the design. I find it baffling that someone would point at this and claim it's "bad game design". This is basic stuff that I guess we take for granted now. Level design and enemy placement that naturally points your player in the right direction. No need for quest markers and tool tips.
Edit: I actually just appreciated this segment of the game more watching Jaffe struggle with it. Jaffe hasn't learned to free aim yet and is still jump shooting entirely. This puzzle segment is also teaching him that free aim is going to be needed as he progresses through the game. I think for most people this is a non issue, because when they were taught free aim they just started using it naturally. But for players like Jaffe who can't get a handle on the games base mechanics, this is a easy way to nudge them into understanding why you should try using them.
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Mister Wolf
Gold Member
Ezquimacore
Banned
good thing is Metroid only got better with time and now it's accessible to everyone. Try to play metroid 1 or even Super Metroid without a guide or youtube videos and you will have to git gud yes or yes.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Play journey if you don't want a challenge.
Or maybe a game like the souls titles should tease you when you die too often? Like God of War used to do
It has never been a giant problem that not everyone got to see every part of a game.. people would just say, oh man I can't get to level 5 this game is too hard... Then they would try again.
They should even add extra hard areas in open world games, ao hard you can't overpower them by grinding, kind of "elite" zones that give you some extra items.
BTW, too many games have levels these days.
Or maybe a game like the souls titles should tease you when you die too often? Like God of War used to do
It has never been a giant problem that not everyone got to see every part of a game.. people would just say, oh man I can't get to level 5 this game is too hard... Then they would try again.
They should even add extra hard areas in open world games, ao hard you can't overpower them by grinding, kind of "elite" zones that give you some extra items.
BTW, too many games have levels these days.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
Neither of these games is very hard, maybe you kind of need a map for the first Metroid... But Super Metroid never challenged me seriously, I never felt the need for a guide when I played it the first time, it's made in a way that you barely need to explore (it's always clear where to go next).
MajinSweet4
Member
I see posts like this all the time and they never make a lick of sense so I'll try my best to explain. In a well made challenging game, the "git gud" part of the game is the game. It is why people play it, it's what makes it fun and interesting. So to say "I want to play this game about gitting gud, but I don't want to do the part where I git gud" makes no sense. It would be like saying "I'd love to watch comedy's, but I'm really not into the whole laughing thing." Or "I would love to get into more action movies, but they always have these set pieces with explosions, car chases or fist fights!" You might be falling prey to classic fear of missing out. You hear people talk about Dark Souls and how amazing it is. Or how Metroid came back and it's sick. So you naturally think, oh man, I wish I could enjoy those things to! But if you fundamentally don't like these games, asking the devs to have make a version of the game where the whole point of them is removed isn't going to work.
Hugare
Member
The thing you dense people cant understand is that we can have both
It can be a rollercoaster FOR YOU, just play on Hard mode or whatever, if you want your "true gamer experience"
.Or it could be a carousel for people that just want to enjoy the story, the art, whatever.
In Mass Effect 3 there was an easier than easy mode called Story Mode that was basicaly "just watch the goddamn thing"
Did I play it? Hell no.
But I bet your ass that there were some people that played that way and enjoyed it.
And you could still play the game on Normal/Hard. Didnt affect shit on your experience.
So no, I cant understand how options are bad, since by doing so it doesnt affect your enjoyment.
"Oh but in Sekiro the enjoyment comes from dying many times and finally succeeding", FOR YOU, you dumbass. Maybe some people just want to die a little less, experience the story, the different environments.
Gatekeeping HOW someone should enjoy the game is so fucking pretentious
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Ezquimacore
Banned
not hard per se but to a new player the path is not always obvious, I started playing metroid a few months and I was kinda lost sometimes. But the good kind of lost, I felt rewarded every time.
OsirisBlack
Banned
Hip Hop should have more Guitars.
I agree with you about the challenging games but its time we realize that this new age world we live in gives out participation awards for everyone in competitions.
Ezquimacore
Banned
MajinSweet4
Member
Some games can more easily work with difficulty selection than others. Some games are better as hard games while others make more sense as easy games. I prefer harder games on average, but when me and a friend played Resident Evil 6, we quickly realized the game simply isn't a good game when made to be hard. We had more fun with it on a normal mode despite it not being our ideal preference. The fact that the game had difficulty selection didn't do anything for us. In fact, I probably would have enjoyed it more if it had one single difficulty mode that the developers had time to focus on. But we just stopped playing the game, because it clearly wasn't for us. I didn't have meltdown on twitter complaining about it.The thing you dense people cant understand is that we can have both
It can be a rollercoaster FOR YOU, just play on Hard mode or whatever, if you want your "true gamer experience"
Or it could be a carousel for people that just want to enjoy the story, the art, whatever.
In Mass Effect 3 there was an easier than easy mode called Story Mode that was basicaly "just watch the goddamn thing"
Did I play it? Hell no.
But I bet your ass that there were some people that played that way and enjoyed it.
And you could still play the game on Normal/Hard. Didnt affect shit on your experience.
So no, I cant understand how options are bad, since by doing so it doesnt affect your enjoyment.
