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[VFXVeteran]

The fact that someone is trying to tell people that devs can't get better with time & experience is beyond me lol

The fact that you interpreted what I said like that tells me that you aren't a developer at all. Any other developer would have understood what I was saying since we all talk the same language and understand what we are saying.

 

[VFXVeteran]

You’ve narrowed it down so much though
It has to:
-be AAA
-have come out early enough in the PS4 lifetime to allow for them to develop another game before next gen started
-be from the same series
-use the same engine
.....
If you loosen the criteria without it being in the same series wouldn’t sucker punch fit in well here if they used the same engine?
Infamous a few months into last gen and GoT a few months before the end. Superior graphically and technically and cut down on load times.

You can't compare one game to another game when their scopes are totally different. Then if you compare different developers, you don't know if one is as talented as the other. The argument I narrowed down was so that we are dealing with no outliers at all. Same developer, same tech, same engine..etc..

How can comparing The Order to Horizon Zero Dawn be a meaningful comparison of the generation maturing in a way that extracts more power from the hardware? Did every single game have limited scope like Order at the beginning? Or course not!

 

[FrankWza]

You can't compare one game to another game when their scopes are totally different. Then if you compare different developers, you don't know if one is as talented as the other. The argument I narrowed down was so that we are dealing with no outliers at all. Same developer, same tech, same engine..etc..

How can comparing The Order to Horizon Zero Dawn be a meaningful comparison of the generation maturing in a way that extracts more power from the hardware? Did every single game have limited scope like Order at the beginning? Or course not!

I didn’t. I used an example of the same dev, sucker punch. Which you conveniently ignored. You’re creating a scenario that has so little chance of happening that it’s impossible to bring up an example. So that doesn’t make the scenario you’re using valid.

 

[Klayzer]

I didn’t. I used an example of the same dev, sucker punch. Which you conveniently ignored. You’re creating a scenario that has so little chance of happening that it’s impossible to bring up an example. So that doesn’t make the scenario you’re using valid.

You're not a developer, so your eyes and history of games improving with more time with systems are wrong. Im a developer, that means I can throw out a bunch of meaning less mumbo jumbo that's not aplicable to the topic at all. Don't question my authority. That's the cliff notes version for his rebuttal pretty much.

 

[onQ123]

The fact that you interpreted what I said like that tells me that you aren't a developer at all. Any other developer would have understood what I was saying since we all talk the same language and understand what we are saying.

They fact that you're hollering tells me you was the dog that was hit

 

[VFXVeteran]

If you loosen the criteria without it being in the same series wouldn’t sucker punch fit in well here if they used the same engine?
Infamous a few months into last gen and GoT a few months before the end. Superior graphically and technically and cut down on load times.

What about GoT is superior to Infamous? Don't say it has multiple leaves. Again, the environments are completely different but they are from the same company so let's discuss that.

Tell me a graphics feature that's been enhanced throughout the generation? I can start with one that hasn't changed: anisotropic filtering of textures. It was 4x and continued to be 4x throughout the entire generation. There is no technique that was used to give a better filtering technique for texture filtering. Can you point to any paper where IG discussed any milestones they made from Infamous to GoT that they couldn't do before? Their particle lighting looks the same. I simply don't see a giant leap in graphics tech in GoT.

 

[VFXVeteran]

You're not a developer, so your eyes and history of games improving with more time with systems are wrong. Im a developer, that means I can throw out a bunch of meaning less mumbo jumbo that's not aplicable to the topic at all. Don't question my authority. That's the cliff notes version for his rebuttal pretty much.

There is no authority in my words, but don't act like you have authority when you have no experience developing graphics whatsoever. That's kinda trolling.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Can't wait the the videos so we can stop fighting among ourselves ..

 

[SilentUser]

I hope people listen to John. Not every studio is an AAA powerhouse that can deploy the full power of Series X or PS5, nor is every AAA powerhouse obligated to drop platforms and PCs with hundreds of millions of users, and exclusively target systems with no existing users for best results.

Keep your expectations realistic, have fun, enjoy the best versions of games, and appreciate the ones going the extra mile, like Souls.

100% agreed. It feels like lots of people here only cares about the perfect texture or AA solution or the damned RT. Of course I like some eye candy, but there is a lot more than that. Give me good enough graphics (not a fan of low res though) + interesting gameplay + and a nice OST (I'm a sucker for that ;P).

 

[clintar]

Can't wait the the videos so we can stop fighting among ourselves ..

