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[Banjo64]

Isn't that what that means? XSS is holding back the XSX.

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

 

[Mr Moose]

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

It's talking about RAM, is it not? As far as I am aware, Series X and PS5 have the same amount.

The amount of available memory is a determining factor in a lot of cases when we talk about the size of a game world or about how many things can be happening within it at any given time. The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec.

Newer games on PC don't support older GPUs. My shitty GPU only has 1GB RAM.

 

[LiquidRex]

So the Cache Scrubbers in the PS5 are totally unique to the console... Not present in XSX or RDNA 2.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

No, he doesn’t. That’s just you projecting your opinion on to someone else. He actually said;

The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec

Can’t see him talking about ambition, or anything being ‘dragged down’ in that comment. Just seems like a factual statement to me.

Does this come as a surprise to you? That games will have to be playable on the Series S?

Oh FFS, so you're just going to argue semantics now, while ignoring the obvious?

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

Ok... no rational discourse to be had here. Move along folks.

So the Cache Scrubbers in the PS5 are totally unique to the console... Not present in XSX or RDNA 2.

Yep.

 

[BigLee74]

Size of XSS ram will detemrmine nothing except how games will run on the XSS. It needs less (in the hands of competent developers with time and resources...for example first party studios) as it targets less (resolution etc).

XSX owners don’t need to worry about it.

PS5 owners certainly don’t need to worry about it, yet some like a good moan regardless it seems!

 

[Mr Moose]

Size of XSS ram will detemrmine nothing except how games will run on the XSS. It needs less (in the hands of competent developers with time and resources...for example first party studios) as it targets less (resolution etc).

XSX owners don’t need to worry about it.

PS5 owners certainly don’t need to worry about it, yet some like a good moan regardless it seems!

That dev is talking about gameplay though, and some others have said they didn't like the RAM on the Series S.

Scaling graphical effects is a lot easier than scaling gameplay. The amount of available memory is a determining factor in a lot of cases when we talk about the size of a game world or about how many things can be happening within it at any given time.

Cross-gen stuff won't matter much, but maybe in the future when games become more ambitious. Who knows, though, I am not a dev and I don't know shit lol.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Size of XSS ram will detemrmine nothing except how games will run on the XSS. It needs less (in the hands of competent developers with time and resources...for example first party studios) as it targets less (resolution etc).

XSX owners don’t need to worry about it.

PS5 owners certainly don’t need to worry about it, yet some like a good moan regardless it seems!

Bollocks!

 

[BigLee74]

Bollocks!

Well, holy fuck, that’s me told!

 

[LiquidRex]

Not for the squeamish.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Well, holy fuck, that’s me told!

Well... don't make dumb sweeping erroneous statements based on nothing but your own opinion trying to pass it off as something factual.

We've been discussing in this thread, tweets from not one but two actual video-game developers who have expressed views that the XSS RAM situation will hold back the gen.

What makes you think you're more qualified to speak on the subject than the guys that actually work with this hardware for a living making games?

 

[Mr Moose]

Not for the squeamish.

Resident Evil + The Thing.

 

[BigLee74]

Well... don't make dumb sweeping erroneous statements based on nothing but your own opinion trying to pass it off as something factual.

We've been discussing in this thread, tweets from not one but two actual video-game developers who have expressed views that the XSS RAM situation will hold back the gen.

What makes you think you're more qualified to speak on the subject than the guys that actually work with this hardware for a living making games?

Dumb, sweeping erroneous statements?

Only thing dumb in here are people crying about the XSS existing, and how it is somehow going to impact the games of the PS5/XSX.

Amazing games in both scope and looks - surpassing expectations of the time - have always been brought out for all systems; weak and powerful, single model or in a chain of models, exclusive or multi-platform.

Clever devs make sure this is so. Whiney devs may moan about how their job is harder, but it’s what they get paid to do.

So pardon me if I don’t jump on your train of XSS bashing, and I can assure you that I don’t have my head in the sand like you claim.

And are you seriously asking me what makes me think I’m more qualified to discuss the subject? In an open discussion forum? Where I have never stated that everybody should listen to me because I’m more qualified?

Priceless.

Regardless, here’s my qualification. I’m me, with 35 years of gaming experience under my Up Yours belt.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

Dumb, sweeping erroneous statements?

Only thing dumb in here are people crying about the XSS existing, and how it is somehow going to impact the games of the PS5/XSX.

