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[Africa's Toto]

Some way for a more complete understanding of the lore to be achievable in-game.

I don't mean narration, cutscenes or multiple dialogue options. Could be tomes hidden in some hard to reach area or something similar.

Vague item descriptions intrigue and build mystery, but if one wanted to fully absorb the worlds and the events that shape them, a lot of out-of-media searching needs to be done (especially in the souls games).

Yes, yes, It's part of the design that way, but I think they relaxed it a little with Sekiro.

Thoughts?


edit: some ways it could be done

- Take those same cryptic references and slap 60% of them, word for word, in books scattered around a single in-game dilapidated library, and leave the rest in environmental storytelling, dialogue and item descriptions

- An npc dedicated to providing cryptic references to any relationship between two items placed on the ground in front of them

- An optional boss guarding some bestiary with only bits and pieces of information scattered around it

Vaatividya and co make good stuff, but I really don't want to open up youtube for information while I'm playing the damn thing. I already do that with other games to get more information, while in the souls games it's the only feasible way.

Also, no, I don't think an easy mode would help at all.

 

[Africa's Toto]

Actually, on second thought, I'm realizing just how much information actually is in the games.
Just heavily decentralized and without the special emphasis other games place on theirs

edit: Still, having to leave the game to get even a basic understanding of what you're doing, even with all the information they throw in there is a little far, no?

 

[01011001]

Actually, on second thought, I'm realizing just how much information actually is in the games.
Just heavily decentralized and without the special emphasis other games place on theirs

yeah... I was gonna say that...

 

[laynelane]

I enjoy putting together the story/lore in Souls games. I realize it's not for everyone, but I really appreciate that From doesn't hand-hold the player. It's such a refreshing change from the many games that do - whether it be with gameplay or story-telling. Also, I don't believe out-of-media searching is a requirement to understand what's going on.

 

[ReBurn]

I'd be happy if they put some effort into frame pacing before lore. But I'd be happy with lore, too.

 

[AJUMP23]

I just watch that one guys YouTube videos. They are great and better than reading stuff in the game.

 

[Africa's Toto]

I enjoy putting together the story/lore in Souls games. I realize it's not for everyone, but I really appreciate that From doesn't hand-hold the player. It's such a refreshing change from the many games that do - whether it be with gameplay or story-telling.

Yeah, sure, I can appreciate that

Also, I don't believe out-of-media searching is a requirement to understand what's going on.

I don't know, man. Sure, one could technically piece together all the bits of lore thrown around loading screens and item descriptions within dark souls, but most won't have the patience to start taking physical notes and linking references.

Honestly, even if they just took those same cryptic references and slapped 60% of them, word for word, in books scattered around a single in-game dilapidated library, and left the rest in environmental storytelling, dialogue and item descriptions, I think it would be great

 

[laynelane]

Yeah, sure, I can appreciate that


I don't know, man. Sure, one could technically piece together all the bits of lore thrown around loading screens and item descriptions within dark souls, but most won't have the patience to start taking physical notes and linking references.

Honestly, even they just took those same cryptic references and slapped 60% of them, word for word, in books scattered around a single in-game dilapidated library, and left the rest in environmental storytelling, dialogue and item descriptions, I think it would be great

Are you looking for consolidation of in-game information within the game? Not so much more information/explanation? If so, I can see where you're coming from. Over the course of completing a game, the item descriptions from the starting area or opening cutscene events can definitely fade a little from memory.

 

[Africa's Toto]

Are you looking for consolidation of in-game information within the game? Not so much more information/explanation?

Yeah, like I mentioned here

Actually, on second thought, I'm realizing just how much information actually is in the games.
Just heavily decentralized and without the special emphasis other games place on theirs

I think there really is a lot of information in these games, it's just cryptic and scattered

Of course it would all depend on how they implemented it, so I voted maybe

 

[laynelane]

Yeah, like I mentioned here

I think there really is a lot of information in these games, it's just cryptic and scattered

Of course it would all depend on how they implemented it, so I voted maybe

I also voted "maybe". I'm of the mind that the developers should do as they wish - leaving it up to the player to discover the lore seems a lot more respectful of player agency and time than many other story-telling approaches in games. On the other hand, a musty library tucked away in an unknown location sounds like a fun challenge to find and a handy resource for putting all the bits of information together.

 

[nightmare-slain]

I'd be happy if they put some effort into frame pacing before lore. But I'd be happy with lore, too.

you obviously haven't played any souls games on Pc then. running at solid 60fps pacing is not an issue. running at 30-60fps on console it's not a good experience. the game engine simply isn't design to run below (or above) 60fps.

go play souls/sekiro on pc and try saying pacing needs fixed.

