DaGwaphics
Member
Never noticed this before, we'll see how long it takes them to get 250 - 300GB/s of memory bandwidth on a portable, until then, no sir.
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Let's Be Clear: Xbox Series S Is Microsoft's Real Next Gen Xbox
- Thread starter Tqaulity
- Start date
Never noticed this before, we'll see how long it takes them to get 250 - 300GB/s of memory bandwidth on a portable, until then, no sir.
LordOfChaos
Member
I've actually been told by a highly credible figure that there is no series S?
/s if you're stupid
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MrFunSocks
Banned
The "baseline" that you concerned folk keep talking about isn't what you think it is.
The "baseline" is a Zen 2 CPU, SSD, and RDNA2 architecture and features. If the XSX can render something at 4K then the XSS can render that same thing at 1080p, because 1080p is 1/4 of 4K but the XSS has 1/3 the GPU power and 1/2 the RAM with the same everything else.
The "baseline" is a Zen 2 CPU, SSD, and RDNA2 architecture and features. If the XSX can render something at 4K then the XSS can render that same thing at 1080p, because 1080p is 1/4 of 4K but the XSS has 1/3 the GPU power and 1/2 the RAM with the same everything else.
THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
I would say for me, I can get good money out of the X right now, and replace it for every little loss with the XSS. So no money lost really, and a more powerful machine over overall that loads much faster. And in that room it's 9 feet from a 49 inch TV, 4K mean absolutely nothing.
Plus it will also play more games going forward that the X might not play down the road.
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THE DUCK
voted poster of the decade by bots
You could say that about almost any device, and by then I could likely grab a series X for $250, so no big deal.
Keihart
Member
This is so innacurate, bumping and lowering resolution it's not a magical trade off, it surely can give you more time for frame but that it's only if you are maxing out the bandwidth. Have you ever played on PC before last generation? you could see the real difference when gaming when comparing generational leaps in cards and games. Like using a current gen VGA with a current gen game vs the same game with a last gen VGA.Let me put this into perspective for you a bit:
Here is a monster RTX 2080 Ti running Dues Ex at 4K at Ultra @ 52fps:
Here is a lowly (by comparison) GTX 1660 running Dues Ex at 1080p Ultra @ 55fps:
This is the way it always has worked and always will work.
DaGwaphics
Member
Again, not a concern of mine with this post. This was only demonstrating scalability of GPU architecture. Did games stop being scalable at the start of last gen? Nope, and they aren't this gen either. The XSX and XSS are set in stone with the same arch of GPU tech, what developers choose to do with that tech is up to them. Sure a 1080p game on XSX would not be the intended target, but I"m sure that would figure in some good upscaling techniques to fake 4k. The XSS version of that game would need the same upscaling techniques and probably a few lowered settings to fake 1080p.
Hezekiah
Banned
PS5 and XSX will at least be able to render games at the same resolution that most people's tv's output at.
And to be honest I was being generous - I think it'll look dated well before then.
Also, why pay $250 twice for 2 different pieces of hardware (assuming XSX drops down to $250 when you think it will), why not just get the premium hardware for $500 right away?
I feel like this console is only worthwhile to the most budget-conscious gamers. And even then I feel like many may aswell stay with their current-gen console for the time being.
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Sleepwalker
Member
Some people really think 4k TVs are that common, huh? "most" people definitely don't have one.
pixelation
Member
Just imagine Craig running on Series S... he was such a beaut running on a PC equivalent to the Series X.
But for real, who'd want to buy the lesser console?. I can see it really struggling to run actual next gen games once they start coming out, I'd just save up and get the digital PS4 because the only thing different on that one (compared to the PS5) is gonna be the lack of a disc drive. Specs wise it's gonna be the same as a regular PS5, it's a no brainer really.
But for real, who'd want to buy the lesser console?. I can see it really struggling to run actual next gen games once they start coming out, I'd just save up and get the digital PS4 because the only thing different on that one (compared to the PS5) is gonna be the lack of a disc drive. Specs wise it's gonna be the same as a regular PS5, it's a no brainer really.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Series X is/was a carrot to avoid losing the hardcore base to Sony. But just cause they made the box doesn't mean MS will have the allegiance for this coming gen of millions of Xbox hardcore. We know millions have jumped ship this gen and many more have already made the plan to do so next-gen. The box is only part of the equation - ultimately, the games are king.
Going for the budget gamer and casual Nintendo demographic without the content for that audience is not a sound strategy either. Looks to me like MS will be sandwitched by Nintendo on one end, and Sony on the other end. No man's land.
Going for the budget gamer and casual Nintendo demographic without the content for that audience is not a sound strategy either. Looks to me like MS will be sandwitched by Nintendo on one end, and Sony on the other end. No man's land.
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What if there's a mid-gen refresh? Series S owners would be in a prime position if that's the case.
