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[PtM]

I don't know that "Who are you?" and "Bye!" are really character-defining questions. Skyward Sword had the occasional dialogue option too, but they were, for the most part, extremely superficial and ineffectual.

Just for the record, Zelda 4 has had dialogue options, too. Nothing major, as well.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Well one is literally the by-far most significant female character in DC history (no lead character even comes close), and is extremely defined by her gender (she's basically supposed to be Super Feminism) and the other is male for no significant reason than "this is what we did." Thus, the comparison is not valid.

Also, you can't apply the logic applied to a character who reincarnates to characters who do not. That makes no sense.

I don't really see the difference between the two in terms of their gender mattering. One was designed as a woman, her story was then written around that in a way, the other was designed as a male, his story wasn't written around that, but it still matters. Unless you want to argue that characters like Solid Snake and Mario have "unimportant genders" which they clearly do not. Really, all I feel like you're doing is consistently moving the goalposts; you yourself have already deemed that Link's gender is irrelevant, and as such nothing, even the developers stating that he's meant to be male, will ever be enough to convince you otherwise.

Likewise, I consider it extremely hilarious that we're able to hold this conversation about Link and consistently refer to him as things like "him" and "Link" and have it flow naturally, despite you and others constantly trying to bring up the "multiple" Links. It's even more hilarious that both Aonuma and Miyamoto can somehow refer to this character in a singular manner, despite how hard ya all are trying to make note of the "multiple" Links.

Except for when I don't like something in a game.

Also, no one can make Nintendo do anything, then deciding to do this based on this feedback is creative freedom. This is people criticizing a decision and wanting a option. Like tons of threads here.

It's also full of people claiming to want representation and a playable female all while throwing their arms in the air and drawing lines in the sand over nonsensical stuff like whether or not it'll be a "real" game and how a "playable Zelda wouldn't work cause reasons." They straight up just said that they'll, probably, making a game starring Sheik, why is that not enough? Why does it have to be Link? Why can you not compromise?

 

[A Link to the Past]

Uh, Mario and Snake DON'T need to be men. They simply are. Link doesn't NEED to be a man, he just is. The notion that any of these characters are defined by gender is a notion that invents story elements. Snake could have just as easily been a woman, considering how The Boss is arguably just as good a soldier as Snake (if not better). In Mario's case, if Mario was a girl named Maria, we wouldn't see any issues. SMB1 doesn't address them as a couple, nor does SMB2, 3, or World. I think the first time they show the slightest bit of romance between them was the All-Stars remake of Super Mario Bros. Trying to argue that Wonder Woman is not defined by gender, or is no more or less so than Snake or Mario, is very silly. Many, MANY of her stories have to do with her gender specifically. There have even been some super ham-fisted comics recently about feminism told through her.

 

[Shiggy]

Uh, Mario and Snake DON'T need to be men. They simply are. Link doesn't NEED to be a man, he just is. The notion that any of these characters are defined by gender is a notion that invents story elements. Snake could have just as easily been a woman, considering how The Boss is arguably just as good a soldier as Snake (if not better). In Mario's case, if Mario was a girl named Maria, we wouldn't see any issues. SMB1 doesn't address them as a couple, nor does SMB2, 3, or World. I think the first time they show the slightest bit of romance between them was the All-Stars remake of Super Mario Bros. Trying to argue that Wonder Woman is not defined by gender, or is no more or less so than Snake or Mario, is very silly. Many, MANY of her stories have to do with her gender specifically. There have even been some super ham-fisted comics recently about feminism told through her.

You can always change the outer appearance or gender of any character and make a few small adjustments - every character is replaceable when it comes to that. Characters, just as humans, are defined by that only on the surface. Any different thinking is rather ignorant and pretty backwards.

 

[A Link to the Past]

You can always change the outer appearance or gender of any character and make a few small adjustments - every character is replaceable when it comes to that. Characters, just as humans, are defined by that only on the surface.

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an extra layer of justification in order to make Mario into a girl than it does for Link.

Link is not defined by gender, Mario is not defined by gender. Wonder Woman is defined by gender, Samus is (to a greater degree than Link or Mario)
defined by gender.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Uh, Mario and Snake DON'T need to be men. They simply are. Link doesn't NEED to be a man, he just is. The notion that any of these characters are defined by gender is a notion that invents story elements. Snake could have just as easily been a woman, considering how The Boss is arguably just as good a soldier as Snake (if not better). In Mario's case, if Mario was a girl named Maria, we wouldn't see any issues. SMB1 doesn't address them as a couple, nor does SMB2, 3, or World. I think the first time they show the slightest bit of romance between them was the All-Stars remake of Super Mario Bros. Trying to argue that Wonder Woman is not defined by gender, or is no more or less so than Snake or Mario, is very silly. Many, MANY of her stories have to do with her gender specifically. There have even been some super ham-fisted comics recently about feminism told through her.

