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[angrod14]

With the PS4/Xbox One many assumed X86 would remain as the base architecture for consoles from then on. PS5/SeX sort of cemented that assumption, but then Apple Silicon happened and they left Intel looking like those monkeys from 2001: ASO in the prescence of an alien monolith.

With consoles being closed systems, having a lot of restrictions in terms of efficiency, size, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers ditch X86 and move to ARM as these improve. What do you think? How would this affect backwards compatibility?

 

[64bitmodels]

nah

 

[LordOfChaos]

Apple Silicon caught everyone with their pants down in 2020, but AMD and Intel have both recovered and even beat it in single and multicore performance both

It's still impressive in that it draws literally a fraction the 1T power to get there, but for larger consoles it's probably worth burning a few extra watts for carrying forward full BC. They care more about full load power than low use power anyway.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

With the PS4/Xbox One many assumed X86 would remain as the base architecture for consoles from then on. PS5/SeX sort of cemented that assumption, but then Apple Silicon happened and they left Intel looking like those monkeys from 2001: ASO in the prescence of an alien monolith.

With consoles being closed systems, having a lot of restrictions in terms of efficiency, size, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if manufacturers ditch X86 and move to ARM as these improve. What do you think? How would this affect backwards compatibility?

First of all as has been said time and time again ISA (ARM/x86) doesn't matter. What matters is microarchitecture (Intel Core/AMD Zen etc.), If Apple had an x86 license they would have made an amazing x86 CPU but they can't get that license so they went with ARM, one day RISCV will eat ARMs lunch and be far more common than arm is today but for now if you want to make a high performance CPU yourself you're generally stuck licensing something from ARM.

The issue with Intel Core vs Apples M series is that Apple has a significant process advantage as they use the latest most cutting edge node from TSMC. Normally this wasn't a problem for Intel because Intel fabs were more advanced than TSMC until Intel messed up their 10nm node and TSMC pulled off their equivalent 7N node. It's actually impressive to see how performant something like Intel Meteor Lake is vs ARM CPUs like Apples M3 and Qualcomm's Snapdragon X Elite despite Intel being at such a process node disadvantage.


The other issue is the purpose of the design. Apple designs their CPUs to be used by... Apple and only apple i.e Apple doesn't have consumers for their CPUs and they largely go in low tdp devices like phones and laptops with a few "higher" performance desktop products for professionals. In contrast Intel makes their CPUs for companies that buy them (like AMD sells their CPUs to Sony for the PS5) and as a result they make their CPUs for all sorts of devices from low tdp handhelds to gigantic server farms and super computers that use massive amounts of power.


Intels CPUs must therefore fit every use case and scale up far beyond anything Apple does. This means that Intels CPUs can't be as specialized as Apples and can't have any funny or wonky designs because if customers don't like them they won't buy them. Apple doesn't care they can do crazy stuff like make really wide CPUs and have lots of stuff soldered in as well as have unified memory because at the end of the day Apple consumers will buy whether they are good or bad, see: how bad Apple GPUs are compared to Nvidia yet Apple consumers continued to buy Apple despite Apple removing Nvidia as an option for Apple devices. Intel does not have this luxury but despite this Intel makes some incredibly good and affordable CPUs.

 

[El Muerto]

For consoles, maybe, just depends on cost and price/performance. The Apple M1 Max estimated cost for the die is around $235, it can run recent PC games on medium-high settings. If AMD can make a competitive ARM chip for gaming for less then we could see them in next gen but it's cutting it close as new consoles are likely 3-4 years away. The new chips will likely go into handhelds like the next Steam Deck.

 

[Celcius]

I say no chance, especially if they want to keep BC

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

I'd like to add that Xbox is considering going ARM next gen.

 

[Imtjnotu]

Arm is coming.. If AMD doesn't get its head out it's ass RiSC V will walk all over them

 

[gothmog]

If it gives us lower cost, lower heat (quieter), and performance why would you not want ARM?

