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[NickFire]

This conversation is long, long overdue. In my view it was the effective banning of any actual "conversation" on this specific umbrella topic, by a handful of former mods who even seemed to be at odds with EL's thoughts at times (Anita for instance), that I believe lead to the entire cluster of 2017. Rather than keep things calm by silencing unpopular opinions, it turned the place into a powder keg, and purged all the fire extinguishers before the match was finally lit.

Looking forward to seeing how it plays out. My bet is many people will start to realize there is more grey in this world than black/white.

 

[KevinKeene]

Gamergate is a far-right hate movement organized in 8chan and in various secret IRC channels where they conspire and choose targets to concentrate death threats and other hate messages. These targets were originally somewhat gaming related like Zoe, but it later became a general anti-left movement. From EviLore's experience, it appears he was chosen as a target after posting something negative about the five guys story.

Lots of right-wing propagandists who shill for Trump endlessly, for example Mike Cernovich (he does not care about video games at all) and Milo Yiannopoulos (actually MOCKED gamers before GG), were Gamergaters when it was big. GG is very political and always has been. It's not about getting politics out of games - it's about getting "wrong think" (left wing politics) out of everything.

I hope you are banned for accusing me of a whole bunch of terrible things. Not gonna accept this much condensed ignorance quietly.

 

[Alx]

I wasn't in either group and I felt that i was being included in the criticism at the time. Those articles were an attack on male gamers.

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I find it weird to feel included in a criticism if my profile doesn't match the description. If I read an article about misogyny among gamers, my first reaction would be "must be the other gamers".
Also if I felt that target to be too broad, it would be all the more of a reason to separate myself from the true culprits, to make sure that I'm not associated with them. That would probably avoid the current situation where for the common opinion, gamergaters are "a bunch of sexist losers harassing people on Twitter".

I think 2 more popular examples were these people demanded to change games were Hotline Miami 2 (Which articles which was hidden as preview for the game and only had one message (Change the game) has been removed but the full story can be read here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikka...m-over-controversial-rape-scene/#74f50724b314

Another one would be Castlevania 2.

https://www.usgamer.net/articles/yes-castlevania-lords-of-shadow-2-did-make-me-feel-uncomfortable-

But in the end it was about changing the whole industry in this regard not certain games

Thanks for the examples. In the end those are two cases were the games censored some gory stuff that was controversial to begin with (even according to the marketing department). I'm not sure it's specific to the gamergate environment, such things happen all the time.
Also I don't see the issue with changing the industry if the games don't change. You said yourself that you were ok with diversity as long as it's something new and not changing the existing. Well it doesn't seem like the existing has changed much.

 

[Omegatron]

Gamergate is a far-right hate movement organized in 8chan and in various secret IRC channels where they conspire and choose targets to concentrate death threats and other hate messages. These targets were originally somewhat gaming related like Zoe, but it later became a general anti-left movement. From EviLore's experience, it appears he was chosen as a target after posting something negative about the five guys story.

Lots of right-wing propagandists who shill for Trump endlessly, for example Mike Cernovich (he does not care about video games at all) and Milo Yiannopoulos (actually MOCKED gamers before GG), were Gamergaters when it was big. GG is very political and always has been. It's not about getting politics out of games - it's about getting "wrong think" (left wing politics) out of everything.

I see that you come from a world in which everything is black and white, no gray in between. Reminds me of old Gaf and why I never bothered to join until now.

If you make a statement filled with as much hate as yours is, then the good people of this platform would probably like you to provide less of a bias narrative when it comes to subjects like this.

As someone who was once part of GG, I would like to know one thing.

Can you prove that I'm an evil far-right woman hater?

Because putting everyone under one rug is usually what people like you are telling the far-right people to stop doing, yet you are even better at it than the Nazis are.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

I think there's also an additional problem of labels being used to incorrectly say that a person supports something they don't.

Like, "SJW" was originally a very radical person but its definition has since morphed into "anyone left of Adolf Hitler" with all the far-right use of the term. There are also many types of feminists out there. Most mainstream feminists think that Mad Max: Fury Road is one of the most feminist movies ever and I agree with that view, as the movie contains most of the basic ideas of feminism. Anita Sarkeesian would be a minority with her weird opinion that it is a misogynist movie. All "Feminists" don't think a certain way, but places like Kotaku In Action are trying to tell you they do.

So when I go into Kotaku In Action and sees everyone complain about SJWs all the time, what am I supposed to think of it? What do they see as an SJW? I see myself as an SJW at least in that mad right-wing definition.

 

[LightofRohan]

Gamergate is stuck in the same vacuum words like, "Sjw" and "Alt Right" are stuck in now. A label to give someone in order to invalidate their opinions because they are obviously, "Unfit to have discourse". All these terms are pretty reductive and I believe most truths lie somewhere in the middle, it's unfortunate though that the internet has forced discussion to either extreme. Now is the time for more moderate discussion and rational debate, and while I agree with some of the initial "Gamergate" meanings, the name is tainted at this point that it is most definitely better to be abandoned and form something else.

Kind of like how SJW changed its name to RE.

