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[Two Words]

I don't know why Nintendo has continuously handled this point so poorly. It's pretty easy to say that "Link is not simply an avatar to us at Nintendo. He has defined characteristics that we always hold. We are considering introducing new female characters to be leads in their own games, but Link will always be Link." Miyamoto's response is the first like it. All of the "well you see, the lore just doesn't allow this" answers were always laughably bad.

 

[Kurdel]

Yes, she used her emotions, but so did every enemy, it was the gimmick of that island they were on.

And she breathed through her skin.

All these convoluted reasons to why we should excuse this bullshit are ridiculous.

 

[Captain Europe]

Wait...really? All I ever heard was that Peach was the only one who used her emotions. That's way better than what I've heard.

Yeah I have the game, they are on vibe island(I think it was called this), where emotions run wild.

And she breathed through her skin.

All these convoluted reasons to why we should excuse this bullshit are ridiculous.

I can understand why it can be offensive to some, but that's totally different. That's an excuse to have a character be naked for no reason, the emotions in this game were actual moves incorporated in the gameplay.

 

[orthodoxy1095]

And she breathed through her skin.

All these convoluted reasons to why we should excuse this bullshit are ridiculous.

Oh yeah, those two characters are totally equivalent.

Way to make your argument stronger.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Yeah I have the game, they are on vibe island(I think it was called this), where emotions run wild.

Huh, might pick it up at Gamexchange. I loved playing as Peach in 3DW, was practically the only way I played that game till I got the last character, and the Mario Princesses in general are awesome characters. Kinda wish Zelda could get some more limelight, maybe in a spinoff or something.

 

[Kurdel]

I can understand why it can be offensive to some, but that's totally different. That's an excuse to have a character be naked for no reason, the emotions in this game were actual moves incorporated in the gameplay.

I mean, how long do you imagine that production meeting being?

"So a Princess Peach game"
"She is woman, so let's make her emotions her power"

 

[Captain Europe]

I don't know why Nintendo has continuously handled this point so poorly. It's pretty easy to say that "Link is not simply an avatar to us at Nintendo. He has defined characteristics that we always hold. We are considering introducing new female characters to be leads in their own games, but Link will always be Link." Miyamoto's response is the first like it. All of the "well you see, the lore just doesn't allow this" answers were always laughably bad.

Link isn't always Link, he could be Jennifer Lopez in someone's game

That's another one of the reasons why Link is in this grey area between being an avatar and an actual character. If Nintendo wants to make him more of an actual character, they should remove the naming, which I assume they're doing in BotW.

 

[lwilliams3]

I find lore posts interesting but I don't really see the merit of using lore in this discussion to support or make a point. "My impression is", "Perhaps", "That may be due to", "from what I can see"; all words that show that this is you piecing together separate pieces of information and making assumptions. While I find theorizing like this interesting, it does not make for a great line of discussion. These are not things directly stated in the lore. And yes, I don't feel it really makes the statement any better if this were indeed his true intention.

Similarly - and more generally - I don't think using lore to support or make a point against femLink / female player character is much productive either. The Zelda lore has been fairly fluid, from them releasing a simple timeline, to them denying there is a timeline or intended structure at all, to 'j/k, there is a timeline for real' and then adding lore to make some things fit. Besides that, I believe nothing currently in the lore specifically dictates that Link should be male or that the Hero cannot be female ( if I am wrong here, please correct me ). Now, you can pull together several statements and look at the games overall and then draw conclusion that 'this is what they mean', but that would again require some assumption. The lore does not seem particularly set in stone and Nintendo can pretty much remove or add anything if they so desire. Until they add to the lore by specifically clarifying this, I don't find lore by itself to be a compelling argument, be it for or against anything.

I did not use the game lore at all (which is not detailed and has a lot of holes in it ). I used the words I did because it is not possible for me (or anyone else) to know Aosuma and Miyamoto's exact rationale on their decisions. I did make a hypothesis on what it could be, and briefly gave evidence on why that could be the case.

