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[Griss]

But this explanation is also for young Muslim men that join ISIS.

Yes, this is commonly used a reason ISIS is so easily able to recruit young men. And personally, I think it makes sense, though it's only a small part of the picture.

The other part is that people want to feel like they have a stake in something. A stake in society, a stake in some group. A cause. A way to make your shitty life meaningful.

ISIS offers that, plus the chance to get laid. So they catch a lot of frustrated young men that way and brainwash them.

Looking back at these young white guys getting radicalised, what strikes me more than the sexual frustration is the lack of a group, of a cause. Each minority in america sees itself as part of a new generation pushing towards greater equality, and therein lies their meaning. Women, too, have this sense that they are breaking boundaries and progressing towards some brighter day. You can read any liberal paper and see articles from minority or women authors rallying their peers towards some cause or another - and it's a great thing. It gives life meaning.

But young white men have a total vacuum of that kind of in-built meaning. There's no group identity, no struggle to win, no battles to be fought. Is it any surprise that the angrier and more isolated among them have invented causes to rage against? Whether they are completely fucking meaningless (ethics in games journalism) or utterly terrifying and dangerous (white nationalism), these dudes don't belong anywhere, and they create these groups to belong.

The obvious reply will be 'White guys don't belong anywhere because they belong everywhere - it's their fucking country!' I get that reply, but that's not what it feels like to some useless broke no-talent 19-year old on the ground. He just feels isolated and without meaning. He sees all these minorities rallying for justice and thinks he wishes he had a cause like that. A group to rally with. He's actually envious. And he picks up the torch, finds some friends... and goes off to fight those groups, since the only battle for a white guy in America to fight in his own name is against the loss of status and privilege.

 

[Airola]

Young white men need to get laid more often. Not even kidding, if you want to combat this by the back door (so to speak, ie without creating confrontational programs, aimed explicitly at de-radicalisation, and which would be easy targets for politicised misinterpretation [liberal conspiracy!]), then direct your efforts towards getting young (white) men into happy, fulfilling sexual relationships ASAP.

I think one of the problems is the overglorification of both sexuality and romance. People are almost constantly encountering someone telling how we should reach for a hyper-romantic relationship and how we should experience mind-shattering sexual experiences. It's on books, movies, news, adverts, everywhere. Romance and sexuality are treated as if they are a prize for something. People start to expect that from life. Some people have them and feel like they are on top of the world and that somehow that makes them more successful than others. Some people struggle to achieve that and they become frustrated.

Basically what you are saying, that "young white men need to get laid more often", has the potential to make it worse as it treats sex as being something that corrects the problems. It tells those who are actually having sexual relationships and being douches because of it that their "achievements" in the sexual front are valid and a good reason to brag. And it tells those who struggle to be in sexual relationships that they truly are fucked up.


The real issue is somewhere deeper.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I think one of the problems is the overglorification of both sexuality and romance. People are almost constantly encountering someone telling how we should reach for a hyper-romantic relationship and how we should experience mind-shattering sexual experiences. It's on books, movies, news, adverts, everywhere. Romance and sexuality are treated as if they are a prize for something. People start to expect that from life. Some people have them and feel like they are on top of the world and that somehow that makes them more successful than others. Some people struggle to achieve that and they become frustrated.

Basically what you are saying, that "young white men need to get laid more often", has the potential to make it worse as it treats sex as being something that corrects the problems. It tells those who are actually having sexual relationships and being douches because of it that their "achievements" in the sexual front are valid and a good reason to brag. And it tells those who struggle to be in sexual relationships that they truly are fucked up.


The real issue is somewhere deeper.

Better yet, give them the tools not to act like creepy narcissists (always talking about how much nicer they are, how much smarter they are, how much more genuine they are, etc. etc. etc.), and maybe they'll find a fulfilling relationship on their own.

A bunch of these guys are delusional. I've known countless people like this, from running in fairly nerdy circles. They're constantly frustrated that they can't get the beautiful women they think they deserve, they have all these reasons for why they're elite examples of manhood compared to the apes who manage to actually date/get laid, and they relentlessly attack "substandard" women who might actually be interested in them if they weren't such pieces of shit.

