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[SiegfriedFM]

Amiga has mostly been forgotten here, but I'd say it's just as much a console.

https://youtu.be/mLZoYUgilkI?t=325
Killing Game Show - the water was a huge part of the game design

https://youtu.be/m-IDcTW8JQ4?t=273
Brian the Lion - did the Castlevania effect without Mode 7

Also, while it didn't have enough fancy built-in effects (besides scaling), the Neo-Geo laughs at all other attempts at sprite effects. The Metal Slugs, the waterfall stage in Garou, the rain stage in KoF'99, the fire stage in LB2...

 

[nkarafo]

Hardware wise the Amiga was just as good as the consoles but with the slow, 1MB, floppies there was no chance to be able to compete with console games later on. Consoles had up to 4MB (even more on SNES) of ultra fast, solid state ROM.

Sure, there was the option of a hard disk (assuming games could run from it) but in early 90's a hard disk would cost more than a brand new console and a few games...

 

[Durante]

Terranigma underworld map:

THat's the one I wanted to post. Really unique spin on the "standard" Mode 7 world map.

 

[pixelation]

R-Type 3 has so many, just in the first level, including a ton of rotation, scaling, convincing 3D-like hexagonal rotation, and this one, zooming out from your ship's core and into gameplay:

This is so awesome.

 

[Krejlooc]

Well, to be fair, you could probably buy a brand new, state of the art, 68000 based arcade motherboard with less money than what the Amiga 1000 would ask for in 1985. The amiga wasn't really an affordable games machine until 1987 with the cheaper 500 version.

I have a system 16 shinobi board from 1987 that came with all the material from the guy who ordered it. it was part of a conversion kit, he bought the board separately from the cabinet. It also came with a POS receipt, the board cost over $2500.

You could get an Amiga at launch for under $1500 2 years prior.

No way.

 

[Taruranto]

THat's the one I wanted to post. Really unique spin on the "standard" Mode 7 world map.

And dat OST.

Such a shame SE forgot this game ever existed, virtual console port never.

 

[nkarafo]

I have a system 16 shinobi board from 1987 that came with all the material from the guy who ordered it. it was part of a conversion kit, he bought the board separately from the cabinet. It also came with a POS receipt, the board cost over $2500.

You could get an Amiga at launch for under $1500 2 years prior.

No way.

Ok i guess i was wrong with my numbers.

My point still stands though. At less than 1500$ (more than 3k in todays money) you would expect it to be "ahead of it's time" compared to other home computers then, plus it wasn't really a games machine yet but more like a workstation.

 

[Dragon1893]

The ones that always come to mind for me are Toy Story, Vectorman, Earthworm Jim, Yoshi's Island and DKC. These were insane achievements on the 16 bit consoles.
On the mega drive if I had to single out one it would be Toy Story, completely blew my mind.

 

[Krejlooc]

Ok i guess i was wrong with my numbers.

My point still stands though. At less than 1500$ (more than 3k in todays money) you would expect it to be "ahead of it's time" compared to other home computers then, plus it wasn't really a games machine yet but more like a workstation.

Except the computers it competed against were still more expensive at the time. What would eventually be known as the Amiga 1000 at launch (because it wasn't designated as the Amiga 1000 yet) retailed at $1295. The most recently apple computer, the macintosh, retailed for $2495. The IBM PC-AT retailed at $5469.

And, most relevant, the Amiga crushed both of those computers in terms of abilities. The Amiga was always among the cheapest bang for your buck computing deals. You have to dip into several years old 8-bit micros before you start beating the Amiga in price.

Even going back before your reach the top of the line from it's peer, the Apple IIe (which doesn't compare to the Amiga at all) was still $1395 at the time, and the Apple IIc, which was a cut-down, cost-reduced version of the Apple IIe, was the exact same price as the Amiga.

 

[dr. apocalipsis]

Hardware wise the Amiga was just as good as the consoles but with the slow, 1MB, floppies there was no chance to be able to compete with console games later on. Consoles had up to 4MB (even more on SNES) of ultra fast, solid state ROM.