The question I have is why Nintendo doesn't want "Princess Zelda" to fight? I gave my ideas on why. That is worth a discussion IMO. Perhaps someone else did it eariler in this thread, but I missed it.

Btw, thank you for editing your post. You gave me an impression that you didn't really read what I wrote.

 

[Captain Europe]

Huh, might pick it up at Gamexchange. I loved playing as Peach in 3DW, was practically the only way I played that game till I got the last character, and the Mario Princesses in general are awesome characters. Kinda wish Zelda could get some more limelight, maybe in a spinoff or something.

Both Peach and Zelda should be playable in mainline games, I see no reason for this kidnapping nonsense anymore, it's boring. And yeah get the game! It reminded a lot of YI, it's probably easier(it's been a while), but it was challenging finding all the collectables.

I mean, how long do you imagine that production meeting being?

"So a Princess Peach game"
"She is woman, so let's make her emotions her power"

Yeah I can see where you're coming from, I did enjoy that they did something different instead of just a Mario game with the floating ability. But yeah there are plenty of other way to do this, I'd personally love a Princess Peach game based on SMB2, such a shame they never revisited that concept.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Link isn't always Link, he could be Jennifer Lopez in someone's game

That's another one of the reasons why Link is in this grey area between being an avatar and an actual character. If Nintendo wants to make him more of an actual character, they should remove the naming, which I assume they're doing in BotW.

They already did remove it in FS and FSA, so it's not like it's always in every game. Likewise, I don't know if this is true, but from what I've heard, TLoZ1 calls you Link regardless of what you put in, I wouldn't know as I've never named him anything other than "Link."

Both Peach and Zelda should be playable in mainline games, I see no reason for this kidnapping nonsense anymore, it's boring. And yeah get the game! It reminded a lot of YI, it's probably easier(it's been a while), but it was challenging finding all the collectables.

Peach already is, Zelda already was in ST. If they want to keep Link the main main star though then that's their call and there's nothing wrong with it. Plus it's not like Zelda is always kidnapped. It does unfortunately happen a lot, but it's not something that happens in all games.

Still, I think a "Legend of Link" spinoff series revolving around characters other than Link would be a way better idea than, "hey this time you play as Zelda." As you could get:

-A game starring Sheik
-A game starring a young Ganondorf facing a monster that threatens Geurdo Valley.
-A game starring Aryll trying to save her brother.
-A game starring Tetra.

and so much more. Either way, I fail to see why it has to be a mainline game, as the end result, a playable female character is attained regardless.

 

[MuchoMalo]

Edit: Never mind, I don't want to talk about this anymore.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Yeah I have the game, they are on vibe island(I think it was called this), where emotions run wild.



I can understand why it can be offensive to some, but that's totally different. That's an excuse to have a character be naked for no reason, the emotions in this game were actual moves incorporated in the gameplay.

Emotions being incorporated into gameplay, enemies, whatever, all of those things are a product of them saying "she's a woman, women are emotional, thus her game should be about emotions."

 

[R00bot]

I mean, how long do you imagine that production meeting being?

"So a Princess Peach game"
"She is woman, so let's make her emotions her power"

You definitely have a point, however you're getting angry over something very small that Nintendo definitely did not mean to do. Chances are they were simply looking for a reason to make this game play differently to the Mario games as it's all about gameplay for Nintendo. Emotions were definitely one of the least offensive choices for a moveset they could have had.

 

[……forgetit]

You definitely have a point, however you're getting angry over something very small that Nintendo definitely did not mean to do. Chances are they were simply looking for a reason to make this game play differently to the Mario games as it's all about gameplay for Nintendo. Emotions were definitely one of the least offensive choices for a moveset they could have had.

Well can we talk about the vibe scepter, that by itself is pretty weird.

 

[R00bot]

Well can we talk about the vibe scepter, that by itself is pretty weird.

I personally haven't played the game so I don't know what that is

 

[……forgetit]

I personally haven't played the game so I don't know what that is

If you're curious, google it.

 

[Captain Europe]

But Mario is very much self-aware that it's a trope and just doesn't care (and doesn't even always use the trope), while most Zelda games either don't have her captured until the end or not at all.

