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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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IllegalLemon

IllegalLemon

Member
SlimySnake said:
It was supposed to be a physics driven game with 100% destructible environments. It was their power of the cloud showcase which quite frankly looked spectacular in 2015.



Of course, MS must have quickly realized that they cant just spin up 6-10 servers just for one instance of the game and quietly gutted the whole destructive aspect of the game. It's perhaps the biggest downgrade of all time but the game is so awful no one even talks about how they removed that whole power of the cloud aspect of it.

The graphics downgrade was nothing like what we got with TLOU2 and Ghost of Tsushima, they changed the entire look of the game. It was clear that the base xbox one was simply not powerful enough to run those visuals even without any destruction, and that they were showing footage from a fake PC build that entire time.
Click to expand...

Actually, the physics based destruction using cloud processing was tapping into an algorithm developed by Cloudgine, and it would've been realised, had Epic not acquired Cloudgine and forced them into licensing the specific algorithm to Microsoft which, knowing Sweeney's history with his insatiable hunger for fat sums of cash, I'll assume wasn't cheap. This forced the game into multiple delays as they didn't have access to that algorithm anymore and would be unable to realise their goal of a full, massive scale physics based destruction. Eventually the destruction was just, downgraded massively leading to the product we eventually got.
Give this a read for some insight if you're interested in reading further into the matter.
 
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Agent_Nobody

Agent_Nobody

Member
Lunatic_Gamer said:

PlayStation Files Patent For Technology That Lets Spectators Mess With You in VR​




JpI9oR6.png



www.ign.com

PlayStation Files Patent For Technology That Lets Spectators Mess With You in VR - IGN

Sony has filed a patent for technology that lets audience members make decisions for players inside of virtual reality.
www.ign.com www.ign.com
Click to expand...

It doesn’t really seem like much of a patent TBH. You could do that in a lot of early VR games other than the camera track.
 
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onesvenus

onesvenus

Member
Insane Metal

Insane Metal

Member
skit_data

skit_data

Member
Insane Metal said:
I mean, this has been brought up before. It's pretty obvious at this point.

Good thing devs can push for different things on different machines tho.
Click to expand...
This is the first time Ive seen a dev outright say it will be a limiting factor when designing gameplay. Its been obvious since the start of these comparisons that Series S is not really what they promised but when devs are talking about gameplay design being impeded I cant interpret in any other way than Series X defintely being held back, and probably 3rd party game development across all platforms.

Nothing really new to anyone being familiar with the term ”systems requirements”, but a lot of people still dont understand the reason why people were upset with Phil saying ”Series X wont be held back, its just a meme”
 
DeepEnigma

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
skit_data said:
wccftech.com

Dev: Next-Gen Features Have to Be Fitted to XSS Memory; It Would Have Been Much Easier with XSX Only

Exor Studios' Paweł Lekki said that the Xbox Series S memory is the determining point for the gameplay features of next-gen consoles.
wccftech.com wccftech.com

”Pushing the PS5”
Click to expand...
The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec.
Click to expand...
Gee willikers, the very thing some of us said right from the beginning, and people wanted to put their heads in the sand.
 
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SaucyJack

SaucyJack

Member
Dibils2k said:
£70 is ridiculous tbh, its making me not pull the trigger on games i normally would

like Godfall, i knew i would enjoy it but also knew it wont be for long so didnt buy it on launch... bought it later for £50 (still high but tolerable) and loved the game

I hope £70 isnt the norm, like i'll pay £70 for next UC or God Of War but have some tier system, there is not a bone in my body thats tempted by Returnal at £70!!! but i would have bought it at £60, its a weird line to draw but here we are
Click to expand...

Yes, completely agree with this.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
yewles1 said:
Parallel Multiprocessor Units like Nvidia's CUDA cores and AMD's SP's are essentially like Cell's SPE's, whether the manufacturers want to admit it or not.
Click to expand...
Kinda but not really too.

The main differentiator is that CELL SPE's use a programmer managed local store of a few kB per SPE, whereas CUDA cores and AMD SPs have hardware managed caches and as such are much easier to use.
 
R

roops67

Member
sircaw said:
How does the packaging feel, at one stage, many months ago it was the most important thing to a user on these forums, god rest his soul. "lollipop_disappointed:
Click to expand...

