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[Spokker]

I'm confused. I need Digital Foundry to tell me what to think.

 

[Gavon West]

I agree until we start seeing frames stutter and things like that because they are trying to squeeze too much out of it. I am not against the console but the narrative has been most powerful console by the Xbox faithful and now all of a sudden 4TF is being praised as the second coming of console gaming.

Its not 4TF like this gen. This is RDNA2. The performance is much higher and better than One X. The only real difference you'll see is in resolution. Everything else is next gen. I think the "S" should stand for Smart. Its a damn smart box. lol. I'm getting one for sure. The bedroom TV is 1080p.

 

[mckmas8808]

Some of us have recognized this for a while. But I don't think I imagined people who thought Series X was the baseline, and Series S would just have resolution turned down. I agree with OP to be clear - Series S is the baseline for MS next gen. Unfortunately, I think it will also be the baseline for all 3rd party games next gen.

Yeah some of us were smart enough to catch on to this months ago. It's mind-blowing that MS actually is doing this.

 

[LittleBusters]

This will be seen as the console for poor people.

Nintendo Switch at $299 = console for poor people?

 

[Barakov]

Sounding like a broken record here but no disc drive = this thing is useless to me. MS is really trying real hard to usher in the digital future here(Sony to a degree too) so my response is this : Fuck Off.

 

[Katajx]

Context and performance targets are relevant here. The Series X and PS5 seem to be targeting 4K. The Series S isn’t.

 

[Topfuel]

This just came apparent to you?

 

[reinking]

Its not 4TF like this gen. This is RDNA2. The performance is much higher and better than One X. The only real difference you'll see is in resolution. Everything else is next gen. I think the "S" should stand for Smart. Its a damn smart box. lol. I'm getting one for sure. The bedroom TV is 1080p.

I know and I disagree. It would be crazy that a 4TF GPU would output the same graphics as a 12TF GPU with just a difference in resolution. I will believe it when I see it. Who knows. Maybe I will feel like the Series X was Overkill.

 

[Northeastmonk]

It’s facinating how I could play RE Village on this and it costs me less than the console + game on Xbox One.

 

[Astral Dog]

You're still missing the point. Xbox is the platform they are trying to sell, the consoles are just hardware pieces part of the line up.

They have to kill that idea unless they want more Infinite meltdowns

 

[Astral Dog]

I wonder most about the framerate, resolution is easy to understand but games like DMC or DOOM wich are hugely optimised to run smoothly on consoles, will the Series S be the baseline then instead of PS5? I imagine its not as easy as tuning down effects or resolution but the games still need to run at 60fps.

I guess if the CPU is the same that could work

 

[Zok310]

Not at 4tf.
3 years into the gen 90% of people that purchased the S at launch are gonna have to upgrade to keep up with devs pushing the envelope on the X hardware.

 

[digoutyoursoul]

Sickening reading that, seeing what Xbox has become. Definitely feels like I was a fan of a totally different brand over a decade ago.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

• Technically, this spec WILL BE the baseline for next gen on Xbox. Any developer making a game for Xbox, will be starting from Series S and scale across Series X/PC etc). Series S is only 1/3 the GPU power of Series X and less than 1/2 the GPU power of PS5. This WILL BE a factor when looking at exclusive next gen 'Xbox' games versus 'PlayStation' games going forward!

This part is the one thing that still gives me pause with the whole strategy. Technically speaking, if it can do 1440p120 native, it should be able to do 2K60 and 4K30 native as well. However, with less RAM, less bandwidth and less raw GPU compute performance than PS5 and Series X, that isn't going to be those resolutions and framerates with the same "visual density" of PS5 and Series X games.

That said, it really does come down to how many 1st-party games use the Series S as the baseline vs. how many use Series X. So I do disagree with your bullet point here WRT ALL 1st-party games using Series S as the baseline; it will come down to what the teams feel gives them the best performance for their vision, and I believe someone at MS (maybe it was Phil?) already said this in an interview back in early July.

So for example, let's say there's a 3rd Ori game; I don't see why they would target Series X as their baseline, so they could go for Series S instead. However, a game like Hellblade 2, or a Series port of FS2020...those would probably target Series X as the baseline and scale down to work on Series S.