 

[Dunki]

I find it weird to feel included in a criticism if my profile doesn't match the description. If I read an article about misogyny among gamers, my first reaction would be "must be the other gamers".
Also if I felt that target to be too broad, it would be all the more of a reason to separate myself from the true culprits, to make sure that I'm not associated with them. That would probably avoid the current situation where for the common opinion, gamergaters are "a bunch of sexist losers harassing people on Twitter".



Thanks for the examples. In the end those are two cases were the games censored some gory stuff that was controversial to begin with (even according to the marketing department). I'm not sure it's specific to the gamergate environment, such things happen all the time.
Also I don't see the issue with changing the industry if the games don't change. You said yourself that you were ok with diversity as long as it's something new and not changing the existing. Well it doesn't seem like the existing has changed much.

Since I love japanese dumb stuff I can say it has. Japanese developers already fearing to release their game in the west. Instead they are developing Asia Versions of thei so you can import them if you are interested. And As someone who HATES censorship in any form I feel I am much less trustworthy in these regards always checking games before I buy them if they are censored or not.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

while I agree with some of the initial "Gamergate" meanings, the name is tainted at this point that it is most definitely better to be abandoned and form something else.

"Gamergate" was originally posted by Adam Baldwin, who is not a video game guy. He's a far-right guy. The term should have been tossed away immediately, it was instantly tainted when it was born.

Can you prove that I'm an evil far-right woman hater?

You are a new member here - I can't connect you to posts elsewhere on the Internet.

 

[TheGraykid]

I don't think your reasoning is wrong, just that you can't say it's people from that particular group who were advocating for these changes. All kinds of people were pushing diversity, and companies gave in.


I'm sure those journalists like games, it's just that their ideology to promote social justice through games is not supported by the vast majority of gamers. For one, most gamers just don't care enough to even follow the news or anything like that, and then a lot of the ones who do, simply don't agree with this agenda. A group of journalists calling for changes in games is not a changing of demographics, and their 'bigger voice' doesn't necessarily carry any real weight. We've seen that games that promote social justice don't do very well most of the time.


In the Netherlands, a popular phrase aimed at a specific football club (Ajax) goes: "Hamas, hamas, all jews gonna be gassed" and this is shouted while in the stadium and outside, to supporters and to players. I think that's on a whole 'nother level compared to some idiot shouting nigger in Overwatch, where you can just mute and report them. But hey, maybe that's just me.

I agree with some of that. However, I think it's a misnomer to say that these games are games that promote social justice, with most of the games discussed here, we're simply talking about certain groups being able to even appear in games in a way that isn't a basic stereotype. A lot of games fail, full stop, I haven't really seen a trend that indicates that if you have a diverse cast in your game, then it is sure to fail or on the other side that it's sure to succeed. However, there is definitely an audience for games that don't treat minorities like they don't exist. If anything, what we should learn from other creative mediums, is that there is an unserved population of people interested in this stuff. People want this stuff, that's why we're talking about it right now, this isn't an optical illusion of some kind. Again, people aren't asking for a call of duty subplot that's about sticking it to "white straight cis men", people are simply asking for a culture that doesn't try and pretend they do not exist.

Also, I'm sorry it's like that in the Netherlands. That's not been my experience in the UK. When anything like that happens in the UK it's normally a huge scandal and the FA gets involved.

 

[Alx]

Since I love japanese dumb stuff I can say it has. Japanese developers already fearing to release their game in the west. Instead they are developing Asia Versions of thei so you can import them if you are interested. And As someone who HATES censorship in any form I feel I am much less trustworthy in these regards always checking games before I buy them if they are censored or not.

Are we sure it's related to gamergate (or by opposition to feminism I suppose) ? Japanese studios haven't been very productive this generation, even on innocuous games. It looks more like a shrinking of their market than self censorship. As a matter of fact the few games that still came to the west were still uninhibited as far as sexism is concerned (see MGS5 & Bayonetta for example... also the latest Tekken and the incoming Soulcalibur seem just as generous on fan service)

 

[LightofRohan]

"Gamergate" was originally posted by Adam Baldwin, who is not a video game guy. He's a far-right guy. The term should have been tossed away immediately, it was instantly tainted when it was born.


You are a new member here - I can't connect you to posts elsewhere on the Internet.

Adam Baldwin is an "alt right guy"? The actor? How is he altright? And what is your definition of alt-right.

 

[Moneal]

I find it weird to feel included in a criticism if my profile doesn't match the description. If I read an article about misogyny among gamers, my first reaction would be "must be the other gamers".
Also if I felt that target to be too broad, it would be all the more of a reason to separate myself from the true culprits, to make sure that I'm not associated with them. That would probably avoid the current situation where for the common opinion, gamergaters are "a bunch of sexist losers harassing people on Twitter".

Those articles weren't about misogyny among gamers. it was about how gamers and gamer culture being misogynistic and sexist and how gamers were dead.

Why did the two groups get lumped together to begin with?

 

[KevinKeene]

Well for someone like me who still has difficulties grasping the concept of Gamergate, it would indeed be useful to focus on real examples of what a "true" gamergater wants and does. So maybe you could give me some specific examples of stuff you're rooting for/against :
- could you name specific games that changed "the wrong way" due to social pressure ?
- same question for journalism, if that's also part of your concern : what specific behavior are you disapproving ?
- most importantly, what are you actively doing to defend those values ?

