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[Vick]

Taking into account the recent, extremely promising ReSTIR optimizations:

ReSTIR PT Enhanced: Algorithmic Advances for Faster and More Robust ReSTIR Path Tracing | NVIDIA Real-Time Graphics Research

<p>Algorithms leveraging ReSTIR-style spatiotemporal reuse have recently proliferated, hugely increasing effective sample count for light transport in real-time ray and path tracers. Many papers have explored novel theoretical improvements, but algorithmic improvements and engineering insights...

research.nvidia.com

Mark Cerny and AMD work on Amethyst focused on integrated Path Tracing into a fully optimized pipeline: (Time-Stamped)



Which between:

• Radiance Cores (taking full control of ray-traversal)
• Neural Arrays
• Universal Compression

Represent a complete paradigm shift, and hopefully integrated NTC could potentially help with one major issue Path Tracing reconstruction has today:

The fact EA just unveiled a F1 25 Demo with ORCA Path Tracing currently running on PS5 Pro at native 1080p and 30fps.

And that the system is currently running Cyberpunk at native 1440p to PSSR 4K using full quality RT reflections (for every trasparent and all non-transparent 0 roughness surfaces), full quality RT shadows, full quality RT AO and two RT GI features at stable 40fps, and a full 60fps mode at same 1440p native res using uncompromised versions of both RT reflections and RT shadows at 60fps looking like this:

Spoiler

Along with, at last, the fact Cerny already expressed desire in past to let go 30fps, how do you think his next system will fare with Path Tracing games?

 

[winjer]

At 30 fps, probably. At 60, maybe, with low base resolution and relying a lot on upscaling.

 

[reinking]

 

[squidilix]

frame gen

 

[Zathalus]

Assuming the new PT optimations are as good as they are supposed to be then 1080p->4k with PSSR at 60fps should be doable. Although I suspect how well depends on the implementation. This is assuming the PT capabilities of the PS6 is around 4080ish level.

 

[SHAKEZ]

Devs will keep using new hardware as a crutch for less optimization, good luck with 60fps games on console.

 

[Vick]

At 30 fps, probably. At 60, maybe, with low base resolution and relying a lot on upscaling.

frame gen

A PS6 unable to natively double the framerate of PS5 Pro software at the same native 1080p res, even with all its new integrated RT/PT hardware and optimized neural pipeline, would be a rather disappointing scenario imo.

If PS5 Pro can apparently do it at 30fps in a game, then of course the PS6 should be able to run a similar title at 60fps. The Radiance Core tech should make it a lot faster at ray tracing than the Pro.

If be surprised if it has a less than 2x improvement in RT performance.

Exactly. What would be even the point?

I will go for the compromise option and say that 40fps with frame gen will be a good standard for the vast majority of people. 40fps sits right between 30fps and 60fps in terms of input latency (25ms) and so is a huge improvement by itself in terms of game feel.

Frame gen will provide better motion clarity, which will smooth out the perception of the lower framerate. I have a hunch that people hate the look of 30fps more than they actually hate the feel of it, which is particularly true on sample-and-hold displays like OLED.

Native 40fps to Frame Gen 60fps would be the last resort, bottom of the barrel scenario for me. This assuming PS6 Frame Gen is even good from the get-go, which I doubt. Would also need a good Reflex option.

Frame Gen used for the eventual high framerate modes, starting from ~60fps with dips, would be much more acceptable imo.

 

[Insane Metal]

LOL, LMAO even.

 

[Killer8]

I will go for the compromise option and say that 40fps with frame gen will be a good standard for the vast majority of people. 40fps sits right between 30fps and 60fps in terms of input latency (25ms) and so is a huge improvement by itself in terms of game feel.

Frame gen will provide better motion clarity, which will smooth out the perception of the lower framerate. I have a hunch that people hate the look of 30fps more than they actually hate the feel of it, which is particularly true on sample-and-hold displays like OLED.

 

[Mownoc]

If PS5 Pro can apparently do it at 30fps in a game, then of course the PS6 should be able to run a similar title at 60fps. The Radiance Core tech should make it a lot faster at ray tracing than the Pro.

