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[Jigsaah]

"If you don't have elasticity on the price-point, but you have huge volatility on the cost line, the model becomes more difficult. I think this generation is going to see those two imperatives collide."

Enter microtransactions
Enter GaaS
Enter subscription services
Enter questionably faulty peripherals

If 10 million people buy a game within the first couple of months of a release at full price, that 600 million dollars in revenue right there.

I think what not sustainable, isn't so much AAA games...as much as it is the exclusivity of said AAA games. Devs need more people to be able to get their hands on the games they make, period.

 

[rofif]

It's not as hard earning cash like fortnite games... But we got here almost entirely on good, single player games. And they release some of the best. Shame to see em go

 

[Bryank75]

They need to stop putting games on sale so much, keep the really premier games like GOW, Horizon etc high like Nintendo keep Zelda at 60 for as long as possible.

 

[SleepDoctor]

Wasn't it him who said something along the lines of "fewer releases but bigger games" when referring to ps 1st party games awhile before leaving?

Either way I disagree. There's obviously a big market for AAA games. Just look at some of the numbers from recent titles like Spiderman or tlou2 which they say did well on preorders.

 

[theclaw135]

Each generation AAA development costs increase, while game prices decrease relative to inflation. We're paying less than ever for substantially more content and production values than was the norm in the 8bit or 16bit era.

They need to stop putting games on sale so much, keep the really premier games like GOW, Horizon etc high like Nintendo keep Zelda at 60 for as long as possible.

Annoying as that may be, it's economics 101. Games that are actually selling don't need price cuts.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

It's interesting how people who clearly prefer larger AAA single player games just go "Shawn Layden is wrong. I am right. Look at X game that did well."

Bitch! Shawn Layden rose to one of the highest positions within Playstation. He had access to years upon years of vital information, surrounded by teams of highly competent and knowledgeable people, tasked with steering the brand into the future.

This is not high level thinking. Human preferences are absolutely dominating rational thought right now...in so many different areas of society.

 

[Guilty_AI]

They need to stop putting games on sale so much, keep the really premier games like GOW, Horizon etc high like Nintendo keep Zelda at 60 for as long as possible.

Factorio actually does this. They set a pricetag of $30 and explicitly declared it'll never go on sale.

 

[Bryank75]

Each generation AAA development costs increase, while game prices decrease relative to inflation. We're paying less than ever for substantially more content and production values than was the norm in the 8bit or 16bit era.



Annoying as that may be, it's economics 101. Games that are actually selling don't need price cuts.

Of course...the law of supply and demand, I studied economics and worked in a quant section but there needs to be an element of aspiration and value also. You can't devalue everything within weeks.

 

[BusierDonkey]

This is not what he was saying last year.

Sony's Shawn Layden wants fewer, bigger PlayStation games

Video game makers are struggling to adapt to the internet era. With the PS5 on the horizon, Sony's video game boss has a plan.

www.cnet.com

Anthony Hopkins said the Transformers movie he starred in had a great script. It didn't, but they were giving him a lot of money to say so.

Of course Layden towed the company line when he was representing them. Now that he's not the face of Sony at events he 's towing his own line.

 

[Jubenhimer]

Of course Layden towed the company line when he was representing them. Now that he's not the face of Sony at events he 's towing his own line.

I do think "fewer but bigger" was his original plan when he was still at Sony. But now that he's gone, that's probably changed. Hermen Hulst likely has a different plan in mind.

 

[Belmonte]

Just a thought: perhaps it is a good idea to have more Demon Souls-like exclusives in their portfolios.

What I mean is, an exclusive which doesn't have the budget of a heavy hitter like GOW, but at the same time, a must have for a chunk of their audience.

Nintendo does this all the time with many franchises. Donkey Kong is not popular with all their fanbase, mostly because high difficulty, but for those who likes it, it is absolutely must have. Not everyone likes Metroid, but for those who like, a "4" in the screen is enough to win an E3.

 

[Bryank75]

Anthony Hopkins said the Transformers movie he starred in had a great script. It didn't, but they were giving him a lot of money to say so.

Of course Layden towed the company line when he was representing them. Now that he's not the face of Sony at events he 's towing his own line.

He could have taken a cheque from anyone to say that.... especially since it contradicts how much SIE makes, it's hugely successful.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Spiderman
Horizon
The Last of Us
Uncharted
God of War

Those are the franchises that can afford to go bigger next gen without much worry.

Ghost of Tsushima, Days Gone, and lesser franchises made by less proven developers aren't as easily able to go bigger on PS5.

Shawn Layden isn't contradicting himself at all. People are just ignoring nuance for some reason.