I didn't imply that. I said that her gender matters, but so to does Link's, Mario's, and Snake's. If a character is designed to be male or female or trans, then their gender matters. Link was designed as a male, he was influenced by Peter Pan and Miyamotos childhood, just as Mario was influenced by their landlord and Popeye, neither of these characters were made one gender over the other because of a sheer cosmic fluke or because "why not?" They were designed, and as is often the case, the gender was decided for a design reason.

That makes their, and any other characters gender, relevant. We don't need to delve into the lore to find some quote or passage to prove this.

Okay, but that doesn't change the fact that there is an extra layer of justification in order to make Mario into a girl than it does for Link.

Link is not defined by gender, Mario is not defined by gender. Wonder Woman is defined by gender, Samus is (to a greater degree than Link or Mario)
defined by gender.

In what way?

 

[A Link to the Past]

If Wonder Woman was a man, it would explicitly:

1. Require a rewrite to address the gender change due to the density of feminism concepts, or

2. Keep it that way, but kind of make it seem really confusing why Wonder Man is so focused on feminism and women's rights

EDIT: In what way? One of the most famous elements of Samus' character is the fact that she is a woman, with every game (nearly every game) having her de-suit at the end. More and more lately, games have made a point of emphasizing her sexuality and femininity, with Sakamoto talking about her like his virtual wife. And for better or worse, her character is meant to have an arc as a mother (in this case, worse), with Metroid: Other M having the least subtle allusions to motherhood I've ever seen in a video game.

 

[Mango The Magician]

I'll agree on the "gender reveal" side of things, even though it was only really relevant to the first game. For the "motherly" side of things though, I don't really see why a plot like that would require a female character. In fact I feel like I've seen it done with male characters before.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Other M

MOther

Can that story have had a guy? Yeah

Did they blatantly make a point about it being about motherhood instead of parenthood? Yep

 

[SolidSnakex]

Uh, Mario and Snake DON'T need to be men. They simply are. Link doesn't NEED to be a man, he just is. The notion that any of these characters are defined by gender is a notion that invents story elements. Snake could have just as easily been a woman, considering how The Boss is arguably just as good a soldier as Snake (if not better). In Mario's case, if Mario was a girl named Maria, we wouldn't see any issues. SMB1 doesn't address them as a couple, nor does SMB2, 3, or World. I think the first time they show the slightest bit of romance between them was the All-Stars remake of Super Mario Bros. Trying to argue that Wonder Woman is not defined by gender, or is no more or less so than Snake or Mario, is very silly. Many, MANY of her stories have to do with her gender specifically. There have even been some super ham-fisted comics recently about feminism told through her.

Solid Snake was one of numerous experiments to create an exact clone of Big Boss, who obviously was male. So i'm not sure where you argument comes from in terms of he could've easily been a woman when the goal of his creation was to create an exact clone of another man (same for Liquid and Solidus).

 

[A Link to the Past]

Solid Snake was one of numerous experiments to create an exact clone of Big Boss, who obviously was male. So i'm not sure where you argument comes from in terms of he could've easily been a woman when the goal of his creation was to create an exact clone of another man (same for Liquid and Solidus).

Even in that point, that's just an extension of it. He's not a man because he needed to be a man, he's a man just because of how it came out. All that needs to be said at that point is that the reason why Big Boss is a man is "just because"

 

[KingBroly]

Other M

MOther

Can that story have had a guy? Yeah

Did they blatantly make a point about it being about motherhood instead of parenthood? Yep

That was more Yoshio Sakamoto thinking he was cleverer than anyone else, not realizing how much of a dumbass he is.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Good. Don't let the Internet control your creative freedom and do exactly as you want as a creator and visionary at Nintendo. Fuck Twitter and the Internets constant bitching and nagging and do what you want Miyamoto-San.

* Unless it's a sequel to Wii Music or another tablet-controlled Star Fox, in which case you're literally George Lucas.


Jokes aside, while it's not aimed at you since I agree Miyamoto should do what he wants and the not-so-subtle accusations him and Aunoma are sexists for Link still being a guy are gross... It does seem as a whole Nintendo fans flip flop between him having the right to his creative freedom and him being an out of touch blockade to younger developers at Nintendo.

Spoiler

the latter mentality is totally right in regards to paper mario goddamn

 

[Shaanyboi]

* Unless it's a sequel to Wii Music or another tablet-controlled Star Fox, in which case you're literally George Lucas.


Jokes aside, while it's not aimed at you since I agree Miyamoto should do what he wants and the not-so-subtle accusations him and Aunoma are sexists for Link still being a guy are gross... It does seem as a whole Nintendo fans flip flop between him having the right to his creative freedom and him being an out of touch blockade to younger developers at Nintendo.

Spoiler

the latter mentality is totally right in regards to paper mario goddamn

Glad you didn't forget the disappointment of Sticker Star!