If be surprised if it has a less than 2x improvement in RT performance.

 

[DarkShadowXI]

I will go for the compromise option and say that 40fps with frame gen will be a good standard for the vast majority of people. 40fps sits right between 30fps and 60fps in terms of input latency (25ms) and so is a huge improvement by itself in terms of game feel.

Frame gen will provide better motion clarity, which will smooth out the perception of the lower framerate. I have a hunch that people hate the look of 30fps more than they actually hate the feel of it, which is particularly true on sample-and-hold displays like OLED.

Yeah I personally don't care what the framerate is as long as it looks smooth to me.

40FPS with VRR is going to be where this tech ends up on consoles for at least the next 5-10 years.

 

[memoryman3]

No. Path Traced games will be 864p-1080p and 30fps. Will they even run on the PS6 handheld? I guess NOT for late gen games.

 

[Jam Dingo]

I think it'll be roughly equivalent to RT this generation. So no problem in fidelity modes, and generally also there in performance modes but with major compromises. I think there'll be the occasional very ambitious game where performance modes just have extensive RT effects rather than full path tracing.

 

[Exede]

I would love to see in next gen that some of the CPU Power will be used to make NPCs not as stupid anymore

 

[Spyxos]

Below 1080 sure. with heavy upscaling for 60 fps.

 

[Jam Dingo]

I will go for the compromise option and say that 40fps with frame gen will be a good standard for the vast majority of people. 40fps sits right between 30fps and 60fps in terms of input latency (25ms) and so is a huge improvement by itself in terms of game feel.

Frame gen will provide better motion clarity, which will smooth out the perception of the lower framerate. I have a hunch that people hate the look of 30fps more than they actually hate the feel of it, which is particularly true on sample-and-hold displays like OLED.

Certainly the case for me. I don't care about input latency at 30fps, but I can't stand how it looks. I literally only choose performance modes because of how much better they look.

 

[Gaiff]

A PS6 unable to natively double the framerate of PS5 Pro software at the same native 1080p res, even with all its new integrated RT/PT hardware and optimized neural pipeline, would be a rather disappointing scenario imo.

Not every game is F1 2025. Cyberpunk wouldn't run at 1080p30 with RT Overdrive on a Pro. If you're asking can it double the performance of the Pro, almost certainly, but new games will be more demanding and most games running PT are a lot more demanding than F1 25 running PT, so it's not very representative of the average.

 

[HerjansEagleFeeder]

It seems reasonable to assume PS6 will be capable enough, but I remain sceptical. PT is very demanding, however if they find a way to somehow make it run more efficient on the hw we might see a little miracle. Goes without saying that all of this applies to sub 4K internal res.

 

[RoboFu]

No it will need to be 25% more powerful for that.

 

[Vick]

Not every game is F1 2025. Cyberpunk wouldn't run at 1080p30 with RT Overdrive on a Pro. If you're asking can it double the performance of the Pro, almost certainly, but new games will be more demanding and most games running PT are a lot more demanding than F1 25 running PT, so it's not very representative of the average.

For sure, but PS5 Pro is not a hardware specifically dedicated to RT/PT, unlike PS6 should be. Radiance Cores alone should have a massive impact, handling ray-traversal themselves, or what would be even the point?

"We've spent the last two year rethinking the entire Path Tracing pipeline."

 

[Ainem Enamas]

Man how i love new gen threads

 

[Bojji]

At 30 fps, probably. At 60, maybe, with low base resolution and relying a lot on upscaling.

Yeah, 864p should work well with 4k output.

 

[PeteBull]

Look at what 5080 can do, thats max ps6 will be capable of bestcase scenario, likely bit less so more of a 5070ti range, but again, lets be generouns and stick to 5080 aka coding to the metal, topdevstudios, best optimisation etc.