YeulEmeralda
Member
Its also important to remember that Sony still out sold Xbox360 at the "disastrous" five hundred and ninety nine US dollar in Europe and Asia.
Zuzu
Member
Like others have said, it seems that the baseline this gen is the CPU, the SSD and the general Navi architecture. These things are held in common between both Series S and Series X, while the RAM and power differentials between the GPUs allow for scalability up and down resolutions and with visual settings. I wouldn't be too worried about the Series S holding back the Series X because they share a common architecture.
The only area I would be concerned with is if a developer wants to create a visually demanding game at 1440p and 30fps for the Series X (e.g. imagine a game with the fidelity of the Unreal Engine 5 tech demo). Would the Series S mean that a developer can't push visual fidelity at that frame rate and resolution for the Series X because they also have to run the same game on the Series S? I don't know, but my guess would be that it still wouldn't be too much of a problem. The developer should still be able to lower effects/visual settings and lower the resolution down to 900p or even 720p on the Series S. 720p or 900p isn't too bad on a 1080p TV, especially for the target audience that this console is aiming towards. This would enable the Series X to run high fidelity games at 1440p/30fps without being hamstrung by the Series S.
The only area I would be concerned with is if a developer wants to create a visually demanding game at 1440p and 30fps for the Series X (e.g. imagine a game with the fidelity of the Unreal Engine 5 tech demo). Would the Series S mean that a developer can't push visual fidelity at that frame rate and resolution for the Series X because they also have to run the same game on the Series S? I don't know, but my guess would be that it still wouldn't be too much of a problem. The developer should still be able to lower effects/visual settings and lower the resolution down to 900p or even 720p on the Series S. 720p or 900p isn't too bad on a 1080p TV, especially for the target audience that this console is aiming towards. This would enable the Series X to run high fidelity games at 1440p/30fps without being hamstrung by the Series S.
Series S owners will be able to play the biggest and most popular games. Third-party games are nearly all games.
If exclusive games are king for you, then it's time for to ditch Playstation and move to Nintendo. According to NPD, of the top twenty best selling games in 2019, only ONE was a Sony exclusive, FIVE were Nintendo games.
Top ten best selling PS4 games in 2019? Only ONE was an exclusive.
NPD: The 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the U.S.
it's time to run down the 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the United States, according to industry-tracking firm The NPD Group.
venturebeat.com
VFXVeteran
Banned
Only if those games aren't being ported for PC. If so, then they will be straddling two worlds. It's only better that way anyway - at least for game engines.
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VFXVeteran
Banned
Graphics engines these days are extremely scalable. They have to be for the very reason you just mentioned.
JLB
Banned
of course, but if the argument is purely if these consoles will be outdated in 5 years, a 100%.
MrFunSocks
Banned
825GB with 4K assets is probably worse than 512GB with 1080p assets actually.Don't forget that 825GB is not enough storage but suddenly 512GB is.
Knitted Knight
Banned
You're assumming Series S will have full third party support. At this point (considering the specs) we may be looking at a Nintendo situation (with regards to third party support) 1-2 years down the line for the Series S. That box will live by its adoption rate - not the strength of the hardware - which is serverely lacking relative to the competition, or even its bigger brother.
The sales pitch framing sounds almost perfect except the Series S doesn't exist in a vacuum. The competition (PS5) does better on almost every parameter imaginable - from third party support to exclusives, to the hardware itself. Thus the rational consumer will gravitate towards the better product. That's not to say all consumers behave rationally, millions do not.... it's just that the product mix is better served by the competition and that ultimately wins out.
Xbox had the lowest priced, and the power crown this gen and it did jack shit for them. All of the sudden the dynamics will change because? No exclusives? fresh start? digital rental service?
MS is going into next gen in tatters with no significant differentiators.... after a disaster July show/Infinite delay + an unceremonious leak announcement to their "ace" in the hole. Xbox has become the default "other brand" more or less.If exclusive games are king for you, then it's time for to ditch Playstation and move to Nintendo. According to NPD, of the top twenty best selling games in 2019, only ONE was a Sony exclusive, FIVE were Nintendo games.
Top ten best selling PS4 games in 2019? Only ONE was an exclusive.
NPD: The 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the U.S.
it's time to run down the 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the United States, according to industry-tracking firm The NPD Group.
Nice pitch here too, except I like what I get as an adult gamer on Playstation more so than what Nintendo puts out. That is not to say I don't like casual games, they're very much part of my palette and I do plan on getting a Switch some day for Breath of the Wild 2/Metroid. The Wii U left a bitter taste in my mouth as a first day adopter that's all - despite loving the few offerings there (3D World, DKTF, Breath of the Wild). Variety is the spice of life...... you can't go wrong with Disney Plus, true, but neither can you with HBO Max. Basic cable well...