Sure, there was the option of a hard disk (assuming games could run from it) but in early 90's a hard disk would cost more than a brand new console and a few games...

Floppies were pretty cheap and you could use several of them. Then, Amiga has much more RAM and it could be upgraded even further. So storage war is pretty much won easily by Amiga except for loading times.

Not to mention Amiga magic was done inside of its own custom chipset, Agnus, Paula and Denise. That's why it is so different to other machines based on M68K. Not saying it is superior to Megadrive, since this one is much better at pushing sprites and some other things. But people tend to disregard it always.

Trying to talk about getting something with a 68K for cheap make little sense without considering all the other chip present around it.

 

[afternoon delight]

Really blew me away back in the day- not only were those levels really fun and challenging, but a huge change up from the "flash to black" effect that'd been used so much during night stages or lightning effects in games.

 

[Zoloft Sonic]

sin, the mathematical function. You feed it a value, and it gives you a value in return, that swings from -1 to 1 to back to -1 and so forth infinitely. Example:
Sin(1) = 0.8414709848
Sin(2) = 0.90929742682
Sin(3) = 0.14112000806
Sin(4) = -0.7568024953
Sin(5) = -0.95892427466
Sin(6) = -0.27941549819
Sin(7) = 0.65698659871
Sin(8) = 0.98935824662
Sin(9) = 0.41211848524
and so forth

This is because Sin is the Y height of a circle as you trace around the circle (where Cos is the X value... or I might have Y and X mixed up, doesn't really matter) like so:

This calculation cannot be done in the m68k processor of the genesis quickly enough (this is why Yoshi's Island uses a math co-processor for rotation of sprites) so, to fake it, they precalculated out Sin according to 255 radians (approximately a circle), and used the current value of Sin(X) as the offset for the pixels being drawn. So Row 1, at the top of the screen, is offset by Sin(1) which means they shift over a value similar to 0.8414709848 , while row 2 is offset by Sin(2) which means they shift over a value similar to 0.90929742682 and so forth. In actuality, to animate the rolling background, the value of the current row is also added to a figure that counts up as time goes forward, so the starting offset changes each frame.

Because of the way a unit circle works, you can get the values on the opposite side of the circle by negating the value of Sin. So, rather than store all the values of Sin from 0-255, they only stored 1/4 of the values and just multiply by negatives (which the genesis CPU can do quickly) to arrive at the correct values while only using 1/4 the rom space.

Fantastic post.

 

[DJIzana]

God I miss good looking sprite games like all these. What I wouldn't give for a return to form.

I mean, we have some cool ones being made like Eastward and Mother 4 Fan Game that are throwbacks but would be cool to see more... and more of different genres at that.

 

[djplaeskool]

ThunderForce IV had the coolest parallax I'd seen up to that point:

Hell yeah
The verticality of TFIV let them create a huge sense of speed with the range of parallax scrolling

 

[petran79]

Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master final boss

Watching this in the arcades was quite impressive

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

People forget Rare's history. They were much a demoscene-inspired studio.

Well, they may well have been inspired by the demoscene of the time, but don't forget Rare were founded by Tim and Chris Stamper who were doing amazing tech tricks with the ZX spectrum long before the demoscene really existed in the early 80's. This was as Ultimate (Play the Game), see the game Knight Lore, one of the first isometric 3D games seen (apart from the inferior looking Ant Attack) on the ZX Spectrum. It was actually written before their last couple of 2D releases but held back as they knew if they released it first it would ruin sales of the 2D games.

They got hold of an early NES from Japan and completely reverse engineered it with no help from Nintendo, which eventually impressed and convinced Nintendo to take them on as a third party. They then set up Rare and the rest is history.


Technological wizards and visionaries from the start.

Edit: Great posts by the way, it's just I would argue the demoscenes of the late 80's and early 90' are more likely to have been inspired by them.