Sometimes it just seems this whole gamergate stuff is a bunch of people going at each other's throat on the internet, while for the industry it's business as usual.

Sorry, I missed your posting. Here's as far as my understanding goes.

Maybe most important to know is that those that align themselves with the core principles of GamerGate (as can be found in the OP) wouldn't call themselves 'GamerGater' or even see themselves as part of a group. These people hate labels and want to be recognized as individuals - well, most people would want that, right? So when anyone accuses GamerGate of being a right-wing, misogynistic harassment movement, they reduce the entire movement, made from people of every political affiliation, race, sexuality, age, sex, or whatever, to something that a tiny fraction of truly hateful idiots did. Imagine a member of NeoGAF making a thread about denying the Holocaust - even after closing the thread and banning that user, would it be fair to now call NeoGAF an alt-right neonazi group? Hardly.
So when we're speaking about GamerGate, we're speaking about the three core ideas as mentioned in the OP. What opponents of GamerGate, however, want to talk about is what they chose to brand GamerGate as - all for the wrongdoings of some idiots. That is why it's almost impossible to find a neutral source writing about GamerGate. On one hand you have instigators like Kotaku, Polygon, Wu, Zoey or Anita, who are talking about 'their' GamerGate - which mainstream media then accept as gospel, because women complaining about misogyny and harassment ... nobody dares questioning that. On the other hand, you have the actual GamerGate idea/movement/whatever, that knows well about itself - but nobody is interested in hearing their side, because the former group has already successfully poisened the well.

As for the specifics you asked for: Often times, you cannot point to a censored element and say 'that's because if that', because companies keep very quiet about it. You have to look at Tokyo Mirage Sessions to understand that. The game was censored to hell and back again. To this day, Nintendo has refused to comment on it. However, we got an awfully passive-aggressive statement from Atlus eventually that came down to admitting that the game was changed a lot, but it wasn't Atlus' decision. Very telling.
More obvious changes are the removee breadt slider in Xenoblade Chronicles X, various non-sensical age changes, or companies deciding not to release games in the west because of the current climate. And then you have all these cringworthy, tacked on 'diversity quota' chatacters in western games. GamerGate is not against diversity. But it should come naturally, not forced in ridiculous ways. Right now, Kingdom Come: Deliverance is demonized because it has no black characters. It diesn't matter that there were no widespread black people in that region in that era, but that doesn't matter: social justice activists are outraged. The lead developer is now a neonazi, and liking the game is seen as 'problematic'. That's what GamerGate dislikes.

I personally donlt follow gaming media much anymore, gematsu is all I need. But as mentioned before, the mainstream websites chose to ally with those that defined what GamerGate is in their limited view, so it's generally very frustrating to read any article that is about political elements. Then you even have jerks like George Takei who used 'GamerGate!' to deflect attention from his very own fuck-up during the whole Cuphead-disaster.
The media have made many bad decisions, and GamerGate calls them out for it.

As for your last bullet point, I'll refer to the beginning of my posting. Nobody is really actively doing anything. We want to enjoy playing games the way their developers envisioned them. That's it. Idon't think that's so bad.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

Adam Baldwin is an "alt right guy"? The actor? How is he altright? And what is your definition of alt-right.

He tweets conspiracy shit like "What hard evidence is there that Obama doesn't want Ebola in America?" which is the main thing fueling the altright today. His recent tweets seem to have him calmed down slightly (very right-wing tho), but there is one where he posts a picture of a black woman with a funny expression, and his followers join in with replies of black people with funny faces, others calling her a man. Totally Not Racist. He's still not related to video games in any way.

Most of his far-right content was sharing videos like Sargon of Akkad stuff.

Since I love japanese dumb stuff I can say it has. Japanese developers already fearing to release their game in the west. Instead they are developing Asia Versions of thei so you can import them if you are interested. And As someone who HATES censorship in any form I feel I am much less trustworthy in these regards always checking games before I buy them if they are censored or not.

How are Japanese people fearing releasing games in the west? They're releasing MORE of them now, we're getting Yakuza games again!

 

[Rim]

. These people hate labels and want to be recognized as individuals - well, most people would want that, right?

I assume you do not do this to other as well right? Like calling them SJW or feminazis. That would be hypocritical if you did.

 

[Lionel Richie]

I don't really give a shit anymore about all that drama though, and so many people have told me to kill myself or whatever that I can have a chuckle at it now, and I think it's possible to have reasonable discussion about issues like censorship and diversity in video games without going all -- as ever -- polarized us vs them sjw/tumblr feminist vs gg/alt-right/whatever. Pull your asses out of of that ridiculous, manipulated, polarized tribalism and start talking to your fellow human.

GodDAMN that's a great quote.

I think GG is largely LOLtastic in many ways, but one necessary thing they bring up almost as a side effect at times is the quality of gaming journalism. Seriously, it fucking sucks and they hold a ridiculous amount of power (look how well Monster Hunter World is selling after its incredible reception and many other examples like that). Be it by pushing a political agenda or by being largely incompetent at grasping the mechanics of a game and lacking any kind of technical knowledge whatsoever, it's bad. It's very bad. Many were quick to dismiss that Cuphead video thing as GGers being assholes but it was just an example of how you really can't trust these guys opinions. Don't even get me started on the more extreme cases of sheer idiocy like Polygon and Kotaku, even Eurogamer (which I loved) became unbearable lately outside of DF. It's terrible and we deserved better.

