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[Captain Europe]

The reason is that Nintendo wants it to be. Get over it. There's no reason for the spirit to always reincarnate in a person who looks 99% the same and with the same name over a dozen times over hundreds of years, but I don't see you complaining about that

I'm not complaining, nor am I bothered that Nintendo wants Link to stay male, I'm neutral in this argument. I'm just responding to what the poster said about the spirit, I don't think there would be a backlash because the ''spirit'' is male.

My understanding is at the end of Skyward Sword Demise cursed THAT Link to be the hero reincarnated. Fi told THAT Link that whenever he needed her again, she will be waiting. THAT Link was a male.

That Link was male yes, but I'm just saying that it doesn't mean spirits in the Zelda universe have genders. It would be quite dumb if people complained about that.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

The Zelda series has a shitload of female fans, and the majority of the characters in the series are female, there's no issue here that needs to be solved.

Doesn't matter. Link can't be a female so that doesn't count. But it is funny thinking that this is the case. Look at the sages in Oot, only 2/7 weren't female, look at the fact that the Goddesses are always given so much focus, that the main NPCs in almost every Zelda game women (Marin, Tetra, Impa, Midna). But none of that matters because Link can't be a woman and Zelda needs saving sometimes. Hyrule Warriors makes it quite obvious that there probably aren't even enough male characters, ignoring antagonists, to be viable fighters in the series as most are female

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

I'm not complaining, nor am I bothered that Nintendo wants Link to stay male, I'm neutral in this argument. I'm just responding to what the poster said about the spirit, I don't think there would be a backlash because the ''spirit'' is male.



That Link was male yes, but I'm just saying that it doesn't mean spirits in the Zelda universe have genders. It would be quite dumb if people complained about that.

Use common sense though; 1 and 1 make 2. Male Link is cursed to reincarnate his spirit into a new hero. Spirit is male.

I understand the mysticism behind it. But look at it from a canon perspective. Cursed original Male links spirit is meant to appear every time Zelda is threatened, all Links had been male. Maybe that original spirit is a male spirit. I'm not grasping at straws or anything; I'm trying to bring simple logic to this insane notion that Links spirit could easily appear in a female hero. I'm not saying it could never happen in that universe, but the creator is saying that Link is male and they have a strong lore reason to always make him male.

The female gender rules hyrule whether it be the princess or the goddess, you know the most powerful being. Let the male gender have some good representation in this series... Yet again, a little sarcasm at the end.

 

[chrisPjelly]

Solid straight-forward answer, and it's their series, so I'm okay with that. PLEASE, for the love of god, don't try to provide more reasoning than this

 

[AgeEighty]

I mean, we say the gender isn't important, but Nintendo seems to think so. That said lore or no lore Nintendo could switch the zelda protagonists gender any time they want to, they just have to want too.

Well the debate isn't over what Nintendo wants to do, it's over what they should do. And also over whether or not giving players the option of playing a female Link makes sense lore-wise.

My personal feeling is that it does, because Link has never been characterized strongly enough to lift him out of "avatar" territory, and because it's logical for the Hero of Time to have descendents of both genders.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Well the debate isn't over what Nintendo wants to do, it's over what they should do. And also over whether or not giving players the option of playing a female Link makes sense lore-wise.

My personal feeling is that it does, because Link has never been characterized strongly enough to lift him out of "avatar" territory, and because it's logical for the Hero of Time to have descendents of both genders.

They're spiritual reincarnations not his descendants

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Doesn't matter. Link can't be a female so that doesn't count.

It "counts," but when the creators say the eponymous female character of the series can't be playable because the male lead wouldn't have anything to do, that's going to get called out. That it took this long for straight answers regarding the matter, it shows they either didn't understand the matter, or couldn't respond to criticism of their games properly, neither of which is good.

 

[Maintenance]

Has anyone stopped for one second and ask, why do we want a link to be a female character. I've not seen anyone explain why that is a good reason?

It's as bizarre as wanting a male lead on the next tombraider.

RIP the Lars Croft film starring Idris Elba.

 

[Mango The Magician]

Doesn't matter. Link can't be a female so that doesn't count. But it is funny thinking that this is the case. Look at the sages in Oot, only 2/7 weren't female, look at the fact that the Goddesses are always given so much focus, that the main NPCs in almost every Zelda game women (Marin, Tetra, Impa, Midna). But none of that matters because Link can't be a woman and Zelda needs saving sometimes

Well to be fair, it's also quite silly how many people bring up the "they're different character!" idea ignoring that that's utterly meaningless. Essentially, the author of the story is the god of whatever fictitious world they're writing, it's a little different here, since it's more of a chain of different people, but regardless of what the fiction is, the author or creator can do literally anything to the story, and no amount of lore or anything at all would stop them from doing so, meaning any character in anything could just as easily be the opposite gender via whatever they want, be it "magic" "mad science" "a cosmic fluke" whatever; Link is no more susceptible to this change than any character, just that in this instance the excuse would be "the lore" while in any other instance anywhere it'd be whatever the developer/creator says. Therefore, why people continue to bring it up is beyond me, as it really means nothing in this argument.