They have the flexibility especially if their GameCore SDK platform is sufficient enough (development on it may've been why devkits were "behind" as some insiders were saying way back), and I think given MS's stance to give their teams the freedom they need, it makes the most sense. So yes, SOME 1st-party will use Series S as the baseline but MS aren't dumb enough to mandate this across the entire 1st-party lot; they WILL allow studios to use Series X as their baseline if they so see fit is worth it to achieve the pinnacle of their game vision.

And I mean, let's not pretend every PS5 1st-party exclusive is going to maximize the capabilities of that platform, either. Already we can see a MASSIVE gulf in visual quality between the Astrobot pack-in and R&C: Rift Apart, for instance. Or that new Sackboy game and HZD: Forbidden West. Sony doesn't go telling its studios "Okay, you ALL need to target the absolute highest, most realistic visual fidelity point-blank or else!". That'd be business suicide for them.

The difference between the two is that Sony isn't offering an economy-class retail gaming unit scaled to that lower-end of visual capability. MS are. But structurally in terms of what levels of performance studios will be able to target, MS's two-console strategy actually changes nothing. A game developed with Series S as the baseline will perform the same of Series X. A game with Series X as baseline will get downported to work well on Series S.

As a platform-holder they are still creating games that run the gamut of less-intensive and more-intensive visuals as Sony or even Nintendo; MS is just the only one who has two differently scaled next-gen platforms to accommodate both all that range or just the lower bound depending on customer financials, and the internal dev resources to minimize workload in scalability from the high-end to lower-end as much as possible in a way Sony and Nintendo wouldn't be able to provide.

That's honestly the only difference here.

This means that the X will have boosted image quality, resolution, post processing. Basically cheap (development wise) options to take advantage of it's capabilities, but it will never have a game built from the ground up to take advantage of it. PS5 will have more to show off it's teraflops, despite having less of them.

This is a 100% wrong and flawed premise; just read my response above to understand why. Devs will be able to choose which performance level they feel their games need to hit in order to reach their vision and if that happens to exceed Series S, then they will just downport the game for that version (either that or have another, smaller internal team work on scaling that version down).

If I happen to end up wrong on this I'll be the first to eat crow, but it just seems like a sensible approach IMHO. It would help if MS actually clearly and openly communicated this in their messaging and marketing, however, because if people get the wrong idea and that idea proliferates, it could hurt initial adoption rates among the hardcore/core gaming segments which could impact adoption rates with the casuals and mainstreams as well.

 

[Katajx]

Just a quick search turned up these results. After looking at a different article from PC Gamer it shows the 2060 at around 6 tflops and the 2080 TI at about 13.4. Edit- has GPUs misaligned from my sources.

I know I didn’t spend enough time looking for a comparison to make the numbers align a little better, but here is one game with the same CPU and different levels of GPU performance at multiple resolutions.

I know and I disagree. It would be crazy that a 4TF GPU would output the same graphics as a 12TF GPU with just a difference in resolution. I will believe it when I see it. Who knows. Maybe I will feel like the Series X was Overkill.

RTX 2060 vs RTX 2080 Ti Game Performance Benchmarks (i7-8700K vs i7-8700K) - GPUCheck United States / USA

RTX 2060 versus RTX 2080 Ti performance comparison. Compare graphics card gaming performance in 43 games and in 1080p, 1440p, and 4K at Ultra, High, Medium, and Low quality settings. Compare specifications, price, power, temperature, and CPU bottlenecks.

www.gpucheck.com

 

[joe_zazen]

4TF is now next gen?

Isn’t it hilarious? Nintendo must be happy as their next handheld will be able to play all non sony games.

 

[Son_of_Zardoz]

Whole lot of angry tears in here from people who aren't buying XSS to begin with.

If the PS4 Pro could do a fantastic job "faking" 4K (I don't have one but from what I understand it was so well implemented that it was basically unnoticeable) and the XSX & PS5 are likely to use the same techniques along with many new ones to hit 4K in games that push the systems, why can't XSS use those same techniques to hit it's lower resolution targets for demanding games? Is this that crazy of a jump in logic?

 

[Walter Matthau]

Edit

 

[Snake29]

Its not 4TF like this gen. This is RDNA2. The performance is much higher and better than One X. The only real difference you'll see is in resolution. Everything else is next gen. I think the "S" should stand for Smart. Its a damn smart box. lol. I'm getting one for sure. The bedroom TV is 1080p.

It will be more then only resolution.....

 

[treemk]

This is a 100% wrong and flawed premise; just read my response above to understand why. Devs will be able to choose which performance level they feel their games need to hit in order to reach their vision and if that happens to exceed Series S, then they will just downport the game for that version (either that or have another, smaller internal team work on scaling that version down).