And the trope overstayed its welcome, tons of people want to play as Peach instead of having 2 Toads, that was beyond lame. I'm just hoping her role won't regress after SM3DW.

Emotions being incorporated into gameplay, enemies, whatever, all of those things are a product of them saying "she's a woman, women are emotional, thus her game should be about emotions."

Yeah, there's definitely stereotyping going on.

I personally haven't played the game so I don't know what that is

There's an obvious joke about a vibrator in the game XD.

 

[R00bot]

There's an obvious joke about a vibrator in the game XD.

Oh lawdy I was getting vibes telling me that's what it was from the name.

Spoiler

get it? Vibes?

 

[Zomba13]

I'd love a Zelda/Shiek game. It could be super cool. Throw in Impa, lots of Shiekah story points, backstory, their culture, collect Shiekah tools to help Zelda fight Ganondorf or Vaati or some new villain. Could even have some sort of Hyrule management system in there, Princess by day, Shiekah Warrior by night!

I'd much rather that than a female Link because I feel with a female Link you'll just get the same "character" of Link just with longer hair (maybe?) and a more feminine face (maybe?) and maybe some slight breasts (maybe?) and everything will be the same unless you also gender flip the others so we have a Ganondorfina and a Prince Zeldude. Zelda as the heroine woul dbe much better because you have more opportunities not only for new stuff but also to look at things in a different light, see what an NPC Link would be like, see a Link fail and have Zelda step up, see Ganon/dorf fear the Princess for a change. Have the Legend of Zelda actually be about Zelda's Legend.

 

[KingBroly]

They already did remove it in FS and FSA, so it's not like it's always in every game. Likewise, I don't know if this is true, but from what I've heard, TLoZ1 calls you Link regardless of what you put in, I wouldn't know as I've never named him anything other than "Link."

Peach already is, Zelda already was in ST. If they want to keep Link the main main star though then that's their call and there's nothing wrong with it. Plus it's not like Zelda is always kidnapped. It does unfortunately happen a lot, but it's not something that happens in all games.

Still, I think a "Legend of Link" spinoff series revolving around characters other than Link would be a way better idea than, "hey this time you play as Zelda." As you could get:

-A game starring Sheik
-A game starring a young Ganondorf facing a monster that threatens Geurdo Valley.
-A game starring Aryll trying to save her brother.
-A game starring Tetra.

and so much more. Either way, I fail to see why it has to be a mainline game, as the end result, a playable female character is attained regardless.

well...in BotW they're calling him Link by voice, so that's kinda different than 'insert your name here so you'll be called that in text throughout.'

 

[Mango The Magician]

I'd love a Zelda/Shiek game. It could be super cool. Throw in Impa, lots of Shiekah story points, backstory, their culture, collect Shiekah tools to help Zelda fight Ganondorf or Vaati or some new villain. Could even have some sort of Hyrule management system in there, Princess by day, Shiekah Warrior by night!

I'd much rather that than a female Link because I feel with a female Link you'll just get the same "character" of Link just with longer hair (maybe?) and a more feminine face (maybe?) and maybe some slight breasts (maybe?) and everything will be the same unless you also gender flip the others so we have a Ganondorfina and a Prince Zeldude. Zelda as the heroine woul dbe much better because you have more opportunities not only for new stuff but also to look at things in a different light, see what an NPC Link would be like, see a Link fail and have Zelda step up, see Ganon/dorf fear the Princess for a change. Have the Legend of Zelda actually be about Zelda's Legend.

I cannot explain just how much I want this.

well...in BotW they're calling him Link by voice, so that's kinda different than 'insert your name here so you'll be called that in text throughout.'

I know. Which leads me to believe that you can't name him. But in the case of FSA and FS there was never the option to name anything, neither Link nor your file, you just pick a file and start the game up with the intro monologue saying "Link" in the text. It's clearly not that important, if no one seems to have noticed this.

...putting another nail in the "avatar" debate.