 

[SolidSnakex]

Even in that point, that's just an extension of it. He's not a man because he needed to be a man, he's a man just because of how it came out. All that needs to be said at that point is that the reason why Big Boss is a man is "just because"

They're all male to match of who ultimately inspired their creation in the first place, Snake Plissken. Just as Jonathan and Ed from Policenauts are blatant nods to Riggs and Murtaugh from Lethal Weapon.

You might not like that they're male because that's the gender of the characters that inspired them, but that's certainly the case with their creation. So they aren't male "just because". Given that Kojima's currenyl unbelievably obsessed with Mad Max: Fury Road, I wouldn't be surprised if Death Stranding had a character inspired by Furiosa. In which case that character would obviously be female.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Glad you didn't forget the disappointment of Sticker Star!

Yeah I mean, are people allowed to be disappointed with how things turned out with Link after having their hopes raised with an ultimately bogus rumor (though I guess it may've been true at one point in development going off interviews)? Similarly while I'm totally fine if instead we just wind up with a Sheik* spin-off series, if you look up my posts in earlier 'could Link be a girl' threads, I was completely on board to the idea.

I just think quite a bit of the backlash towards the decision to not make a change when as recently as A Link Between Worlds Link being a guy only was a non-issue seems to be unfairly attributing malice to the developer's intentions. By comparison bitching about his attitude towards Splatoon being a new IP or his weird ideas for what Paper Mario should be don't have the more damaging implications of oh he's a secret sexist. People are free to complain, but given the context of the series and what Nintendo have/haven't done, I think some people here need to pull back their 'critique' of the dude's behind Zelda a bit.



*Or hell a proper Wind Waker sequel with Tetra. If we're talking about sexism in Zelda, Tetra getting locked in a basement for the 2nd half of WW and her literally being a damsel in distress right off the bat in Phantom Hourglass were pretty pathetic treatments of the character after how well they built her up for most of Wind Waker. I'd argue she's more interesting than Sheik, especially since she's the 'real' identity, not her Zelda alter-ego.

 

[Llyrwenne]

My point was that it's not an "us vs. them" argument and that we all need to accept that there are different viewpoints. Somehow, the general feeling among fans who want this change to happen is that Miyamoto is not allowed to have an opinion on the matter and just needs to listen to what the assumed majority wants. I disagree with that, as well as with the sentiment that anyone needs to justify their stance on the matter

I don’t know who here is saying that Miyamoto is not allowed to have an opinion or ‘just needs to listen’, but it certainly isn’t me. I don’t think you should have to clarify your stance on the matter if you don’t want to - as I have said multiple times now -, but if you do clarify your stance, you should be aware that you invite discussion and it is not unfair for people to point out flaws in your reasoning. Free speech is great, but there should be no such thing as consequence-free speech. So disagree all you want, but if you make a point of justifying your opinions against others or dismissing other people’s opinions, don’t be surprised to have people call you out on what you say.

In the end, I don't really care so long as it's not just guys in suits forcing devs to do it just so they can talk about how progressive they are in interviews. If this is just being done to appease a group and not because it's something that the truly want to do, what do you think's gonna happen if the sales or quality of the game are affected negatively? If the suits blame it on the change, they're going to become adverse to ever trying it again, meaning that it could end up backfiring. That's why it concerns me, and that's why I think it should all just be left up to the people making the game. Fans should let their opinions and desires be heard, but I don't think it's fair to call Miyamoto sexist or say that he's detrimental to the progress of the entire industry over this. It's not like this is the only IP he's ever worked on. I also think the the idea that a female Link would cause a major change in the industry is kinda silly. Something like GTA would have a bigger impact IMO, and makes a lot more sense to boot.

Speaking more generally about diversity issues here; this is all ignoring the fact that we are in this situation because of people in suits. People in suits did not want Naughty Dog to put Ellie on the cover of the Last of Us. Various publishers telling DontNod that they should change the Life is Strange protagonists to men. DontNod being told by some publishers that they would not pick up Remember Me simply because the protagonist was a woman. There are more stories like that. On a related note; look at Insomniac’s Fuse. People in suits are already dictating certain creative decisions. And again, this ‘pandering’ / ‘appeasing to a certain group’ has been discussed many times in the other thread. I’ll copypaste what I said there as I feel it is relevant here ( note: this was not a direct reply to you and thus some parts of it might not apply to you specifically );

I am honestly quite confused by this stance ( and the variations of it that have already been discussed ). It does not ‘depend on who you ask’, there is a statistically observable huge gap in representation. What do you suggest people do? Discussing the topic is apparently in itself the issue to you, which I find puzzling. Equality absolutely does require discussion and ‘yelling’. Gay marriage legalisation in the US did not happen through inaction, nor did any number of other pushes for equality. Though I am confused as to what you are referring to with that in this discussion specifically… I do not think people here are ‘yelling at developers / publishers’ to make them do stuff; we are discussing the easily provable point that female representation is abysmal and through that discussion want to make people more aware of this - and yes that indeed does include those ‘in charge’. The percentages we are discussing are absolutely indicative of a problem ( not sure why you use the term ‘foul play’ here? ). That problem being caused by existing assumptions / existing constructs might be true, but in no way does that somehow negate the problem or make it so that it should not be discussed. It is precisely the reason why it should be discussed. Changes don’t happen through everyone staying silent and waiting it out.