 

[Krejlooc]

Well, they may well have been inspired by the demoscene of the time, but don't forget Rare were founded by Tim and Chris Stamper who were doing amazing tech tricks with the ZX spectrum long before the demoscene really existed in the early 80's

...demoscene streches back to the 50's with display hacks. What you describe on the ZX spectrum absolutely is demoscene.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

...demoscene streches back to the 50's with display hacks. What you describe on the ZX spectrum absolutely is demoscene.

Cool, but I stand by what I say. I've followed the Stamper story for 30 odd years now and I don't recall them or any of the Rare staff ever mentioning being inspired by any demoscene. A recent Retro Gamer article maintained internal competition from various teams was a great driver for technical innovation.

 

[Krejlooc]

Cool, but I stand by what I say. I've followed the Stamper story for 30 odd years now and I don't recall them or any of the Rare staff ever mentioning being inspired by any demoscene. A recent Retro Gamer article maintained internal competition from various teams was a great driver for technical innovation.

To participate in demoscene is to be inspired by it in the first place

You don't enter demoscene in isolation

 

[BocoDragon]

This thread is fun. It indirectly points out "whoa" moments in 16-bit games, not just graphical prowess. If a game ever deviated from the standard 2D sprite look, it was a special moment.

 

[Nerrel]

You can pick almost anything from Super Metroid, but I've always loved the speed booster and water effects.

 

[katsubento]

I kind of miss seeing ThunderForce Parallax scrolling.

 

[woodypop]

This thread crashed my tablet, I guess it doesn't have blast processing.

Lol, mine too.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

To participate in demoscene is to be inspired by it in the first place

You don't enter demoscene in isolation

This doesn't make sense, it's circular logic.

You talk about 50's display hacks, which were just that - hacks. The 'demoscene' (arguably, I admit) didn't even begin to form until the advent and popularisation of BBS systems in the early to mid 80's, by which time the early form of Rare were innovating graphically. I don't believe the Stampers/Ultimate/Rare were influenced by any demoscene, they were always the innovators that were followed, not the followers. As far as I know Rare never contributed anything directly to the demoscene, they just made some great games.

Your original statement was that Rare were inspired by the demoscene, but I've never seen any evidence of this. Please link to something and I'll humbly retract this!



Edit: you make some great technical posts, but don't let sweeping statements ruin your credibility.

 

[RyudBoy]

Shinobi III: Return of the Ninja Master final boss

Watching this in the arcades was quite impressive

Wait wut, Shinobi 3 had an arcade version?

 

[EPSYLON EAGLE]

http://imgur.com/1VzuyWo

Software zooming - Lawnmower Sega Genesis

 

[oneida]

sorry if already posted

 

[Milly Osworth]

I reallllly want a DKC game with the SNES DKC artstyle again.

 

[nkarafo]

Floppies were pretty cheap and you could use several of them. Then, Amiga has much more RAM and it could be upgraded even further. So storage war is pretty much won easily by Amiga except for loading times.

I disagree. Sure, you can have unlimited floppies if you want. But the loading and slow access would be a huge bottleneck. There are already some late Amiga ports of Mortal Kombat games where you have to change disks constantly. Or, imagine something like Super Metroid, which is non-linear and you can have access in the whole map, so the game has no idea where you are going to go next. You would have to swap disks every time you change areas. Even with just 2 disks a game like this would be a huge pain in the ass.

So, in order to minimize this problem what else you can do? Minimize the number of floppies. Which means sacrifice graphics, animation frames, etc.

 

[Krejlooc]

This doesn't make sense, it's circular logic.

You talk about 50's display hacks, which were just that - hacks. The 'demoscene' (arguably, I admit) didn't even begin to form until the advent and popularisation of BBS systems in the early to mid 80's, by which time the early form of Rare were innovating graphically. I don't believe the Stampers/Ultimate/Rare were influenced by any demoscene, they were always the innovators that were followed, not the followers. As far as I know Rare never contributed anything directly to the demoscene, they just made some great games.

Your claim that demoscene started with BBSes is at odds with historic demoscene examples. The "Bouncing Ball" demo from 1984 predates the modern internet by several years. Early demoscene was distributed by hand at demo parties.