 

[Loki]

Why is there such an outcry to have a long-established character change genders? It's silly imo. It's like asking to make Wonder Woman male, or to have a male Wonder Woman option. Reeks of over-sensitivity and pandering. No one is denying that it would be nice for more new IP's to have female leads, but this is an established character.

 

[othersteve]

Why is there such an outcry to have a long-established character change genders? It's silly imo. It's like asking to make Wonder Woman male, or to have a male Wonder Woman option. Reeks of over-sensitivity and pandering. No one is denying that it would be nice for more new IP's to have female leads, but this is an established character.

Precisely.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Why is there such an outcry to have a long-established character change genders? It's silly imo. It's like asking to make Wonder Woman male, or to have a male Wonder Woman option. Reeks of over-sensitivity and pandering. No one is denying that it would be nice for more new IP's to have female leads, but this is an established character.

Except that Link or rather Links don't have any particular characteristics or any type development that a character like Wonder Woman does.
Also, Wonder Woman being a man completely undercuts that character unlike the avatar that is Link.

 

[DangerMouse]

And that risk is overblown and propped up as an excuse here, 100 percent. An unnecessary cop out for no good reason. And it sounds like you realize that.

What's "wrong" with only supporting other, newer franchises is that the current leads behind one of the biggest franchises in gaming could — at the very least and without betraying any aspect of their franchise in any way — not actively oppose the concept "girl is the hero/saves the world." They could be an example for those other franchises. Could show that having the girl save the world and being the hero can be a given, not something that is radical or rebellious. They could be an example for the hand-wringing, apprehensive publishers out there that question and reject the "viability" and "sales projections" of games they publish with female leads.

It's asinine to support tradition on its own when there's no inherent benefit and when it stagnates output and success. That notion that it should always be a boy as the lead in this series (which never actually focuses on themes of boyhood/manhood and would be no lesser, merely different, for changing elements related to that non-existent focus) is in the same ballpark of saying the visuals should never have moved to 3D. Moving to 3D alienated people; I recall a GAF user saying their dad or uncle used to play old-school Zelda, but simply couldn't get into OoT, finding it to be aimless. But there's no denying the possibility added by moving to 3D. And 3D isn't comprehensively and inherently better than 2D, but there's no denying those new possibilities.

Well said.

And in further addition, Nintendo doesn't make anything else like Zelda so there is no other option from them in a game like it.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Except that Link or rather Links don't have any particular characteristics or any type development that a character like Wonder Woman does.
Also, Wonder Woman being a man completely undercuts that character unlike the avatar that is Link.

...an avatar that can't even be named. How quaint.

 

[Loki]

Except that Link or rather Links don't have any particular characteristics or any type development that a character like Wonder Woman does.
Also, Wonder Woman being a man completely undercuts that character unlike the avatar that is Link.

Link has never been an "avatar", he's always been a man/boy, no matter how his depictions have stylistically morphed in recent years into a more gender-neutral look. What is the problem with a male character remaining male? How or why does that affect your enjoyment of the game?

 

[Sir Alemeth]

good.gif

 

[SmackAttack]

Except that Link or rather Links don't have any particular characteristics or any type development that a character like Wonder Woman does.
Also, Wonder Woman being a man completely undercuts that character unlike the avatar that is Link.

People keep saying Link is an avatar as if it is fact. There's plenty of argument in this thread on why/how Link IS the character now and is no longer seen as an avatar by a good portion of the audience.

 

[DangerMouse]

Seriously, a playable Zelda is the answer to this issue, as Aonuma and his team put it, it's the "simplest option" so I see no reason why we have to discuss Link's gender when playing as Zelda is not only a option, at least in a spinoff, but one that truly should effect no one.

He also completely 100% shot down the "simplest option" so him saying that was the simplest option is completely full of shit.

He'd only allow such a thing in a spinoff game and that's not the level of production people want Zelda/Female Link in. They want her in a "real Zelda game". A Zelda game that Nintendo puts their entire budget and development ambition behind. Not a typical spinoff level production and not a game that tries to do things differently solely because it'd be a girl this time as if a girl hero couldn't do things Link's way.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

...an avatar that can't even be named. How quaint.

Seems to only be a problem with this game and even that's debatable right now.

