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[Dee Dah Dave]

Indeed, we should be better than this. People are being fed an advertisement, and they should be questioning what they are eating.

Eh, it's an obvious improvement over the PSPro as expected, one year later. You think it's all fabricated lies lol?

Was anyone upset with their recent glowing review of the technology behind HZD, or the capabilities of the Pro in general?

 

[Bsigg12]

Waaaaait a minute.

So Scorpio DOES use liquid cooling?!!

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/project-scorpio

Whaaa

Yep. A vapor chamber is a first for a console. It's crazy as hell.

 

[BeforeU]

I don't get it. I see the cooling, but what else is making people think that it won't be $399 this holidays. It's not like it's launching tomorrow or a few months from now.

I don't know if I buy the DF price point speculation at all.

Ya me neither, was just watching GameInformer piece on this today, dude said 500-650.

I was like what? and he seriously believed that. No idea what is driving people to think MS will suicide.

 

[Wedzi]

My prediction is $400. Trade in Xbox One/Slim and it probably becomes $300. At $500, Scorpio will sell maybe half as much as the Pro and no, that wouldn't be a good thing for Microsoft.

When does everyone think Scorpio will release?

Majority will most likely pick November but my prediction is August 8th.

Well Phil said they are super early with Scorpio compared to other console launches he's been apart of. And digital foundry speculated that they are 6 months away from release given what they were shown. So that puts us at late September or October.

I could see them go either way though. Release in November to give devs lots of time to optimize as many games a possible for launch or maybe they'll try to get it out earlier before RD2 and Destiny 2 release.

 

[Piggus]

Waaaaait a minute.

So Scorpio DOES use liquid cooling?!!

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/project-scorpio

Whaaa

Before I clicked on that link I thought to myself "I bet they're using a vapor chamber and calling it liquid cooling."

Yep. It's a vapor chamber and they're calling it liquid cooling. MS PR never ceases to amaze.

Edit: apparently we're calling vapor chambers liquid cooling in this thread now. Hahahahaha...

 

[PeterLegend]

So PS4 Pro is dropping to $349 this fall bundled with a game huh? lol

 

[Shogmaster]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Scorpio. I came here because DF is a usually credible source with usually interesting and independent analysis. IMO, right now they are doing the exact opposite of what they're known for. MS is clearly interested in making their hardware seem stronger than it is and they've developed specific talking points to get that message out. Those same talking points appear verbatim in the article. There's no attempt from DF to distance themselves from the claims. They're just presented as fact: Scorpio does more with the same parts than an equivalent PC! Microsoft said so! Trust me!

Again, I ask: Did you have problem with him echoing Sony's bullet points on why checkerboard 4K is good enough on the PS4 Pro? Because I tell you what, he have me convinced on checkerboard 4K as well.

 

[El_Chino]

Yep. A vapor chamber is a first for a console. It's crazy as hell.

Didn't someone say it's the same thing PS4 does?

 

[Hockeymac18]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Scorpio. I came here because DF is a usually credible source with usually interesting and independent analysis. IMO, right now they are doing the exact opposite of what they're known for. MS is clearly interested in making their hardware seem stronger than it is and they've developed specific talking points to get that message out. Those same talking points appear verbatim in the article. There's no attempt from DF to distance themselves from the claims. They're just presented as fact: Scorpio does more with the same parts than an equivalent PC! Microsoft said so! Trust me!

How do you know it is not being presented as being as powerful as it actually is?

What is your evidence? Sounds like a bunch of conjecture.

The article and videos actually goes into some detail why it seems to be outperforming some similarly-speced PCs, and yes the customization that MS has put into the design do seem to be a part of that. The DF article and videos also caveat everything (as they should) by saying that those points are currently just based on his experience with the Forza engine - but again, it's not a lie if it's backed up by that data.

 

[Bsigg12]

Didn't someone say it's the same thing PS4 does?

No idea. We're 96 pages deep.