 

[NikuNashi]

First they should hire a graphical team that can muster up something resembling current tech to compliment the awesome game design, or just partner with Bluepoint on the graphics side. The lore is cool as is I think.

 

[YukiOnna]

I don't know, I think Sekiro did more than enough in that regard and had the perfect balance. Unfortunately, it's not for every single Fromsoft game though. But it's okay, I still get the gist and have VaatiVidya to watch to see if I miss anything.

 

[Elbow Identity Shallow]

I thought this was going to be a difficulty select thread.
Yeah, there is probably far more lore within their games then you could ever find on your own, it's just not as obvious to find as it is in many other games. It's the sort of thing that people are still finding years later. I actually like that you have to really work for it and even when you get it you have to have been paying attention for it to make any sense.

 

[eNT1TY]

It wouldn't tarnish the experience in any way so why not. The games are rich in implied lore already, adding more lore directly through discoverables would be an improvement.

 

[hybrid_birth]

I would say add an easy mode but id get roasted by Gaf.

In fact i can see the pitchforks from here.

 

[haxan7]

I would say add an easy mode but id get roasted by Gaf.

In fact i can see the pitchforks from here.

nobody would play an easy mode because the hard truth is that From games without their difficulty would be a puddle of wank.

 

[Graciaus]

I couldn't tell you the story of any of the souls games and I've beat them all many times. That doesn't bother me either.

 

[Northeastmonk]

I’m replaying Bloodborne at the moment and one of its best parts is how I don’t know anything. It’s a crazy, twisted, cryptic world. Why on earth do I need a Tonsil Stone? I completely missed that whole Frontier during my first and second playthroughs. I was missing a boss fight, so I looked it up. As long as the plot is not forced in my face. Best part is just picking it up and playing. If I want to watch a cool cutscene then that’s there before a boss.

A bestiary would be cool. Sum up the story in an index. I’m sorta happy they do it this way. Otherwise I start feeling guilty for skipping cutscenes just because I want an extra 10-15 minutes to play. I definitely don’t want to wait for a ton of cutscenes in Elden Ring. I think it’s wonderful to not know. What if understanding the lore made you less interested? I don’t watch a lot of lore videos, but I do own the DaS Compendium. I memorized where to go in all their games, but ask me about the lore and I probably can’t explain anything other than what happens when I get to each area.

 

[01011001]

I would say add an easy mode but id get roasted by Gaf.

In fact i can see the pitchforks from here.

there is an easy mode... it's called farming XP and using summons. do you know how easy the game gets with even a single added player/NPC? as soon as you are not the only person an enemy will focus on the Souls games become 100% easier.
and if you just farm for some time and level up enough you also can make the games easier.

 

[01011001]

nobody would play an easy mode because the hard truth is that From games without their difficulty would be a puddle of wank.

well yeah, just like Mario without jumping would be shit. the difficulty is an intrinsic part of the gamedesign just like jumping is an intrinsic part of Mario's gamedesign

 

[kanjobazooie]

there is an easy mode... it's called farming XP and using summons. do you know how easy the game gets with even a single added player/NPC? as soon as you are not the only person an enemy will focus on the Souls games become 100% easier.
and if you just farm for some time and level up enough you also can make the games easier.

100%.
I'm the worst Souls player on the planet, but I have managed to beat many of the bosses on the very first or second try (with or without summons) thanks to grinding.
The game becomes much more manageable when you're loaded with Vitality and Strength.

Although I'll have to say grinding takes time and not everyone have the patience for it.

..

Back to the OP topic, playing Anime Souls (Code Vein) made me appreciate Souls' storytelling style more. The sense of mystery goes well with the gameplay.
You're on a journey, and you might not get all the answers, but you'll discover some of them here and there.
I think it's perfect as it is.

 

[Greirat]

I like that the story and lore isn't handed to you on an obvious plate. Miyazaki knows exactly what he's doing.

 

[DelireMan7]

Games are already filled with lore. It's complex to put everything together alone that's true. But it brings a lot of discussion in the community (on reddit, forums, with friends...) and I love this aspect of the Soulsborne. It's like being part of a "discovery team" and chasing every hints possible to make some connections. This "out of media search" (like you call it) is part of the Sousborne game experience for me.

Adding more "clear" explanation in game would reduced the "social" aspect of these games so I am not for it.