Yes, that should stop it.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Yes, that should stop it.

Wishful thinking... I know

 

[Redlancet]

The fact that you interpreted what I said like that tells me that you aren't a developer at all. Any other developer would have understood what I was saying since we all talk the same language and understand what we are saying.

thats not true at all,im a dev myself and i think you are spouting nonsense,to be honest thats your modus operandi

 

[regawdless]

What about GoT is superior to Infamous? Don't say it has multiple leaves. Again, the environments are completely different but they are from the same company so let's discuss that.

Tell me a graphics feature that's been enhanced throughout the generation? I can start with one that hasn't changed: anisotropic filtering of textures. It was 4x and continued to be 4x throughout the entire generation. There is no technique that was used to give a better filtering technique for texture filtering. Can you point to any paper where IG discussed any milestones they made from Infamous to GoT that they couldn't do before? Their particle lighting looks the same. I simply don't see a giant leap in graphics tech in GoT.

I'm kinda with you here. The power and compute budget stays the same and the first exclusive games will already tell us a lot about the visual quality that we can expect throughout the generation.
These consoles are comparatively easy to develop for and it will not take devs a long time to adjust to the differences of the previous gen.
Infamous Second Son is a good example from last gen. Very early in the gen, but especially after the Pro patch, it looked stunning and still looks very good. With these consoles, we don't see big improvements over the gen anymore.

I think that most improvements come from devs learning how to mask and hide certain shortcomings better, improving their workflows to have more time for optimization, improving their art design etc. They don't suddenly unlock more power hidden somewhere under the liquid metal.

Correct me if I'm wrong though, I'm obviously not a dev hehe.

 

[v_iHuGi]

Uncharted 4 to TLOU 2 Leap is insane literally. Almost a Generational one.

Anyone has a Ps5 yet? Digital Foundry?

 

[MasterCornholio]

Can't wait the the videos so we can stop fighting among ourselves ..

Before the videos

After the videos

 

[FrankWza]

What about GoT is superior to Infamous? Don't say it has multiple leaves. Again, the environments are completely different but they are from the same company so let's discuss that.

Tell me a graphics feature that's been enhanced throughout the generation? I can start with one that hasn't changed: anisotropic filtering of textures. It was 4x and continued to be 4x throughout the entire generation. There is no technique that was used to give a better filtering technique for texture filtering. Can you point to any paper where IG discussed any milestones they made from Infamous to GoT that they couldn't do before? Their particle lighting looks the same. I simply don't see a giant leap in graphics tech in GoT.

I already did. It looks better overall and what they were able to do with load times isn’t exactly nothing. You really think prelaunch they could have made GoT the same game it was without having worked on infamous first?
And as far as this being a precedent going forward, isn’t this the first gen where both consoles are being built with SSD being built into the systems to supplement some of the demands on other components? If this is the first time this has ever been done, is it that hard to imagine developers being able to implement a technique tofurther graphics if they can use the SSD for more power. Someone like polyphony if they were ever able to squeeze in 2 games in gen or SSM?

got this from a EuG article and the trees you poo pooed were an accomplishment for them...but what do they know?:


You started this generation launching a game, and now you're closing it out by launching a game. Have they been quite different experiences?

Jason Connell: They're definitely very different experiences. And to piggyback off what Brian was saying earlier, the beginning is a little bit different because you have this new tech in front of you, you're trying to figure out how to utilise it as well as how to make a unique flavour for your game - inFamous: Second Son being that game. As we've progressed forward to this game, we did spend a bunch of time figuring out how to utilise tech to make this game, because it's a completely different game - you know, large scale terrain, procedurally generated and created forestry. We didn't have a lot of trees - our lead environment artists was talking about how they could probably count the amount of trees in our last game. And in this one there's just absolutely no way there's millions I don't know there's tonnes.

Brian Fleming: There's a number! It's three million trees.

Jason Connell: Three million trees! That's just insane you know, so you can't hand-place those, you have to develop tech in order to make that artfully and technologically work out. I feel like being towards the end is certainly super exciting. Obviously as creators you put a lot of pressure on yourself whenever you make a new IP.

 

[gamechanger87]

thats not true at all,im a dev myself and i think you are spouting nonsense,to be honest thats your modus operandi

Oh really? Didn’t know most devs wrote in all lower case and warred?

Wanna get verified Mr. Dev?