 

[Dabanton]

My prediction is $400. Trade in Xbox One/Slim and it probably becomes $300. At $500, Scorpio will sell maybe half as much as the Pro and no, that wouldn't be a good thing for Microsoft.

When does everyone think Scorpio will release?

Majority will most likely pick November but my prediction is August 8th.

Mid or late September just before the influx of big games.

 

[oldergamer]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Scorpio. I came here because DF is a usually credible source with usually interesting and independent analysis. IMO, right now they are doing the exact opposite of what they're known for. MS is clearly interested in making their hardware seem stronger than it is and they've developed specific talking points to get that message out. Those same talking points appear verbatim in the article. There's no attempt from DF to distance themselves from the claims. They're just presented as fact: Scorpio does more with the same parts than an equivalent PC! Microsoft said so! Trust me!

And we are supposed to just "trust" u on this? DF clearly knows more then what was revealed. Arguing about what you claim is or isn't a talking point is a waste of time.

 

[clav]

Waaaaait a minute.

So Scorpio DOES use liquid cooling?!!

If you've ever seen someone take apart a a Lumia 950 or 950 XL, it's just a fancy way of saying heatpipe design.

There's no liquid.

Real liquid cooling is too much of a hassle + too expensive. You have to deal with oxidation/rusting of components, which for many users here will say maintenance is too much upkeep.

Before I clicked on that link I thought to myself "I bet they're using a vapor chamber and calling it liquid cooling."

Yep. It's a vapor chamber. MS PR never ceases to amaze.

Edit: apparently we're calling vapor chambers liquid cooling now. Hahahahaha...

Yeah, not new if you've seen how MS marketed other products.

 

[FreshCakes]

So this is definitely going to be $500+ right?

 

[Giftofgab24]

Before I clicked on that link I thought to myself "I bet they're using a vapor chamber and calling it liquid cooling."

Yep. It's a vapor chamber. MS PR never ceases to amaze.

Edit: apparently we're calling vapor chambers liquid cooling now. Hahahahaha...

Is there liquid in there and does it help cool the SOC? What the hell else are they supposed to call it?

 

[VlaudTheImpaler]

Without seeing games I'm not comiting to anything. But it sure sounds good.

Fuck, I have no idea how to convince my wife that our newish 50" 1080p plasma needs to be replaced for 4k, lol. Its too big to move into the bedroom. Perhaps I find a smaller 4k set for there?

Take

Your

Time

Bro

 

[Kickz]

Phil needs to come to E3 stage and demo Crash Bandicoot and a catch phrase of "plays best on Xbox"

 

[Shogmaster]

Didn't someone say it's the same thing PS4 does?

Didn't Dreamcast also have some form of vapor transfer cooling rig as well? I remember the copper pipe and all that back in 1999.

 

[rokkerkory]

Dont forget the eurogamer vids too.

https://youtu.be/2vDCUcGPTWg

PS4 pro vs scorpio discussion with Richard.

 

[Head.spawn]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Scorpio. I came here because DF is a usually credible source with usually interesting and independent analysis. IMO, right now they are doing the exact opposite of what they're known for. MS is clearly interested in making their hardware seem stronger than it is and they've developed specific talking points to get that message out. Those same talking points appear verbatim in the article. There's no attempt from DF to distance themselves from the claims. They're just presented as fact: Scorpio does more with the same parts than an equivalent PC! Microsoft said so! Trust me!

Its almost like they're doing a tech preview/ introduction for an unreleased console, instead of doing a hands-on hardware analysis with games and frame data.

Disgusting!

 

[Wedzi]

Do you guys think we'll have access to the hard drive for replacement? Looking at the blown up internals it appears the hard drive might be accessible from the right side of the console.

 

[Bsigg12]

Mid or late September just before the influx of big games.

That would be something else.

Drop it a few weeks after Destiny 2 and that push of holiday games and go to town on marketing.