Amazing games in both scope and looks - surpassing expectations of the time - have always been brought out for all systems; weak and powerful, single model or in a chain of models, exclusive or multi-platform.

Clever devs make sure this is so. Whiney devs may moan about how their job is harder, but it’s what they get paid to do.

So pardon me if I don’t jump on your train of XSS bashing, and I can assure you that I don’t have my head in the sand like you claim.

And are you seriously asking me what makes me think I’m more qualified to discuss the subject? In an open discussion forum? Where I have never stated that everybody should listen to me because I’m more qualified?

Priceless.

Regardless, here’s my qualification. I’m me, with 35 years of gaming experience under my Up Yours belt.

No offense, but if you're just gonna ignore the evidence of informed, professional developer statements about XSS, simply because they don't fit your own uninformed view then for sure, none of us will listen to a thing you say moving forwards.

Thanks for inviting us to take up that option.

 

[skit_data]

Clever devs make sure this is so. Whiney devs may moan about how their job is harder, but it’s what they get paid to do.

So making development harder is a success? Making development times longer is a success?
Do you know how it went for Sony the last time they let this philosophy dictate the design of their console?

There is nothing good about designing a product that makes it harder for people to extract the full potential out of said product. It is a failure. Accessability is key in creation, there is nothing wrong in it, especially when game development times get longer by each generation.

 

[assurdum]

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

Uh. Just... how?

 

[bitbydeath]

Dumb, sweeping erroneous statements?

Only thing dumb in here are people crying about the XSS existing, and how it is somehow going to impact the games of the PS5/XSX.

Amazing games in both scope and looks - surpassing expectations of the time - have always been brought out for all systems; weak and powerful, single model or in a chain of models, exclusive or multi-platform.

Clever devs make sure this is so. Whiney devs may moan about how their job is harder, but it’s what they get paid to do.

So pardon me if I don’t jump on your train of XSS bashing, and I can assure you that I don’t have my head in the sand like you claim.

And are you seriously asking me what makes me think I’m more qualified to discuss the subject? In an open discussion forum? Where I have never stated that everybody should listen to me because I’m more qualified?

Priceless.

Regardless, here’s my qualification. I’m me, with 35 years of gaming experience under my Up Yours belt.

You’re mistaking ‘harder’ with ‘impossible’, a base spec is just that. It sets the baseline for what we’ll see in games.

 

[Neo Blaster]

Yup, whether people want to accept or not, exclusives on the PS5 will have a much higher baseline and therefore devs will have a lot more freedom.

Sony's FP games will shine on PS5 because they can be optimized for a single machine(as long they don't come to PS4, of course). MS' won't have that luxury thanks to XSS.

 

[Neo Blaster]

this just goes to show that last year's OLEDs were trash and youtubers like him misled us into buying expensive shit like the LG CX making it out to be the greatest tv ever made.

Even the Sony x900h which was recommended by many as THE best non OLED gaming tv has been completely outclassed by Sony's new lineup. I expect incremental updates but these upgrades are huge and I feel stupid buying into the hype last year.

That said, as good as bright explosions look on tvs, 1300 nits might be overkill. I think they need to figure out a way to bring down the prices of these larger OLED and LED panels because 75-85 inches is far more immersive than infinite contrast and blinding brightness. Sony's 4k tvs have been around since like 2014 and the good ones are still over $2000 for 75 inches and above. They need to be $1,000. I remember buying a mid-high end 55 inch 1080p LED tv for $1,000 back in 2007 with my brother. nearly 14 years later, they still cost the same for a mid to high end 55 inch 4k tv.

Expensive shit like CX? Have you ever seen one of those running a PS5 game? I can say from self experience it's image quality could trash an 8k QLED Sammy.

 

[Neo Blaster]

So the Cache Scrubbers in the PS5 are totally unique to the console... Not present in XSX or RDNA 2.

I think Cerny made it very clear when he was talking about a customized chip..

 

[ethomaz]

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

Actually PS5 has a better memory setup than X so it is probably the opposite.

 

[IntentionalPun]

You guys will call 400 person AAA dev teams incompetent when their massive open world games drop to 50FPS on next gen consoles then hang on every word of some random indie dev like they are the worlds foremost experts.

He says 8GB will limit “the size of the game world”?

Did this guy forget about SSDs?