Mod of War

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

What about GoT is superior to Infamous? Don't say it has multiple leaves. Again, the environments are completely different but they are from the same company so let's discuss that.

Tell me a graphics feature that's been enhanced throughout the generation? I can start with one that hasn't changed: anisotropic filtering of textures. It was 4x and continued to be 4x throughout the entire generation. There is no technique that was used to give a better filtering technique for texture filtering. Can you point to any paper where IG discussed any milestones they made from Infamous to GoT that they couldn't do before? Their particle lighting looks the same. I simply don't see a giant leap in graphics tech in GoT.

Just because many "techniques" existed at the beginning of the gen doesn't mean that games didn't start getting massively better looking.

Developers start using MORE of these techniques concurrently or they look like better implementations.

You cannot deny that optimizations are far more fine tuned at the end of the gen. Just compare Death Stranding to Horizon to Killzone shadow fall all from GG's engine. There's things being done in Death Stranding that weren't done in those other games.

 

[dEvAnGeL]

Uncharted 4 to TLOU 2 Leap is insane literally. Almost a Generational one.

Anyone has a Ps5 yet? Digital Foundry?

Hyperbole of 10.3 TF magnitude.

 

[Hawk269]

I really hope people are respectful of the folks at DF when they start posting their analysis on games, especially multi-platform games. Whichever side you game on, just because one version of game is better than another does not mean you need to personally attack the person doing the analysis. DF really does not give a shit which version of a game runs or looks better, they are just reporting based on what they have analyzed. Please be respectful.

 

[VFXVeteran]

Just because many "techniques" existed at the beginning of the gen doesn't mean that games didn't start getting massively better looking.

Developers start using MORE of these techniques concurrently or they look like better implementations.

You cannot deny that optimizations are far more fine tuned at the end of the gen. Just compare Death Stranding to Horizon to Killzone shadow fall all from GG's engine. There's things being done in Death Stranding that weren't done in those other games.

I disagree. That graphics engine is robust enough to render out multiple types of games. That's fine. Horizon looks better than DS and definitely has a unique pipeline with their procedural generation. But that's a tech that they didn't need to refine because they didn't know the hardware.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

You're not a developer, so your eyes and history of games improving with more time with systems are wrong. Im a developer, that means I can throw out a bunch of meaning less mumbo jumbo that's not aplicable to the topic at all. Don't question my authority. That's the cliff notes version for his rebuttal pretty much.

Thank fuck someone said this.

 

[Hunnybun]

I can't believe this guy is still trying to argue that graphics don't improve through a generation.

At what point does an argument become so ridiculous to effectively become trolling?

 

[Portugeezer]

People on this board and others unironically listing Bugsnax as a PS exclusive they’re dying to play.

The absurdity goes both ways. #listwarz and pixel-counting are about to become the most important talking points. Personally, I’m just interested in the multi-platform face offs. I would expect a PS3/ 360 scenario, where the former’s exotic hardware is exploited by in house devs for results better than 3rd party can achieve, but the latter performs better across the broader range of titles.

But we’ll see!

Bullllllshit.

Bugsnax hype has always been a meme.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

I disagree. That graphics engine is robust enough to render out multiple types of games. That's fine. Horizon looks better than DS and definitely has a unique pipeline with their procedural generation. But that's a tech that they didn't need to refine because they didn't know the hardware.

I think Death Stranding looks a lot better, much richer environments and far better character models

But it’s hard to compare because they are different games

Regardless, the best looking PS5 games all came out after the generation was midway over....

It’s a combination of better tech, better art/resources, and simply more familiarity/efficiency

 

[Lethal01]

Oh really? Didn’t know most devs wrote in all lower case and warred?

Wanna get verified Mr. Dev?

Mod of War

Developers are just normal people, they don't suddenly start typing different on online forums just because they work in the industry.
And not everyone wants to have their identity attached to the account they use to say how much they love A or hate B

 

[Tschumi]

I've been waiting for their next PS5 video to drop for a day now what gives

 

[Klayzer]

I think Death Stranding looks a lot better, much richer environments and far better character models

But it’s hard to compare because they are different games

Regardless, the best looking PS5 games all came out after the generation was midway over....

It’s a combination of better tech, better art/resources, and simply more familiarity/efficiency

And wait for it....

A possibly more talented studio, that's better at problem solving to get things done. Maybe the studio he works for neither has the talent, or the expertise for getting the most out of projects. Im going to assume its the former and the latter just on his baity posts alone.