Your fear seems to be that developers will simply ‘shove in’ characters ( which has also been discussed here numerous times ) to please the loudest voices and that will be that. I say that completely ignores reality. There may be developers / publishers who might see it that way, but as representation grows ( either through genuine interest or this cynical ‘crowdpleasing’ ) and it is - for example - proven that a female player character does not meaningfully negatively impact sales, more and more developers / publishers will start taking things seriously and more and more of them will start hiring female writers. Loud voices might initially lead to ‘false’ change, but through ‘false’ change usually comes some form of real change. Though in general I already disagree with your assessment of how discussion on the issue will be reacted to anyway.

And I am not calling Miyamoto sexist or saying he is detrimental to the entire industry. This femLink / female player character in Zelda discussion specifically is also not about pushing for a larger change in the industry. It is purely about Zelda and why people feel or don’t feel like this franchise specifically has everything going for it to support a female character, and how for a lot of people their responses have been less than satisfactory. I feel like we’re slowly mashing two different discussions together here.

Then again, I'm also a crazy person who believes that gaming industry feminists should be encouraging women to take charge of changing the industry themselves instead of yelling at people to change their ways, so maybe I'm just weird with my ideals in feminism. I've also become increasingly annoyed with how this is the only thing most of GAF cares about just because they were hyped over this rumor.

To pull the camera out a bit from the Link discussion to the overall representation discussion; discussing the issue is not ‘yelling at people’. Discussing the issue is the first step in making more people aware that the issue exists and the first step in pushing for actual change. ‘They should take charge of the industry themselves’ is again a point that has been discussed to death in the 3% thread.

Also, this discussion did not suddenly spring forth from a random rumour this E3. If that is how you perceive this discussion ( people being angry at a rumour not turning out true ), then I would suggest you read up on why this is an issue for some people, why it is being discussed right now specifically, and how this has existed way before the recent rumours. I’ll also try to do a megapost on that in this thread later in the day because I believe you are not the only one.

All that this says is that most Zelda fans aren't sexist and just want to play Zelda games. You'd see a similar result for just about any loved IP.

I have not said Zelda fans are sexist.

P.S. : I will reply to all others who replied to me regarding the ZeldaInformer poll too, don’t worry. I just have a busy day today so it might take a while.

 

[royox]

Except that Link or rather Links don't have any particular characteristics or any type development that a character like Wonder Woman does.
Also, Wonder Woman being a man completely undercuts that character unlike the avatar that is Link.

Link hasn't been an avatar since WW.

In every Main Line Zelda game after Majora's Mask Link has it's own personality and feelings. The "but Link is just an avatar" meme has to end.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Link hasn't been an avatar since WW.

In every Main Line Zelda game after Majora's Mask Link has it's own personality and feelings. The "but Link is just an avatar" meme has to end.

It will end when it stops being true.
For example, what type of personality does Skyward Sword Link have besides the standard "Hero" qualities?

 

[nightside]

If Wonder Woman was a man, it would explicitly:

1. Require a rewrite to address the gender change due to the density of feminism concepts, or

2. Keep it that way, but kind of make it seem really confusing why Wonder Man is so focused on feminism and women's rights

EDIT: In what way? One of the most famous elements of Samus' character is the fact that she is a woman, with every game (nearly every game) having her de-suit at the end. More and more lately, games have made a point of emphasizing her sexuality and femininity, with Sakamoto talking about her like his virtual wife. And for better or worse, her character is meant to have an arc as a mother (in this case, worse), with Metroid: Other M having the least subtle allusions to motherhood I've ever seen in a video game.

Never liked how Samus is portrayed in Other M.

 

[royox]

It will end when it stops being true.
For example, what type of personality does Skyward Sword Link have besides the standard "Hero" qualities?

He's in love with Zelda. He has a lot of moments when he's angry, worried, anxious or suffering.

Sorry but if the character you are playing can show these kind of emotions with suck intensity it stops being just an "avatar".

Or said in another way: If the character I play has it's own emotions and feelings it stops being an "avatar".

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Yeah I mean, are people allowed to be disappointed with how things turned out with Link after having their hopes raised with an ultimately bogus rumor (though I guess it may've been true at one point in development going off interviews)? Similarly while I'm totally fine if instead we just wind up with a Sheik* spin-off series, if you look up my posts in earlier 'could Link be a girl' threads, I was completely on board to the idea.