Microsoft has already said they expect the XBO S to outsell the Scorpio this holiday so getting it out earlier would be great.

Do you guys think we'll have access to the hard drive for replacement? Looking at the blown up internals it appears the hard drive might be accessible from the right side of the console.

I can't see them doing that considering they didn't do it with the Xbox One S revision. They'll likely just stick with externals only.

 

[Devilinthiscity]

This thing is probably going to be $499-$549? The DF guys mentioned it could end up costing $499. Anyway, it seems cool. Step above the PS4 Pro. Really looking forward to seeing what the console looks like at e3.

 

[xevis]

Again, I ask: Did you have problem with him echoing Sony's bullet points on why checkerboard 4K is good enough on the PS4 Pro? Because I tell you what, he have me convinced on checkerboard 4K as well.

I don't know anything about PS4 Pro. If the author did the same shit in the past I didn't notice. I don't see how prior precedent fixes anything. Unless you mean to say it's par for the course for DF and I've set my expectations too high?

How do you know it is not being presented as being as powerful as it actually is?

What is your evidence? Sounds like a bunch of conjecture.

Sure does. That's the point. It's all conjecture presented as fact.

 

[djnewwest]

I don't have an opinion one way or the other on Scorpio. I came here because DF is a usually credible source with usually interesting and independent analysis. IMO, right now they are doing the exact opposite of what they're known for. MS is clearly interested in making their hardware seem stronger than it is and they've developed specific talking points to get that message out. Those same talking points appear verbatim in the article. There's no attempt from DF to distance themselves from the claims. They're just presented as fact: Scorpio does more with the same parts than an equivalent PC! Microsoft said so! Trust me!

haha honestly this is some real fanboy bullshit. SO you are saying Scorpio is barely an upgrade and DF is lying to everyone? "fake news" right?

 

[Prologue]

Can we get some spark notes for those who are just joining in?


Did we get good news today?

 

[BLAUcopter]

haha honestly this is some real fanboy bullshit. SO you are saying Scorpio is barely an upgrade and DF is lying to everyone? "fake news" right?

DF only lies when they talk about Microsoft. Didn't you get the memo?

 

[hirokazu]

How do you know it is not being presented as being as powerful as it actually is?

I have no reason to doubt it's as powerful as they say it is, but a lot of this reveal just sounds like they're parroting Microsoft talking points.

They can't really do an independent analysis without having the hardware and only being shown one game. However, they could've attempted to make an assessment on what to expect given the specs. It doesn't seem like they did much of that, instead they just talk about what Microsoft has told them to expect from the console.

 

[AmyS]

So a future Xbox.(lets call it "Project Gemini" keeping with the astrological theme) and PS5 should be an even bigger leap forward around 2020, since they should both have Zen, Navi GPU and at least HBM2 if not HBM3, Also, 7nm FinFET, including TSMCs 2nd generation 7nm process. (Scorpio Engine is being fabbed by TSMC and AMD can use any foundry.)

None of those technologies are present in PS4 Pro or Scorpio.

Also:

AMD's building blocks for future desktop APUs and future consoles?

In the image below you can see that this APU uses eight different CPU dies/chiplets and eight different GPU dies/chiplets to create an exascale APU that can effectively act like a single unit. If these CPU chiplets use AMD's Ryzen CPU architecture they will have a minimum of 4 CPU cores, giving this hypothetical APU a total of 32 CPU cores and 64 threads.

This new APU type will also use onboard memory, using a next-generation memory type that can be stacked directly onto a GPU die, rather than be stacked beside a GPU like HBM. Combine this with an external bank of memory (perhaps DDR4) and AMD's new GPU memory architecture and you will have a single APU that can work with a seemingly endless amount of memory and easily compute using both CPU and GPU resources using HSA (Heterogeneous System Architecture).

In this chip both the CPU and GPU portions can use the packages onboard memory as well as an external memory, opening up a lot of interesting possibilities for the HPC market, possibilities that neither Intel or Nvidia can provide themselves.