Imagine proudly spewing that type of rhetoric. No wonder he got ran off another forum with that garbage.

 

[James Sawyer Ford]

It’s a night and day difference too

Ghost of Tsushima looks so much better than Infamous SS

The leap from Uncharted to TLOU2 isn’t as big, but it’s still very much present. And UC4 was more of a “mid gen” game anyhow

I think it’s delusional to think we won’t see much better looking games than what we see in the launch window

 

[Kagey K]

Not really. it depends which console has employed common L1 infinity cache will be the most powerful, on paper and in game.

IPC 22 % would make either console punch well above its weight, we dont know if either has a common L1 cache. WE will get more detals on 28th for sure. Its too early to call.

Thank fuck there is less than a week to go and all this “secret sauce” shit can die.

I hope you are right, because if you are wrong it’s going to suck when the crows come home to nest.

 

[Klayzer]

It’s a night and day difference too

Ghost of Tsushima looks so much better than Infamous SS

The leap from Uncharted to TLOU2 isn’t as big, but it’s still very much present. And UC4 was more of a “mid gen” game anyhow

I think it’s delusional to think we won’t see much better looking games than what we see in the launch window

Not only is it delusional, history says it's just plain false. To argue otherwise seems to be trolling/contrarian just for the hell of it.

 

[_Justinian_]

No. I am out for blood. Big developer or small. "Indie" or not. You will all be held to the same standard regardless of platform. You came out talking big about next gen this and next gen that. Now you had better back it up.

 

[Klayzer]

No. I am out for blood. Big developer or small. "Indie" or not. You will all be held to the same standard regardless of platform. You came out talking big about next gen this and next gen that. Now you had better back it up.

Ditto. Its so hard to get the actual truth from anyone. Agendas, politics, fanboys mar every single discussion. I feel like John Lennon in this bitch, "just give me some truth"

 

[Ar¢tos]

Bullllllshit.

Bugsnax hype has always been a meme.

... but I want to play Bugsnax...
Not as much as Demon's Souls or Sackboy, but I'm still interested in it!

 

[gamechanger87]

Developers are just normal people, they don't suddenly start typing different on online forums just because they work in the industry.
And not everyone wants to have their identity attached to the account they use to say how much they love A or hate B

So you believe this person is a dev? Have you looked at their post history?

I can just say in a dev, does that make me one?

It was a comment to deflect when nothing about that poster screams any industry experience or knowledge

 

[Lethal01]

So you believe this person is a dev? Have you looked at their post history?

Dev's don't go around screaming that their devs every time they make a post. he's just done nothing that I haven't seen other devs do.

That's all I was saying, that thinking someone isn't a dev because of how type, or because they are fanboys of something is silly.

 

[Kagey K]

The ones running around screaming better specs on paper, or RDNA 2 or 300 times with a magnifying glass are the ones panicking.

They know how these results are about to turn, and want to pretend they didn’t just insult a bunch of developers because they showed a Xbox version first.

 

[onQ123]

I expect to wake up tomorrow to a lot of confused people

 

[Dodo123]

All jokes and memes aside, Knack was such a laughable release that it RECEIVED A SEQUEL. So yeah it did pretty good.
As for Bugsnax, you can say how it is an indie etc. but Sony is promoting the game and they believe in it (they were pushing Octodad as well). Funny or not, maybe we will get a trilogy this time around ^^?

 

[VFXVeteran]

Oh really? Didn’t know most devs wrote in all lower case and warred?

Wanna get verified Mr. Dev?

Mod of War

Maybe he's a dev.. but the way he talks, you would think he might be a dev of some other job.

 

[VFXVeteran]

It’s a night and day difference too

Ghost of Tsushima looks so much better than Infamous SS

The leap from Uncharted to TLOU2 isn’t as big, but it’s still very much present. And UC4 was more of a “mid gen” game anyhow

I think it’s delusional to think we won’t see much better looking games than what we see in the launch window

That's not what I said dude. I said you won't see more performance and/or features at 0 cost. The fact that you guys can't really come up with several examples from last gen means it's just a wishful dream you have. You HOPE that you'll get more RT features than what's being shown now. You HOPE that you'll get faster FPS at higher resolutions, etc.. and that's ok to hope. But be realistic when it comes to what's objectively being shown at the present time with the hardware limitations. It's not going to get much better than that.

 

[FrankWza]

Just because many "techniques" existed at the beginning of the gen doesn't mean that games didn't start getting massively better looking.