Your original statement was that Rare were inspired by the demoscene, but I've never seen any evidence of this. Please link to something and I'll humbly retract this!

Because their games are full of demoscene inventions that they did not create. All parallax scrolling as they performed it, for example, stems from demoscenes. The line scrolls that are all over their games, they didn't invent that technique, it goes back years before even the ZX Spectrum existed.

Nobody is doubting that the Stamper Bros contributed to demoscene, but they use as shit used plenty of visual tricks created in the demoscene by others in their games.

Edit: you make some great technical posts, but don't let sweeping statements ruin your credibility.

My credibility is fine.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Your claim that demoscene started with BBSes is at odds with historic demoscene examples. The "Bouncing Ball" demo from 1984 predates the modern internet by several years. Early demoscene was distributed by hand at demo parties.



Because their games are full of demoscene inventions that they did not create. All parallax scrolling as they performed it, for example, stems from demoscenes. The line scrolls that are all over their games, they didn't invent that technique, it goes back years before even the ZX Spectrum existed.

Nobody is doubting that the Stamper Bros contributed to demoscene, but they use as shit used plenty of visual tricks created in the demoscene by others in their games.



My credibility is fine.

Your claim that demoscene started with BBSes is at odds with historic demoscene examples. The "Bouncing Ball" demo from 1984 predates the modern internet by several years. Early demoscene was distributed by hand at demo parties.

BBS were around in the early 80's before the modern HTTP protocol was popular, so I'm confused by this statement. Yeah sure there were earlier sneakernet parties, but that's not the point of argument here is it? I think you missed some words.

Anyway,the bouncing ball demo was a product of the original Amiga OS team, not the demoscene.

I think what you are really saying is that ultimately, everyone is inspired by the demoscene. Because thats the only thing that would make sense. People of course naturally see what's out there and want to emulate it, so this would not only apply to Rare.

Again, I invite you to link to evidence that Rare were inspired by the demoscene, that's all otherwise its a vapid drive by statement with no evidence to back it up, and yes you're losing credibility with me. Shame as I generally enjoy your posts.

No, Rare never contributed directly to the demoscene nor were specifically influenced by it more than any other of their contemporaries, and your point is moot.

Peace.

 

[Krejlooc]

BBS were around in the early 80's before the modern HTTP protocol was popular, so I'm confused by this statement. Yeah sure there were earlier sneakernet parties, but that's not the point of argument here is it? I think you missed some words.

Considering my claim is that demoscene stretches back to the 50's I don't see what you are confused about. The first demos were display hacks that weren't distributed via BBSes, but rather demonstrated in person at demoparties.

Anyway,the bouncing ball demo was a product of the original Amiga OS team, not the demoscene.

I fail to see what the team that created the demo has to do with whether or not it is demoscene. The Amiga Bouncing Ball demo is a historic demo and an ingrained part of demoscene. Do you somehow think Demoscene is limited to a certain unprofessional channels? Manfred Trenz is considered one of the most influential demoscene artists of all time and much of his stuff was used professionally.

I think what you are really saying is that ultimately, everyone is inspired by the demoscene.

Virtually every graphical trick derives from demoscene, yes.

so this would not only apply to Rare.

What applies to rare is that they used much more tricks that were only popular in demoscene at the time than competitors. Rare's games look like a best-of list of demoscene effects from the era.

Again, I invite you to link to evidence that Rare were inspired by the demoscene, that's all otherwise its a vapid drive by statement with no evidence to back it up, and yes you're losing credibility with me. Shame as I generally enjoy your posts.

I already explained my logic. Speaking of credibility, you might want to avoid calling posters vapid when you fully understand their point if you wish to retain any. Also, do you even know what a drive by post is?

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Considering my claim is that demoscene stretches back to the 50's I don't see what you are confused about. The first demos were display hacks that weren't distributed via BBSes, but rather demonstrated in person at demoparties.