Zoro7 said:
X-Fighter....God bless his soul.
Literally lost his shit over the packaging then committed account suicide. Was a fun watch.
Click to expand...
I can't forget the conversation you had sircaw with him pointing out that his name blatantly proved his agenda. He claimed it was totally coincidental and in no way he was a console warrior fanboy an that he chose 'X-Fighter' cos he's a fan of StarWars :messenger_tears_of_joy:
 
R

roops67

Member
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
Kinda but not really too.

The main differentiator is that CELL SPE's use a programmer managed local store of a few kB per SPE, whereas CUDA cores and AMD SPs have hardware managed caches and as such are much easier to use.
Click to expand...
But could say there's a lot of research that had been laid down by the use of CELL SPE's in the PS3 that's helped, maybe?

This feels like the ultimate spiritual successor to the CELL eventhough they've 'advanced' from the ring bus topology...
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
roops67 said:
But could say there's a lot of research that had been laid down by the use of CELL SPE's in the PS3 that's helped, maybe?
Click to expand...

Oh for sure. The CELL set the entire gaming industry up for the future it's currently pursuing.

Even the necessity for all-encompassing middleware engines like Unreal exploded in popularity due in part to the CELLs unconventional architecture.

roops67 said:
This feels like the ultimate spiritual successor to the CELL eventhough they've 'advanced' from the ring bus topology...
Click to expand...


Yeah, this thing is essentially the logical conclusion for all GPUs.

You the see the trends with UE5 moving to software rasterizers for micro-polygons, (mostly) software RT, the move to more and more fully programmable GPU rendering pipeline (with Mesh/Primitive Shaders and Task/Surface shaders) etc etc... Most of the traditional fixed function units of the GPU pipeline will be replaced by software running on gen purpose cores. So you'll end up with a chip that looks remarkably like the above massively parallel CPU data streaming monster, but with select fixed function graphics hardware for stuff like RT, ML, ROPS, TMUs, command processor etc etc...
 
Three Jackdaws

Three Jackdaws

Banned
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
Oh for sure. The CELL set the entire gaming industry up for the future it's currently pursuing.

Even the necessity for all-encompassing middleware engines like Unreal exploded in popularity due in part to the CELLs unconventional architecture.



Yeah, this thing is essentially the logical conclusion for all GPUs.

You the see the trends with UE5 moving to software rasterizers for micro-polygons, (mostly) software RT, the move to more and more fully programmable GPU rendering pipeline (with Mesh/Primitive Shaders and Task/Surface shaders) etc etc... Most of the traditional fixed function units of the GPU pipeline will be replaced by software running on gen purpose cores. So you'll end up with a chip that looks remarkably like the above massively parallel CPU data streaming monster, but with select fixed function graphics hardware for stuff like RT, ML, ROPS, TMUs, command processor etc etc...
Click to expand...
Yes, although the subject is very complicated, essentially what Mesh/Primitive Shaders do is allow graphics workloads to be processed more like compute commands onto the GPU.This allows for much more efficiency, ease and programmability for the developers and much higher utilisation of the GPU.
 
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SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Insane Metal said:
Sony's new High End OLED with 1300 nits brightness?? What the fuck?

Click to expand...

this just goes to show that last year's OLEDs were trash and youtubers like him misled us into buying expensive shit like the LG CX making it out to be the greatest tv ever made.

Even the Sony x900h which was recommended by many as THE best non OLED gaming tv has been completely outclassed by Sony's new lineup. I expect incremental updates but these upgrades are huge and I feel stupid buying into the hype last year.

That said, as good as bright explosions look on tvs, 1300 nits might be overkill. I think they need to figure out a way to bring down the prices of these larger OLED and LED panels because 75-85 inches is far more immersive than infinite contrast and blinding brightness. Sony's 4k tvs have been around since like 2014 and the good ones are still over $2000 for 75 inches and above. They need to be $1,000. I remember buying a mid-high end 55 inch 1080p LED tv for $1,000 back in 2007 with my brother. nearly 14 years later, they still cost the same for a mid to high end 55 inch 4k tv.
 
kyliethicc

kyliethicc

Member
skit_data said:
wccftech.com

Dev: Next-Gen Features Have to Be Fitted to XSS Memory; It Would Have Been Much Easier with XSX Only

Exor Studios' Paweł Lekki said that the Xbox Series S memory is the determining point for the gameplay features of next-gen consoles.
wccftech.com wccftech.com
Click to expand...
The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec.
Click to expand...

The Series S is the single thing that guarantees Sony's first party PS5 exclusive games will blow people away. And of course every Xbox game being on PC and the PS5's I/O are factors too.