Nice to see you marketing Nintendo. I know doing so for Xbox has been hard on you.
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MrFunSocks
Banned
Developers don't have a choice. If you make a game for the Series X it builds for the Series S too.You're assumming Series S will have full third party support. At this point (considering the specs) we may be looking at a Nintendo situation (with regards to third party support) 1-2 years down the line for the Series S. That box will live by its adoption rate - not the strength of the hardware - which is serverely lacking relative to the competition, or even its bigger brother.
The sales pitch framing sounds almost perfect except the Series S doesn't exist in a vacuum. The competition (PS5) does better on almost every parameter imaginable - from third party support to exclusives, to the hardware itself. Thus the rational consumer will gravitate towards the better product. That's not to say all consumers behave rationally, millions do not.... it's just that the product mix is better served by the competition and that ultimately wins out.
Xbox had the lowest priced, and the power crown this gen and it did jack shit for them. All of the sudden the dynamics will change because? No exclusives? fresh start? digital rental service?
Nice pitch here too, except I like what I get as an adult gamer on Playstation more so than what Nintendo puts out. That is not to say I don't like casual games, they're very much part of my palette and I do plan on getting a Switch some day for Breath of the Wild 2/Metroid. The Wii U left a bitter taste in my mouth as a first day adopter that's all - despite loving the few offerings there (3D World, DKTF, Breath of the Wild). Variety is the spice of life...... you can't go wrong with Disney Plus, true, but neither can you with HBO Max. Basic cable well...
Nice to see you marketing Nintendo. I know doing so for Xbox has been hard on you.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Ohh but they do. They can even ignore the Xbox next-gen platforms all together like many Japanese devs do (the little one and the big one).
I would however love to see the inside info and technical papers that describe in detail and word for word the claim you just made. Unless it's an assumption.
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I can barely even see the goalposts anymore you've moved them so far. I can still make them out though, even hidden behind that wall of text.You're assumming Series S will have full third party support. At this point (considering the specs) we may be looking at a Nintendo situation (with regards to third party support) 1-2 years down the line for the Series S. That box will live by its adoption rate - not the strength of the hardware - which is serverely lacking relative to the competition, or even its bigger brother.
The sales pitch framing sounds almost perfect except the Series S doesn't exist in a vacuum. The competition (PS5) does better on almost every parameter imaginable - from third party support to exclusives, to the hardware itself. Thus the rational consumer will gravitate towards the better product. That's not to say all consumers behave rationally, millions do not.... it's just that the product mix is better served by the competition and that ultimately wins out.
Xbox had the lowest priced, and the power crown this gen and it did jack shit for them. All of the sudden the dynamics will change because? No exclusives? fresh start? digital rental service?
Nice pitch here too, except I like what I get as an adult gamer on Playstation more so than what Nintendo puts out. That is not to say I don't like casual games, they're very much part of my palette and I do plan on getting a Switch some day for Breath of the Wild 2/Metroid. The Wii U left a bitter taste in my mouth as a first day adopter that's all - despite loving the few offerings there (3D World, DKTF, Breath of the Wild). Variety is the spice of life...... you can't go wrong with Disney Plus, true, but neither can you with HBO Max. Basic cable well...
Nice to see you marketing Nintendo. I know doing so for Xbox has been hard on you.
The rational consumer might decide that price is the key factor. The rational consumer might decide that the most powerful console is the best place to play third-party games. Third-party games are nearly all games, after all.
Remember, only one Sony exclusive made the top twenty in 2019 (NPD).
NPD: The 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the U.S.
it's time to run down the 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the United States, according to industry-tracking firm The NPD Group.
venturebeat.com
This new fiction that you've created, that third-parties won't release a Series S version, is the very definition of FUD. It's one I haven't heard before though, so I'll give you a little credit for originality, even though it's sounding increasingly desperate.
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MrFunSocks
Banned
No they don't have a choice, devs can't make Series X games but not Series S games. They're one and the same, different performance profiles.
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Knitted Knight
Banned
I guess the debate you're making here is not whether devs have no choice (they do), it's whether once they've made the choice to make a game for Xbox; going through the process and making sure the game (code) works on both the Series S and Series X isn't as hard due to commonality of hardware and architecture. That's is #1, far from the absolute claim and #2, still subject to devs. Unless I'm wrong the SDK for Series X will not magically make sure a game with a 10-12 TF target somehow magically downscales properly in frame-rate/resolution/effects to a 4 TF machine without dev input. For me to believe that, I need the receipts I asked. A totally different argument is for devs to initially target 4 TF, and then upscale. Maybe you're suggesting the SDK is identical for both boxes and thus all games are made with the baseline 4 TF console in mind - with Series X just being a tickbox machine brute forcing marginal improvements. I can only imagine in that scenario how underutilized that system will be (PC like). At any rate, in the absolute term, devs have choice, and in the muddied scenario we need receipts for either claim (yours or mine). Maybe
BGs
could shed some light on that (if NDA's "allow").