I fail to see what the team that created the demo has to do with whether or not it is demoscene. The Amiga Bouncing Ball demo is a historic demo and an ingrained part of demoscene. Do you somehow think Demoscene is limited to a certain unprofessional channels? Manfred Trenz is considered one of the most influential demoscene artists of all time and much of his stuff was used professionally.



Virtually every graphical trick derives from demoscene, yes.



What applies to rare is that they used much more tricks that were only popular in demoscene at the time than competitors. Rare's games look like a best-of list of demoscene effects from the era.



I already explained my logic. Speaking of credibility, you might want to avoid calling posters vapid when you fully understand their point if you wish to retain any.

Well, it seems that we have different opinions on things, and looking back, its not the first time.

I enjoy your posts, let's be friends and not foes. I enjoy our conversations.

 

[Lord Error]

I think what you are really saying is that ultimately, everyone is inspired by the demoscene. Because thats the only thing that would make sense.

Well yeah. I'm not sure what else are you arguing. It is almost impossible not to be, unless you lived and worked from a cave. I am inspired by it, but never really contributed to it. As for Rare specifically, I don't think their games just so happened to feature the visual trickery that was popular in demos of that time. I think conversely it's just as likely that some of what they've done in their games has made people in demoscene emulate such effects on a different hardware for example.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Well yeah. I'm not sure what else are you arguing. It is almost impossible not to be, unless you lived and worked from a cave. I am inspired by it, but never really contributed to it.

Thanks.

 

[The Real Abed]

Stop arguing about this. It's stupid and no one cares.

Get back to posting cool screenshots and GIFs please.

 

[Sinatar]

First time I saw this room in Super Castlevania IV, my mind was blown!

Sorry, I couldn't find an animated gif. :-/

 

[Zenlightened]

Just wanting to show the ugly side for contrast to some of this beautiful art. Never forget.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Stop arguing about this. It's stupid and no one cares.

Get back to posting cool screenshots and GIFs please.

Is this not a forum where people can discuss different views they don't agree on? Otherwise, what's the point of a forum?

Can you post a cool screenshot or GIF?

 

[0racle]

Omg, read the thread title and thought vector man. First gif I see, vector man. AWESOME.

 

[The Real Abed]

Is this not a forum where people can discuss different views they don't agree on? Otherwise, what's the point of a forum?

Arguing about whether Rare was or was not inspired by something when they created something when the thread is about posting cool images of those effects is borrrrrring. I want screenshots. Gimmie gimmie gimmie.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

Arguing about whether Rare was or was not inspired by something when they created something when the thread is about posting cool images of those effects is borrrrrring. I want screenshots. Gimmie gimmie gimmie.

Go to desktop, press 'prn scr'. Open MSPaint. CTRL-V.

Voila, as the French say.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Flashback QFI was great

 

[lazygecko]

 

[Krejlooc]

Well, it seems that we have different opinions on things, and looking back, its not the first time.

I enjoy your posts, let's be friends and not foes. I enjoy our conversations.

I don't take offense to conversation about gaming or graphical history or even potential misunderstandings, but I do take offense to my views being called vapid, particularly when I'm versed in the topic and take effort to explain my reasoning. But I agree, I'd rather we talk about the tricks and history rather than snipe back and forth at one another as that's far more interesting.

 

[_Spr_Drnk]

I don't take offense to conversation about gaming or graphical history or even potential misunderstandings, but I do take offense to my views being called vapid, particularly when I'm versed in the topic and take effort to explain my reasoning. But I agree, I'd rather we talk about the tricks and history rather than snipe back and forth at one another as that's far more interesting.

Cheers, and I've taken your points on board.

 

[hodgy100]

Thank u, i was the pixeler on that one , and now working on a sequel.. =)

Excellent! I'll look forward to seeing it!

 

[Sonicbug]

I will 5th, or 6th the lava in Rocket Knight.

Especially because of how it worked for the level design, and the way it appears to cling to and go around the rocks.

 

[Vulcano's assistant]

no time for caution

 

[Soltype]

Best game ever

https://gfycat.com/SneakyRemarkableCony