Did you all forget about the UE5 demo streaming geometry in constantly?

It really doesn’t sound like a comment with much merit.

 

[TheThreadsThatBindUs]

He says 8GB will limit “the size of the game world”?

No, he specifically talks about next-gen features.

Did this guy forget about SSDs?

SSDs aren't magic. There's still orders of magnitude higher latency when accessing an SSD than when accessing RAM. As well as two orders of magnitude difference in bandwidth speeds.

Contrary to MS's PR BS about using SSDs as virtual RAM, SSDs cannot replace RAM. Just as RAM cannot replace the benefit of having larger on-die caches.

Did you all forget about the UE5 demo streaming geometry in constantly?

And? What's that got to do with XSS having too little RAM?

 

[IntentionalPun]

No

You didn’t read the article did you?

 

[Razvedka]

Gee willikers, the very thing some of us said right from the beginning, and people wanted to put their heads in the sand.

Yeah. I recall the XSS announcement, my initial reaction and the (now deleted) tweets from the ID Software game engine guys. This generation would have been so much better with just XSX and PS5.

Hopefully in time people will come around to the assertion XSS is holding things back. I just hope it doesn't sell.

 

[Thirty7ven]

He says 8GB will limit “the size of the game world”?

Did this guy forget about SSDs?

Did you all forget about the UE5 demo streaming geometry in constantly?

It really doesn’t sound like a comment with much merit.

The complexity of any given scene depends on how much data you can fill and how fast you can swap. This includes everything, geometry, textures, animation, audio, systems.

You can already make infinite worlds, but you can’t have infinite complexity per scene.

Unless you subscribe to the idea that not only did MS find the magic number for data streaming (lol) and also subscribe to the idea that they found the magic ram number and bandwidth number for the XSS (double lol), it’s only natural to conclude that if you need to respect the baseline experience then that will be a limiting factor on the things you can do in the future.

Here’s a thought exercise, if the Xbox One in 2017/2018 was already dragging itself, how bad would it have been for a Xbox 0.5? Would devs simply push a 540p and bad performance version out there and hope a shitstorm wouldn’t knock on their doors, specially when that SKU would probably have the largest userbase?

It’s bound to have a negative effect, otherwise there would literally be no point to higher specs as a baseline.

 

[SlimySnake]

Expensive shit like CX? Have you ever seen one of those running a PS5 game? I can say from self experience it's image quality could trash an 8k QLED Sammy.

I own both the cx and the 900h.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Look I wish the XSS didn’t exist.

But the guy straight up said the ram would limit the “size of the game world.”

I read that and stopped taking this guy seriously.

I’m sure he has talent but he’s an indie dev who makes his own game engine that looks clunky as hell.

I think the memory bandwidth is likely a far more limiting factor; isn’t that what the ID dev complained about?

 

[IntentionalPun]

I own both the cx and the 900h.

Bro the CX was the best TV last year.

I don’t get your complaint; new TVs come out every year.

Especially with something like OLED you should be expecting big improvements year over year.

Just the nature of buying expensive things. As a PC gamer for instance you gotta just bite the billet and pick a point in time where you think the money spent is gonna last you a long time. Same with TVs.

Or you could sell your current TVs.

 

[Razvedka]

Look I wish the XSS didn’t exist.

But the guy straight up said the ram would limit the “size of the game world.”

I read that and stopped taking this guy seriously.

I’m sure he has talent but he’s an indie dev who makes his own game engine that looks clunky as hell.

I think the memory bandwidth is likely a far more limiting factor; isn’t that what the ID dev complained about?

IIRC the ID guys talked mostly about RAM.

The memory situation is a big issue on the S. The much lower amount of memory and the split memory banks with drastically slower speeds will be a major issue. Aggressively lowering the render resolutions will marginally help but will not completely counteract the deficiencies.

— Billy Khan

Source: https://www.wccftech.com/id-software-devs-concerns-xbox-series-s-specs/amp/

 

[Physiognomonics]

On paper, the PS5 is holding the Series X back. Should the PS5 cease to exist?

In the PC market, everything is holding back the 3090. Should all other graphics cards, and consoles, cease to exist?

In reality it's actually the opposite in most games.

 

[FranXico]

In reality it's actually the opposite in most games.

Haven't you heard? None of the other games count. Because reasons.

 

[IntentionalPun]

UE5 is all about creating massive assets “once” and then the engine scales the assets all the way down to phones through their virtual geometry tech.