Getting these people in relationships is a further off problem than what actually needs to be solved, I think. There's a ton of delusional entitlement to root through before these guys should get anywhere close to a relationship with an actual woman.

I've been personally burned trying to jump an acquaintance too far down the line, bringing him along to a party and introducing him to people... and his reaction was to pinch a girl's ass without consent, leading to her rightfully making a scene. And the dude was unrepentant. He saw her dancing with another guy (who she happened to know) and thought she would be fine with it.

That's the mindset we're dealing with. They don't understand that women could possibly choose to get involved with someone besides them. They draw all sorts of fucked up conclusions when they see women flirt or be openly attracted to someone.

Good posts, you guys.

 

[zabuni]

Better yet, give them the tools not to act like creepy narcissists (always talking about how much nicer they are, how much smarter they are, how much more genuine they are, etc. etc. etc.), and maybe they'll find a fulfilling relationship on their own.

I'd think that except I've known enough creepy narcissists who still get laid regularly. Attractiveness is pretty orthogonal to morality, sad to say. Which is part of their frustration. Nobody wants to tell the unlucky to lose 50 pounds, get a decent hair cut, read some fashion guides, and get a hobby besides World of Warcraft. So we tell them how to be better human beings, not ones more attractive to the opposite sex. We answer the easier question.

Going back through history, young men of almost any culture were an issue. Rash, not fully matured, they are easily wedded to causes. Enough privilege not to be directly oppressed by society, but not enough privilege to actively be able to change society.

Society usually fixed this by through intense societal pressure to marry on women, and sending them off to war. I like neither of these ideas.

 

[Angelus Errare]

Let's do everything possible to get little Bobby into a relationship so he can fuck instead of him just not being a shitty human being on his own. Wtf. Like how much more codling are we going to suggest for white boys? Get every advantage possible in western society and we're the one that still have to bend over backwards to get them laid too just to try to avoid them going stupid and killing innocent people.

This.

 

[Amibguous Cad]

What's extra awesome is how you can be an Eric Harris-esque outright piece of human refuse, the actual bully who made people's lives hell, going around calling everybody a niggerfaggot, running targeted sociopathic campaigns against other kids... and still have the overwhelming narrative about you be "wow we should have listened to these poor bullied kids and maybe this wouldn't have happened!"

The posthumous privilege we allow a certain type of murderer is vomit-inducing.

Maybe we should extend the same compassion to minorities who commit crimes rather than having the solution be treating everyone equally shittily?

 

[God Dayumm]

Young white men need to get laid more often. Not even kidding, if you want to combat this by the back door (so to speak, ie without creating confrontational programs, aimed explicitly at de-radicalisation, and which would be easy targets for politicised misinterpretation [liberal conspiracy!]), then direct your efforts towards getting young (white) men into happy, fulfilling sexual relationships ASAP.

So, arranged marriages? lol. I want to see neckbeard redpillers forced to marry obese tumblrinas. Entertainment for centuries

 

[ugaboga232]

Two articles for those interested in why there is a weird sex/violence link only in men.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3380604/#!po=40.5172

http://www.klab.caltech.edu/koch/CR/CR-Hypothalamus-11.pdf

And a bonus video of mouse mind control on this very region

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PTWsr8UuSnc

Telling someone to just get over what they feel is a crippling isolation is like telling someone don't let your brain atrophy into early on set dementia in extended periods of solitary confinement. In reality you are right, no justification for these heinous acts or even the culture and bubble that catalyzes them. But as we will continue to learn in politics and the world, to the brain, perception is often reality.

Since people seem to be interested in the sex/radicalization link.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Culture gotta change. If you taught from birth that you will stay winning then taking an L can be rage inducing.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

or they could find a nice awkward woman who also has "poor genetics" instead of getting so worked up that anime isn't real that they shoot up a mosque

This is where the whole entitlement aspect comes in.

If you think it's that simple, we're talking about two different groups of people.