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I guess the debate you're making here is not whether devs have no choice (they do), it's whether once they've made the choice to make a game for Xbox; going through the process and making sure the game (code) works on both the Series S and Series X isn't as hard due to commonality of hardware and architecture. That's is #1, far from the absolute claim and #2, still subject to devs. Unless I'm wrong the SDK for Series X will not magically make sure a game with a 10-12 TF target somehow magically downscales properly in frame-rate/resolution/effects to a 4 TF machine without dev input. For me to believe that, I need the receipts I asked. A totally different argument is for devs to initially target 4 TF, and then upscale. Maybe you're suggesting the SDK is identical for both boxes and thus all games are made with the baseline 4 TF console in mind - with Series X just being a tickbox machine. I can only imagine in that scenario how underutilized that system will be. At any rate, in the absolute term, devs have choice, and in the muddied scenario we need receipts for either claim (yours or mine). Maybe
You have made the claim that third party developers won't support Series S. Now you're making the claim that Series S is the target machine and Series X will get low-effort ports.
You have zero evidence for either of your claims. It's only you that need to provide receipts.
Knitted Knight
Banned
I can barely even see the goalposts anymore you've moved them so far. I can still make them out though, even hidden behind that wall of text.
The rational consumer might decide that price is the key factor. The rational consumer might decide that the most powerful console is the best place to play third-party games. Third-party games are nearly all games, after all.
Remember, only one Sony exclusive made the top twenty in 2019 (NPD).
NPD: The 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the U.S.
it's time to run down the 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the United States, according to industry-tracking firm The NPD Group.
This new fiction that you've created, that third-parties won't release a Series S version, is the very definition of FUD. It's one I haven't heard before though, so I'll give you a little credit for originality, even though it's sounding increasingly desperate.
I initially made a reasonable statement that the box is only part of the equation. Games being ultimately King. To which your carefully worded bait was some weak trap of PS exclusives not mattering because of sales charts in a cherry picked year (in an effort to downplay one of Sony's strongest selling points and get a response out of me). Don't poke the bear if you don't want it to entertain the bait. It's not fun when you cry foul after I run circles on the nonsense.
Sony has had the better product mix relatively to the competition - the exclusives adult gamers want, the best third party support, the biggest library of current gen games, the value proposition, the services, VR etc..... what have you...as a whole the PS4 has it all. The PS5 is poised to follow that. The competition has barely made any changes to their approach - except they think they can launch without big exclusive games for at least a full year or so. Thus it's reasonable to bring Einstein back from the dead "Insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results".
Your bring up price and power and I correctly pointed out that in this gen neither a lower price offering nor having the power crown has helped Xbox retake sales lead or even prevent a freefall in sales. If you're talking absoultes then sure there are some consumers that will buy Xbox Series X for power alone, or the Series S for price alone but that is not all that factors into the decisions of every single consumer out there. Otherwise the elusive Xbox comeback would have happened already - at very least we would have seen signs of positive reaction in sales strength and consistency.
If that box doesn't sell well it's fair to assume third party will eventually start dropping support. It's easy to do ports when hardware is of equivalent power to the market leader (and an install base exist to justify it, even if small). It's another thing entirely to downscale from 10 TF's to a 4 TF machine with a small base. Moreover I don't think I've ever made that statement without a disclaimer somewhere in the post that alludes to install base or market leadership dynamics (aka hardware sales).
So unless you can quote me where I said such without the proper context you're simply full of shit (and my post history is open so dig away).
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MrFunSocks
Banned
Lol. Just lol.I guess the debate you're making here is not whether devs have no choice (they do), it's whether once they've made the choice to make a game for Xbox; going through the process and making sure the game (code) works on both the Series S and Series X isn't as hard due to commonality of hardware and architecture. That's is #1, far from the absolute claim and #2, still subject to devs. Unless I'm wrong the SDK for Series X will not magically make sure a game with a 10-12 TF target somehow magically downscales properly in frame-rate/resolution/effects to a 4 TF machine without dev input. For me to believe that, I need the receipts I asked. A totally different argument is for devs to initially target 4 TF, and then upscale. Maybe you're suggesting the SDK is identical for both boxes and thus all games are made with the baseline 4 TF console in mind - with Series X just being a tickbox machine brute forcing marginal improvements. I can only imagine in that scenario how underutilized that system will be (PC like). At any rate, in the absolute term, devs have choice, and in the muddied scenario we need receipts for either claim (yours or mine). Maybe
"targeting 4TF". No devs target graphical teraflops of power. They target architecture. The base architecture is the CPU - same on all 3 consoles, the GPU architecture - same on all 3 consoles, the storage - SSD on all 3 consoles, the RAM - same on the big boys, reduced due to not needing 4K on the SS. GPU power just lets you scale what the game looks like. They didn't choose 4TF for no reason - it's 1/3 the GPU power of the XSX, but it will be running the same games at 1/4 of the resolution with 1/4 sized assets. Everything else is the same.