Of course at least they're not like the people who can't separate a transformation like Cat Mario or Sonic the Werehog from a actual incarnation of Link.

 

[Jorok Goldblade]

Both of Zelda ' s disguise identities (Sheik and Tetra) have great game potential.

 

[Red Devil]

If you don't like the decision, don't buy the future games.

Ah, if it was that simple...

My personal feeling is that it does, because Link has never been characterized strongly enough to lift him out of "avatar" territory, and because it's logical for the Hero of Time to have descendents of both genders.

Sure, if Aryll is Link's sister then she too is a descendant of another Link, but she isn't Link.

 

[Wagram]

It's as bizarre as wanting a male lead on the next tombraider.

Blows me away that you actually believe Link is anywhere as close to an actual character as Lara. He's an Avatar, she isn't.

 

[AgeEighty]

They're spiritual reincarnations not his descendants

They're often both. Earlier in the series it was explicitly stated that they were of the same bloodline.

But it doesn't matter either way. Spiritual reincarnations can easily be different genders as well.

Sure, if Aryll is Link's sister then she too is a descendant of another Link, but she isn't Link.

I never said every single descendent of any Link was another reincarnation of him; that wouldn't make sense. Nor would it make sense that his entire bloodline was just one linear progression of Links; there'd have to be other family members along the way.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

Blows me away that you actually believe Link is anywhere as close to an actual character as Lara. He's an Avatar, she isn't.

This arguement is based off something said at least a decade ago. Link stopped being an avatar and started being a character long ago.

 

[DR2K]

The Legend of Link starring Zelda should also happen.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

But it doesn't matter either way. Spiritual reincarnations can easily be different genders as well.

So why aren't people advocating for a character creator then?

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

The Legend of Link starring Zelda should also happen.

They should also troll everyone and make you play as Zelda trying to aid Prince Link; further pushing the dream of a female Link.

 

[DragonOfWisdom]

They should make a Zelda spin-off that plays like a conventional 3d Zelda game but with more action in it.

 

[Bobs Big Boy]

I love "It is just a game, SO FUCK OFF!" sentiments. Always makes it look like it is more than a game, or in your case more than just a fantasy.

Zelda is just a fantasy videogame.

I'm not sure where you're going with that exactly.

 

[AgeEighty]

So why aren't people advocating for a character creator then?

Because I don't think many people are interested in making a hero who looks radically different from what we're used to. But it's easy to make Link either male or female while still adhering closely to the traditional look. The early speculation about BotW Link speaks to that.

 

[Mango The Magician]

They're often both. Earlier in the series it was explicitly stated that they were of the same bloodline.

But it doesn't matter either way. Spiritual reincarnations can easily be different genders as well.

In typical generic reincarnation yes, but clearly Zelda doesn't use the typical form of reincarnation so applying it to Zelda seems silly.

Not to mention there's myths from different countries where upwards of like ten people can be reincarnations of a single person and live at the same time, so really "reincarnation" works in the way the fiction wants it to work. There's hardly any set in stone rule book for it.

Blows me away that you actually believe Link is anywhere as close to an actual character as Lara. He's an Avatar, she isn't.

It blows me away that this is still a actual debate even though he's likely not even namable in BotW.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

Because I don't think anyone is interested in making a hero who looks radically different from what we're used to. But it's easy to make Link either male or female while still adhering closely to the traditional look. The early speculation about BotW Link speaks to that.

That's a bit hypocritical. You can't stick to the tradition of the character and make him female. If you're gonna break traditional, do it all the way.

To make things clear, I could care less if Link is a female in a game. I just wish people would accept that the creators look at him as a male and that's what they want.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

So why aren't people advocating for a character creator then?

Some are. Some just want a girl Link, and within that group, some want that because it would be the easiest to do (just one ore character model, rather than changing more aspects of the character).

Having more customization for set characters (hair styles, seems feasible considering there's already going to be more outfits/armors. If any of those are merely aesthetic differences, then having core character aesthetic differences doesn't seem too big a leap.

That's a bit hypocritical. You can't stick to the tradition of the character and make him female. If you're gonna break traditional, do it all the way.