I just think your downplaying how easy it will be, ultimately any features that become too difficult to downport to a One S will be cut.

 

[teezzy]

You play Xbox how you want to play. That's the idea. There is no true Xbox

Yes Series S is gonna outsell X
X is marketed towards enthusiasts, custom built PCs even moreso

SERIES S is convenient and enticingly cheap.
That's enough for most people who dont spend all day pinching their nipples on video game forums.

I swear im being trolled at this point

 

[n0razi]

$200 is great for a secondary or third console

 

[Jigga117]

It will be more then only resolution.....

You have had hands on already? Just from the initial video specs it has features we still havent had confirmed for PS5. Variable rate shading, RDNA2 becuasue they can’t just tell us directly it is a full on RDNA2 in the PS5. seems like not much is missing apart from 4k up scaling for games vs native 4k.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

The X is still coming out. This is just for people that want to play games but are broke.

 

[Snake29]

You have had hands on already? Just from the initial video specs it has features we still havent had confirmed for PS5. Variable rate shading, RDNA2 becuasue they can’t just tell us directly it is a full on RDNA2 in the PS5. seems like not much is missing apart from 4k up scaling for games vs native 4k.

What's full RDNA2 even saying in real world? Those chips are custom and if Sony has a different solution for some tech, then they do not have to use the base AMD RDNA2 features they are using for their GPU's. People where claiming the PS5 would struggle in resolution, framerate and graphics performance compared to the XSX. While the difference is less then 17% between those 2, the XSS could handle everything exactly as the XSX, but only difference would be resolution?

Yeah....right!

And FYI, PS5 games are 4K native confirmed. Some of the games have dynamic 4K/60 mode. Do not get your hopes up that all XSX games will be native 4K if DLSS kinda tech for both consoles are also around the corner.

 

[THE DUCK]

You play Xbox how you want to play. That's the idea. There is no true Xbox

Yes Series S is gonna outsell X
X is marketed towards enthusiasts, custom built PCs even moreso

SERIES S is convenient and enticingly cheap.
That's enough for most people who dont spend all day pinching their nipples on video game forums.

I swear im being trolled at this point

Unfortunately not being trolled I bet, there are many on this board that can't see past their own preference, anything else is garbage to them. (regardless of whether said item has actual benefit to some gamers)
They keep saying the S will bring down every version of the game, despite the fact that console games for Xbox and PS4 had the same thing happen this generation, where nobody complained.
Despite the fact that PC gaming has always been like this, but they don't say PC is compromised, and have no answer for either argument other than some random developer out of hundreds says they can't handle it or made the next gen version stand alone.

They are also ignoring the end product - the games coming out of a Series S on a 55" TV from 10 ft away will look identical to a S from 10 feet away (or identical on a 1080p tv, which many still own).
But yet those on this forum say it offers no value to those people, it makes zero sense unless you see it though the filter of everything that isn't my brand is bad.

 

[THE DUCK]

The X is still coming out. This is just for people that want to play games but are broke.

Ignorant comment, hope one day you can't afford what you want.

 

[angrod14]

I think no matter how cheap the Series S is, it will never outsell the PS5. It won't even come close. PS5 -and thus, Series X- will be the baseline to devs, and they will scale down everything they need -resolution, effects, etc.- in order to make their games run on the S, just like they do to make games like Doom or The Witcher III run on the Switch.

On a side note, if MS has learned something from the recent Halo presentation, they know gamers want their exclusives to look cutting edge, so they will try to push the next Gears, etc. with Series X specs in mind first and foremost.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

Ignorant comment

It isn't. This is literally the budget option.

hope one day you can't afford what you want.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

No disc drive. I don't think the market is ready to accept a discless SKU as the lead console. Too many Gen X and older people still alive that haven't been brainwashed into trading ownership rights for the epic convenience of not having to get up off of the couch and take three steps to switch a disc.

 

[DaGwaphics]

I know and I disagree. It would be crazy that a 4TF GPU would output the same graphics as a 12TF GPU with just a difference in resolution. I will believe it when I see it. Who knows. Maybe I will feel like the Series X was Overkill.

Let me put this into perspective for you a bit:

Here is a monster RTX 2080 Ti running Dues Ex at 4K at Ultra @ 52fps:

Here is a lowly (by comparison) GTX 1660 running Dues Ex at 1080p Ultra @ 55fps:

This is the way it always has worked and always will work.