The gap in raw game design possibilities and longterm technical fidelity between the exclusive Sony PS5 games and Microsoft's Xbox/PC games will only grow over the years.

Exclusive PS5 games will be built around 5.5 GB/s raw and ~10 GB/s on average I/O, and the 13 GB of RAM in the PS5 for devs to use.

Exclusive Xbox games will be built around the worst case I/O on PC of like 50-500 MB/s raw (HDD? SATA SSD?), and the 7.5 GB of RAM in the XSS for devs to use. (That's why Microsoft need that Windows DirectX I/O shit, to try to move the baseline up on PC.)

The gap in the baseline of how the games are built and designed is inevitable.
 
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FrankWza

FrankWza

Member
kyliethicc said:
Exclusive PS5 games will be built around 5.5 GB/s raw and ~10 GB/s on average I/O
Click to expand...
This was the secret sauce bs that was thrown about that, to me, is the difference maker. Surprisingly, there were a few comments boasting about how the ps5 SSD was only loading 1 second faster in the hitman comp thread.(obviously it’s more than just an hd) I guess not everyone got the message after the previous head to heads.
The series s is a head scratcher. How long do you see Msoft staying with it? Until the mid gen upgrade? More or less? Because if it’s as you say, this could be another reason they pull the plug on it sooner than later.
 
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TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
villentretenmerth said:
Yes, although the subject is very complicated, essentially what Mesh/Primitive Shaders do is allow graphics workloads to be processed more like compute commands onto the GPU.This allows for much more efficiency, ease and programmability for the developers and much higher utilisation of the GPU.
Click to expand...

Not only that, it's also a metric crapton faster. Instead of having to rely on rigid fixed function hardware that only able to handle something like 4x primitives per clock, you're able to utilize the full width of your entire shader array. It's why for example culling via GPU compute is like orders of magnitude faster than the fixed function hardware in GCN GPUs.

FrankWza said:
This was the secret sauce bs that was thrown about that, to me, is the difference maker. Surprisingly, there were a few comments boasting about how the ps5 SSD was only loading 1 second faster in the hitman comp thread.(obviously it’s more than just an hd) I guess not everyone got the message after the previous head to heads.
The series s is a head scratcher. How long do you see Msoft staying with it? Until the mid gen upgrade? More or less? Because if it’s as you say, this could be another reason they pull the plug on it sooner than later.
Click to expand...

I don't think they can pull the plug. The XSS must stick around as a target platform for the whole gen. You can't sell people a $299 poor man's next-gen console and then can it part way through it's product lifecycle... the ill-will a move like that would produce would positively dwarf the backlash MS recently saw with their attempt to double the price of XBLG subs.

IntentionalPun said:
There’d be a class action lawsuit if they ever kept XSX support up and ditched XSS.
Click to expand...
Yup! For sure.
 
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LiquidRex

LiquidRex

Member
I wonder if the Chip crisis will prolong cross gen development of games than originally planned, wasn't RE8 originally meant to be a next gen only game?
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
LiquidRex said:
I wonder if the Chip crisis will prolong cross gen development of games than originally planned, wasn't RE8 originally meant to be a next gen only game?
Click to expand...
Probable, tbh.

If they can't get the hardware into consumer hands, the business case for new-gen exclusive titles starts to appear undesirable.

That said, most games starting development last year or later will be able to target next-gen exclusively without concern. There's no way chip shortages persist into next year.
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
kyliethicc said:
The Series S is the single thing that guarantees Sony's first party PS5 exclusive games will blow people away. And of course every Xbox game being on PC and the PS5's I/O are factors too.

The gap in raw game design possibilities and longterm technical fidelity between the exclusive Sony PS5 games and Microsoft's Xbox/PC games will only grow over the years.

Exclusive PS5 games will be built around 5.5 GB/s raw and ~10 GB/s on average I/O, and the 13 GB of RAM in the PS5 for devs to use.

Exclusive Xbox games will be built around the worst case I/O on PC of like 50-500 MB/s raw (HDD? SATA SSD?), and the 7.5 GB of RAM in the XSS for devs to use. (That's why Microsoft need that Windows DirectX I/O shit, to try to move the baseline up on PC.)

The gap in the baseline of how the games are built and designed is inevitable.
Click to expand...

Base specs matter... over and over again... in most cases you will see either base consoles are screwed over like with CyberPunk 2077 or high end consoles are held back (do what you can brute forcing things starting from the lowest common denominator specs). Same message, different words:
rUF5Ibh.jpg
 
P

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
skit_data said:
This is the first time Ive seen a dev outright say it will be a limiting factor when designing gameplay. Its been obvious since the start of these comparisons that Series S is not really what they promised but when devs are talking about gameplay design being impeded I cant interpret in any other way than Series X defintely being held back, and probably 3rd party game development across all platforms.