It's not an "all or nothing," situation. BotW breaks tradition in some ways, but not all of them, just like every Zelda game ever released. I can see why people would be apprehensive of a gender option or a playable Zelda if they believed it was an "all or nothing," situation in which the entire game changes along with the mere difference in gender of the current incarnation of the main character.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Because I don't think anyone is interested in making a hero who looks radically different from what we're used to. But it's easy to make Link either male or female while still adhering closely to the traditional look. The early speculation about BotW Link speaks to that.

This seems a bit hypocritical. If you believe the spirit is genderless and can reincarnate into anyone, then a full character creator allowing you to change its gender, race, species and other physical characteristics would make the most sense. If you believe that it should always be white, blond elves, of either gender that makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

And before you bring up it being "too much work for Nintendo to want to do", almost every single one of their newer games has a character creator. The only ones that don't are their old established series, and even some of them do now (Pokemon, Fire Emblem)

 

[Easy_D]

We know that ... which is why we are asking for a FEMALE REINCARNATION OF LINK, THE OWNER OF THE TRIFORCE not Zelda as the protagonist

Isn't it more meaningful to give Zelda her own game where she kicks ass rather than arbitrarily changing Link's gender? If they go with both female and male Link, I'd rather they put in full on character customization, with two pre-made settings that look like traditional Link and a female variant thereof and then just let the players go wild.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

This seems a bit hypocritical. If you believe the spirit is genderless and can reincarnate into anyone, then a full character creator allowing you to change its gender, race, species and other physical characteristics would make the most sense. If you believe that it should always be white, blond elves, of either gender that makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

Some people want that, some don't. It's not hypocritical that someone wants a character that looks like classic link, but as a girl. It's not an "all or nothing," situation. What makes you think that's how it works for people's wants for the series?

Isn't it more meaningful to give Zelda her own game where she kicks ass rather than arbitrarily changing Link's gender?

It's about on the same level of meaning, just different kinds of meaning. On one hand, you have "girls can be the chosen hero that embodies 'courage' too," and on the other, "princesses don't need to be damsels in distress."

They've also shot down Zelda being the lead in a mainline game too. Not sure why people bring that up as a counter to girl Link when it's been made clear the creators want the biggest line of games to exclusively star male leads.

 

[Shig]

Fine by me. Playing a mainline Zelda with a character other than Link would feel like playing a mainline Mario without Mario.

Now imagine how dumb this would sound:

Fine by me. Playing a mainline Legend of Zelda game with a character other than Link would feel like playing a mainline Legend of Peach game with a character other than Mario.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

Some are. Some just want a girl Link, and within that group, some want that because it would be the easiest to do (just one ore character model, rather than changing more aspects of the character).

Having more customization for set characters (hair styles, seems feasible considering there's already going to be more outfits/armors. If any of those are merely aesthetic differences, then having core character aesthetic differences doesn't seem too big a leap.



It's not an "all or nothing," situation. BotW breaks tradition in some ways, but not all of them, just like every Zelda game ever released. I can see why people would be apprehensive of a gender option or a playable Zelda if they believed it was an "all or nothing," situation in which the entire game changes along with the mere difference in gender of the current incarnation of the main character.

What if, and we don't really know one way or another, this Link is the same Link as a game already released. He wakes up after a 100 year sleep. Whose to say this isn't TP Link? Or sprit tracks? That would be a darn solid reason as to why you can't choose a gender in this game.

 

[AgeEighty]

In typical generic reincarnation yes, but clearly Zelda doesn't use the typical form of reincarnation so applying it to Zelda seems silly.

What seems silly to me is that anyone can pretend that there's a clearly defined set of rules for reincarnations in the Zelda series. Nintendo has barely ever troubled itself to go into detail about the process.

That's a bit hypocritical. You can't stick to the tradition of the character and make him female. If you're gonna break traditional, do it all the way.

To make things clear, I could care less if Link is a female in a game. I just wish people would accept that the creators look at him as a male and that's what they want.

There's no hypocrisy in wanting a gender option but not wanting a hero who doesn't look like Link at all. Physical gender is just a matter of a single chromosome after all.

As for your bolded part, if everyone just accepted what devs want to do and never had a discussion about our own feelings and preferences, then what are we on NeoGAF for? Companies listen to our feedback, including Nintendo. This is a form of feedback.

 

[Paracelsus]

The series stayed on top for thirty years while retaining very basic mechanics (like Dragon Quest that's for all intents and purposes still an 80s game), so they have all the room in the world for advancements (even graphics) before even tackling character customization. Some people are flipping their * over features appeared in the most basic rpg from over a decade ago.