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

making games on arm will be easier and cheaper?

 

[onnextflix5]

Maybe on future handheld, where power budget is important, I can Sony or Microsoft designing a apu for handheld,

 

[jroc74]

Another ARM topic and once again the Switch using ARM gets overlooked.

I doubt Sony does it. MS? They are in that throw everything at the wall and see what sticks phase so...

 

[Topher]

If it gives us lower cost, lower heat (quieter), and performance why would you not want ARM?

Wouldn't backward compatibiilty be an issue? I mean.....if all else isn't an issue, I think I'm ok with that, but not sure about the performance side of this.

 

[German Hops]

Sure

 

[gothmog]

Wouldn't backward compatibiilty be an issue? I mean.....if all else isn't an issue, I think I'm ok with that, but not sure about the performance side of this.

BC is always going to be an issue, but between streaming and emulation we might be in a good place.

Performance also depends what you're looking for. A 12 hour battery life Steam Deck? Probably more feasible with ARM. More raw compute to overcome CPU bottlenecks with less cooling is also possible. Blowing away a $3k PC? Probably not.

 

[LavitzSlambert]

Certainly not this upcoming generation. Might get there one day though, it will really depend on whether or not real games on mobile ever take off.

 

[willothedog]

 

[winjer]

 

[Kenpachii]

BC and PC ports say no.

 

[winjer]

Apple Silicon caught everyone with their pants down in 2020, but AMD and Intel have both recovered and even beat it in single and multicore performance both

It's still impressive in that it draws literally a fraction the 1T power to get there, but for larger consoles it's probably worth burning a few extra watts for carrying forward full BC. They care more about full load power than low use power anyway.

But the reason why Apple managed to do that is not because of ISA, its due to architecture and process node.
On the one hand, Apple chips tend to be wider with lower clocks. This is an architectural decision. The advantage is that having lower clocks means lower power usage, but it means bigger chips, which means lower yields and higher cost.
Apple is also the first or one of the firsts to use TSMC's newest process nodes. They pay a premium for it, but it results in having the best tech sooner than anyone else. It also helps that Intel screwed up with their adoption of EUV.

 

[crackajack]

With Switch2 almost certainly using again ARM so many games anyway already getting one ARM port, I can see MS and there virtualisation stuff moved over to ARM as well. I guess platforms are anyway not that easily comparable, x86 on PC is hardly the same as x86 on consoles with the whole other ram situation, but some lessons must be similar?
Some Intel console would be interesting too, but Nvidia doing another high end console would be more interesting. This time not only GPU provider but doing all. Can Tegra be scaled up with chiplet design? With the success of Switch and Steamdeck as well, I can imagine Nvidia doing another Shield (maybe even Switch2 compatible) and as cherry on top bulk that system up for a stationary console too. Either also in cooperation with Nintendo, or for one of the otehr two, more likely MS. Would be at least interesting, if AMD's cheaper parts will be left behind for the likely just better parts. The gap with RT and DLSS seems to be widening, so AMD might just not be good enough anymore, even if (much) cheaper.

 

[killatopak]

I'd like to add that Xbox is considering going ARM next gen.

Isn’t that just for their streaming platform?

 

[TrebleShot]

Yes, the power to perfomance balance and mixed with streaming and size of the devices mean its a no brainer.
Youll have tiny streaming boxes that are pretty and quiet.

Possible they have a traditional console for local play with a powerful version of ARM think M4/5 in mac terms then a basic version with a controller.

 

[Badlucktroll]

If Ps6 goes arm, will it be able to finally emulate ps3? CELL is PowerPC architecture, right? Would it be easier to emulate PowerPC on x86 or arm?

 

[Audiophile]

Not PS6, but I think PS7 goes to ARM/RISC. I think the vast majority of devices will shift almost entirely to ARM/RISC in the 2030s.

 

[winjer]

If Ps6 goes arm, will it be able to finally emulate ps3? CELL is PowerPC architecture, right? Would it be easier to emulate PowerPC on x86 or arm?