Link has never been an "avatar", he's always been a man/boy, no matter how his depictions have stylistically morphed in recent years into a more gender-neutral look. What is the problem with a male character remaining male? How or why does that affect your enjoyment of the game?

Link being male doesn't disqualify him from being a avatar. There's no real problem with him being a guy, it's just that some people want to have the option. I doesn't personally affect my enjoyment but others like to see themselves in games. Also, how does having the option of a female Link affect your enjoyment of the game.

 

[Mango The Magician]

He also completely 100% shot down the "simplest option" so him saying that was the simplest option is completely full of shit.

He'd only allow such a thing in a spinoff game and that's not the level of production people want Zelda/Female Link in. They want her in a "real Zelda game". A Zelda game that Nintendo puts their entire budget and development ambition behind. Not a game that tries to do things differently just because it'd be a girl this time.

Lol. Come on now. This is silly. If the end goal here is to have a female character, than splitting hairs and talking about it not being "real enough" is the last thing we should be doing. Is this really about a playable female character or is just about proving that we can force a major video game series to have a playable female character?

Seems to only be a problem with this game and even that's debatable right now.

I guess FSA and FS don't actually exist.

 

[Loki]

Seems to only be a problem with this game and even that's debatable right now.


Link being male doesn't disqualify him from being a avatar. There's no real problem with him being a guy, it's just that some people want to have the option. I doesn't personally affect my enjoyment but others like to see themselves in games. Also, how does having the option of a female Link affect your enjoyment of the game.

It doesn't affect my enjoyment - it just seems so trivial that I can't imagine anyone concerning themselves with it. It's a video game. There is literally no aspect of Link's character or actions as expressed in the game that would allow/prevent one gender from identifying with him more or less. He has, for instance, no dialogue where he says overtly masculine things etc.

 

[DangerMouse]

Lol. Come on now. This is silly. If the end goal here is to have a female character, than splitting hairs and talking about it not being "real enough" is the last thing we should be doing. Is this really about a playable female character or is just about proving that we can force a major video game series to have a playable female character?

I guess FSA and FS don't actually exist.

Because there is often a very clear difference in production level between a mainline game and a spinoff. That's just the way it usually is. If they make it a full Zelda-level production even as a spinoff then great, but they'll have to prove it.

Not that there aren't some exceptions, as there always are in things.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Because there is often a very clear difference in production level between a mainline game and a spinoff. That's just the way it usually is.

Not that there aren't some exceptions, as there always are in things.

Why the hell does it matter? The end goal is more female characters to play as. Isn't that what you want? Can you not swallow your pride and play a spin-off, that assuming it did well, could lead to it's own secondary series?

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

I guess FSA and FS don't actually exist.

Besides ignoring the overall point I was making, that's two games out of eighteen.

It does affect my enjoyment - it just seems so trivial that I can't imagine anyone concerning themselves with it. It's a video game. There is literally no aspect of Link's character or actions as expressed in the game that would allow/prevent one gender from identifying with him more or less. He has, for instance, no dialogue where he says overtly masculine things etc.

If that's the case then why not have the option? Or even better (imo) gender neutral.
Also, "it's a video game" defensive is not a good argument.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Besides ignoring the overall point I was making, that's two games out of eighteen.


If that's the case then why not have the option? Or even better (imo) gender neutral.

Did you play FSA or FS? Did you notice that they were missing? Did you notice right away that it was possibly missing from BotW?

 

[uncredited male]

TIL Nintendo has a canonical sex toy.

 

[……forgetit]

TIL Nintendo has a canonical sex toy.

Two actually

It's "proof that birdo is a woman."

 

[DangerMouse]

Why the hell does it matter? The end goal is more female characters to play as. Isn't that what you want? Can you not swallow your pride and play a spin-off, that assuming it did well, could lead to it's own secondary series?

As I said, it depends how they do it, whether the production feels like it's not cheaping out, and what gameplay changes they make.