 

[Elder Legend]

AAA and AAAA games are not going anywhere. Microsoft is putting all of their might into their 1st party studios. They are here to stay. Halo Infinite and TLOU2 are perfect examples of that.

Halo Infinite being the most expensive game in existence as of today and I am pretty positive Sony knows that AAA games for them is what makes PlayStation 5 a reason to invest. Look at how TLOU 2 is performing and the reception of Horzion Forbidden West.

Shawn is right, they are very risky these days and super pricey but only certain publishers can afford that. That's obviously MS, Nintnedo and Sony. As for 3rd party AAA I dont think Capcom will now stop making resident evil games. I think new AAA ips is really the scariest thing.

 

[Punished Miku]

Well I never asked for a lot of this. I think Switch games still look great. I'm also fine with my regular PS4 at the moment, and barely even really need next gen.

Most of the biggest games that push forward into hyper-realistic visuals and limited advancements in gameplay I haven't even bought. I'm still fine with games with a focus on gameplay and art style.

They're really just doing it to themselves by choice.

 

[Insane Metal]

That's why he's not the boss anymore

 

[DrScissorsMD]

I think people saying he’s wrong cause it’s working for Sony are missing the point; it’s working now. It’s not sustainable in the sense of the long term. He’s not saying Sony won’t keep making great triple As, he’s just saying the amount of time it takes to make a full fledged triple A means you cannot exclusively and consistently pump out nothing but triple A. You need some smaller stuff. Call it filler if you want but it’s still needed. Sometimes you wanna watch a masterpiece and sometimes you want a mindless popcorn flick.

 

[Keihart]

I think people saying he’s wrong cause it’s working for Sony are missing the point; it’s working now. It’s not sustainable in the sense of the long term. He’s not saying Sony won’t keep making great triple As, he’s just saying the amount of time it takes to make a full fledged triple A means you cannot exclusively and consistently pump out nothing but triple A. You need some smaller stuff. Call it filler if you want but it’s still needed. Sometimes you wanna watch a masterpiece and sometimes you want a mindless popcorn flick.

This is why i think Insomniac was such a brilliant move, they have been developing more than one game at the time for a while, so they can pump something like Ratchet out and still do the Spiderman thing on the side.

 

[HoodWinked]

He's an idiot. He isn't even making the more sound arguments only that the retail price for a game is expected to stay at $60 and making the smooth brain how can games stay $60 when budgets are increasing?

I don't understand why he's making the argument as if he's a third party publisher not the perspective of the platform holder.

For him to throw out sustainability shows his incompetence as the generic exec he has always been. You see it all the time these execs can be dropped into any business and they will say essentially the same thing.

 

[Rat Rage]

Wow, it's the first time I agree with Layden.

He's right!

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Their 1st party output this gen must have been expensive.

I would think PS3 would have been more expensive. They released more first party games on PS3 and it was a lot more difficult to work on so probably costly as well. You’d have to guess they made way less money on hardware and third party software royalties as well, plus a boatload more from PS+ this gen.

As much money as they are making, I was very disappointed in the amount of games that came from them. It at least seems from memory that last gen had so much more.

 

[GetemMa]

It's sustainable if you charge more.

Also, digital market places should be netting substantially bigger margins than retail sales so the shift from retail to digital should be giving them better margins than they've ever experienced.

I think Shawn is saying, "we can't make Spiderman 2 this big 35 hour spectacular and still sell it for $60"

Games just need to cost more. $80 might be the new standard but at that point I don't want to see $129 ultimate editions that include all this content they chose to cut from the base game.

Or they will continue with XP boosters, online modes with MXT, and season passes and just keep whale hunting. I bet that's what they do.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

He also says he'd like to see 12-15 hour AAA games return.

Sony's SP narratives would be 12-15 hours if you cut out most of the cut scenes. You'd save money by not needing to hire programmers and actors to do tons of cinema clips and dialogue recordings.

Streamer QXC beat LoU 2 in 16.5 hours and no doubt there must have been hours of cut scenes. In the final 90 minutes I watched, there was about 30-40 minutes of cut scenes alone. He even got killed a bunch of times needing to re-do parts and the whole stream still ended at less than 17 hours.

Just imagine how many more cinematic clips there were in the first 15 hours I missed.

 

[Kumomeme]

I also said they should buy that dev who made Temtem.....that would be cheap to develop and really advance that genre. Pokemon has really stagnated.

or they could try 'borrow' monolith team after they done with botw2

 

[Atrus]

Plenty of room of non-blockbusters.

Darkest Dungeon was a highly successful smaller game. That Game Company games are only a few hours long and highly praised and I doubt SotC was highly funded.