No, it would be just as hard, just different. They are very different ISAs. But worst yet, is that the CELL is a in-order execution pipeline.
ARM and X86 are all out-of-order execution.

 

[SScorpio]

No, it would be just as hard, just different. They are very different ISAs. But worst yet, is that the CELL is a in-order execution pipeline.
ARM and X86 are all out-of-order execution.

The Steam Deck which is based off Zen 2 can handle at least some PS3. It's the same architecture as the PS5, but less cores, fewer GPU compute units, and lower clocks.

If the PS6 sticks with AMD, unless there's a big change it should have AVX 512 support which was introduced in Zen 4. That had a large performance improvement on PS3 emulation.

 

[winjer]

The Steam Deck which is based off Zen 2 can handle at least some PS3. It's the same architecture as the PS5, but less cores, fewer GPU compute units, and lower clocks.

If the PS6 sticks with AMD, unless there's a big change it should have AVX 512 support which was introduced in Zen 4. That had a large performance improvement on PS3 emulation.

That was not the question I was answering.

 

[DaGwaphics]

Apple Silicon caught everyone with their pants down in 2020, but AMD and Intel have both recovered and even beat it in single and multicore performance both

It's still impressive in that it draws literally a fraction the 1T power to get there, but for larger consoles it's probably worth burning a few extra watts for carrying forward full BC. They care more about full load power than low use power anyway.

Yeah, no real point as long as X86 can do the job and match performance per $ and performance per transistor. Now, if Arm developed a notable advantage in either of those areas while maintaining performance, you'd likely see a switch. BC shouldn't be that hard on ARM because X86 emulation on ARM is quite mature.

 

[MarkMe2525]

Just my guess, but because of the abstraction layer that Xbox games run upon, they are more suited to make a move like this. They also have to be radically different than a PS6 if there will be any point in bringing new hardware. In saying that, I'm pretty ignorant to such things.

 

[Topher]

BC is always going to be an issue, but between streaming and emulation we might be in a good place.

Performance also depends what you're looking for. A 12 hour battery life Steam Deck? Probably more feasible with ARM. More raw compute to overcome CPU bottlenecks with less cooling is also possible. Blowing away a $3k PC? Probably not.

BC is much more of an issue changing CPU architectures. Moving to ARM is going to require ports of existing games whereas sticking with whatever iteration of the next RDNA can be handle BC at the system level just as it was going from PS4 to PS5. ARM would also require more effort porting console games to PC.

I'm just wondering if, at the same price point, ARM chips can outperform AMD APUs in consoles. Hard to find benchmarks on this since very few PC/console games seem to run natively on ARM.

 

[tusharngf]

Yes.. future is ARM not x86.

 

[Topher]

 

[gothmog]

BC is much more of an issue changing CPU architectures. Moving to ARM is going to require ports of existing games whereas sticking with whatever iteration of the next RDNA can be handle BC at the system level just as it was going from PS4 to PS5. ARM would also require more effort porting console games to PC.

I'm just wondering if, at the same price point, ARM chips can outperform AMD APUs in consoles. Hard to find benchmarks on this since very few PC/console games seem to run natively on ARM.

In my line of work ARM based servers are both cheaper and have better performance than its x86 equivalent. That's not for free, though. It may not be worth the cost to port the workload but the tools and libraries are getting much better. Probably mostly thanks to Apple going to the M series chips which pushed a ton of tech to support ARM as a target architecture in order to work on MacBooks.

So yes it can outperform but I'm not sure what the cost would be to get the GPU performing.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

What benefit do you imagine there’d be from switching to ARM? There’s nothing magical about ARM that makes it dramatically better suited for consoles. Sony/MS will go with whatever gives them the best bang for the buck. If AMD can give them a sweet deal on a x86 SoC then they’ll go with that.