 

[Dunki]

He tweets conspiracy shit like "What hard evidence is there that Obama doesn't want Ebola in America?" which is the main thing fueling the altright today. His recent tweets seem to have him calmed down slightly (very right-wing tho), but there is one where he posts a picture of a black woman with a funny expression, and his followers join in with replies of black people with funny faces, others calling her a man. Totally Not Racist. He's still not related to video games in any way.

Most of his far-right content was sharing videos like Sargon of Akkad stuff.


How are Japanese people fearing releasing games in the west? They're releasing MORE of them now, we're getting Yakuza games again!

example

In recent video game news Team Ninja PR has announced that they are not planning on releasing Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 here due to how the sexualization of women in video games is viewed in the West. Does this issue ever affect your process of choosing which games will be released in the West?

Haru – That’s honestly their decision, but yes, sadly, it has stopped us from localizing certain Compile Heart games. We don’t want to censor anymore because we know that’s not true to the original developed art.

Following the Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 controversy, and the statement from Koei Tecmo regarding the West’s political climate when it comes to games, it has become quite obvious that fear of unknown reactions when releasing a game is at the forefront of some publishers’ priorities. When a game is developed with a very specific audience in mind, as is the case of many Japanese game developers and publishers, the content can garner undue negative feedback simply because of misunderstandings when it comes to intent and acceptability. This negative feedback can manifest as generally bad public relations or at worst a loss in sales, adding to the potential risk of the market. By making the title available in Asia with English language options all of this risk is avoided, as popular western media generally doesn’t concern itself with Asian releases.

 

[TheGraykid]

I'm not saying there aren't things to improve although I would argue that most of the improvements that need to happen are from the perspective of society in general not gaming specific.
Are there sexist gamers? Yes. Are there racist gamers? Yes. Because gamers are people and people are like that.
Are the games turning people racist or sexist? Well this is where I would say no and therefore do not have any drive to change them.
It feels similar to the games are making people violent argument from the past.

My argument isn't that gamers are being turned racist/sexist by games. It's that our culture is racist/sexist, the games are a part of that. Also, a part of improving society is having these conversations about our art, that is why it's so disheartening that people think it's bad that we have these discussions.

 

[Dunki]

My argument isn't that gamers are being turned racist/sexist by games. It's that our culture is racist/sexist, the games are a part of that. Also, a part of improving society is having these conversations about our art, that is why it's so disheartening that people think it's bad that we have these discussions.

Becasue these should be conversations not judgemental things like review scores. Great example was the Polygon Bayonetta 2 review. Gies called it a perfect game but since he hates japanese games and its sexualisation he lowered the score by 2 points alone.

 

[prag16]

- it's about getting "wrong think" out of everything.

The irony.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

example

Any businessman worth their title would release the game if it had a market. While I said we're getting more Japanese games than ever, we're still not getting all of them and never will. Blaming some kind of SJW/Feminist boogie man because of a bad business decision is not smart.

 

[TheGraykid]

Becasue these should be conversations not judgemental things like review scores. Great example was the Polygon Bayonetta 2 review. Gies called it a perfect game but since he hates japanese games and its sexualisation he lowered the score by 2 points alone.

If something negatively affected your gaming experience shouldn't that affect the review score? Critiques and reviews are an important part of discussion in my book.

 

[TheShadowLord]

example

they should look into developing it for the pc. It's not ideal, but if a game like Hatred can get released on steam, then so can this one. I do find it weird that one of the devs wanted modders to play nice for a game like DoA since the two seems to go together. Even fallout,tes, and one other thats name I can't remember(not a game but an engine to create cutscenes) all have adult content mods but the publishers don't seem to care.

 

[bufkus]

Becasue these should be conversations not judgemental things like review scores. Great example was the Polygon Bayonetta 2 review. Gies called it a perfect game but since he hates japanese games and its sexualisation he lowered the score by 2 points alone.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are entitled to your own personal opinion when it comes to skimpy outfits and all-white character casts but Gies is not?

 

[Reyben]

Most of his far-right content was sharing videos like Sargon of Akkad stuff.

Yes, Sargon is "far right".

That's an accurate representation of reality.

 

[Dunki]

If something negatively affected your gaming experience shouldn't that affect the review score? Critiques and reviews are an important part of discussion in my book.

But these are subjective and not helping anone beside you. If you want to do it. I know a great way to do it.

Like this:
Witcher 3 review

Game Score - 94%

Gameplay - 19/20
Graphics - 10/10
Sound - 9/10
Stability - 5/5
Controls - 4/5

Morality Score - 25%
Violence - 0/10
Language - 5/10
Sexual Content - 0/10
Occult/Supernatural - 0/10
Cultural/Moral/Ethical - 7.5/10

I am not even religious but I think this is a fantastic way to review games based onyour own idology and morals. Or even better not giving scores at all since today companies have metacritic scores in their contracts for promotions possible sequels etc.