To not look far we can even take example of re9 that runs at 60 maxed, including pt on rtx 5080, just iq has to be way worse vs native 4k or even 1080p dlssed to 4k:
As u can see here 5080 cant hold stable 60 maxed with pt even on dlss perf upscaled to 4k , and thats 1080p native, u need either fake frames(fgx2 doesnt look/feel too terrible if u play with joypad-source- i got 5080 myself and re9 too obviously) or lower native res to 720p aka dlss ultra perf

 

[rodrigolfp]

Wth "full quality" even means here??

 

[Bojji]

Based on 4080 output, there absolutely could be 60fps games with PT.

But developers are developers... So I expect mostly 30fps games with PT.

 

[Bonfires Down]

Path tracing at 1080p60 doesn't sound unreasonable to me at all. I don't know very much about path tracing or how demanding it is, but I'm sure devs can tweak it to make it run well.

 

[J Required]

No it will need to be 25% more powerful for that.

Add windows bloat to that 25% and hope for the best

 

[Pedro Motta]

 

[Polaris]

What do you mean by "games"?

 

[MazingerDUDE]

PT or not, I think PS6 games will mostly stay 1080P with PSSR3 upscaling things to 4K, as anything higher seems overkill even with the PSSR2.

 

[Bojji]

PT or not, I think PS6 games will mostly stay 1080P with PSSR3 upscaling things to 4K, as anything higher seems overkill even with the PSSR2.

Yeah, 1440p in CP and Saros seems like a waste with pssr2.

 

[J Required]

The power is there, depends on the devs to allocate resources for it! Like every graphics technology ever.

 

[Vick]

PT or not, I think PS6 games will mostly stay 1080P with PSSR3 upscaling things to 4K, as anything higher seems overkill even with the PSSR2.

If below (considerably at least) 1080p and at 40-30fps, I wouldn't probably bother with Path Tracing at all.

An Unreal Engine 5 free from current gen limitations, at high resolutions and framerate would be more than enough for me. Afterall, Matrix Awakens still has the most impressive visuals I've seen and, and despite lacking complex gameplay systems it is fully playable on current gen base PS5 at 1080p and 60fps. With crisp textures, and none of the issues seen with heavy RR usage.

Actually, I would personally take UE5 on next gen over some heavily compromised/denoised-to-death Path Tracing implementations. For example, I understand the technical feat, but some footage in here look legitimately horrendous:

Wth "full quality" even means here??

Means a non-optimized, customized version of those RT features, if we exclude the fact reflections are disabled on diffuse, rough surfaces.
Just means they're not dowgraded from the full quality PC version. Reflections are full resolution and cover every item along with their shadows just as they on PC. Unlike Insomniac reflections.
Actually, if anything PS5 Pro RT shadows have a greater coverage than PC version.

This is the case for Path Tracing Overdrive as well.

 

[Wilhelm_85]

I voted LOL, LMAO even, but I'm sure they will get there with the output image using PSSR from 720p/1080p and frame generation (minimum 2x).

Not even the best PC available right now can do path tracing at 60 fps in high-end games without heavy upscaling and often frame generation.

I highly doubt the PS6 will perform even close to the current best PC. Guessing it will be closer to a 5070 or 5070ti optimistically.

I really do hope they get there. Path tracing becoming the norm in game development one day will be incredible.

 

[rodrigolfp]

If below (considerably at least) 1080p and at 40-30fps, I wouldn't probably bother with Path Tracing at all.

An Unreal Engine 5 free from current gen limitations, at high resolutions and framerate would be more than enough for me. Afterall, Matrix Awakens still has the most impressive visuals I've seen and, and despite lacking complex gameplay systems it is fully playable on current gen base PS5 at 1080p and 60fps. With crisp textures, and none of the issues seen with heavy RR usage.

Actually, I would personally take UE5 on next gen over some heavily compromised/denoised-to-death Path Tracing implementations. For example, I understand the technical feat, but some footage in here look legitimately horrendous:




Means a non-optimized, customized version of those RT features, if we exclude the fact reflections are disabled on diffuse, rough surfaces.
Just means they're not dowgraded from the full quality PC version. Reflections are full resolution and cover every item along with their shadows just as they on PC. Unlike Insomniac reflections.
Actually, if anything PS5 Pro RT shadows have a greater coverage than PC version.