"risc is going to change everything"

lol. Seeing console warriors with barely a layperson’s understanding of microarchitecture giving their impassioned rants about CISC vs RISC, ARM vs x86 vs PowerPC, the awesomeness of Cell, etc. is always hilarious.

 

[SScorpio]

BC is much more of an issue changing CPU architectures. Moving to ARM is going to require ports of existing games whereas sticking with whatever iteration of the next RDNA can be handle BC at the system level just as it was going from PS4 to PS5. ARM would also require more effort porting console games to PC.

I'm just wondering if, at the same price point, ARM chips can outperform AMD APUs in consoles. Hard to find benchmarks on this since very few PC/console games seem to run natively on ARM.

ARM is just the CPU, and the Apple M series show it can be very powerful. But you'd still need a GPU and that's where Nvidia and AMD are still the kings. Intel has started to compete with Arc. But otherwise you'll need to stick with PowerVR or MediaTek or whatever other GPUs mobile devices are using.

And for all of Apple's advertising that the M1 Max matched the 3090 when you kneecapped the 3090 to the same power budget of the M1's GPU. Once you opened it up, any modern discrete GPU will beat it.

But the Apple M series, and ARM based servers are different from games. They are heavily multi threaded with a bunch of low power cores, with gaming some games are making use of tons of cores, but many are still single core constrained. So it comes down to running one thing really fast, or running a bunch of things pretty fast.

You of course can game on ARM, people do it daily on the Switch, phones, and tablets. But gaming focused mobile devices with the latest ARM SOCs still can't touch the current consoles. Art design and diminishing returns could make that power difference a mute point in a few years. But RISC and ARM have been heralding the death of x86 for over 30 years since x86 is the worst architecture ever. But it's still here while Dec Alpha, Itanium, and PowerPC aren't.

 

[mitch1971]

I mean, what 'ARM would it do?

 

[old-parts]

Moving to Arm system on chip is a cost calculation, will it deliver more than sticking with AMD's current x86 SoC's.

Sony - unlikely due to their operating system, production tools and backward compatibility all tailored for AMD's x86 hardware.

Microsoft - maybe as MS has their operating system and production tools already ported to Arm with x86 emulation. Plus MS wants Arm laptop PC's to be successful in the market so all the work is already being done for that, Xbox being able to run Arm is a simple by-product.

The exclusivity agreement MS had with Qualcomm comes to an end this year and AMD/Nvidia are already rumoured to have Arm SoC's in development for PC's so a console Arm SoC from AMD is also a possibility.

Arm cores are not bound to any GPU so AMD can supply whatever Arm cores its customers want with a RDNA GPU if Sony/MS thinks it's worth it.

 

[CuNi]

To be fair I am still hoping we abandon x86-64 even for Desktop PCs and go ARM all the way, or invent something else.
I feel like x86 is so bloated, we should've moved on from it years ago already.

 

[M1chl]

Not sure if next gen, but next next one most likely, since ARM is much cheaper to licence and produce, than x86, where there is a lot of dead weight which you are carrying

 

[willothedog]

Hack the planet!

 

[Topher]

What benefit do you imagine there’d be from switching to ARM? There’s nothing magical about ARM that makes it dramatically better suited for consoles. Sony/MS will go with whatever gives them the best bang for the buck. If AMD can give them a sweet deal on a x86 SoC then they’ll go with that.


lol. Seeing console warriors with barely a layperson’s understanding of microarchitecture giving their impassioned rants about CISC vs RISC, ARM vs x86 vs PowerPC, the awesomeness of Cell, etc. is always hilarious.

Certainly not claiming to have any more tech insight than anyone else on this stuff, but I think you are dead on that the bottom line with a console (that doesn't sell at a profit on the hardware) is going to be the cost. To make a switch like this I think one would have to look at this holistically from a cost-benefit perspective with the understanding that there is an expectation that ANY new console is going to outperform the previous version (as well as the competiton) and continue to play the entire current library day one........all while staying under a $500-ish price point. Seems like a tall order to me. Especially when taking into consideration that PC expansion has become a big part of console's overall strategy.