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are entitled to your own personal opinion when it comes to skimpy outfits and all-white character casts but Gies is not?

I am not responsible for peoples jobs and the reception of games which will hinder them. Best example Fallout new vegas which did miss their promotion salary because of 1 lousy% with the metacritic review. If you are on metacritic you should have the decency to stop this bullshit IMO. Aagain best do not score at all and no one would care if you are triggered by certain aspects of a game or not.

 

[KevinKeene]

I'm having a hard time understanding why you are entitled to your own personal opinion when it comes to skimpy outfits and all-white character casts but Gies is not?

If you dock points for sexy designs in a game that never tried to hide these sexy designs, you're dishonest at best, hateful at worst. That's like docking points because you don't like a black protagonist in GTA:SA. Sure it's a personal opinion. But it has no place in a competent review.

 

[DryvBy]

I don't think these two things are even on the same level. There are awful people at stadiums, but over here in the UK, I've never heard a racial or homophobic slur. Let me put it this way, if I spend one-night playing video games online, I will hear more racist, homophobic, generally negative things, than I would hear over a year engaging in literally any other hobby. That's a major problem.

I play games all the time online, most of which are considered "toxic". Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fortnite/PUBG, MMOs, CS:GO, and sports games. I also use a headset. It's pretty rare to hear anything of what your describing these days. I can go weeks without hearing anything. I also probably put more time into gaming than most. This isn't denying that these types of remarks don't happen, but I hear it a lot less than I did when I first got on Xbox Live.

However, I still would say actual physical violence is worse than words any day of the week. Or like when you win the Super Bowl and you trash your city. And maybe in the UK sports are different but in the US, sports rivals are crazy. I'm a Sacramento Kings fan and we had people happy that Kobe Bryant had food poisoning back in the 02 playoffs. And there's many examples of racism in sports.

 

[bufkus]

I am not responsible for peoples jobs and the reception of games which will hinder them. Best example Fallout new vegas which did miss their promotion salary because of 1 lousy% with the metacritic review. If you are on metacritic you should have the decency to stop this bullshit IMO. Aagain best do not score at all and no one would care if you are triggered by certain aspects of a game or not.

So all reviews should be PR fluff pieces? It really sounds like you're trying to censor reviewers who don't have the same opinions as you.

If you dock points for sexy designs in a game that never tried to hide these sexy designs, you're dishonest at best, hateful at worst. That's like docking points because you don't like a black protagonist in GTA:SA. Sure it's a personal opinion. But it has no place in a competent review.

Either way he's entitled to write his "incompetent" review. You're free to oppose the review but I get the vibe you guys are trying to flat out stop any kind of dissenting opinion if it docks points for certain gameplay or visual elements that you believe should be universally accepted.

 

[ExpandKong]

Gamergate is a far-right hate movement organized in 8chan and in various secret IRC channels where they conspire and choose targets to concentrate death threats and other hate messages. These targets were originally somewhat gaming related like Zoe, but it later became a general anti-left movement. From EviLore's experience, it appears he was chosen as a target after posting something negative about the five guys story.

Lots of right-wing propagandists who shill for Trump endlessly, for example Mike Cernovich (he does not care about video games at all) and Milo Yiannopoulos (actually MOCKED gamers before GG), were Gamergaters when it was big. GG is very political and always has been. It's not about getting politics out of games - it's about getting "wrong think" (left wing politics) out of everything.

Far-right, death threats, conspiracy, Zoe Quinn, Trummmmmp, wrongthink, hate movement...yep you just about filled out my Anti-GG Bingo card with this post, thanks bud.

 

[Dunki]

So all reviews should be PR fluff pieces? It really sounds like you're trying to censor reviewers who don't have the same opinions as you.



Either way he's entitled to write his "incompetent" review. You're free to oppose the review but I get the vibe you guys are trying to flat out stop any kind of dissenting opinion if it docks points for certain gameplay or visual elements that you believe should be universally accepted.

No I am saying that you should take some kind of responsibility and think about your words before you write bullshit that will not help anyone besides your own ego.. Another great example would be this Gran Turismo 6 reivew which again landed on metacritic. And helps absolute NO one.

My first time on the track was a disaster. I hit the wall three times. I spent more time off the track than on it. I even wound up driving the wrong way at one point. My lack of digital driving skills is without question. Yet, here I am reviewing Gran Turismo 6, Polyphony Digital’s latest entry in its long-running “Real Driving Simulator” franchise. I got to spend some time with the game’s single-player content recently, and I’m here to give a newbie’s perspective. Did my time with Gran Turismo 6 make me a racing game convert?..... This could simply be because I’m not a racing fan and don’t get the appeal of driving around in circles without so much as a rocket launcher or turtle shell to break up the routine. ....As a nonracing fan, there’s a lot about it I still don’t understand. What are performance points and why are they important? I have no idea what torque is.

https://venturebeat.com/2013/12/06/gran-turismo-6-review/

So another point would be if you do hate a genre or culture to begin with DO NOT REVIEW IT. Reviews should inform the customer not portray your political views and ideologies If you want to rant about a genre culture you hate do it in an editorial or second opinion.

 

[TheGraykid]

But these are subjective and not helping anone beside you. If you want to do it. I know a great way to do it.