I just think quite a bit of the backlash towards the decision to not make a change when as recently as A Link Between Worlds Link being a guy only was a non-issue seems to be unfairly attributing malice to the developer's intentions. By comparison bitching about his attitude towards Splatoon being a new IP or his weird ideas for what Paper Mario should be don't have the more damaging implications of oh he's a secret sexist. People are free to complain, but given the context of the series and what Nintendo have/haven't done, I think some people here need to pull back their 'critique' of the dude's behind Zelda a bit.



*Or hell a proper Wind Waker sequel with Tetra. If we're talking about sexism in Zelda, Tetra getting locked in a basement for the 2nd half of WW and her literally being a damsel in distress right off the bat in Phantom Hourglass were pretty pathetic treatments of the character after how well they built her up for most of Wind Waker. I'd argue she's more interesting than Sheik, especially since she's the 'real' identity, not her Zelda alter-ego.

There's definitely disappointment over the option for a girl Link or playable Zelda.

The outright "backlash" is coming after another round of poor reasoning for the decisions made, similar to the direction Paper Mario is going, similar to recent Metroid releases, similar to aspects of Star Fox's controls which in turn were the result of the Wii U's gamepad, and the Wii U overall, and same with the "going after the family market," and low-power talk surrounding the NX. When there are missteps or missed opportunities among Nintendo's decisions, and the reasoning given sounds suspect/dismissive, that's where the frustration and backlash comes from. When there's reason to believe the same problems will happen all over again and that the ones responsible don't acknowledge poor reception of their decisions deftly, that's when you see this response.

everything Aonuma said about it was nonsense (which might have been something lost in translation, but most everything else said about the game makes sense), and the only straight answer given is a flat "that's just the way it is," answer that also shuts down possibility of Zelda getting a lead role in the series.

When the creators' reasoning to decide against the female role of their series being expanded because they seemingly couldn't think of what the lead male character would do while she's playable, the implications of sexism are brought upon themselves. The implication that girls can't be the heroes in this series is just as bad.

Link hasn't been an avatar since WW.

In every Main Line Zelda game after Majora's Mask Link has it's own personality and feelings. The "but Link is just an avatar" meme has to end.

Then the creators need to drop the pretense of "Link is meant to be the connection between the player and the game," something Aonuma's said at least as recently as TP, and iirc has said something along those llike news in regard to Zelda U (before it was BotW).

And that personality hasn't been defined by that character's gender. There's nothing about how Link has been characterized that requires every future LAnd no to have the same appearance and gender. Link always being reborn as a boy is entirely up to what the creators want, not because of the fluid story.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

It's also full of people claiming to want representation and a playable female all while throwing their arms in the air and drawing lines in the sand over nonsensical stuff like whether or not it'll be a "real" game and how a "playable Zelda wouldn't work cause reasons." They straight up just said that they'll, probably, making a game starring Sheik, why is that not enough? Why does it have to be Link? Why can you not compromise?

Gonna throw my hat in the ring with this: Sheik is not only not enough, but it's also partially insulting. Sheik as a character is a woman disguised as a man to hide from Ganondorf, that's what they were designed as, and since 1998 there's been a debate whether Sheik is male or female as the alter ego Zelda created was male to hide her real identity. If we're going to consider a female protagonist for a Zelda game, why not Zelda herself? Why go for the male alter ego she created for herself? "Because what would Link do?"

Link hasn't been an avatar since WW.

In every Main Line Zelda game after Majora's Mask Link has it's own personality and feelings. The "but Link is just an avatar" meme has to end.

Then tell Aonuma to stop tip toeing around the issue. He constantly talks about Link as a connection to the player, and saying things like, " Link's relationship with the player would be ruined if he talks", as if the very act of Link talking for himself is a bad thing.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

He's in love with Zelda. He has a lot of moments when he's angry, worried, anxious or suffering.

Sorry but if the character you are playing can show these kind of emotions with suck intensity it stops being just an "avatar".

Or said in another way: If the character I play has it's own emotions and feelings it stops being an "avatar".

I don't understand this reply. I talked about personality not emotions. Especially, ones that are so basic. Link plays the the part for whatever Nintendo wants that scene to convey. That's the definition of a "avatar" to me. Also, your really reaching with that "in love with Zelda" thing.

 

[WrenchNinja]

Then the creators need to drop the pretense of "Link is meant to be the connection between the player and the game," something Aonuma's said at least as recently as TP, and iirc has said something along those llike news in regard to Zelda U (before it was BotW).

And that personality hasn't been defined by that character's gender. There's nothing about how Link has been characterized that requires every future LAnd no to have the same appearance and gender. Link always being reborn as a boy is entirely up to what the creators want, not because of the fluid story.

He brought it up even now in the voice acting article

http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/21/11...d-is-getting-voice-acting-and-sci-fi-elements

"However, Aonuma reiterated that the series’ protagonist, Link, will be remaining voiceless for the foreseeable future.