Go and do some reading about the dev kits for the Series X and S. They're the same thing! They just have performance profiles for each of them. No one will be developing for a "4TF target" because that doesn't make any sense.
Neo_game
Member
I agree with you but that is what it is. Unreal 5 demo was showing on PS5 using some clever resolution scaling technique at 1440P. This is what we need, native 4K is too demanding other than racing, sports or fighting games. May be in some years there can be a market for Pro models. Let's hope the Xbox S fail's for good.
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Knitted Knight
Banned
You said Devs had no choice but to support Xbox Series S and that was the argument.
In the absolute it's still a Yes for choice (if only for the mere fact of there being a choice of choosing to ignore the console family altogether - for a variety of reasons). In the picture you're building that supports your point I asked for receipts, and speculated on what you may be suggesting in the absence of clarity in your argument. You tell me to go read on Xbox Series S, X SDK's. Clearly I don't have that info - I'm no dev, otherwise I would have made an statement in absolute about it. But neither are you.
I'm more inclined to believe that even under your crafted picture of the situation there is choice, and developing for 2 distinct hardware, despite hardware commonalities requires some level of work for each considering the gap in power (which is not insignificant either). It's my belief that it's not as automatic as you wish to suggest. But since you're well informed on the matter and since you've clearly read on Xbox Series S/X SDK's you can source your info where it explicitly states that devs have no choice and can't forgo the lesser of the two sku's because the process is, as you clearly suggest, almost automatic magic. Since when have games being developed without knowing the limits of the hardware in question and working around those constraints?
Now if you wish to argue that it would be unwise to forgo development work for the Series S, considering the ease of development etc, after deciding to make the game for Series X... that's reasonable........ or that Microsoft mandates support either way it's spun (not much choice there).
You simply can't sidestep by attempting to ridicule a different way of saying Series S (targeting 4 TF), but you know what was meant by it very well. Let me know when I can get more than your word on it. Ohh and marketing material, poorly sourced articles etc... that won't do. Much rather prefer a third party dev actually lay it out here - clear the air of misconceptions. But NDA is a bitch, which begs the question.... how can you talk in absolute about it without there been caveats, half truths etc all over the argument itself?
In the absolute it's still a Yes for choice (if only for the mere fact of there being a choice of choosing to ignore the console family altogether - for a variety of reasons). In the picture you're building that supports your point I asked for receipts, and speculated on what you may be suggesting in the absence of clarity in your argument. You tell me to go read on Xbox Series S, X SDK's. Clearly I don't have that info - I'm no dev, otherwise I would have made an statement in absolute about it. But neither are you.
I'm more inclined to believe that even under your crafted picture of the situation there is choice, and developing for 2 distinct hardware, despite hardware commonalities requires some level of work for each considering the gap in power (which is not insignificant either). It's my belief that it's not as automatic as you wish to suggest. But since you're well informed on the matter and since you've clearly read on Xbox Series S/X SDK's you can source your info where it explicitly states that devs have no choice and can't forgo the lesser of the two sku's because the process is, as you clearly suggest, almost automatic magic. Since when have games being developed without knowing the limits of the hardware in question and working around those constraints?
Now if you wish to argue that it would be unwise to forgo development work for the Series S, considering the ease of development etc, after deciding to make the game for Series X... that's reasonable........ or that Microsoft mandates support either way it's spun (not much choice there).
You simply can't sidestep by attempting to ridicule a different way of saying Series S (targeting 4 TF), but you know what was meant by it very well. Let me know when I can get more than your word on it. Ohh and marketing material, poorly sourced articles etc... that won't do. Much rather prefer a third party dev actually lay it out here - clear the air of misconceptions. But NDA is a bitch, which begs the question.... how can you talk in absolute about it without there been caveats, half truths etc all over the argument itself?
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itsjustJEFF
Member
I've always thought their next gen plan was to get casual/mobile gamers onto GamePass. Get them to sub and they'll likely stay on, even if they don't use the service. Millions of people pay for subs that they barely use, they forget about it and just keep paying. You know how easy it is to not see a $10 auto-payment month after monty? Do you know how enticing the casual/mobile market is? They want a piece of that audience. If they could, they would likely drop the hardcore demographic, but they know that they still can't. Currently the hardcore demographic is still useful in evangelizing the Xbox brand.
Edit: Playstation would also love to capture a piece of that market! You better believe they'll try. But, currently a lot of Playstation's exclusive are aimed at hardcore gamers.
Edit: Playstation would also love to capture a piece of that market! You better believe they'll try. But, currently a lot of Playstation's exclusive are aimed at hardcore gamers.