 

[Snaku]

The hero must have a penis, that's what makes him a hero. Girls can't be heroes, they don't have a penis.

 

[Easy_D]

Some people want that, some don't. It's not hypocritical that someone wants a character that looks like classic link, but as a girl. It's not an "all or nothing," situation. What makes you think that's how it works for people's wants for the series?



It's about on the same level of meaning, just different kinds of meaning. On one hand, you have "girls can be the chosen hero that embodies 'courage' too," and on the other, "princesses don't need to be damsels in distress."

They've also shot down Zelda being the lead in a mainline game too. Not sure why people bring that up as a counter to girl Link when it's been made clear the creators want the biggest line of games to exclusively star male leads.

When you put it like that, then yeah, it does carry the same weight either way. If male Link is so important, just do what Bioware did, market the male variant, but put in character customization and gender options. Baby steps.

 

[SephLuis]

So you are saying he is Blond, White, Male, uses a green tunic, has Sword, Shield and Long ears.... except for the times where he does not have those ?

I don't know but "bearer of the triforce of courage", main protagonist and more likely to use the master sword or some variation fits better with me. New game he does not wear green, ALttP he has pink hair, sometimes he a Goron (a race without 2 sexes as far as we know), a rabbit, a wolf, a deku, a zora and a 2d painting all gets far from your definitions of Link.

As some people mentioned in the other thread, he was even a FAIRY in Legend of Zelda 2 ! and Fairies are tipicaly women in the Zelda Series ... so not even MALE counts even if you count Gorons as male

I'm not sure where you're going with your line of posting, but he will always be a male. He'll always be a young-ish light skinned, blond haired boy, with pointy ears who wears a green hat and tunic. You can claim he's an avatar as much as you won't, but that doesn't change the fact he has a distinct look that will always be that way

As answered by Villain, you're exaggerating when you're bringing gameplay mechanics to a discussion about the regular design of a character.

As I said before, there are times where they make small changes. I might be remembering wrong but there is a few Links without the pointy ears or, as I said before, he has pink hair in one game. While not all characteristics are always present, there is enough of them so that you can recognize the character.

As I said before, Link isn't your generic hero that can easily change traits at the will of the player. Even in BotW where you can change clothes and weapons, there's still trait of the Link everyone already knows.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

What if, and we don't really know one way or another, this Link is the same Link as a game already released. He wakes up after a 100 year sleep. Whose to say this isn't TP Link? Or sprit tracks? That would be a darn solid reason as to why you can't choose a gender in this game.

That would be. And had they said, "there are story reasons for it that we don't want to reveal yet," then they wouldn't sound like they're scrambling to come up with reasons why the girl can't (or can't ever) be the star in the series.

When you put it like that, then yeah, it does carry the same weight either way. If male Link is so important, just do what Bioware did, market the male variant, but put in character customization and gender options. Baby steps.

I agree about the baby steps. It's not even the lack of those options or lack of Zelda starring, it's the rejection of those ever being possibilities for dubious reasons.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

Some people want that, some don't. It's not hypocritical that someone wants a character that looks like classic link, but as a girl. It's not an "all or nothing," situation. What makes you think that's how it works for people's wants for the series?

Because the same reasoning they use to support why there should be a female Link can be used to propose a full character creator.

Not to mention if there is a "classic Link look" that dispels the idea of him being an avatar in the first place, as an avatar should be representative of the player and shouldn't really have distinct characteristics

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think it really emphasizes just how problematic a situation Nintendo has with women in mainline games. Zelda can't be a star, and aside from SMB2, Peach had to wait for nearly 30 years to be playable in a mainline title.

 

[Who]

Shiek spinoff has been mentioned too many times from Nintendo employees for it not to be a thing.

Developed by Platinum. Mark my words.

 

[AgeEighty]

This seems a bit hypocritical. If you believe the spirit is genderless and can reincarnate into anyone, then a full character creator allowing you to change its gender, race, species and other physical characteristics would make the most sense. If you believe that it should always be white, blond elves, of either gender that makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

And before you bring up it being "too much work for Nintendo to want to do", almost every single one of their newer games has a character creator. The only ones that don't are their old established series, and even some of them do now (Pokemon, Fire Emblem)

I don't think it's hypocritical at all. A female Link with all the same physical features is less of a stretch or a departure than, say, a male Link who has short-cropped black hair and a big bushy beard. It's just Link with two X chromosomes.

That said, I wouldn't be averse to allowing players to change skin color, either, if enough players want that. I just wouldn't be in favor of a full-on character creator that lets you make someone that is in no way recognizable as the hero of a Zelda game. There's no hypocrisy in that.