Blockbuster games help sell platforms and use money to guarantee a certain level of buy in. Highly risky for a new ip and the payoff is in ensuring a franchise, which helps create secondary opportunities (spinoffs, side stories, movies, toys, etc.)

Most of the costs for video games are upfront investments in the technology each generation but the sequels should increase the profitability margins because you aren’t starting from scratch.

This is more a management issue rather than a “games don’t cost enough” one.

If you produce a quality name brand like Uncharted or The Last of Us, then don’t fuck up the movie or tv show the brands bought you. That’s how you make a lot of money.

 

[PresetError]

I'm all in for 10-15h AAA games. More substance, less fat.

 

[Dolomite]

They need to stop putting games on sale so much, keep the really premier games like GOW, Horizon etc high like Nintendo keep Zelda at 60 for as long as possible.

Got some bad news for you when XSX launches with AAA Titles on gamepass. But I hear what you mean, price = perceived value

 

[Coney]

What noteworthy 12-15 hour single player games have Microsoft released on gamepass?

Witcher 3, Read Dead Redemption 2, the Yakuza games,. Ori and the Will of the Wisps, etc...

 

[Dolomite]

What noteworthy 12-15 hour single player games have Microsoft released on gamepass?

GTA, Gears, Yakuza, Red Dead, the Witcher, Hellblade...do you use actually your game Gamepass bro?

 

[Iced Arcade]

Personally I started buying less games and started taking less chances on new IPs when games took a big price hike a couple years into last gen and mainly only bought well known games when they launched. I know game development costs but people will try more unknowns if the price is right.

It's working pretty well.... the difference is obvious. When Insomniac made a game for Xbox nobody bought it, when they made one for PlayStation, it broke records. Xbox need gamespass because their customers don't buy games...

Comparing a weird new unknown game on a console launch to a game that is probably in the top 20 franchises of the world. This has to be a parody acct right?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

 

[Stiflers Mom]

It's working pretty well.... the difference is obvious. When Insomniac made a game for Xbox nobody bought it, when they made one for PlayStation, it broke records. Xbox need gamespass because their customers don't buy games...

Would PS people have been buying Sunset Overdrive, though?

 

[Tesseract]

i think it's the opposite

tools are easier and better than ever, i'm pushing the edge in various engines without a team

 

[StreetsofBeige]

Comparing a weird new unknown game on a console launch to a game that is probably in the top 20 franchises of the world. This has to be a parody acct right?

If you look at their game history, Insomniac has made a bunch of trash games that get poor reviews and sell lousy..... Fuse, Song of the Deep, various mobile/VR games.

When given big partnership budgets with Sony, they churn out good games. When they go it alone or make their own game, it's usually junk.

 

[PlayerPurple]

It's been $59.99 since I started in this business, but the cost of [making] games has gone up ten times.

If you don't have elasticity on the price-point, but you have huge volatility on the [production] cost line, the model becomes more difficult. I think this generation is going to see those two imperatives collide."

So happy to hear another industry insider acknowledge this.

The AAA gaming business model is ridiculously broken right now, and the biggest reason why is that consumers have a stubborn attachment to the same $60 price tag introduced 15 years ago (officially, anyway), despite games back then costing $X million to make compared to the $XX million they do now.

It's incredibly frustrating to see an "enthusiast" gamer who'll complain about all the "pitfalls" of AAA gaming (lootboxes, microtransactions, lack of innovation, games becoming casual friendly, focus on graphics/story over gameplay), but then stick their nose up at the idea of maybe paying more money to get a better product.

 

[GHG]

GTA, Gears, Yakuza, Red Dead, the Witcher, Hellblade...do you use actually your game Gamepass bro?

Do you actually read the posts you reply to bro?

Witcher 3, Read Dead Redemption 2, the Yakuza games,. Ori and the Will of the Wisps, etc...

Only Ori potentially qualifies if you decide to rush through it on an easier difficulty.

 

[StreetsofBeige]

So happy to hear another industry insider acknowledge this.

The AAA gaming business model is ridiculously broken right now, and the biggest reason why is that consumers have a stubborn attachment to the same $60 price tag introduced 15 years ago (officially, anyway), despite games back then costing $X million to make compared to the $XX million they do now.

It's incredibly frustrating to see an "enthusiast" gamer who'll complain about all the "pitfalls" of AAA gaming (lootboxes, microtransactions, lack of innovation, games becoming casual friendly, focus on graphics/story over gameplay), but then stick their nose up at the idea of maybe paying more money to get a better product.

The counter to this (and Layden's statement) is that even though the cost to make a game has gone up, sales have skyrocketed.