"Oh but in Sekiro the enjoyment comes from dying many times and finally succeeding", FOR YOU, you dumbass. Maybe some people just want to die a little less, experience the story, the different environments.
Gatekeeping HOW someone should enjoy the game is so fucking pretentious
While I haven't played it, God of War 2018 comes off the same way to me. The games idea of higher difficulties simply makes everything an endurance fight where you need to hit enemies a million times. It's more challenging sure, but it's also really boring and one dimensional. The idea that any game can simply slap on different difficulty selections and magically fix the issue of player skill and game design is absurd. Games are extremely complex and many games quickly break with basic number adjusted difficulty.
Someone trying to explain to you why a developer made a game the way it is has nothing to do with "gatekeeping". You can still buy and play Sekiro like anyone else. Their is no gate. It's especially absurd to tell someone off for liking Sekiro than going on a tangent about an imaginary version of the game that doesn't exist, instead of ya know, playing a game that does exist. Just play a game that is offering you what you want, it's really not that hard.
D
Deleted member 471617
Unconfirmed Member
Kena has difficulty levels though. I played on hard and completed the game even though three out of the last four bosses had a difficulty spike. No interest in Metroid Dread or Returnal so I can't comment on those.
carlosrox
Banned
About the Dread thing:
I don’t think there's anything wrong per se with him getting mad, stuck, or even bitching about it in a video but I do draw the line on him straight up calling it bad design AND quitting over it.
I don’t think he should he shamed over getting stuck either, and saying he's bad at making games or a has-been or whatever is a shitty thing to say - even if he himself says some rude shit.
I don’t think there's anything wrong per se with him getting mad, stuck, or even bitching about it in a video but I do draw the line on him straight up calling it bad design AND quitting over it.
I don’t think he should he shamed over getting stuck either, and saying he's bad at making games or a has-been or whatever is a shitty thing to say - even if he himself says some rude shit.
alabtrosMyster
Banned
There you go, no need for a map.
The hardest part of the game is the controls, controls for the "rocket jump" (whatever it is you do with the little animals) and the grappling hook.
TheDuskwalker
Member
The fact Kena has a easy difficulty (Story Mode difficulty) yet still has people complaining about "high difficulty" shows this.
JLB
Banned
The game is considered a masterpiece because it asks as much from you as you do from it. That's what makes it good.
See, the game can be a masterpiece, and less of a masterpiece at a lower difficulty level, but accesible for houndred of millions of persons.
daveonezero
Banned
Or ya know not experience it if it isn’t the way the artist meant it to be….
Hugare
Member
Which is, again, pretentious as fuck
Havent encountered a game where the difficulty is the only reason why its good.
And if it was, then it would be a shitty game
daveonezero
Banned
Yeah I just got lost at a part before this and regrettably looked it up and it was a blaster block I’m missing.
Do you listen to classical music?
I don’t. But why is being pretentious a bad thing?
not all things appease everyone.
we don’t live in Brave New World yet.
I personally think a game is special when I’m not the best player but there are moments where I clear a room perfectly and it looks cool. It may be a little frustrating as my skills aren’t the best but it isn’t unfair. I know the rules of the game and can work with them.
In my head I think this will look cool when played by someone a lot more skilled than me.
I look forward to seeing the advanced player perform in this game. That too me is a special game
we don’t live in Brave New World yet.
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MaestroMike
Gold Member
tryna run through demons souls remake now definitely gets my heart pumping I wanna beat it so badly, but I'm taking my time with it and not tryna rush just building the muscle/brain memory and getting familiar with the environments/enemies. dying a few times (maybe even several) comes part of the deal and I know to expect it when you're trying something new. but little by little you improve and overcome the challenges/puzzles of the game and hopefully makes you a better gamer. if you're tired and can't muster up the energy/will to play something more challenging I would recommend to play a different game thats a little less challenging or genre that you're skilled in and take a break from the more challenging games or just play short gaming sessions with the games you're not familiar with and start building up your brain/muscle memory and get more familiar with the game/genre little by little. as you make adjustments and your skill improves you can spend more time with the more difficult game that becomes less difficult for you and you will eventually beat it and you don't have to be afraid anymore.
Tschumi
Member
I have thought this before.
About Kena, Sekiro, Jedi Fallen Order... Dark Souls
I then thought: "git gud"
I then got gud.
Then i got tired of the gameplay 20 or so hours later and went to play other games, but that was not because I'd failed to git gud.
I genuinely get a goofy grin every time i beat one of these bosses, all the more if my honey is around because she freaks out and punches my high five
About Kena, Sekiro, Jedi Fallen Order... Dark Souls
I then thought: "git gud"
I then got gud.
Then i got tired of the gameplay 20 or so hours later and went to play other games, but that was not because I'd failed to git gud.
I genuinely get a goofy grin every time i beat one of these bosses, all the more if my honey is around because she freaks out and punches my high five
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Every game should be made with the artist’s vision and intent.
Danjin44
The nicest person on this forum
And every devs should have the freedom to make what they want to make.
There are more than 1000 other games with difficulty setting, it okay for few game to be different. Why people want suck all creativity out of games these days!?
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Icymanipulator
Member
Heaven forbid a player actually has to develop some skill to beat a game.
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