I like to try piecing stuff together and eventually check some YT videos to see get stuff I didn't get.

The cryptic lore of the Soulsborne is one of the major feature (actually the second behind the freedom of build) that made me so fan of them.
Sekiro showed me that a more direct approach removes a lot to my enjoyment.

 

[bitbydeath]

I would say add an easy mode but id get roasted by Gaf.

In fact i can see the pitchforks from here.

I’m playing through Dark Souls 1 for the first time and it’s quite basic compared to Demons and Bloodborne.

 

[NahaNago]

why yes, I would love for them to add an easy mode.

 

[GymWolf]

Absolutely because as it is now i give jack shit about plots in from games.

 

[Bartski]

but if one wanted to fully absorb the worlds and the events that shape them, a lot of out-of-media searching needs to be done (especially in the souls games).

No it doesn't. The whole point of it is it's cryptic and scattered and demands some effort and paying attention. Just like the gameplay.
Most people however need an "xyz explained" youtube video for every story that isn't all laid out for them in the simplest way possible.

 

[TonyK]

Could be tomes hidden in some hard to reach area or something similar.

Finding random tomes, notes or texts in games is the narrative aspect I hate more. I understand it's necessity 20 years ago, but now it's dated and lazy design. Apart from stupid from an immersive point of view. Never, no one, will stop fighting to read notes about how a randome people died infected of a virus. Or worse, those silly notes people writes narrating in real time how enemies enter the crypt to attack them. Or they write how become a zombie.

Please, don't fill games with that crap. A knight in the underworld never will stop to read a book.

 

[Martinski43]

Elden Ring probably already have this change. Why else bother to bring on GRRM?

 

[Soodanim]

I would be fine with them adding more directly to the Souls games, but at the same time it’s left open for a reason - it’s not meant to be a 100% clear and verified story that you find

 

[Africa's Toto]

Finding random tomes, notes or texts in games is the narrative aspect I hate more. I understand it's necessity 20 years ago, but now it's dated and lazy design. Apart from stupid from an immersive point of view. Never, no one, will stop fighting to read notes about how a randome people died infected of a virus. Or worse, those silly notes people writes narrating in real time how enemies enter the crypt to attack them. Or they write how become a zombie.

Please, don't fill games with that crap. A knight in the underworld never will stop to read a book.

It would be weird to see something like one of those written descriptions of a person's last moments before something bad happened to them. Like seeing someone who decided the best time to log his journal was during the flooding of new londo or something.

But, like I said, doesn't have to be that way. They could implement it however they wanted
- An npc dedicated to providing even more cryptic information to items placed on the ground in front of them
- An optional boss guarding some library with only bits and pieces of information scattered around it
- A notes section you can fill in yourself based on what you think references something else

Or whatever else they could do. They already made the conscious design decision to include item descriptions.

I think the issue here is really that while playing these games, it's easy to slip into a fight state. Once you beat a boss after 20 tries, you don't immediately start looking around the cathedral you're in to take in any environmental storytelling or connect something we ready in an item description to what we're doing. You just move on.

And It's fine the way it is, but I think it would be cool if they added more ways to get, remember or understand the information

 

[existensmaximum]

Oh yeah. I love these games, but it's a full-time job trying to decipher anything at all. More or less. I can't be too bothered with that.

 

[skit_data]

I like the mystique of these games, people like Vaatividya also add some interpretations that are part of what is intriguing about the lore. Dark Souls 3 does this in a worse way than the other installments because it feels more like a wierd remix of the previous installments than actual lore.

Might be because I’ve listened to all episodes of Bonfireside Chat at least 3 times.

 

[sublimit]

No keep both lore and gameplay aspects as cryptic as possible. I miss the early Asian import days of Demon's Souls when no one knew WTF was going on with World Tendency. It added more mystery and atmosphere in the game.

 

[Game Filter]

It's my main criticism of this game. It needs to learn to tell a story properly.

 

[GrayFoxPL]

No. I've finished DS2, still don't know what happened.

I love it.

 

[deriks]

Like the "movies" on YouTube?

I'm fine with that.. on YouTube

 

[skneogaf]

I've finished all the from software games starting from demon souls yet I have no idea how or what large parts of stuff in each of the games or means.

Ps5 demon souls has added some stuff to try to help players out.

 

[Con-Z-epT]

The more you are willing to invest in observing and analysing the lore in Soulsborne games the more you get back.

It is a core aspect and a main appeal to me.