And, on the subject of entitlement, I think Griss put it better than I could:

Sex is incredibly serious, incredibly important. Young men put a tremendous amount of value on being able to get laid and it makes 100% sense to me why they do so.

Reasons why the ability to get laid is important:
1. People need affection and companionship to be happy. Romantic affection is gated behind the ability to get laid and satisfy a partner.
2. Do you dream of starting a family one day? Won't happen if you never get laid.
3. Your respect in a male group will be damaged by this issue, leading to self-esteem issues. If that group rejects you your social circle can crash around you leading to isolation. Your friends can end up excluding you from mixed-gender events if you can't get laid - it becomes awkward for the guys who are, and hinders their efforts. I've seen this first-hand from high school to two colleges. That guy people are happy to have around unless they're going somewhere to party or get laid, in which case he doesn't get an invite.
4. Your sense of physical self-worth will be damaged by not being able to get laid, leading to body image issues.
5. Having a girlfriend is often a guy's best way of being exposed to female circles of friends. Without this continuing exposure, guys can fail to understand and sympathise with girls, and start to 'other' them on these toxic sites online. No, that's not a good excuse, but yes I believe it happens.

And so on and so forth. Sex is a tremendously important part of human life. Someone who has never had any success in that area is naturally bound to be extremely frustrated, upset and demoralised. Entitlement has nothing to do with it. Nobody has the right to get laid - and I really believe that young men understand that - but that doesn't stop it being extremely upsetting for those who can't.

 

[Nafai1123]

It's too late for those who are already radicalized. They are too far gone to be productive members of society.

But in regards to children and preventing the radicalization of our future, there are absolutely steps that can be taken. We need programs for all youth to increase socialization with other racial groups and the opposite sex. Children who grow up with diversity are better equipped to handle diversity. Boys who grow up socializing with girls will have a better understanding of women as individuals. If you have children, do not let them isolate themselves. We are social creatures and require socialization to properly function in society.

 

[Astral Dog]

i was going to point that unfortunately lots of white women supportd Trump too,but after reading the op damn this is ugly,thats a full on violent ,sexist culture :S

 

[Pancake Mix]

Young white men need to get laid more often.

Yes, yes we do.

No, seriously, it would help.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I feel sympathy for young white men who lack any sort of intimacy or love in their lives. I do!

But yeah, that's a shitty explanation for terroristic violence. Let alone an excuse.

 

[Pancake Mix]

I feel sympathy for young white men who lack any sort of intimacy or love in their lives. I do!

But yeah, that's a shitty explanation for terroristic violence. Let alone an excuse.

I agree 100 percent, but the isolation that a lot of whites are feeling, especially in the US....

To quote myself from earlier:

A large segment of white middle-aged Americans has suffered a startling rise in its death rate since 1999, according to a review of statistics published Monday that shows a sharp reversal in decades of progress toward longer lives.

The mortality rate for white men and women ages 45-54 with less than a college education increased markedly between 1999 and 2013, most likely because of problems with legal and illegal drugs, alcohol and suicide, the researchers concluded. Before then, death rates for that group dropped steadily, and at a faster pace.

An increase in the mortality rate for any large demographic group in an advanced nation has been virtually unheard of in recent decades, with the exception of Russian men after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

The rising death rate was accompanied by an increase in the rate of illness, the authors wrote in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

[Prestigious medical journals rejected stunning study on deaths among middle-aged whites]

“Drugs and alcohol, and suicide . . . are clearly the proximate cause,” said Angus Deaton, the 2015 Nobel laureate in economics, who co-authored the paper with his wife, Anne Case. Both are economics professors at Princeton University.

“Half a million people are dead who should not be dead,” he added. “About 40 times the Ebola stats. You’re getting up there with HIV-AIDS.”

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/a-group-of-middle-aged-american-whites-is-dying-at-a-startling-rate/2015/11/02/47a63098-8172-11e5-8ba6-cec48b74b2a7_story.html

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/03/health/death-rate-middle-age-white-americans/

There's something going on. I don't know what, but there's something going with the quality of life of US whites that is really, really, really not pleasant. Numbers just don't tank like this.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

Are you talking about people with fairly prominent disabilities or something?