The fast SSDs then allow the memory to be replaced so quickly that you barely need to cache anything more than what is on screen. The XSS can replace the entirety of its gaming RAM 2-3 seconds depending on compression.

I think the XSS makes everything more difficult for sure, and trust the ID guys . But it’s also entirely possible they are a bit behind Epic on the strategy employed.

Thanks for finding the quotes Razvedka . Definitely sucks if the likes of ID are concerned about memory size.

But I do think techniques can get around that. However HDDs on PC are another issue.

I still find the idea of parading around some indie devs quotes kind of silly.

 

[FranXico]

Definitely sucks if the likes of ID are concerned about memory size.

Well, now they really have to deal with it. No choice.

 

[JonkyDonk]

I can't wait until we get to like 2022/23 and the first truly 'next-gen' games start to come out and we can really see what all these console are capable of and what differences there will be between them, especially comparing PS5 exclusives to the rest.

 

[LiquidRex]

I think Cerny made it very clear when he was talking about a customized chip..

Yeah I'm just repeating as apparently a Software Engineer stated in an interview with MLID that the Cache Scrubbers could be an RDNA 3 feature, they are definitely not RDNA 2.

 

[kyliethicc]

You guys will call 400 person AAA dev teams incompetent when their massive open world games drop to 50FPS on next gen consoles then hang on every word of some random indie dev like they are the worlds foremost experts.

He says 8GB will limit “the size of the game world”?

Did this guy forget about SSDs?

Did you all forget about the UE5 demo streaming geometry in constantly?

It really doesn’t sound like a comment with much merit.

The issue for Xbox devs is all their games have to be on PC and therefore can only really set the base line spec at a SATA SSD, which is much slower IO than the XSX (and again much slower than PS5.) I highly doubt they will even require an SSD for many of their games over the next few years, and even when they do, its not gonna be required to have a Gen 3 or Gen4 NVMe SSD. Too many PC customers would be excluded.

And a developer from Id Software (now Xbox dev lol) said the XSS RAM is an issue. They know their shit. Id Tech is good tech, I assume the AAA award winning engine programmer knows what he's talking about. (Of course he said this before his studio got bought lol.)

So yeah going from Xbox One games being built around 5 GB of RAM to XSS/X games being built around 7.5 GB of RAM... not a very big leap for the devs to work with. Plus slow low end PC HDDs/SSDs.

While every (edit- exclusive) PS5 game will have the same fast IO and the same 13 GB RAM as baseline spec to dev on.

 

[FrankWza]

don't think they can pull the plug. The XSS must stick around as a target platform for the whole gen. You can't sell people a $299 poor man's next-gen console and then can it part way through it's product lifecycle... the ill-will a move like that would produce would positively dwarf the backlash MS recently saw with their attempt to double the price of XBLG subs.

That’s gonna be some chore. Juggling potentially 3 consoles the entire gen. Because by the time they stop supporting the onex there may be a mid gen upgrade console.

 

[FranXico]

While every PS5 game will have the same fast IO and the same 13 GB RAM as baseline spec to dev on.

For first party devs who are not planning on porting to PC any time soon, of course.

 

[kyliethicc]

Every Xbox first party game has 3 platforms to release on longterm. PC XSX XSS.

Their baseline spec to dev on is defined by the lowest specs across all 3 platforms.

So once they abandon Xbox One, the baseline specs for all Xbox first party game dev:

CPU = old ~ 6 core PC CPUs
GPU = old PC GPUs weaker than XSS GPU
I/O = PC SATA HDDs or SATA SSDs
I/O BW = ~ 50-500 MB/s raw
RAM = 7.5 GB
RAM BW = 224 GB/s
DirectX APIs

They are stuck with those specs to build their games on for the next 5 years at least.

Compare that baseline spec to PS5. Its a big gap in the base specs of the future exclusive games developed by Xbox first party devs vs PlayStation first party devs.

 

[kyliethicc]

For first party devs who are not planning on porting to PC any time soon, of course.

Yeah I'm talking first party exclusive PS5 games. Like Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart.

 

[oldergamer]

i was just thinking about that last night. Platinumed Spiderman and Astrobot back to back and realized ive already platinumed demon Souls, and dont have much to look forward to until the very end of the year.

