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[Mess]

Wasn't the weapon breaking a bug due to the switch to 60fps anyway?

Edit : meant to quote TrueLengend's post but seems I can't achieve such a trivial thing even when I edit the post....

 

[Metnut]

Not hoping for endless cut scenes, or even a lot more of them, but I’d appreciate it if the lore/story was a bit more easily available to players.

 

[DelireMan7]

Yes, these games are way too pretentious with how much they demand from gamers.

I work 60 hour weeks, I have a social life, I don't have time to dig through the internet to find out what's going on in the game I play on a completely different platform.

This isn't a FROM thing only. GAAS Games like Apex Legends and Overwatch invest a lot in their constantly updating stories, but if you ever wanted to learn any of it, its not going to be in the game. You need to find shit on YT and on Reddit to understand the lore and story.

I don't want to sound rude but I probably will... but if you don't agree with a game philosophy (or don't have time for it) maybe just don't play it.

I would love to dig into a MMORPG but I can't to invest that many time in a game. So I don't play them, I will not complain that MMO takes too much time.

The cryptic and scattered lore is what make the franchise unique would be a pity to remove that.
It's a bit like the complaints "MGS games have too many cutscenes". It's kind of the DNA of the franchise...

Games can't please everyone, and should not try to.

Anyway dev make whatever they want with their games. I am not against an evolution on this side but I love how it was done in the Soulsborne.

 

[Trogdor1123]

Not sure, maybe. I wouldn't want too much to be explicit. But some more details being more accessible would be nice

 

[Griffon]

Sekiro's story was pretty straightforward and explained much more directly than Souls and Bb. As a result Sekiro's story ended up being the most boring of the bunch.

 

[cireza]

Never cared about the story of any Souls games nor Sekiro.

 

[Fbh]

Yeah, wouldn't mind that.
These are some of my favorite games ever but I admit with several of them I had to go look at wikis and other media online to really grasp the whole lore/story.

They've said Elden Ring will have a more direct approach to Storytelling, so we'll see how that works out.

 

[JoeBudden]

I don't want to sound rude but I probably will... but if you don't agree with a game philosophy (or don't have time for it) maybe just don't play it.

Too late. And, "Game Philosophy" is just a pretentious way of referring to game design. If we all shared this mindset of "dont agree, dont play it" then what's the point of discussion?

Games can't please everyone, and should not try to.

Anyway dev make whatever they want with their games.

I don't agree with this sort of stuff (the whole 'games are art' debate nonsense).

These are consumer products at the end of the day, and they should certainly try to make the game accessible to as many players as possible. Certain aspects of the game are definitely artistic, but at as a whole, these are just consumer products and they provide a livelihood for these developers. They're only hindering themselves by focusing on entertaining a very niche group of hardcore players. And it's only a fraction of this group that cares about lore. And an even smaller fraction that cares about how the lore is told. The main draw for these games have never been the lore, i wouldn't even say half the people who completed Bloodborne understand its story. Its far less than that.

The main draw with these games have always been the level design and the sense of accomplishment you get when you clear an overwhelmingly hard level and huge boss. All that stuff can still be preserved if you add more lore to the game. In fact, these sort of improvements would help bring more players to the game, and nothing is preventing you from still keeping many aspects of the story and lore hidden out of plain view. Have some fucking idea of your character, their history, their observations of the world and its events, instead of just dropping you in the middle of nowhere with no idea of what is going on.

The fact that I need to go outside of your game, to fully understand your game, is just bad product design. Sure, the dev can make whatever they want, but their IPs will never grow if they don't listen to people. And again back to my original point, this is just pretentious. I would even argue its lazy, but I'm sure stans will argue me down and insist "that's how the game is intended".

 

[synchronicity]

nobody would play an easy mode because the hard truth is that From games without their difficulty would be a puddle of wank.

No, the people who demand all games be designed specifically for them would play it and then complain that they don't get what all the fuss is about.

 

[Con-Z-epT]

These are consumer products at the end of the day, and they should certainly try to make the game accessible to as many players as possible. Certain aspects of the game are definitely artistic, but at as a whole, these are just consumer products and they provide a livelihood for these developers. They're only hindering themselves by focusing on entertaining a very niche group of hardcore players. And it's only a fraction of this group that cares about lore. And an even smaller fraction that cares about how the lore is told. The main draw for these games have never been the lore, i wouldn't even say half the people who completed Bloodborne understand its story. Its far less than that.