Women have the same issues with being lonely, maybe not being seen as classically attractive, having issues connecting with people.

No, just your standard unattractive nonentities that nobody wants anything to do with. Regardless of the issues women have, they usually don't want men with equivalent issues. In fact, often times when I see women complain about being ignored/lonely it's because they're setting their standards super high (as society encourages them to do), and any men below those standards who express interest basically don't count.

I can't really comment on this:

Yet when you look at the various MRA/incel/bullshit-man-stuff communities, beautiful women are worshipped in a creepy, roundabout way while average women are humiliated.

Is that pattern supposed to be ignored?

because I don't notice it in the particular communities I frequent.

...I respectfully disagree. Sure, there are some genuinely great people who end up alone. Those aren't the people getting radicalized in these communities, for the most part, if you read the actual words people write. Go check out what some redpillers have to say right now and you're going to find reams of delusional entitlement. That sub is the War and Peace of entitlement.

I certainly agree on the Red Pill being chock full of entitled and delusional people. I may have overstated the relationship between my experience and the topic at hand.

 

[Moofers]

Some of the responses in here are disheartening. A lot of generalizing about white people going on. I'm a white guy and I don't stand for any of the shit this piece is talking about, nor do I appreciate the sentiment that I somehow view other white people differently from how I see other races collectively. That's the same shit that ignorant turds throw around about other races so try to do them one better and not do exactly what they're doing. And spare me the "oh look how fragile white people are, he thinks we're talking about him!" because if I don't say something, that shit becomes normal and somehow those of you doing that in here aren't able to see what you're doing.

 

[Maledict]

The conversation and debate here is interesting and thought provoking, but I still cannot get over the fact that it is always white *straight* guys doing this. If you think it's hard being an outcast because you like anime and can't get laid, try not being able to even tell anyone about yourself and also not getting laid - and yet we don't have young gay guys going nuts with a semi-automatic killing people.

It goes beyond 'they need to have sex'. Yes, sexual drive in young adult men is a key part here, but it is clearly not the only part, and I don't think having sex would fix these issues like some posters are suggesting. We have clear examples of young men in far worse circumstances who don't behave in this way, and we also have clear examples of young men who are having sex who commit unbelievable atrocities and acts of violence towards women and society.

It's not as simple as getting people laid.

 

[Kumquat]

Ya know what's weird? Being considered white even though you are Jewish.

I always just thought of it as camo. I've been able to talk to people, such as KKK members and such who would hate me if they knew who I really was. It's such a mind fuck in a lot of ways. I used to wear a Star of David around my neck until some skinheads tried to attack me when I was younger. Without it, because of my blonde hair and all that, nobody ties me with the stereotype for how we look.

It's a crazy world we live in.

 

[Moofers]

Ya know what's weird? Being considered white even though you are Jewish.

I always just thought of it as camo. I've been able to talk to people, such as KKK members and such who would hate me if they knew who I really was. It's such a mind fuck in a lot of ways. I used to wear a Star of David around my neck until some skinheads tried to attack me when I was younger. Without it, because of my blonde hair and all that, nobody ties me with the stereotype for how we look.

It's a crazy world we live in.

My brother in law is half Hispanic and has a last name of Mexican origin, but people always assume he's just a regular white guy because he has blonde hair and blue eyes. He and my wife's sister lived in a town where the white supremacy movement was very much alive and kicking but none of the shitbirds there ever gave him any grief or treated him differently because they just assumed he was 100% white.

 

[LucidMomentum]

I agree 100 percent, but the isolation that a lot of whites are feeling, especially in the US....

To quote myself from earlier:


There's something going on. I don't know what, but there's something going with the quality of life of US whites that is really, really, really not pleasant. Numbers just don't tank like this.

It's almost like a society based of toxic masculinity and patriarchy might not be all it's cracked up to be.

Throw in religious and political double standards, "don't ask, don't tell" methodologies in regards to many aspects of puberty, teenage development, and education, and it seems like people are going out the gate in a rough spot.