 

[Sw0pDiller]

Series s for 299 is going to make a lot of xbone owners jump ship really fast and might even take some ps4 users with them. But I feel.that ps5 in all its 10tf glory for 399 de plus all those next gen games is going to have allmost no contest this generation. It's just 100 buck more expensive and packs a whole lot of punch extra. Plus the most important bit: they have the games...

 

[Oppoi]

This is the strategy right here: Karen walks into video games store tired of hearing the noise of her offspring crying for the PS5 and what does she see? What seems like a better deal because look at all the benefits! Congrats Karen! You go Karen!

 

[THE DUCK]

It isn't. This is literally the budget option.

It's one thing to say it's less expensive, it's another to be condescending and say it's for people who are broke (and makes people who can't afford more sound negative even though they are not).

There are many other possibilities:

People who spend money on other things (trips, phones, education, saving for a house)
People with 1080p TV's who see no value in 4K
People with kids who don't want to spend $500 on a console
And yes some people who can't afford the more expensive console, period

I'm lucky, I have enough saved for 3 machines, but not everyone is in that situation, especially in light of the current economy.

 

[Alebrije]

Series S will sell more than X for sure...we are on a global crysis and in the U.S. not everyone can spend on a new console now, so $300 for a pseudo next gen console is good , you get better peeformance than XboneX for just 300 bucks.

S Its a good console and it seems Microsoft knows tha current global economy is not ready for a 500- 600 console.

 

[Oppoi]

It's one thing to say it's less expensive, it's another to be condescending and say it's for people who are broke (and makes people who can't afford more sound negative even though they are not).

There are many other possibilities:

People who spend money on other things (trips, phones, education, saving for a house)
People with 1080p TV's who see no value in 4K
People with kids who don't want to spend $500 on a console
And yes some people who can't afford the more expensive console, period

I'm lucky, I have enough saved for 3 machines, but not everyone is in that situation, especially in light of the current economy.

zzz zzz zzzz

 

[alabtrosMyster]

Funny thing is that people used to say that the Xbox One would be baseline and that it would negate every and all benefits the PS4 has over it.... That did not turn out that way.

Also, the system's only performance differentiator compared to the sex machine is its slower GPU and the associated memory (smaller and slower)... which falls in line with scaling games back to 1080p (compared to a presumed 4k target on x)... I think this kind of scaling makes sense.

 

[Jigga117]

What's full RDNA2 even saying in real world? Those chips are custom and if Sony has a different solution for some tech, then they do not have to use the base AMD RDNA2 features they are using for their GPU's. People where claiming the PS5 would struggle in resolution, framerate and graphics performance compared to the XSX. While the difference is less then 17% between those 2, the XSS could handle everything exactly as the XSX, but only difference would be resolution?

Yeah....right!

And FYI, PS5 games are 4K native confirmed. Some of the games have dynamic 4K/60 mode. Do not get your hopes up that all XSX games will be native 4K if DLSS kinda tech for both consoles are also around the corner.

PS5 and Xbox will have some games native 4k. Like the PS4 Pro I expect them to meet that with checkered vs Xbox series X reaching native and 60fps by specs alone. Guess we will see. I plan on getting the Series X and PS5 down the road.

 

[Jigga117]

Let me put this into perspective for you a bit:

Here is a monster RTX 2080 Ti running Dues Ex at 4K at Ultra @ 52fps:

Here is a lowly (by comparison) GTX 1660 running Dues Ex at 1080p Ultra @ 55fps:

This is the way it always has worked and always will work.

Except these consoles are not GeForce or RDNA 1 So using this as a base is irrelevant.

it is the same problem people comparing the 3080 10GB vs the 2080Ti 11GB that have 2 different types of ram and yet the increase in performance is there for the 3080 we are waiting on benchmarks for all of this.

 

[SLoWMoTIoN]

It's one thing to say it's less expensive, it's another to be condescending and say it's for people who are broke (and makes people who can't afford more sound negative even though they are not).

That's what being broke is. Going for the cheaper option because you can't afford a 500 dollar machine even if you saved up. ANYWAY I only said this because OP is implying the S is going to hold back next gen when it is most likely going to be like the vanilla ONE was to the X at worse. I didn't mean to trigger you or anything, hell I didn't even think I could trigger anyone here with such a whatever comment lol.