"If Link said something the user doesn’t agree with, that relationship between the user and Link would be lost," said Aonuma. "That’s why I chose not to go with that."

Link is somehow an avatar to shut down voice acting talk and not an avatar to shut down female playable character talk. It's really hilarious

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

He brought it up even now in the voice acting article

http://www.polygon.com/2016/6/21/11...d-is-getting-voice-acting-and-sci-fi-elements

"However, Aonuma reiterated that the series’ protagonist, Link, will be remaining voiceless for the foreseeable future.

"If Link said something the user doesn’t agree with, that relationship between the user and Link would be lost," said Aonuma. "That’s why I chose not to go with that."

Link is somehow an avatar to shut down voice acting talk and not an avatar to shut down female playable character talk. It's really hilarious

Link is in character limbo, he is and isn't an avatar depending on what's convenient at the moment. It's getting ridiculous.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Link as a "character" is maybe one step above your character in a mmo tbh.

 

[royox]

I don't understand this reply. I talked about personality not emotions. Especially, ones that are so basic. Link plays the the part for whatever Nintendo wants that scene to convey. That's the definition of a "avatar" to me. Also, your really reaching with that "in love with Zelda" thing.

An avatar has no feelings.
Link has it's own feelings.

What's so hard to understand?

 

[ChosenPredator]

Good. Don't let the Internet control your creative freedom and do exactly as you want as a creator and visionary at Nintendo. Fuck Twitter and the Internets constant bitching and nagging and do what you want Miyamoto-San.

I agree with this as I think if he does bend there is going to be non stop requesting to change more things, UNLESS the devs have some sort of fantastic idea that would
be incredible, they should just continue doing whats been working otherwise.

or you know just make a more defined game starring Zelda, shes a character that really doesn't get to much love.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

When the creators' reasoning to decide against the female role of their series being expanded because they seemingly couldn't think of what the lead male character would do while she's playable, the implications of sexism are brought upon themselves. The implication that girls can't be the heroes in this series is just as bad.

Wasn't that only in the context of mainline Zelda games where you control Link they don't see Zelda being playable? That doesn't really rule out other playable girls (you arguably play as Midna more than Wolf Link in Twilight Princess) or a spin-off series as Sheik that they've repeated alluded to in multiple interviews now.

The 'Zelda will have to be kidnapped' comment while annoying seems to revolve around the same rules dictating Ganondorf has to be the main villain and Link the hero in mainline Zelda games. They're needlessly wrapped up in tradition (especially weird given BotW's emphasis on bucking the previous game's trends), but it's not really steeped in sexism. Obviously nothing remotely intentional, at least.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

An avatar has no feelings.
Link has it's own feelings.

What's so hard to understand?

So does the main character in Fallout, and yet they're an avatar.

Sheik in Hyrule Warriors is far more feminine than in OOT that it's not hard to identify as simply a woman with a head covering, not a woman trying to pass herself off as a man. I agree that wasn't the case with OOT, while Smash 4 Sheik ambiguously lies somewhere in the middle. Using HW Sheik as a cue and adding further design tweaks, this can be a great and unmistakable female character. I would keep an open mind to the possibilities open because I don't think Sheik in her own game would revert to the man-like 20-year-old design.

I would keep an open mind to such a game, I'm just saying it's slightly insulting to suggest Sheik over actual Zelda as the female main protagonist for a game considering the history of who Sheik is. Hyrule Warriors Sheik is a good character to build on, but I'm not so sure if Nintendo would follow from that design.

 

[Mega]

Gonna throw my hat in the ring with this: Sheik is not only not enough, but it's also partially insulting. Sheik as a character is a woman disguised as a man to hide from Ganondorf, that's what they were designed as, and since 1998 there's been a debate whether Sheik is male or female as the alter ego Zelda created was male to hide her real identity. If we're going to consider a female protagonist for a Zelda game, why not Zelda herself? Why go for the male alter ego she created for herself? "Because what would Link do?"

Sheik in Hyrule Warriors is far more feminine than in OOT that it's not hard to identify as simply a woman with a head covering, not a woman trying to pass herself off as a man. I agree that wasn't the case with OOT, while Smash 4 Sheik ambiguously lies somewhere in the middle. Using HW Sheik as a cue and adding further design tweaks, this can be a great and unmistakably female character. I would keep an open mind to the possibilities because I don't think Sheik in her own game would revert to the man-like 20-year-old design.

 

[royox]

So does the main character in Fallout, and yet they're an avatar.

So does Shepard in Mass Effect. Those are RPG games and you choose what you want that character to feel/think 99% of the times and 1% are mandatory cutscenes.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

So does Shepard in Mass Effect. Those are RPG games and you choose what you want that character to feel/think 99% of the times and 1% are mandatory cutscenes.