Also, you got tons of digital sales (increasing every year) which means that $60 first party is 100% revenue, while before there was cost of packaging a disc and selling it to EB or Best buy for $40-45, which they sell for $60.

And for third party games, every digital sale is a 30% cut instead of $4 (whatever it is) for a disc royalty fee. So for every online third party game sold, that's $18 for Sony, MS or Nintendo.

So add it up and there's more game sales margin. And add to it the billions of DLC, microtrans, online fees and other stuff that adds to the coffers.

It's outdated just to look costs without looking at the overall sales and profit umbrella.

 

[Gravemind]

What noteworthy 12-15 hour single player games have Microsoft released on gamepass?

Alien: Isolation, to name one. Only because I'm playing it right now.

 

[Shmunter]

What $60? Deluxe Pre-order Edition. Yellow Gold Edition, Super Collection Edition, Premium Collection Edition. Choose your tier, live life confused.

 

[GHG]

Alien: Isolation, to name one. Only because I'm playing it right now.

For clarity, I'm talking about them as a publisher. If we are to include all games that are available on the service then it's really not something that is an exclusive trait of one subscription service, all of those games existed (and will exist) irrespective of subscription services.

I'd love for the gaming subscription services to enable more AAA 12-15 hours but I'm not seeing it to be honest.

 

[Dontero]

Unsustainable doesn't mean anything. People like Shawn do not make those choices. It is people who do them when they buy games.

 

[Dolomite]

Do you actually read the posts you reply to bro?



Only Ori potentially qualifies if you decide to rush through it on an easier difficulty.

You asked which Single player games (12-15hrs) are on gamepass. I shared 6 examples. Do you practice reading comprehension bro?

 

[GHG]

You asked which Single player games (12-15hrs) are on gamepass. I shared 6 examples. Do you practice reading comprehension bro?

Are you joking?

Even if we ignore the fact that I mentioned Microsoft specifically how about you put those games into the following website:

HowLongToBeat.com | Game Lengths, Backlogs and more!

How long are your favorite video games? HowLongToBeat has the answer. Create a backlog, submit your game times and compete with your friends!

howlongtobeat.com

 

[Dolomite]

Are you joking?

Even if we ignore the fact that I mentioned Microsoft specifically how about you put those games into the following website:

HowLongToBeat.com | Game Lengths, Backlogs and more!

How long are your favorite video games? HowLongToBeat has the answer. Create a backlog, submit your game times and compete with your friends!

howlongtobeat.com

you said gamepass, not in-house studios. And if you'd played...any of those games that have been out for yrs now, you'd know they've got extensive campaigns/ single player stories. I'm so lost at what you're confused about. You want shorter games? Longer?

 

[Roni]

The future for gaming is movie-length sized games of extremely high quality.

Graphics will continue to sell, devs will figure out how to make the storytelling shorter and more accessible to casual players and the shorter length will help with costs a bunch.

 

[GHG]

you said gamepass, not in-house studios. And if you'd played...any of those games that have been out for yrs now, you'd know they've got extensive campaigns/ single player stories. I'm so lost at what you're confused about. You want shorter games? Longer?

Extensive campaigns/single player stories are the exact problem this thread is referencing.

The suggested/desired optimal time span is referenced both throughout the thread and in the post of mine you originally quoted.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

What noteworthy 12-15 hour single player games have Microsoft released on gamepass?

Ori.

Besides this is basically what Matt Booty said about the plans of Xbox Game Studios, right? That not every game is going to be of the size of Halo.

 

[theclaw135]

Extensive campaigns/single player stories are the exact problem this thread is referencing.

The suggested/desired optimal time span is referenced both throughout the thread and in the post of mine you originally quoted.

AAA studios have difficulty recognizing open world games that... won't... end... aren't for everyone.

 

[GHG]

Ori.

Besides this is basically what Matt Booty said about the plans of Xbox Game Studios, right? That not every game is going to be of the size of Halo.

If going forwards we get more games with the length and standard of Ori then I'm all for it. It would represent a positive shift away from what we've typically had in the last few years.

AAA studios have difficulty recognizing open world games that... won't... end... aren't for everyone.

In general I think a great deal of games would benefit from going in this direction. The filler content/areas in a lot of single player games is very apparent. I've never seen an industry more obsessed with how long or large experiences are rather than focusing on maintaining a high level of quality throughout the experience they do offer.

 

[Deleted member 775630]

If going forwards we get more games with the length and standard of Ori then I'm all for it. It would represent a positive shift away from what we've typically had in the last few years.

It's going to be a mix of different type and lengths of games, and hopefully they'll all be able (which they won't) to get to the standard of Ori.