Even if most players like the core gameplay more than the way the lore is presented than it is still no excuse to rationalize this aspect under the notion of accessibility. It is a key aspect of the game and a conscious design decision by FromSoftware. I'm quite certain that by the end of the day their games bring them enough revenue to make a living, even while leaving out a huge playerbase. Artistic integrity is another important part of their games which means that it is not just a consumer product and also a love letter to gaming as a whole. It should be obvious that FromSoftware has a clear vision that is not affected by the needs of the players.

The main draw with these games have always been the level design and the sense of accomplishment you get when you clear an overwhelmingly hard level and huge boss. All that stuff can still be preserved if you add more lore to the game. In fact, these sort of improvements would help bring more players to the game, and nothing is preventing you from still keeping many aspects of the story and lore hidden out of plain view. Have some fucking idea of your character, their history, their observations of the world and its events, instead of just dropping you in the middle of nowhere with no idea of what is going on.

It can only be preserved if all the things you don't like stay in the game. The amount of exposition, even if cryptic, is already huge in their games. If you would add more it sure would get cloutered and over saturated. The fact that you think that the narative in the Souls games is not a main draw shows that you are not willing to dig deeper into it and find some meaningfull conclusions on your own, which would than lead to the same sense of acomplishment that the rest of the game provokes.

The fact that I need to go outside of your game, to fully understand your game, is just bad product design. Sure, the dev can make whatever they want, but their IPs will never grow if they don't listen to people. And again back to my original point, this is just pretentious. I would even argue its lazy, but I'm sure stans will argue me down and insist "that's how the game is intended".

If you think it is bad game design than that is, of course, your subjective and viable opinion. It is not lazy since a lot of work goes into it. Their games don't need to grow but will do so naturally. All while staying true to themselves and not listening to others. I think it is naive to call it pretentious.

 

[DavidGzz]

Nah, I'd rather have the mystery, speculation, the truth possibly lost to time. When there is a clear story I think the games lose some of their atmosphere. Let our minds run wild. I don't know. I wouldn't be too sad about it. But I like the way they are now.

 

[JoeBudden]

Even if most players like the core gameplay more than the way the lore is presented than it is still no excuse to rationalize this aspect under the notion of accessibility. It is a key aspect of the game and a conscious design decision by FromSoftware. I'm quite certain that by the end of the day their games bring them enough revenue to make a living, even while leaving out a huge playerbase. Artistic integrity is another important part of their games which means that it is not just a consumer product and also a love letter to gaming as a whole. It should be obvious that FromSoftware has a clear vision that is not affected by the needs of the players.

It can only be preserved if all the things you don't like stay in the game. The amount of exposition, even if cryptic, is already huge in their games. If you would add more it sure would get cloutered and over saturated. The fact that you think that the narative in the Souls games is not a main draw shows that you are not willing to dig deeper into it and find some meaningfull conclusions on your own, which would than lead to the same sense of acomplishment that the rest of the game provokes.

If you think it is bad game design than that is, of course, your subjective and viable opinion. It is not lazy since a lot of work goes into it. Their games don't need to grow but will do so naturally. All while staying true to themselves and not listening to others. I think it is naive to call it pretentious.

You guys are wildly overstating the importance of the lore in these Souls games. This is a textbook example of how people romanticize the things they do and like.

Most people have no idea of the story in these games, so how important / huge / [whatever adjective you wanna use] is it really? Its the gameplay that sells these games.

All this mystery and cryptic shit is just extra.

 

[Con-Z-epT]

You guys are wildly overstating the importance of the lore in these Souls games. This is a textbook example of how people romanticize the things they do and like.

Most people have no idea of the story in these games, so how important / huge / [whatever adjective you wanna use] is it really? Its the gameplay that sells these games.

All this mystery and cryptic shit is just extra.

This "shit" as you like to call it, is an integral part of the game and the experience. Just because you leave it out of the equation doesn't make it less meaningful.