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DavidGzz
Member
But that was going against the equally cheap PS4. Now you have a console that can play CoD, an updated Fortnite, Minecraft with Ray-tracing, Resident Evil 8 etc, for maybe $200 less. Not the same scenario. Btw, those are the games the vast majority want. XGS games and Game Pass are bonus.
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Knitted Knight
Banned
That's the plan. But they depend on a box to push it and have walled gardens all around them. Can't sell the box, can't get the potential sub. On the PC side, it's the Steam/Epic firewall. Consumers rather buy Grounded on Steam than get it on Gamepass... rational? from a value aspect? No. But that's the nature of their problem.
As for PS that's why PS Now exist and why they bought Gakai and OnLive way back etc... they've been trying to get it going but consumers don't bite aggressively. They probably have a wealth of internal statistics on it throughout the years that we probably will never see regarding consumer behavior. And Sony clearly doesn't want to subsidize much of it if they can help it. MS is throwing the kitchen sink at Gamepass and focusing almost all of its resources on this strategy at the expense of the traditional gaming push. That's hurting them, with, guess who? The traditional gamer that buys the box (for the potential sub).
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itsjustJEFF
Member
I definitely agree with you on that. They tried with Gaikai, i just don't think the tech or the "gamers" were ready. They refocused on the traditional gamer again. The thing about the casual/mobile audience is do they even want these experiences? Who knows, but it's so enticing that they're willing to make the gamble. They just have to be careful about burning the traditional gamers, like you said. Don't burn those bridges.
Neo_game
Member
Are you suggesting games for the S will have less storage than the game on X or PS5 ? Moreover some posted some time back that the dev said with the SSD and streaming tech repeated textures will not a be a problem for next gen and would save space as well.
Just a tip, you don’t win an argument simply by claiming that you did, no matter how flagrant the self-praise is in your responses.
Your initial post tried to suggest that MS could lose ‘millions’ of their hardcore base to Sony. Clearly not on price or power, so based on what? “Ultimately” you argued ”the games are king”.
I merely pointed out that nearly all games are third-party. It’s true. The best selling and most popular games are third party. Also true. According to the last full year of figures, only ONE Sony exclusive was in the all-platform top 20 and only ONE Sony exclusive was in the PS4 top 10.
Cherry-picked? I’m afraid not. Those are the NPD figures from the last full-year, 2019. Do they upset your narrative?
That’s a shame.
MS is ‘insane’ for doing the same thing again and again? A couple of things; no manufacturer has ever bookended a new generation with both the most powerful and the most affordable hardware in separate offerings. ‘Gamepass’, ‘All Access’, ‘XCloud’. All new.
Also, that quote is not from Einstein, Einstein.
Your contention that Series S won’t get third-party support is utterly baseless, your ‘disclaimers’ are just weasel-words. You’re putting the idea out there without any facts to back it up and trying to create Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about future support. Pure, classic, 100% rolled-gold FUD.
MS will mandate Series S/X support, there will be versions for both through the entire generation. The Series S has the same architecture, the same speed SSD, the same CPU. The versions will be identical bar resolution and frame rate.
Besides, developers will already be scaling down from the Series X to the PS5, so it’s probably not that big a deal.
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Knitted Knight
Banned
They already lost 35-40 million. It's not even a question of fact here... millions of defections occurred over the previous gen. So the question is...... are you going to argue all of those were casuals? Are you going to argue all of those defections were the result of Don Matrick's initial fuck up? Did all those 35-40 million defections occurred all on the first two years (Xbox 360 honeymoon phase) or more like mid-gen when the PS4 took off with exclusive banger after banger? Please.....
The kicker.... we can clearly see where those millions of defections went - almost a straight line crossover.....overwhelming majority to PS4's fat 110 million +. Of Sony's projected 150 million console users for PS5 where do you think the majority of the 30+ million on top of the 110 already on PS4 will come from? Let me give you a hint.......... Xbox's ever shrinking 35-45 million pie.
The Xbox One family had the price, had the power, had the sweet talking B.Stter aka the savior aka Philochio Spencer but it couldn't turn it around. Hec they've had homecooking too....a bootlicking press that barely touches them fuck up after fuck up....very understanding of Miscrosoft's strategies as if they were MS shareholders.... rooting for the underdog. Hec the press pushes Gamepass as if it were their own. How many breaks?
So what is/was it that was missing? What has been the central issue for the brand for years?
Quality content and exclusives that set it apart from PlayStation.
Xbox tried the perception management narrative (never apologized), the price narrative, ultimately the power narrative and nothing......what's left? How can this be argued to be something else? Isn't it that obvious?