Developers start using MORE of these techniques concurrently or they look like better implementations.

You cannot deny that optimizations are far more fine tuned at the end of the gen. Just compare Death Stranding to Horizon to Killzone shadow fall all from GG's engine. There's things being done in Death Stranding that weren't done in those other games.

he created so many variables that the question is bogus. I even quoted where the dev had to create and develop tech to include more trees in the game. He probably googled it and knew that and he tried a preemptive “don’t tell me leaves” changing it just enough from trees so it comes off genuine.

Not only is it delusional, history says it's just plain false. To argue otherwise seems to be trolling/contrarian just for the hell of it.

it has. But going forward, both next gen systems are being built differently. They’re both relying on SSD to give them a boost. Since there is no precedent, it’s impossible to say they’re not going to be able to draw more power later into this coming gen. It’s the initial criteria that’s bogus and he knows it. You have to have a game release at or around release and then get another one in before the generation ends. There are more variables-he added, but that right there narrows it so much it’s a losing battle. With dev cycles getting longer for this graphics intensive gamesand cross gen requirements....forget it

 

[Hunnybun]

That's not what I said dude. I said you won't see more performance and/or features at 0 cost. The fact that you guys can't really come up with several examples from last gen means it's just a wishful dream you have. You HOPE that you'll get more RT features than what's being shown now. You HOPE that you'll get faster FPS at higher resolutions, etc.. and that's ok to hope. But be realistic when it comes to what's objectively being shown at the present time with the hardware limitations. It's not going to get much better than that.

But all people CARE about is how things look, not WHY they look better or worse!!!

Jesus, how do you find this so hard to grasp?

 

[VFXVeteran]

But all people CARE about is how things look, not WHY they look better or worse!!!

Jesus, how do you find this so hard to grasp?

Because you are trying to objectively quantify hardware performance and 3D features with skillset of developers who program them. If you made the argument that developers would make better looking games simply because they will refine their pipelines, story telling and level design, we wouldn't be having an argument.

My original claim has always been that the hardware limitations that you see now will remain (i.e. 4k/30 for RT, 1 or 2 RT features max, upscaling resolutions, etc..). You guys need to stop trying to insinuate that developers don't know their shit and that they have time to learn an architecture that is pretty much the exact same they've been dealing with for the last 7yrs. It's disingenuous to think that a game like Spiderman MM is only using 50% of the GPU power and that the developers don't know much about RT to only include reflections in the game, but later on, they'll somehow make the game use 99% of the GPU power and you'll see 4k/60FPS with Nanite technology running RT GI, shadows, reflections etc.. all on the same hardware.

 

[Hunnybun]

Because you are trying to objectively quantify hardware performance and 3D features with skillset of developers who program them. If you made the argument that developers would make better looking games simply because they will refine their pipelines, story telling and level design, we wouldn't be having an argument.

My original claim has always been that the hardware limitations that you see now will remain (i.e. 4k/30 for RT, 1 or 2 RT features max, upscaling resolutions, etc..). You guys need to stop trying to insinuate that developers don't know their shit and that they have time to learn an architecture that is pretty much the exact same they've been dealing with for the last 7yrs. It's disingenuous to think that a game like Spiderman MM is only using 50% of the GPU power and that the developers don't know much about RT to only include reflections in the game, but later on, they'll somehow make the game use 99% of the GPU power and you'll see 4k/60FPS with Nanite technology running RT GI, shadows, reflections etc.. all on the same hardware.

Has anyone actually made that claim?

 

[RayHell]

Yeah

 

[Hunnybun]

Where?

In any case, even on that I'm not sure he's correct. We've already seen RT on Minecraft running on an SX at WAY higher quality than anything else on the consoles.

So it's not some hard limit. It depends on the other uses of the power.

So effectively all he's saying is "the consoles will never have more power than they're released with".

Which is bordering on the tautological.

 

[Mildudon]

 

[Redlancet]

Oh really? Didn’t know most devs wrote in all lower case and warred?

Wanna get verified Mr. Dev?

Mod of War

any mod can have my mobygames page if they ask in private,dont be butthurt son

 

[Redlancet]

Developers are just normal people, they don't suddenly start typing different on online forums just because they work in the industry.
And not everyone wants to have their identity attached to the account they use to say how much they love A or hate B

nah,dont give this poor soul any attention,he is clearly butthurt,just ignore the poor dude,as i said before any mod can pm and i will give him the receipts