As long as they can keep this experience and the feel you get from discovering on your own i see no problem in adding new things. I do fear however that if they would stray to far away from their design philosophies we would end up with something vastly different. Not that this would be bad in general but definitely a paradigm shift which would lead to an estrangement from the core fanbase.

Sooner or later we will see a change in their games nonetheless i think. If it will be an improvement or not has yet to be seen.

 

[junguler]

the gameplay is so good in these games they might as well not include any story at all, i want an easier way to know how to do the quests tho. if we need to go on the internet to know how to play the game you have failed as a game designer, it's in/not_in the game.

 

[Spaceman292]

nobody would play an easy mode because the hard truth is that From games without their difficulty would be a puddle of wank.

Sounds like someone couldn't beat capra

 

[FunkMiller]

No. Miyazaki deliberately made the story obtuse because that’s how he, as a Japanese person with limited English, first discovered Lord Of The Rings - in chunks that he could understand. He said for him it was the effort of discovery that made the story so special for him. I love that whole idea - story through archaeology. Never change.

 

[Clear]

I'm a big proponent of giving the player something to do with all the collected scattered bits of lore in a meta-gamey sense. By which I mean have some sort of system that groups stuff together into topics or sub-categories that cumulatively give bonuses or whatever.

I've been playing Control recently and it bombs you with logs, notes and multimedia clips, most of which are good to great. The problem is that after awhile it turns into a check-box ticking sort of exercise because for all the knowledge you acquire it doesn't really build towards anything. It'd be nice if they were

I always liked the way in the Arkham games the riddler challenges were organized into grids with bonus things being awarded for making a complete row or column of collectibles. I'd like to see this idea extended such that the player could actually sort related items in a puzzle fashion to unlock deeper lore.

 

[Altares13th]

Some way for a more complete understanding of the lore to be achievable in-game.

I don't mean narration, cutscenes or multiple dialogue options. Could be tomes hidden in some hard to reach area or something similar.

Vague item descriptions intrigue and build mystery, but if one wanted to fully absorb the worlds and the events that shape them, a lot of out-of-media searching needs to be done (especially in the souls games).

Yes, yes, It's part of the design that way, but I think they relaxed it a little with Sekiro.

Thoughts?


edit: some ways it could be done

- Take those same cryptic references and slap 60% of them, word for word, in books scattered around a single in-game dilapidated library, and leave the rest in environmental storytelling, dialogue and item descriptions

- An npc dedicated to providing cryptic references to any relationship between two items placed on the ground in front of them

- An optional boss guarding some bestiary with only bits and pieces of information scattered around it

Vaatividya and co make good stuff, but I really don't want to open up youtube for information while I'm playing the damn thing. I already do that with other games to get more information, while in the souls games it's the only feasible way.

Also, no, I don't think an easy mode would help at all.

Anything but the boring walls of text we see in other games. I'm ok with NCPs, visions, cutscenes.

 

[Aion002]

Maybe.

I think they should make the games the way they want, if they they want to do that, that's great... if they do it because the community wants or to warrant more sales, that would be a pity.

Either way, if it is well implemented, that's just fine. It wouldn't affect me.

 

[Mess]

I love the souls game the way they are. Trying to put together the cryptic story/lore is a big part of the fun when I play a From game for the first time. And then I enjoy watching Vaatividya's vids.

That being said I wouldn't mind From going for a more traditionnal storytelling in a future game but I wouldn't want a middle ground.

 

[JoeBudden]

Yes, these games are way too pretentious with how much they demand from gamers.

I work 60 hour weeks, I have a social life, I don't have time to dig through the internet to find out what's going on in the game I play on a completely different platform.

This isn't a FROM thing only. GAAS Games like Apex Legends and Overwatch invest a lot in their constantly updating stories, but if you ever wanted to learn any of it, its not going to be in the game. You need to find shit on YT and on Reddit to understand the lore and story.

 

[TrueLegend]

It is going to be more direct in Elden Ring compared to dark souls. So no and yes doesnt matter cause if you want to play the game you have to deal with the changes they are making which is actually sincere as it is taking account of thier broad audience instead of dumb redditors and vaatividya worshippers. I love how the developer team doesnt give much fuck about that. If it were up to toxic fans of twitter and reddit from software would have gone cyberpunk route. I remember the absolute dumb worshipping of weapon breaking in scholar of the first sin by redditors and other netizens, but i was glad they fixed that. Thats when i knew i can rely on from software, namco bandai on other hand not so much.

 

[AJUMP23]

Dark Souls has given this guy a career. VaatiVidya - YouTube All his videos on the games are great.