Defections will only continue. You've seen the hugely lopsided polls, you know the chatter on social media etc? The hec are you trying to argue? We have insiders and influencers outing themselves as shills pushing lies about PS because the scales are getting out of control.... you think shit ain't looking bad after that shitshow July event? And now this console leaks without a proper event... shit goes from bad to worse...
Shit is so bad gamers had a collective funeral reception for Xbox's flagship, Xbox's baby, the holiday savior....Halo Infinite. Not even Xbox's biggest detractors could have dreamed of that one. The pinnacle of incompetence and ineptitude.
How can you fuck up the exclusive games so bad when in the business of making a games console? After 6 years of wait you think the Xbox hardcore are not tired of the BS and lies.... you think they are all here like the few laggards still fighting the good fight? Nah.... they already know where their money will go next-gen.
They're the most popular that's true. The more platforms, the wider the audience - it's not really rocket science.
How does that in any way, shape or form degrade the impact or importance of exclusives games that differentiate Y product from X product? Basic marketing here...
There is no narrative to upset here... you just think you have a trump card of the old tired "only third parties matter" narrative. Yet the console most dependent on third parties for its success is the lowest selling this generation? Ohh geeee.... work on that one.
The kitchen sink approach... throw everything at the wall and see what sticks. I already sent Nadella my resume... I can do the same as Phil and demand less than a third of his paycheck.
It actually shows the lack of ideas aka beaten down to a pulp. Everything bunched together without paying particular attention at excellence and quality. The good thing about the kitchen sink approach is that it's low effort, and probabilities are good that at least something will stick..... has to stick.... right? right? The alternative is to live in an alternate universe where decisions and time could be rolled back or simply, shutting/selling/spinning off the Xbox division for good.
Not to mention, PS Now exist (Gamepass, XCloud hybrid), Stadia exists, Gamefly exists... and before that Gakai, OnLive etc... Just cause Microsoft is doing it doesn't mean its new or fresh. They're just devoting a lot of their marketing resources and industry clout to push it - unlike other players. A bet...
Weasel words - ok? Maybe it's just Nintendo being living proof for a long timeeeeeeeeee now. Decade + in fact. But you're free to try to characterize it as you wish.
At least you're not disputing that I don't provide that important context when I say those words which is much needed clarification. That is not for you per say to believe but others reading- that's clarified so we good on that. I still maintain the argument. Third parties will eventually drop support for Series S if that console sells like shit. In this scenario not only is the gap in sales huge but the power between the market leader - 10 TF vs. 4 TF will also be huge. To think otherwise about MS strong-arming devs is to overestimate Microsoft's power in the industry. I can see EA going till the end with MS (partners in crime) but others? Good luck. In the probabilities scale there is always a chance for your opinion to play out. To me it just appears unlikely....
From mandating to "no choice" (due to whatever it's that
MrFunSocks
is trying to suggest) is a long way. If mandated sure, which only raises the likelihood of PlayStation getting more exclusives by default. If the disparity in the total number of current gen games released for each platform (PS4/Pro vs. Xbox One/X) is anything to go by...... Boy. Add an even worse scenario and we're indeed looking at PS2 days.
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DeaDPo0L84
Member
This doesn't even make sense, so someone's interest in a exclusive game is strictly tied to sales? If the next Mario game sold 10 million copies yet the next God of War only sold a 1/3 of that I'm still playing GoW multiple times while never touching Mario.
This isn't talking shit on Nintendo, its just the point you're attempting to make is 100% senseless.
MrFunSocks
Banned
If you buy your game digitally then yes, if you download it on an S it will likely be smaller in size.
Komatsu
Member
A $299 console in a depressed market in what will be an otherwise abysmal holiday season due to the ongoing pandemic and accompanying recession is a very attractive proposition and will most likely sell well among under-14s, family consumers and the sports/CoD crowd.
Please. Every single major third party publisher (Take Two, Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, EA,etc.) will release their major titles on every single platform, including the Xbox. The overwhelming majority of games consumed outside of Asia are all published by the majors and every single of them will be available on the Xbox Series S. The major Japanese publishers (Capcom, Bandai Namco, etc.) will also very likely release their AAAs on Microsoft platforms as well, as they have done with every single platform Microsoft released since 2001. Xbox players will get their Resident Evils, their Watch Dogs, their Assassins Creeds, their Witchers, their Dragon Ball and Sword Art Online anime tie-ins, their FIFAs, Maddens, Call of Duties.
Please. Every single major third party publisher (Take Two, Activision-Blizzard, Ubisoft, EA,etc.) will release their major titles on every single platform, including the Xbox. The overwhelming majority of games consumed outside of Asia are all published by the majors and every single of them will be available on the Xbox Series S. The major Japanese publishers (Capcom, Bandai Namco, etc.) will also very likely release their AAAs on Microsoft platforms as well, as they have done with every single platform Microsoft released since 2001. Xbox players will get their Resident Evils, their Watch Dogs, their Assassins Creeds, their Witchers, their Dragon Ball and Sword Art Online anime tie-ins, their FIFAs, Maddens, Call of Duties.