I was more or less talking about Fallout 4's main character really, you basically have no choice in how they feel, but if we want a better example, Saint's Row's main character.

 

[Taruranto]

Gonna throw my hat in the ring with this: Sheik is not only not enough, but it's also partially insulting. Sheik as a character is a woman disguised as a man to hide from Ganondorf, that's what they were designed as, and since 1998 there's been a debate whether Sheik is male or female as the alter ego Zelda created was male to hide her real identity. If we're going to consider a female protagonist for a Zelda game, why not Zelda herself? Why go for the male alter ego she created for herself? "Because what would Link do?"

Because she's the Princess of Hyrule, Sheik is the first thought people have because 1) It's an established "character" 2) it allows Zelda to roam free without having write extensive dialogs explaining why the Princess is going adventuring.

 

[royox]

Why go for the male alter ego she created for herself? "Because what would Link do?"

Because Zelda has the Triforce of wisdom and Ganon/dorf is chasing her for that. Sheik is her way to do things and "keep zelda hidding".

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Wasn't that only in the context of mainline Zelda games where you control Link they don't see Zelda being playable? That doesn't really rule out other playable girls (you arguably play as Midna more than Wolf Link in Twilight Princess) or a spin-off series as Sheik that they've repeated alluded to in multiple interviews now.

The 'Zelda will have to be kidnapped' comment while annoying seems to revolve around the same rules dictating Ganondorf has to be the main villain and Link the hero in mainline Zelda games. They're needlessly wrapped up in tradition (especially weird given BotW's emphasis on bucking the previous game's trends), but it's not really steeped in sexism. Obviously nothing remotely intentional, at least.

Nothing they've said 100% rules out or guarantees anything, but it certainly strongly suggests there won't be any playable girl characters in the main series. I also have to acknowledge what was said above about Sheik being the only possible spinoff even mentioned — the only female character they're openly considering giving a spinoff is one disguised as a man, as if they need that persona to justify action.

And using a series' lore to justify doing something that's rote and lame (not necessarily just The Legend of Zelda's common "damsel in distress" trope) is ... lame. Ultimately, the developers decide to do what's fun, or what makes the game better. When the game's world is completely fictional and made-up, there's little keeping them from doing whatever they want — if they make Zelda a damsel in distress again, it's not because the lore demands it. It's because they decided to do so.

About it being unintentional: Whether something that's sexist is done so intentionally or inadvertently is still sexist. And the notionthat a girl outright can't star in the series is the real kicker. They can't say they want the hero to always be a boy without also saying they don't want the hero to ever be a girl — avoiding saying the latter out loud doesn't obfuscate that sentiment. It's still there, clear as day.

Sheik in Hyrule Warriors is far more feminine than in OOT that it's not hard to identify as simply a woman with a head covering, not a woman trying to pass herself off as a man. I agree that wasn't the case with OOT, while Smash 4 Sheik ambiguously lies somewhere in the middle. Using HW Sheik as a cue and adding further design tweaks, this can be a great and unmistakably female character. I would keep an open mind to the possibilities because I don't think Sheik in her own game would revert to the man-like 20-year-old design.

What about Sheik in SSB: Brawl compared to Sheik in SSB4?

So does Shepard in Mass Effect. Those are RPG games and you choose what you want that character to feel/think 99% of the times and 1% are mandatory cutscenes.

It's definitely a different situation from what you think.

Because she's the Princess of Hyrule, Sheik is the first thought people have because 1) It's an established "character" 2) it allows Zelda to roam free without having write extensive dialogs explaining why the Princess is going adventuring.

Because Zelda has the Triforce of wisdom and Ganon/dorf is chasing her for that. Sheik is her way to do things and "keep zelda hidding".

In OoT, sure. Why does a Zelda game have to take place during that timeframe? A spinoff could be a new version of Zelda entirely.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Because she's the Princess of Hyrule, Sheik is the first thought people have because 1) It's an established "character" 2) it allows Zelda to roam free without having write extensive dialogs explaining why the Princess is going adventuring.

Zelda is already established, heavily so. Why can't they have Zelda simply cut her hair and dress differently like a commoner to go out in an adventure? Why can't she be a normal everyday person is a post apocalyptic world ala Breath of the Wild's Hyrule where the Royal Family is likely disbanded? Why can't we have Tetra, who's a Zelda that's a tan skin pirate but still identifiably female. Why does it have to be the male alter ego?

 

[Kurdel]

Good. Don't let the Internet control your creative freedom and do exactly as you want as a creator and visionary at Nintendo. Fuck Twitter and the Internets constant bitching and nagging and do what you want Miyamoto-San.

That ls how we got Peach in Super Mario World, Miyamoto is much more reasonable than internet people who venerate him like you do would believe.