 

[Mango The Magician]

What seems silly to me is that anyone can pretend that there's a clearly defined set of rules for reincarnations in the Zelda series. Nintendo has barely ever troubled itself to go into detail about the process.

You're right they haven't touched the idea of reincarnation all that much, as all they've done is created a character and kept him the same for thirty years and that's all they're doing here.

Now imagine how dumb this would sound:

"Fine by me. Playing a mainline Legend of Zelda game with a character other than Link would feel like playing a mainline Legend of Metroid game with a character other than Samus." ...?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

Because the same reasoning they use to support why there should be a female Link can be used to propose a full character creator.

Not to mention if there is a "classic Link look" that dispels the idea of him being an avatar in the first place, as an avatar should be representative of the player and shouldn't really have distinct characteristics

Sure. But it doesn't change what that individual wants.

And I agree there may as well be a character creator, no matter how limited.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

What seems silly to me is that anyone can pretend that there's a clearly defined set of rules for reincarnations in the Zelda series. Nintendo has barely ever troubled itself to go into detail about the process.



There's no hypocrisy in wanting a gender option but not wanting a hero who doesn't look like Link at all. Physical gender is just a matter of a single chromosome after all.

As for your bolded part, if everyone just accepted what devs want to do and never had a discussion about our own feelings and preferences, then what are we on NeoGAF for?

The "make Link a female" 'discussion' has been more of a "find a reason to crap on BotW and those sexist developers at Nintendo" rather than stating why it would be cool to play as a female Link or pondering the idea of it. I'm all for the discussion of how cool it would be for there to be a female link, I support that discussion. But to turn every Zelda thread into a narrative of how sexist or anti female Nintendo is because a series that traditionally has tons of non offensive or sexist strong women won't let you play as a female version of a traditionally male character is ridiculous.

 

[mocolostrocolos]

Good. I dislike changes made by political correcteness without any reason.

The 'reincarnation' excuse is just dumb.

Link is a guy, and should always be.

That said, I really need a Sheik game. THAT wouls awesome.

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

Good. I dislike changes made by political correcteness without any reason.

The 'reincarnation' excuse is just dumb.

Link is a guy, and should always be.

That said, I really need a Sheik game. THAT wouls awesome.

I would play a Sheik game designed secretly as the third Bayonetta game.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

These 'Link being a girl' debates are always dumb, but if they are going to cop out and do a spin off game, don't make it Shiek.

Shiek is the 'Zelda as a boy in disguise'. I want a bad ass Twilight Princess Zelda as the lead.

Sheik is a fucking ninja

 

[mocolostrocolos]

I would play a Sheik game designed secretly as the third Bayonetta game.

More like a Tenchu game.

Stealth Hylian Operations.

 

[UnemployedVillain]

I would play a Sheik game designed secretly as the third Bayonetta game.

Too acrobatic. Needs to be more down down, like Ninja Gaiden level. But then again she's magic...so maybe not

 

[AESplusF]

See this is what Nintendo should have said in the first place, there's no reason to give weak excuses, just state the facts.

 

[ClayKavalier]

Link is no longer an Avatar character like Robin.

I think in the future, they really want to go with Link as a truly defined character of his own, this was shown in what characterization Link had in Skyward Sword.

I would also expect not being able to name him any more.

It's a shame that they won't make a female link but it only makes sense with what they want to do with the character.

Each game has a different Link though, or most do anyway. Don't see what would prevent them having a female Link. Obviously any direct sequel games would be sort of weird with a female protagonist, but otherwise there's not an either/ or choice between female Link and personality-having Link.

They dont want a female Link.That is all folks! Just let developers do the games they want to do, and then you just enjoy them. This female Link thing is getting a bit boring. Even worst considering that 70% of the people asking for a female Link have never played a Zelda game before....

I've played every game except the CDi ones. Interested to see how you're calculating that statistic.

 

[NHarmonic.]

Some conventions are worth retaining.

Doesn't mean link will always be male though right?

It's exactly what he meants. And still no one can find a lore reason to that, while people hide their misoginy in "it's just what the dev wants, the wielder of the bravery triforce can only have a penis!"

 

[CentralScrutinizer]

More like a Tenchu game.

Stealth Hylian Operations.

I never played Tenchu so I wouldn't know how that would play. But a proper ninja game with that Nintendo touch would be fantastic. Especially considering if crap hit the fan one of the mechanics could be to hide somewhere safe and transform to Princess form and "get away".

Man they could make a sick game where Zelda/Sheik is trying to get to the bottom of corruption in hyrule by going back and forth between Zelda/Sheik. Could be awesome.