It is however somewhat ignorant to discredit a game by just looking at parts of it.

 

[JoeBudden]

This "shit" as you like to call it, is an integral part of the game and the experience. Just because you leave it out of the equation doesn't make it less meaningful.

It is however somewhat ignorant to discredit a game by just looking at parts of it.

And, likewise with you. Just because you insist it's integral, doesn't mean it is. It wasn't important to most people who beat these games.

No one's discrediting the game. The soulsborne games range from great to amazing. But sometimes they have aspects, such as story telling, that are overly obtuse and inconvenient for no legitimate reason. You can argue there's value added, but you know deep down most people don't know the lore in these games.

 

[Con-Z-epT]

And, likewise with you. Just because you insist it's integral, doesn't mean it is. It wasn't important to most people who beat these games.

No one's discrediting the game. The soulsborne games range from great to amazing. But sometimes they have aspects, such as story telling, that are overly obtuse and inconvenient for no legitimate reason. You can argue there's value added, but you know deep down most people don't know the lore in these games.

Although you can play through the whole game without investing a single thought about the overarching lore and still have fun with it you are still missing out on an important part of the game.

Of course it is not a necessity.

But after i at least tried to gather as much insight as possible into the narrative without immediately looking up someone else's conclusions i'm convinced that it is in fact integral. Most people are just not willing to put in the effort that is necessary to gain more out of those games and are happy to just slay away into some meaningless enemies whearas they could find much deeper and more fulfilling joy if they knew what they are killing and why. If you were to change the way the lore was presented, you would change these games to something else and in a drastic way. Sure more people would understand what is going on but the ones that already did would be robbed of their enjoyment.

 

[kicker]

Bumping this thread since I was going to make one really similar to it.

I agree that they really should work on delivering whatever narrative and lore they have in better ways than item descritpions alone
I don't know about all the ideas in the op, but I think that the fact that they patched in methods to more easily track npcs and quests in elden ring suggests that they themselves know they need to evolve their narrative presentation.

 

[March Climber]

Bumping this thread since I was going to make one really similar to it.

I agree that they really should work on delivering whatever narrative and lore they have in better ways than item descritpions alone
I don't know about all the ideas in the op, but I think that the fact that they patched in methods to more easily track npcs and quests in elden ring suggests that they themselves know they need to evolve their narrative presentation.

Not a bad bump.

My two suggestions:

1) They can have a direct story but more implied lore. The one lesson I wanted other soulslike devs to learn from Code Vein(also Namco published) was that an engaging story can be told in a soulslike, while still keeping the world, backstory, enemies, and other characters shrouded in mystery. You can do both.

2) Going from 1, if someone doesn’t have the budget for 1, but still wants to sort of add more, then there could be journal entries or something similar sprinkled throughout the game to help drive you forward more narratively.

 

[kicker]

1) They can have a direct story but more implied lore. The one lesson I wanted other soulslike devs to learn from Code Vein(also Namco published) was that an engaging story can be told in a soulslike, while still keeping the world, backstory, enemies, and other characters shrouded in mystery. You can do both

I think sekiro was basically this, with very little implied and not directly stated.

there could be journal entries or something similar sprinkled throughout the game to help drive you forward more narratively

I agree. A lot of good ideas mentioned in the thread already

 

[kicker]

Most people are just not willing to put in the effort that is necessary to gain more out of those games and are happy to just slay away into some meaningless enemies whearas they could find much deeper and more fulfilling joy if they knew what they are killing and why.

I don't think you understand that most people *do want the "deeper and more fulfilling joy" they get from knowing what they are killing and why. That seems to be exactly what the thread premise is, but you're putting 100% of the blame on the player for not putting in the effort when even the people who put in the effort (sekirodubi, vaati, tarnished archaelologist, etc) don't even have a simple fixed order of events for elden ring, as an example.

If you were to change the way the lore was presented, you would change these games to something else and in a drastic way

Would it be drastic to include the following(from the op):

An npc dedicated to providing cryptic references to any relationship between two items placed on the ground in front of them

- An optional boss guarding some bestiary with only bits and pieces of extra information scattered around it

 

[kicker]

Actually, nevermind Con-Z-epT I realize I'm replying to an old post