Nothing really new to anyone being familiar with the term ”systems requirements”, but a lot of people still dont understand the reason why people were upset with Phil saying ”Series X wont be held back, its just a meme”
Click to expand...
Phil said that and plenty also followed when it was said that XSS would have the same graphics and next generation features just at 1080p/1440p because 12/4 = 3 and 3 > 4 (that of course discounted the clock speed reduction of the shared common HW blocks, the lower memory bandwidth, etc...) 🤷‍♂️.

See my post above, not the first time a dev said anything about it btw...
 
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Banjo64

Banjo64

cumsessed
DeepEnigma said:
Gee willikers, the very thing some of us said right from the beginning, and people wanted to put their heads in the sand.
Click to expand...
Looks overall a positive impression to me? Have you actually read the full article?

While we were able to simply compile The Riftbreaker for the Xbox Series X and it "just works", the XSS requires additional optimization. Still, it doesn't look like it will require that much work to be running well at 1080p on the XSS. The best thing about the current architecture is that the CPU power on both Xbox models is practically the same. Scaling graphical effects is a lot easier than scaling gameplay.

From the point of view of a developer it would be much easier if there was a single XSX SKU, but given the circumstances I think that Microsoft has made good choices in how to create a much cheaper console, that can still run next-generation games.
 
TheThreadsThatBindUs

TheThreadsThatBindUs

Member
Banjo64 said:
Looks overall a positive impression to me? Have you actually read the full article?

While we were able to simply compile The Riftbreaker for the Xbox Series X and it "just works", the XSS requires additional optimization. Still, it doesn't look like it will require that much work to be running well at 1080p on the XSS. The best thing about the current architecture is that the CPU power on both Xbox models is practically the same. Scaling graphical effects is a lot easier than scaling gameplay.

From the point of view of a developer it would be much easier if there was a single XSX SKU, but given the circumstances I think that Microsoft has made good choices in how to create a much cheaper console, that can still run next-generation games.
Click to expand...
The issue he highlighted are pretty much game-changing, and the wording being so strong points to something very different from what I would describe as an "overall positive impression".

He basically says the XSS RAM situation is going to drag down developer's ambition for the entirety of the gen. But wait... he also said some positive things about MS, so let's bury our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the room... /s
 
Banjo64

Banjo64

cumsessed
TheThreadsThatBindUs said:
The issue he highlighted are pretty much game-changing, and the wording being so strong points to something very different from what I would describe as an "overall positive impression".

He basically says the XSS RAM situation is going to drag down developer's ambition for the entirety of the gen. But wait... he also said some positive things about MS, so let's bury our heads in the sand and ignore the elephant in the room... /s
Click to expand...
No, he doesn’t. That’s just you projecting your opinion on to someone else. He actually said;

The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec

Can’t see him talking about ambition, or anything being ‘dragged down’ in that comment. Just seems like a factual statement to me.

Does this come as a surprise to you? That games will have to be playable on the Series S?
 
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Mr Moose

Mr Moose

Member
Banjo64 said:
No, he doesn’t. That’s just you projecting your opinion on to someone else. He actually said;

The size of the memory that is available in the XSS is the actual determining point for the entire console generation as gameplay features have to be fitted to the lowest spec

Can’t see him talking about ambition, or anything being ‘dragged down’ in that comment. Just seems like a factual statement to me.

Does this come as a surprise to you? That games will have to be playable on the Series S?
Click to expand...
Isn't that what that means? XSS is holding back the XSX.
 
LiquidRex

LiquidRex

Member
So will we see a city in a game where you can investigate every room in every building on next gen consoles.

For example can the speed of the SSD and custom decompression in the PS5 mean, room contents can be generated in under second with the turn of the door handle, then scrubbed as soon as your back is turned as you leave. 👀
 
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sircaw

sircaw

Banned
roops67 said:
I can't forget the conversation you had sircaw with him pointing out that his name blatantly proved his agenda. He claimed it was totally coincidental and in no way he was a console warrior fanboy an that he chose 'X-Fighter' cos he's a fan of StarWars :messenger_tears_of_joy:
Click to expand...
Damn, and i thought i was the only one that would remember that gem haha.

This place can really deliver sometimes :messenger_heart:
 
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