 

[DonkeyPunchJr]

ARM is just the CPU, and the Apple M series show it can be very powerful. But you'd still need a GPU and that's where Nvidia and AMD are still the kings. Intel has started to compete with Arc. But otherwise you'll need to stick with PowerVR or MediaTek or whatever other GPUs mobile devices are using.

And for all of Apple's advertising that the M1 Max matched the 3090 when you kneecapped the 3090 to the same power budget of the M1's GPU. Once you opened it up, any modern discrete GPU will beat it.

But the Apple M series, and ARM based servers are different from games. They are heavily multi threaded with a bunch of low power cores, with gaming some games are making use of tons of cores, but many are still single core constrained. So it comes down to running one thing really fast, or running a bunch of things pretty fast.

You of course can game on ARM, people do it daily on the Switch, phones, and tablets. But gaming focused mobile devices with the latest ARM SOCs still can't touch the current consoles. Art design and diminishing returns could make that power difference a moot point in a few years. But RISC and ARM have been heralding the death of x86 for over 30 years since x86 is the worst architecture ever. But it's still here while Dec Alpha, Itanium, and PowerPC aren't.

This isn’t exactly true, Apple M3 leads in single threaded performance as well.

Apple M3 Leads in PassMark's Single-Thread CPU Benchmark, But There is a Catch

And it's the same catch as always...

www.tomshardware.com

At any rate I don’t think that even matters, because I don’t think that raw CPU performance or even performance/watt is anywhere near the top priority for a console.

#1, by far, is performance per $. Sony and MS are going to go with whatever gives them the best SoC for the price. That’s going to depend more on their business dealings than on technology. (And GPU performance will weigh a lot more heavily than CPU performance when determining which one is “best”)

And #2 is probably going to be ease of backwards compatibility. I’m not an expert on the technical details of what it takes to emulate a CPU, but I’ll just say that I highly doubt they’d take e.g. a 10% performance uplift if that meant it takes a huge software effort to test and patch in support for previous gen games.

 

[Gameplay Gods Bless]

Isn’t that just for their streaming platform?

No it was for their next gen consoles. They highlighted options for the hardware stick with AMD Zen or go ARM. For the GPU they had 2 options, stick with RDNA or license the RDNA ip from AMD which was a bit depressing because the hope is that if they go ARM Nvidia is then an option but according to that document which was dated 2022 iirc, the options are arm with RDNA bolted on top of all AMD with a native Zen+RDNA implementation like what they have now.

Things can change but time is ticking. Also their streaming platforms is just a slightly modified Xbox, they want to add PCs to the mix so you can stream PC exclusives but they haven't yet.

 

[cartman414]

To be fair I am still hoping we abandon x86-64 even for Desktop PCs and go ARM all the way, or invent something else.
I feel like x86 is so bloated, we should've moved on from it years ago already.

Really depends on whether ARM scales as well up to 125W upward a la top Intel/AMD desktop chips.

There is a variant of the x64 without the legacy stuff, x86S, that Intel has just in case.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Nintendo Switch 1 and 2 are already ARM, so your question is like asking if cars will go electric

 

[angrod14]

Nintendo Switch 1 and 2 are already ARM, so your question is like asking if cars will go electric

I’m sure you understood what I meant with the question, even if I wasn’t very precise when asking it.

And we don’t know shit about Switch 2, not even the name.

 

[Futaleufu]

I've seen the "ARM is the future" threads in NeoGAF for years

 

[Unknown Soldier]

I’m sure you understood what I meant with the question, even if I wasn’t very precise when asking it.

And we don’t know shit about Switch 2, not even the name.

I guess I have a question for you:

Why do you not consider the Switch a console?

 

[Chiggs]

ARM is the new trigger word for PC fanboys…and perhaps now console warriors?

I think it’s entirely likely, especially given ARM’s cheaper manufacturing process.