Knitted Knight
Banned
Not on Nintendo Switch........Technicalities and generalizations.
The scenario discussed was very specific. Under a low sales regime for the Series S, third party support will more than likely (to me) be severed. A lot of people are working under the assumption that said box will sell well and somehow either keep pace with Xbox One numbers or surpass it (as a family) and thus from there it's safe to assume everything stays the same as for the past 2 gens. That's a lot of ifs and in my opinion, failing to realize where the wind is blowing when it comes to the Xbox brand (the mood on the streets if you will). But maybe I'm wrong on that and somehow a miracle happens where the Series S/X is a sales success (beyond the first year). But lets say just on the off chance that the Series S doesn't do well past its first year..... what are we looking at?
That is a couple of nice caveats you have there. Forgetting the specific scenario discussed; that still wouldn't change the fact that Xbox misses on a lot of smaller Japanesse games and as such is a non-factor and non competitor in Asian markets.
Only feathers in Sony's cap to buttress their hold there. Not to mention the millions of Western gamers that consume Japanesse developed content with insane splits favoring PlayStation. What could possible tilt that gamer to the Xbox platform? The bigger the splits, the worse it will get so goes the logic. Wasn't even until recently that MS had a Yakuza game on its platform... and probably paid for it - not voluntary. If those "little" games weren't meaningful, just for variety alone, I don't think those games would have deserved the spot MS gave them at the July event. These games matter - perhaps not to a large western audience but the aggregate effect does matter. Every single sale matters (or should).
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One of my pet hates is people taking part of a reply out of context in order to make some tangential point.
I was replying to a comment that suggested that people wouldn't really be swayed by a cheap Series S, largely because of exclusive Sony games.
I pointed out that the biggest selling and most popular games are third-party (even on the PS4) and, that Nintendo actually had far more exclusive games in the top 20 last year than Playstation did.
Are you jumping to Nintendo as a result? No, I imagine not.
I think the importance of exclusive games is overstated on Sony and MS consoles. Series S will do just fine at that price.
TheWanderingOgre
Member
Commercially speaking? Yeah, I can see that being the case.
Smart move, all around.
If they dont have the first party games to rival Sonys, they now have the lowest price barrier.
In any economy, but even more so in this COVID-19 economy? It will claim market share, for sure.
When you dont have a (naughty?) dog, you hunt with a cat.
Smart move, all around.
If they dont have the first party games to rival Sonys, they now have the lowest price barrier.
In any economy, but even more so in this COVID-19 economy? It will claim market share, for sure.
When you dont have a (naughty?) dog, you hunt with a cat.
GeorgPrime
Banned
Even i would buy a cheap system like this just to get the game pass running.
Hezekiah
Banned
Wouldn't it make more sense to look at the best selling PlayStation games - there are 2 inside the top 10.I
Remember, only one Sony exclusive made the top twenty in 2019 (NPD).
NPD: The 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the U.S.
it's time to run down the 20 best-selling games of 2019 in the United States, according to industry-tracking firm The NPD Group.
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KungFucius
King Snowflake
I want to smash my screen with my keyboard when I read all this ignorant crap about a cheaper, scaled down version of the same fucking hardware designed to run games at 1080p holding back the generation. Total nonsense. You "holding back" believers have no technical understanding of designs. It has the same CPU and scales back on the GPU and expensive design items that enable higher GPU performance and the disk drive. The design trades cost for graphical performance and the games can easily adjust to that trade off by scaling resolution and gfx effects in the games only. If you look at the GPU numbers, people overwhelmingly buy the low-mid end GPUs and play games at lower settings. Why shouldn't console owners have the same choice? If I had nephews instead of nieces I would get them one for X-mas. I am curious to see how the prices play out. I can see MS reducing the price of the XsS but not doing so for the XsX.
Xbox is a platform and the real next gen Xbox is the 30XX series
If Sony put out a similarly gimped system for $200 less, I might buy that over the main system because I don't really need the best graphics when I am just paying for access to their exclusives. I have a launch PS4 and that is fine for the same purpose. It really would depend how close the games were on the high end to PC games. The disc drive does allow saving by purchasing used games which is fine since I just want to play the big titles when I have time and nothing more interesting in my PC and Switch backlog.
Xbox is a platform and the real next gen Xbox is the 30XX series
If Sony put out a similarly gimped system for $200 less, I might buy that over the main system because I don't really need the best graphics when I am just paying for access to their exclusives. I have a launch PS4 and that is fine for the same purpose. It really would depend how close the games were on the high end to PC games. The disc drive does allow saving by purchasing used games which is fine since I just want to play the big titles when I have time and nothing more interesting in my PC and Switch backlog.