Like this:
Witcher 3 review


I am not even religious but I think this is a fantastic way to review games based onyour own idology and morals. Or even better not giving scores at all since today companies have metacritic scores in their contracts for promotions possible sequels etc.



I am not responsible for peoples jobs and the reception of games which will hinder them. Best example Fallout new vegas which did miss their promotion salary because of 1 lousy% with the metacritic review. If you are on metacritic you should have the decency to stop this bullshit IMO. Aagain best do not score at all and no one would care if you are triggered by certain aspects of a game or not.

Everything in a review is subjective. I get what you're saying and understand why that might be useful to some players, but at the same time I think it's difficult to separate those things out. For me, when I play games stories are great because they can give your gameplay actions a lot more weight and gameplay, a bad story can also take away from gameplay by undermining your actions. Therefore for me you cannot separate the two. I understand how if you just look at the review scores this can irritate you, but in my opinion review scores shouldn't really exist for any review, they undermine the text.

 

[Dunki]

Everything in a review is subjective. I get what you're saying and understand why that might be useful to some players, but at the same time I think it's difficult to separate those things out. For me, when I play games stories are great because they can give your gameplay actions a lot more weight and gameplay, a bad story can also take away from gameplay by undermining your actions. Therefore for me you cannot separate the two. I understand how if you just look at the review scores this can irritate you, but in my opinion review scores shouldn't really exist for any review, they undermine the text.

Than give no score at all. Why is this so hard? We should encourage these sites to abolish these scores and then they also can say what they want without getting any backlash for "stupid" opinions.

 

[Moneal]

Yes, Sargon is "far right".

That's an accurate representation of reality.

Gonna guess they have never watched Sargon and get their opinion of him from Anita.

 

[bufkus]

No I am saying that you should take some kind of responsibility and think about your words before you write bullshit that will not help anyone besides your own ego.. Another great example would be this Gran Turismo 6 reivew which again landed on metacritic. And helps absolute NO one.

I'm sorry, but I don't think reviewers should be held to the standard you're setting for them. They should be free to write whatever they want and it's up to readers to determine whether it's helpful for them. Reviews that have passed editorial oversight should not be censored.

 

[Moneal]

Than give no score at all. Why is this so hard? We should encourage these sites to abolish these scores and then they also can say what they want without getting any backlash for "stupid" opinions.

Because everyone has too little attention span to read anything and understand the opinion. Basically the same reason TLDR came about.

 

[bufkus]

Gonna guess they have never watched Sargon and get their opinion of him from Anita.

Sargon is well known for being anti-feminist. Not sure why you're trying to claim he's anything other than what Anita and others have said about him. His followers embrace his views.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad

 

[Dunki]

Sargon is well known for being anti-feminist. Not sure why you're trying to claim he's anything other than what Anita and others have said about him. His followers embrace his views.

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad

I am also anti feminist but not alt right so?^^

I only watched Sargon a short while but his This week in stupid videos were "great" if you want to facepalm what people actually doing...

 

[Alx]

Sorry, I missed your posting. Here's as far as my understanding goes.
(...)

Thanks for the explanations. I'll have a few comments below (may have reordered the quotes for better consistency with my answers).

As for the specifics you asked for: Often times, you cannot point to a censored element and say 'that's because if that', because companies keep very quiet about it. You have to look at Tokyo Mirage Sessions to understand that. The game was censored to hell and back again. To this day, Nintendo has refused to comment on it. However, we got an awfully passive-aggressive statement from Atlus eventually that came down to admitting that the game was changed a lot, but it wasn't Atlus' decision. Very telling.
More obvious changes are the removee breadt slider in Xenoblade Chronicles X, various non-sensical age changes, or companies deciding not to release games in the west because of the current climate.

Well that's unfortunate, as is the DOAX3 example that D Dunki mentioned. As a matter of fact DOAX3 seems to be a specific example of self censorship due to bad context. Covering some skin, artificially aging some teen characters and/or avoiding skimpy outfits for them doesn't seem entirely new to me, and to be honest may be appropriate. Western culture doesn't have the same perception of teenagers indeed. And I vaguely remember older examples of Japanese games getting the same treatment on PSX.
The changes may be discussed on a case by case basis, but I'd say it's your usual cultural adaptation process (again, except for the DOAX3 case).

And then you have all these cringworthy, tacked on 'diversity quota' chatacters in western games. GamerGate is not against diversity. But it should come naturally, not forced in ridiculous ways. Right now, Kingdom Come: Deliverance is demonized because it has no black characters. It diesn't matter that there were no widespread black people in that region in that era, but that doesn't matter: social justice activists are outraged. The lead developer is now a neonazi, and liking the game is seen as 'problematic'. That's what GamerGate dislikes.

Well that's not entirely new either. If we look at movies the concept of "token minority character" is hardly recent (I remember people chuckling at Morgan Freeman being in a Robin Hood movie for example). Even when the process feels forced and unnatural, it's just another trope to add to the pile of production clichés. But as much as I don't think one should blame a game for doing a cheap implementation of diversity, I agree that one shouldn't blame a game for not having it. I mean that if games in general would benefit from more diversity, not all of them should be an example of it. Like there should be more women as playable character, but not all game needs to have a playable woman for the sake of it.