Right now this new "Mega APU" is currently in early design stages, with no planned release date. It is clear that this design uses a new GPU design that is beyond Vega, using a next-generation memory standard which offers advantages over both GDDR and HBM.

Building a large chip using several smaller CPU and GPU dies is a smart move from AMD, allowing them to create separate components on manufacturing processes that are optimised and best suited to each separate component and allows each constituent piece to be used in several different CPU, GPU or APU products.

For example, CPUs could be built on a performance optimised node, while the GPU clusters can be optimised for enhanced silicon density, with interposers being created using a cheaper process due to their simplistic functions that do not require cutting edge process technology.

This design method could be the future of how AMD creates all of their products, with both high-end and low-end GPUs being made from different numbers of the same chiplets and future consoles, desktop APUs and server products using many of the same CPU or GPU chiplets/components.

https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cp...a_exascale_mega_apu_in_a_new_academic_paper/1

Exciting times for consoles!

 

[transformer]

Isnt that the job of the tv scaler and not the bluray player?

here's the thing? What's refreshing about it....? ....In what way is it more refreshed from the Jaguar in the PS4 PRO? or PS4 or XB1 for that matter?

The digital foundry article has a few paragraphs on this exact topic. It discusses the "extensive customization" and additional hardware to offset CPU demand and improve CPU performance over the CPU in those consoles.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I don't know anything about PS4 Pro. If the author did the same shit in the past I didn't notice. I don't see how prior precedent fixes anything. Unless you mean to say it's par for the course for DF and I've set my expectations too high?



Sure does. That's the point. It's all conjecture presented as fact.

Except Richard from DF has seen the hardware, gotten an in-depth preview of it, and has seen it in action (and took documentation of that analysis with the Forza screenshot).

You or I have not. Whose word should we believe here?

 

[xevis]

Its almost like they're doing a tech preview/ introduction for an unreleased console, instead of doing a hands-on hardware analysis with games and frame data.

Disgusting!

And that would be fine. Just call it what it is: a paid advertisement. Put a disclaimer at the top telling us how Microsoft funded the trip and wined and dined DF (or whatever the arrangement was to secure this "exclusive") and everyone can adjust their expectations accordingly for what's to come.

 

[kingwingin]

Do you guys think we'll have access to the hard drive for replacement? Looking at the blown up internals it appears the hard drive might be accessible from the right side of the console.

doesnt look like it. The hdd is sitting on a plastic tray like the xbox one s and the port on the back is flexible wire not a connection attached to the chassis.

 

[Hockeymac18]

I have no reason to doubt it's as powerful as they say it is, but a lot of this reveal just sounds like they're parroting Microsoft talking points. They can't really do an independent analysis without having the hardware and only being shown one game, but they don't even put any caveats in to wait until a more thorough performance analysis can be done.

They do actually put in caveats.

They didn't say "go pre-order it now", either.

 

[Doffen]

Before I clicked on that link I thought to myself "I bet they're using a vapor chamber and calling it liquid cooling."

Yep. It's a vapor chamber and they're calling it liquid cooling. MS PR never ceases to amaze.

Edit: apparently we're calling vapor chambers liquid cooling in this thread now. Hahahahaha...

How are they making the gas without liquid?
Edit: They are also calling it vapor chamber and describing it as advanced liquid cooling.

 

[Bod]

And that would be fine. Just call it what it is: a paid advertisement. Put a disclaimer at the top telling us how Microsoft funded the trip and wined and dined DF and everyone can adjust their expectations accordingly for what's to come.

My god some people are so desperate to down play Scorpio, it is pathetic

 

[rokkerkory]

And that would be fine. Just call it what it is: a paid advertisement. Put a disclaimer at the top telling us how Microsoft funded the trip and wined and dined DF (or whatever the arrangement was to secure this "exclusive") and everyone can adjust their expectations accordingly for what's to come.