 

[01011001]

Let me put this into perspective for you a bit:

Here is a monster RTX 2080 Ti running Dues Ex at 4K at Ultra @ 52fps:

Here is a lowly (by comparison) GTX 1660 running Dues Ex at 1080p Ultra @ 55fps:

This is the way it always has worked and always will work.

people really don't understand how performance scales with resolution... resolution is a giant part of how GPU heavy a game is

 

[indigoSociety]

So pretty much ONCE AGAIN in some form consoles are holding back pc gaming mightily as always. Guarantee ps5 has more exclusives than ever with this being the case. At least sony makes that leap forward and really emphasizes a new generation being something important. Because lets be honest why are we spending all this money if were not getting something better and more advanced ? We will see big leaps in their games from a technical standpoint. I mean look at ratchet and thats a launch window game. Really cant stand microsoft’s strategy this generation. It feels like a clever and very profitable way of waving the white flag. But at the same time it no longer feels like theyre trying to beat sony at anything involving game development. Really hope a lot of people hop on the pc bandwagon so maybe just maybee we see some pc exclusives that take advantage of current technologies. On the console front now i kinda hope ps outsells xbox by a wide margin and i have no fanboy bias. Only so devs prioritize the console making the greater effort to make technical leaps. These advancements are important to devs as well lets not forget.

 

[01011001]

So pretty much ONCE AGAIN consoles are holding back pc gaming mightily as always. Guarantee ps5 has more exclusives than ever with this being the case. At least sony makes that leap forward and really emphasizes a new generation being something important. Because lets be honest why are we spending all this money if were not getting something better and more advanced ? We will see big leaps in their games from a technical standpoint. I mean look at ratchet and thats a launch window game. Really cant stand microsoft’s strategy this generation. It feels like a clever and very profitable way of waving the white flag. But at the same time it no longer feels like theyre trying to beat sony at anything involving game development. Really hope a lot of people hop on the pc bandwagon so maybe just maybee we see some pc exclusives that take advantage of current technologies. On the console front now i kinda hope ps outsells xbox by a wide margin and i have no fanboy bias. Only so devs prioritize the console making the greater effort to make technical leaps.

another person who has no idea how modern engines run on modern hardware.

why is everyone on this forum so ignorant? it's crazy

 

[onQ123]

Most of you fail to realize that there isn't a next generation of Xbox just new models

 

[njean777]

Anybody saying that Xbox fanboys were claiming that the X is the most powerful, well that didn't change. The Series X is more powerful than the PS5..... the series S drop didn't change that. They have the cheapest and most powerful on lock. PS5 is in the middle (nothing wrong with that btw). We shall see which strategy works in the long run.

 

[DavJay]

Could have been a win if the S included a disc drive. So all this time the One X was a next gen console in disguise.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Except these consoles are not GeForce or RDNA 1 So using this as a base is irrelevant.

it is the same problem people comparing the 3080 10GB vs the 2080Ti 11GB that have 2 different types of ram and yet the increase in performance is there for the 3080 we are waiting on benchmarks for all of this.

My point was only to illustrate scalability across a range of cards of the same architecture. I did this with Turing simply because AMD hasn't brought a complete line of cards to market in a long time, they've been just working low-mid, so not much spread between extremes. But rest assured this scaling will be present across Ampere and any future architectures.

Could have been a win if the S included a disc drive. So all this time the One X was a next gen console in disguise.

I'd trade you the BR drive for the Zen 2 CPU and Nvme SSD any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

 

[DeepEnigma]

9 months of xbox fanboys crowing over 12 teraflops this and teraflops that, and on a dime all of a sudden they don't care.

Imagine carrying water for a 4TF box in 2020, after you spent almost a year pining over 12 vs 10 and how 10 is weak sauce.

 

[Heavy_D206]

I'm not super savvy with tech specs so I'm a little confused. Is the Series S an improvement over the PS4 Pro or One X?

 

[indigoSociety]

another person who has no idea how modern engines run on modern hardware.

why is everyone on this forum so ignorant? it's crazy

Go head grammar police. I remember you from my other post trying to be the lamest form of human and shame me for saying would of instead of would’ve like the internet is a place where people prioritize such things. Usually the insult used when someone has nothing of substance to say. So go head bro instead of criticizing and calling me ignorant why dont you take me to school. Teach me something. What dont i know? Substance please. Let me guess you dont have time , right ? Yeah but you werent busy enough to make this comment though. I have humility and i can admit when im wrong so go head say something instead of throwing insults.