 

[Village]

Zelda is already established, heavily so. Why can't they have Zelda simply cut her hair and dress differently like a commoner to go out in an adventure? Why can't we have Tetra, who's a Zelda that's a tan skin pirate but still identifiably female. Why does it have to be the male alter ego?

..male alter ego?

Sheik is zelda so viewed sheik as a girl.

 

[martino]

need spin of with

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

..male alter ego?

Sheik is zelda so viewed sheik as a girl.

Sheik in Ocarina of Time, the origin of the character, was presented as male in game. He is Zelda's male alter ego solely created to hide away from Ganondorf. It's a lot more complicated than Sheik = Zelda therefore they're female. Hyrule Warriors' Sheik is an exception however, as I believe she was always presented as female.

 

[Taruranto]

Zelda is already established, heavily so. Why can't they have Zelda simply cut her hair and dress differently like a commoner to go out in an adventure? Why can't she be a normal everyday person is a post apocalyptic world ala Breath of the Wild's Hyrule where the Royal Family is likely disbanded? Why can't we have Tetra, who's a Zelda that's a tan skin pirate but still identifiably female. Why does it have to be the male alter ego?

Well, sure, you can. There is no reason for example why ALTTP Zelda couldn't go adventuring, for example.

I was just pointing out there is no sexist conspiracy to why people often think of Sheik.

 

[Kurdel]

Sheik in Ocarina of Time, the origin of the character, was presented as male in game. He is Zelda's male alter ego solely created to hide away from Ganondorf. It's a lot more complicated than Sheik = Zelda therefore they're female.

Can you find the quote where she talks about hiding as a man, or is this jus some bullshit fan wish?

 

[Übermatik]

Anyone that expected otherwise is delusional.

 

[Village]

Sheik in Ocarina of Time, the origin of the character, was presented as male in game. He is Zelda's male alter ego solely created to hide away from Ganondorf. It's a lot more complicated than Sheik = Zelda therefore they're female. Hyrule Warriors' Sheik is an exception however, as I believe she was always presented as female.

I saw her as being androgynous

Does it actually say male or are you making that up

 

[btrboyev]

I wish people would step off the high horse and stop asking for a female link. The character has been male and will continue to be male. It's part of the story. Just accept it.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

Can you find the quote where she talks about hiding as a man, or is this jus some bullshit fan wish?

Her specifically saying it, no. Other characters referring to Sheik as male, yes. Ruto refered to him twice as a male.

"A young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice..."

"If you see Sheik, please give him my thanks, OK?"

Offical sources also said Sheik is male: "but in her place was the mysterious youth known as Sheik—the same boy who had appeared to Link when he was returned to the Temple of Time from the Sacred Realm." (Ocarina of Time Official Nintendo Player's Guide (Nintendo Power)

 

[Kurdel]

Her specifically saying it, no. Other characters referring to Sheik as male, yes. Ruto refered to him twice as a male.

"A young man named Sheik saved me from under the ice..."

"If you see Sheik, please give him my thanks, OK?"

Offical sources also said Sheik is male: "but in her place was the mysterious youth known as Sheik—the same boy who had appeared to Link when he was returned to the Temple of Time from the Sacred Realm." (Ocarina of Time Official Nintendo Player's Guide (Nintendo Power)

Did you finish Oot?

Shiek is Zelda in disguise, of course people will talk about Sheik in male pronouns to not out her.

You think she grows dick and balls everytime instead of just cross dessing? In case Ganon peeks in her tights?

 

[Boney]

I'm actually surprised people are so dismissive of gender as a character trait. While gender doesn't define you, it'll give you a different perspective based on the cultural norms associated to each gender. Sadly this is based on our heavily patriarchal society that has women in positions of oppression and activism.

Gender isn't an internal characteristic, but it's put forward and the response to it is later internalized. Nobody should be shocked that Nintendo adheres to the damsel in distress trope, as it in the most destilled way, tells a story of two loved ones reuniting that has universal appeal. Women are obviously handed the short end of the stick by having a representation that leaves them in passive roles (not necessarily weak), and it reproduces gender reality in a way most of us would like it to go in the opposite direction.

Could the damsel in distress trope work by changing any of the characters gender, be a captured lord, a female hero or both? Absolutely. But I'm not as convinced that the viewer assimilation and interpretation of the text is the same because it's being read by a specific cultural paradigm. I would like stuff like these happen in numerous media and titles, both subverting franchises and by being progressive with new creations, since the positive message it entails is very important. But Nintendo both as a conservative company, but more importantly, as a minimalist company, attributes a lot of value to the universal understanding of gender roles to visually transmit information of the situation.

I'm dissapointed Nintendo isn't more progressive about these matters, but I'm not getting upset because a Japanese company isn't riding the progressive wave western countries are having. I'm not getting upset at ridiculous interview answers either as they are left hook questions that are translated. I will get upset if they send out a press release that contained such contrived reasons because that would reflect on the company as a whole as structurally regressive.