So when anyone accuses GamerGate of being a right-wing, misogynistic harassment movement, they reduce the entire movement, made from people of every political affiliation, race, sexuality, age, sex, or whatever, to something that a tiny fraction of truly hateful idiots did. Imagine a member of NeoGAF making a thread about denying the Holocaust - even after closing the thread and banning that user, would it be fair to now call NeoGAF an alt-right neonazi group? Hardly.
(...)
On the other hand, you have the actual GamerGate idea/movement/whatever, that knows well about itself - but nobody is interested in hearing their side, because the former group has already successfully poisened the well.

(...)
As for your last bullet point, I'll refer to the beginning of my posting. Nobody is really actively doing anything. We want to enjoy playing games the way their developers envisioned them. That's it. Idon't think that's so bad.

See, that may be a big part of the issue. In the public opinion the Gamergate tag has indeed been hijacked by sexists and misogynists. But could they think differently if the non-sexist gamergaters did nothing to prevent that or take some distance from it ? Taking your example of a neogaf thread that goes wrong, if the thread isn't quickly closed and the users banned, most people would have reasons to believe the site protects hate speech. And I don't think gamergaters did the equivalent of "closing the thread and banning the users", or didn't do it clearly enough for people to notice.

 

[TheGraykid]

I play games all the time online, most of which are considered "toxic". Call of Duty, Battlefield, Fortnite/PUBG, MMOs, CS:GO, and sports games. I also use a headset. It's pretty rare to hear anything of what your describing these days. I can go weeks without hearing anything. I also probably put more time into gaming than most. This isn't denying that these types of remarks don't happen, but I hear it a lot less than I did when I first got on Xbox Live.

However, I still would say actual physical violence is worse than words any day of the week. Or like when you win the Super Bowl and you trash your city. And maybe in the UK sports are different but in the US, sports rivals are crazy. I'm a Sacramento Kings fan and we had people happy that Kobe Bryant had food poisoningback in the 02 playoffs. And there's manyexamplesofracisminsports.

Yeah, I pretty much had to quit playing Fifa because once every 5 or so games I'd just get abusive either on mic or messaged to me after the game. I also tried playing league of legends, which was also awful.

I can only speak to what I've observed, but in the UK even with crazy rivalries there isn't a culture that accepts fighting or racial slurs, if you do that you will be banned for life from places.

Than give no score at all. Why is this so hard? We should encourage these sites to abolish these scores and then they also can say what they want without getting any backlash for "stupid" opinions.

Why shouldn't they give a score if everyone else is allowed to give a score? I think scores are stupid, but obviously people want them.

 

[Hamster Plugin]

I am also anti feminist but not alt right so?^^

I only watched Sargon a short while but his This week in stupid videos were "great" if you want to facepalm what people actually doing...

He literally brings up "cultural marxism". That's a Nazi Germany conspiracy theory about Jews controlling us all. He is also constantly defending the alt-right no matter what. He's pretty much all in on it.

 

[bitbydeath]

I’ve read through the OP and various posts and still have no idea what gamergate is...

If it’s referring to how devs should make games then I’m against any rules being set in place.

If it’s referring to how people treat others online then no amount of rules will change that and it is a pointless endeavour.

 

[Dunki]

NO i

He literally brings up "cultural marxism". That's a Nazi Germany conspiracy theory about Jews controlling us all. He is also constantly defending the alt-right no matter what. He's pretty much all in on it.

WHAT? NO...
If even it was cultural Bolshevism which is a bit different to begin with... and especially not with jews.... For the other one...

Answer: Cultural Marxism can be a controversial term—some assert there’s no such thing, and others use the term as a catch-all for anything they see as undermining society. In short, cultural Marxism is a revolutionary leftist idea that traditional culture is the source of oppression in the modern world. Cultural Marxism is often linked to an insistence upon political correctness, multiculturalism, and perpetual attacks on the foundations of culture: the nuclear family, marriage, patriotism, traditional morality, law and order, etc. Cultural Marxists are assumed to be committed to establishing economic Marxism, in which case their cultural attacks are a necessary preparation for their ultimate goal.

 

[bufkus]

I’ve read through the OP and various posts and still have no idea what gamergate is...

If it’s referring to how devs should make games then I’m against any rules being set in place.

If it’s referring to how people treat others online then no amount of rules will change that and it is a pointless endeavour.

If the pro-GG people in this thread are to be believed, gamergate went from being about "ethics in video game journalism" to being against any form of video game localization that involves altering skimpy outfits/nudity/anything that could possibly upset a woman or person of color.

It's ironic that they cry censorship and then go and do their best to advocate censorship of opinions that don't align with their own. As evident by this outcry against reviews that dock points for the specific gameplay elements they champion.

 

[Basketball]

You can see the shift in how journalists view games these days and even how they treat the people buying them. 10 years ago it was about how fun a game was, the story, mechanics moreso. Different factors have shaped mainstream reviews these days. Some journalist even go out of there way in pre release interviews and ask some weird questions about character designs and the gender ratio among the dev team. I understand where some of the people with Gamergate come from. They're got sick of it all. Liking anything in a video game does determine anything in the real person playing it. You are not sexist for liking sexy or wanting attractive characters in games, you are not racist for finding something funny etc. Games are just games ... Fantasy,escapism,fun etc and people didn't want real life bullshit agendas by bullshit peddlers to corrupt things.