If their changes come across as stereotypical just because the hero is now a girl after 30 years of history then not really. If they want to enhance what she can do over Link with something like extra stealth and stealth kills with Sheik and build around that then cool, if they "think it's cool," for one example, to suddenly make Zelda not atleast somewhat about close range combat (in addition to new abilities), in the one Zelda that's finally lead by a girl hero, then yeah not so cool after 30 years of Zelda, most of which have had considerable close range combat despite all the new tweaks/installment-specific additions.

 

[Mango The Magician]

As I said, it depends how they do it, whether the production feels like it's not cheaping out, and what gameplay changes they make.

If their changes come across as stereotypical just because the hero is now a girl after 30 years of history then not really. If they want to enhance what she can do over Link with something like extra stealth with Sheik and build around that then cool, if they "think it's cool," for one example, to suddenly make Zelda not atleast somewhat about close range combat (in addition to new abilities), in the one Zelda that's lead by a girl hero, then yeah not so cool after 30 years of Zelda, most of which have had considerable close range combat despite all the new tweaks/installment-specific additions.

The end goal either way is Zelda getting more limelight and a playable female. If what you want is a playable female, than regardless of what the game turns out to be, it'd still be something, something we all can agree upon and be happy to at least have, something that doesn't anger and piss off the fans of Link.

Considering how they've handled Zelda in the series before though, I don't think you've much to worry about. The issues with Super Princess Peach, probably came more from Peach's personality literally being "princess" and less "she's a girl", Zelda's never really been just a princess.

 

[infinitys_7th]

We need a Platinum-developed Shiek game.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Wouldn't it be wacky if there was a male Wonder Woman

So wacky, no way that would have ever happened

 

[Mango The Magician]

Wouldn't it be wacky if there was a male Wonder Woman

So wacky, no way that would have ever happened

A gender reversal universe is a little different than changing one character and leaving the rest the same.

Which isn't to mention that any series is just as easily susceptible to this idea.

 

[A Link to the Past]

But they brought up Wonder Woman to say "you wouldn't make Wonder Woman a man", when in fact they totally would. If Wonder Woman can have an alternate universe incarnation, Link can have a female Link reincarnation.

 

[Mango The Magician]

But they brought up Wonder Woman to say "you wouldn't make Wonder Woman a man", when in fact they totally would. If Wonder Woman can have an alternate universe incarnation, Link can have a female Link reincarnation.

So can literally any character including Mario, and Samus, and Cloud, and so on.

...The point? I get that he said that Wonder Woman would never be turned into a man, but I think what he meant was that you'd never take the classic, or whatever the new main universe is, after the six billion reboots DC has had and the four thousand different parallel universes, and turn Wonder Woman, the main Wonder Woman, into Wonder Man.

 

[A Link to the Past]

So can literally any character including Mario, and Samus, and Cloud, and so on.

...The point? I get that he said that Wonder Woman would never be turned into a man, but I think what he meant was that you'd never take the classic, or whatever the new main universe is, after the six billion reboots DC has had and the four thousand different parallel universes, and turn Wonder Woman, the main Wonder Woman, into Wonder Man.

Well one is literally the by-far most significant female character in DC history (no lead character even comes close), and is extremely defined by her gender (she's basically supposed to be Super Feminism) and the other is male for no significant reason than "this is what we did." Thus, the comparison is not valid.

Also, you can't apply the logic applied to a character who reincarnates to characters who do not. That makes no sense.

 

[spekkeh]

I'm sure they introduced emotions as a stereotype of princesses, because that's what Peach is and always has been.

 

[Jigolo]

Good. Don't let the Internet control your creative freedom and do exactly as you want as a creator and visionary at Nintendo. Fuck Twitter and the Internets constant bitching and nagging and do what you want Miyamoto-San.

 

[Scientist Supreme!]

Good. Don't let the Internet control your creative freedom and do exactly as you want as a creator and visionary at Nintendo. Fuck Twitter and the Internets constant bitching and nagging and do what you want Miyamoto-San.

Except for when I don't like something in a game.

Also, no one can make Nintendo do anything, then deciding to do this based on this feedback is creative freedom. This is people criticizing a decision and wanting a option. Like tons of threads here.