Then thats like for any media outlet lol

 

[EASTC0AST_GH05T]

Will the power leap be huge enough to want to own a Scorpio if you already own a PS4 Pro? I don't care to much about the Xbox exclusives but if the multiplats look and run considerately better I will pick one up if the price is right.

 

[Renekton]

Indeed, we should be better than this. People are being fed an advertisement, and they should be questioning what they are eating.

You're calling DF a shill now?

 

[GarthVaderUK]

If you've ever seen someone take apart a a Lumia 950 or 950 XL, it's just a fancy way of saying heatpipe design.

There's no liquid.

Real liquid cooling is too much of a hassle + too expensive. You have to deal with oxidation/rusting of components, which for many users here will say maintenance is too much upkeep.

How do vapour chambers work, anyway? Going by the name I'd have naturally assumed it was some sort of liquid evaporating and condensing to transfer heat but I'm not in any way knowledgeable about it...

 

[clav]

How are they making the gas without liquid?
Edit: They are also calling it vapor chamber and describing it as advanced liquid cooling.

When people say liquid cooling, they expect water to be in the equation.

 

[Detective]

So suddenly DF are not trustworthy,

It was pretty much expected shit like this will be passed on.

 

[BeforeU]

This is why I think it will be no more than $400

1). It is crucial for MS to sell as many of these as possible and grow XBL userbase
2). Its all about the eco system, there will not be any more generations. And all your library will stay with you with each console release. It ties into my first point, they need to grab more people in their eco system so they are more likely to buy next Xbox and keep paying XBL Gold
3). Eventhough its a custom APU, it is still Jaguar and Polaris. You are telling me 1 year after PS4 Pro launch this thing costs $100 more?

Last and the most important

PS4 Pro will be $350 with bundled game. Selling a console for $500+ and saying its significantly better than PS4 Pro is shit marketing. Ya you pay more you get more duhh!!!.

This will be DOA if its $500 USD or more

 

[Bsigg12]

Will the power leap be huge enough to want to own a Scorpio if you already own a PS4 Pro? I don't care to much about the Xbox exclusives but if the multiplats look and run considerately better I will pick one up if the price is right.

Possibly? We won't know for a while though. For the changes and upgrade to the CPU and such, that should hopefully help frame rates at the very least.

 

[WhiteRabbitEXE]

All I know is Halo 5 better get a fucking 4k patch day one. I'm all the fuck in if that happens.

More importantly, that patch should include split screen. It probably won't so that's a big ask and the game will be 2 years old, but come on, do it!

MCC also needs a relaunch with Scorpio, and a 4K/60FPS patch.

 

[mike6467]

Its almost like they're doing a tech preview/ introduction for an unreleased console, instead of doing a hands-on hardware analysis with games and frame data.

Disgusting!

And that would be fine. Just call it what it is: a paid advertisement.

There's no evidence these two things are the same. You're instead questioning the integrity of everything DF has done up to this point.

 

[AmyS]

Digital Foundry are pretty damn trustworthy, and Scorpio seems pretty sweet.

I already want one.

 

[transformer]

So suddenly DF are not trustworthy,

It was pretty much expected shit like this will be passed on.

Yeah. Until ps5 is announced and we read the exclusive DF article on the specifications. Then they will be trustworthy again. 2-3 years by my guesstimate.

 

[clav]

How do vapour chambers work, anyway? Going by the name I'd have naturally assumed it was some sort of liquid evaporating and condensing to transfer heat but I'm not in any way knowledgeable about it...

I'm guessing something like this article describes in a Microsoft's Lumia 950 XL.

http://www.techtree.com/content/features/9956/why-microsoft-uses-liquid-cooling-lumia-950.html

 

[Muzicfreq]

Wait wait wait... I listed this on low end $500 but wouldn't be shocked to see $600...

Watercooling?
$600 I'm calling
Edit: nvm vapor heat exchange design which is used in heatpipes anyways... Odd to label that as some special tech