But it all went downhill when some of these idiots started harassing, sending death threats and acted like scum to random people. It could have been different perhaps but mob mentality really has a nature to turn sour at any moment.

 

[nowhat]

NO i

WHAT? NO...
If even it was cultural Bolshevism which is a bit different to begin with... and especially not with jews.... For the other one...

Uhh, the site you're quoting, is by own admission "Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence."

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps not the most objective source?

 

[Deleted member 738645]

I’ve read through the OP and various posts and still have no idea what gamergate is...

If it’s referring to how devs should make games then I’m against any rules being set in place.

If it’s referring to how people treat others online then no amount of rules will change that and it is a pointless endeavour.

I never really either understood GamerGate other than it first had something to do with ethics in video games journalism because a woman slept with a journalist or something, she got a lot of harassment. The it started being a hateful harassment campaign towards women who are into gaming and women in the gaming industry.

I get at it's start it was suppose be a good thing, but it quickly became so bad, like a game dev got his plane stopped due to bomb threat. One woman was suppose to speak at some place, but cancelled due to bomb threat. And more.

Dont' forget Trudeau also said something about GG.

 

[Lionel Richie]

He literally brings up "cultural marxism". That's a Nazi Germany conspiracy theory about Jews controlling us all.

This is factually incorrect, the term comes from Trent Schroyer's The Critique of Domination and it's a criticism of Frankfurt School and its attempt to control individuals through social and cultural pressure.

 

[Dunki]

Uhh, the site you're quoting, is by own admission "Got Questions Ministries seeks to glorify the Lord Jesus Christ by providing biblical, applicable, and timely answers to spiritually related questions through an internet presence."

Maybe it's just me, but perhaps not the most objective source?

I just googled the defintion which did not sound stupid. But ok is this better?

About

Cultural Marxism is a conceptual term used to describe the idea that culture is a main driving force for inequality in the Western world. Since its coinage by American sociology professor Trent Schroyer in 1973, the term has grown into a popular conspiracy theoryamong far right wing political conservatives who assert that the normalization of political correctness in modern-day society is a Marxist plot collectively undertaken by influential liberals in academic, artistic and cultural spheres to undermine Western traditions and Christianity. Online the term is frequently used on political image and message boards such as 4chan’s /pol/ board.

However, during the late 1990s, the meaning behind “cultural Marxism” became increasingly diluted and detached from its original context as many right-wing and neoconservative commentators, such as William S. Lind and Pat Buchanan, began using the term as a catch-all for left-wing cultural criticism in their commentaries. During the first half of the 2000s, this trend continued to gradually spread across other conservative think tanks, most notably the Schiller Institute.[9] On YouTube the most viewed video about cultural Marxism has nearly 253,000 views as of August 2015 (shown below).

http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/cultural-marxism

And I can clearly see the similarities between the regresive left or how we would call it and this thesis. They also believe that since they started this stupid culture war in the first place. They blame culture of toxic masculinit paatriachy etc for everything wrong with this world so I can see where they coming from.

 

[Cybrwzrd]

I think there's also an additional problem of labels being used to incorrectly say that a person supports something they don't.

Like, "SJW" was originally a very radical person but its definition has since morphed into "anyone left of Adolf Hitler" with all the far-right use of the term. There are also many types of feminists out there. Most mainstream feminists think that Mad Max: Fury Road is one of the most feminist movies ever and I agree with that view, as the movie contains most of the basic ideas of feminism. Anita Sarkeesian would be a minority with her weird opinion that it is a misogynist movie. All "Feminists" don't think a certain way, but places like Kotaku In Action are trying to tell you they do.

So when I go into Kotaku In Action and sees everyone complain about SJWs all the time, what am I supposed to think of it? What do they see as an SJW? I see myself as an SJW at least in that mad right-wing definition.

I am pretty much solidly against any SJWs. I'm against 4th wave feminism, identity politics, and segregated multiculturalism. I do on the other hand support the ideas of 2nd wave feminism and civil rights. I'm pro gay marriage and am for a melting pot type of multiculturalism where both assimilation and acceptance of new ingredients to the local cultural should be the goal.

I don't care what race or gender or sexuality you are. People are greater than the sum of those parts. We are all individuals who deal with innumerable hardships in life, and no path is the same. The only people who really have no palatable hardships in life are born with a bank account with 8 figures in it. And hell, even Batman had plenty of them. Hardship is relative, and it isn't a freaking Olympic sport as to who had to overcome the hardest thing to be successful.

I am a liberal as well, i'm down pretty far in the bottom left corner of the political spectrum. I support equality of opportunity and believe there should be strong regulations on businesses and functional social safety nets and everything else that needs to exist to have a society that ensures equality.

People also need to take responsibility for their own messes. Ignoring facts - or worse, making excuses for them;, because they are uncomfortable is not a way to fix things.

I'm not a gamergater, but I feel much more sympathy to their movement than to the media that has gone out of the way to paint them as some sort of hate group, when it is painfully obvious that isn't their goal.