That wasnt the case in 2014 when infamous and Titanfall were both March titles that kept that next gen hype going into Spring. Hell, even Watch Dogs which came out in May of that year was fresh and new and felt like a next gen AAA experience despite the massive downgrade.

This time around, Microsoft has fuck all for the first half of the year. Forget something akin to Titanfall, they dont even have a B game until whenever Halo comes out late in the year. Meanwhile, Sony is content with launching C games like Destruction All Stars and Returnal and indie games like kena. Ratchet shouldve been the next gen AAA March title.

I guess Resident Evil 8 launching in May will be the Watch Dogs of this year, but both first parties have dropped the ball.

Wouldnt be surprised if GoW, GT7 and Horizon all get pushed to 2022.

I called it on ratchet not being launch window.i also dont think gow is this year.

 

[IntentionalPun]

kyliethicc yeah I said in a later post I think PC/HDD is a bigger limiting factor.

But going from 5 to 7.5 gigs of RAM while being able to replace that RAM in its entirety in 3 seconds vs like.. 2 full minutes... is the big difference.

If you have to design your engine around last gen or PC HDD that’s another issue.

 

[kyliethicc]

kyliethicc yeah I said in a later post I think PC/HDD is a bigger limiting factor.

But going from 5 to 7.5 gigs of RAM while being able to replace that RAM in its entirety in 3 seconds vs like.. 2 full minutes... is the big difference.

If you have to design your engine around last gen or PC HDD that’s another issue.

The newly Xbox first party Id Software dev, an award winning AAA game engine programmer, on XSS. Thoughts?

 

[IntentionalPun]

The newly Xbox first party Id Software dev, an award winning AAA game engine programmer, on XSS. Thoughts?

Read the last page bro.

I was just pointing out that indie dev his hardly some great source, his comments reveal that.

He is making his own engine; it’s awesome he’s able to do that but he’s also not the premiere engine dev or anything and game “world size” really shouldn’t be limited.

 

[Panajev2001a]

The newly Xbox first party Id Software dev, an award winning AAA game engine programmer, on XSS. Thoughts?

I am still waiting for all XSS games being like for like with the XSX just at 1080p and with RT, but as usual the “possible with XYZ people working on parallel on two versions of the game and investing more time and money != impossible”.

A $349 digits only XSX with half the SSD storage (or even with full 1 TB at $399) would have been a much better deal than the XSS at $299 and all devs would have a single Xbox spec to target.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Read the last page bro.

I was just pointing out that indie dev his hardly some great source, his comments reveal that.

He is making his own engine; it’s awesome he’s able to do that but he’s also not the premiere engine dev or anything and game “world size” really shouldn’t be limited.

Deflection, denial, technicalities, difficult != impossible, selective reading, etc... yes we did .

 

[sircaw]

The newly Xbox first party Id Software dev, an award winning AAA game engine programmer, on XSS. Thoughts?

Who the fuck are id software anyway, have they ever made any good games? bunch of amatures.

If i want solid advice i will hit Dealer's channel, i will leave you guys with these nobodies.

 

[chilichote]

So the Cache Scrubbers in the PS5 are totally unique to the console... Not present in XSX or RDNA 2.

Perhaps that's Sony's lower-cost Infinity Cache equivalent.

 

[IntentionalPun]

Deflection, denial, technicalities, difficult != impossible, selective reading, etc... yes we did .

I read the entire article, pretty clear many others didn’t. I literally was told “no” when I said the dev claimed world size would be limited.

If I told you that the moon is made of cheese would you take the rest of my comments on astronomy seriously?

edit: lol, also getting comments that clearly indicate people didn’t read the thread.. nobody disparaged iD in this thread.

 

[Razvedka]

I am still waiting for all XSS games being like for like with the XSX just at 1080p and with RT, but as usual the “possible with XYZ people working on parallel on two versions of the game and investing more time and money != impossible”.

A $349 digits only XSX with half the SSD storage (or even with full 1 TB at $399) would have been a much better deal than the XSS at $299 and all devs would have a single Xbox spec to target.

I'm a bit surprised Microsoft didn't pull a Sony and just release a discless XSX for $100 less. Maybe the internal politics of MS couldn't justify them taking any sort of loss on the initial silicon even if long term (digital sales) it would be net profitable.. Or maybe given their GamePass focus it was just completely non-viable since they're already targeting a 'long term profitability' solution for gaming/Xbox brand.