This is the case for Path Tracing Overdrive as well.

There are several things "wrong" on that PC RT shot. More blurry, missing grass and shadows.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Some games, yes. Is the 5070 running some games with PT at 60fps?

 

[Bojji]

I voted LOL, LMAO even, but I'm sure they will get there with the output image using PSSR from 720p/1080p and frame generation (minimum 2x).

Not even the best PC available right now can do path tracing at 60 fps in high-end games without heavy upscaling and often frame generation.

I highly doubt the PS6 will perform even close to the current best PC. Guessing it will be closer to a 5070 or 5070ti optimistically.

I really do hope they get there. Path tracing becoming the norm in game development one day will be incredible.

No one talks about PT without upscaling here.

There are several things "wrong" on that PC RT shot. More blurry, missing grass and shadows.

That's how it looks, they changed some things in the console version.

 

[Bojji]

Some games, yes. Is the 5070 running some games with PT at 60fps?

Yes, with the right settings.

 

[rodrigolfp]

No one talks about PT without upscaling here.



That's how it looks, they changed some things in the console version.

For shadows and grass maybe, but how the hell DLSS 4.5 can be much more blurry there??

 

[Bojji]

For shadows and grass maybe, but how the hell DLSS 4.5 can be much more blurry there??

I think it's with in game dlss4.

But shadows and foliage are like that, I confirmed it myself.

 

[MazingerDUDE]

If below (considerably at least) 1080p and at 40-30fps

No it won't. You're forgetting one thing. The frame gen.

We'll have full fat frame gen support on PS6, so instead of 40fps 'balanced' mode, we'll have 120fps mode with 3x framegen.

 

[rodrigolfp]

I think it's with in game dlss4.

But shadows and foliage are like that, I confirmed it myself.

Change the dll for 4.5 and use the last preset.

 

[Sticks]

No

 

[Bojji]

Change the dll for 4.5 and use the last preset.

Yeah but it won't work with ray reconstruction (that will force 4.0).

 

[ChiefDada]

I think many of you are taking the 30fps quote out of context. The actual render time for PS5 Pro with the prototype path traced was 23.36ms or ~43fps. The devs are saying that that is sufficient for a locked 30fps experience. When translating this data to infer PS5 Pro vs PS6 performance needed for PT, I think it's fair to say PS6 would need to be circa 50-60% faster than Pro across the board to guarantee locked 60fps (64-68fps), and that assumes no performance improvement for next gen PSSR.

 

[Puscifer]

Just said this in another thread


Several times that it seems that current PT implementations seem like proprietary Nvidia shit. Why is RT that's neutral and non Nvidia sponsored working well on AMD but internal RT solutions show no difference and this PT solution (regarding EA F1), again developed internally, shows the same pattern when you get Nvidia out of the picture.

Saying it as a 5080 owner.

 

[rodrigolfp]

Yeah but it won't work with ray reconstruction (that will force 4.0).

PS5 Pro doesn't have ray reconstrution anyway.

 

[Vick]

There are several things "wrong" on that PC RT shot. More blurry, missing grass and shadows.

It's all in the other Thread about Cyberpunk Pro patch.
What you see are RR side effects, such as excessive blurring.

Spoiler

The missing PC shadows are due to a denser BVH used on Pro.

Spoiler

PC Rasterized:

PC RT:

PC PT:

 

[Bojji]

I think many of you are taking the 30fps quote out of context. The actual render time for PS5 Pro with the prototype path traced was 23.36ms or ~43fps. The devs are saying that that is sufficient for a locked 30fps experience. When translating this data to infer PS5 Pro vs PS6 performance needed for PT, I think it's fair to say PS6 would need to be circa 50-60% faster than Pro across the board to guarantee locked 60fps (64-68fps), and that assumes no performance improvement for next gen PSSR.

PS6 will easily be 2x of pro (if not more) in heavy RT, mark my words.

 

[Aenima]

With upscalling, thers no reason not to.