But no, let's ban Muslims and criminalize Marijuana. That's gotta be it.

Ya know what's weird? Being considered white even though you are Jewish.

I always just thought of it as camo. I've been able to talk to people, such as KKK members and such who would hate me if they knew who I really was. It's such a mind fuck in a lot of ways. I used to wear a Star of David around my neck until some skinheads tried to attack me when I was younger. Without it, because of my blonde hair and all that, nobody ties me with the stereotype for how we look.

It's a crazy world we live in.

Exactly. I mentioned it in the Black History Month thread, but I'm West Indian. By race I'm a mix of a lot of different minority groups, and my estranged father was Native American and Irish, so I'm really a mix of everything except SEA.

But my skin tone is merely a light tan, so much so that in photos I look white basically.

The amount of shit I hear that I have to call out is astonishing. There's an odd level of comfort, like I'm "one of the good ones" or something. SMH.

Some of the responses in here are disheartening. A lot of generalizing about white people going on. I'm a white guy and I don't stand for any of the shit this piece is talking about, nor do I appreciate the sentiment that I somehow view other white people differently from how I see other races collectively. That's the same shit that ignorant turds throw around about other races so try to do them one better and not do exactly what they're doing. And spare me the "oh look how fragile white people are, he thinks we're talking about him!" because if I don't say something, that shit becomes normal and somehow those of you doing that in here aren't able to see what you're doing.

I understand your sentiments and see how it can be frustrating, but you do understand why people can be upset that there seems to be a trend of White people "sticking up" for other White people even if their actions are similar to other incidents caused by religious radicals?

Like, not having sex is not an excuse for murder and hatred. Black children "just need fathers", whereas White children "just need to get laid" seems like both a horrible set of stereotypes and a gross generalization that ignores the root causes in an attempt to seem concerned.

My brother in law is half Hispanic and has a last name of Mexican origin, but people always assume he's just a regular white guy because he has blonde hair and blue eyes. He and my wife's sister lived in a town where the white supremacy movement was very much alive and kicking but none of the shitbirds there ever gave him any grief or treated him differently because they just assumed he was 100% white.

Exactly. All that shows me is if you can interact with someone in a positive manner just because you assume they're of a race you "like", then why the fuck can't you just treat everyone that way. What the fuck is your problem.

Heck, I've had people go from treating me nicely to being more antagonistic once they find out I'm West Indian.

ALSO, since this post ain't long enough, everyone saying that sex is a "BIG DEAL" for kids and is thus the reason for these incidents, let's not ignore Toxic Masculinity and how much it has affected U.S. culture.

http://www.doctornerdlove.com/2016/06/toxic-masculinity/

 

[patapuf]

The conversation and debate here is interesting and thought provoking, but I still cannot get over the fact that it is always white *straight* guys doing this. If you think it's hard being an outcast because you like anime and can't get laid, try not being able to even tell anyone about yourself and also not getting laid - and yet we don't have young gay guys going nuts with a semi-automatic killing people.

It goes beyond 'they need to have sex'. Yes, sexual drive in young adult men is a key part here, but it is clearly not the only part, and I don't think having sex would fix these issues like some posters are suggesting. We have clear examples of young men in far worse circumstances who don't behave in this way, and we also have clear examples of young men who are having sex who commit unbelievable atrocities and acts of violence towards women and society.

It's not as simple as getting people laid.

Not getting laid is only one source of frustration. And just being frustrated doesn't radicalise. Plenty of frustrated, bitter people go through life without being assholes.

Being frustrated, lonely, depressed etc. does make people more vulnerable to extremist thinking though.

That's why, in addition to helping people with their worries, you still need to confront organisations and individuals that push that kind of stuff.

We will never be able to stop all radicalisation, but maybe it doesn't need a platform on the biggest discussion board of the English speaking world. Free speech or not.

 

[eizarus]

As a pretty "lonely" guy with no real success with women in god- knows- how- many- years- now, I've seen a lot of these fringe cases and it's definitely more about the sexual frustration and it's snowball effects.

If it's so bad for them they should go see a hooker. It's way more common than people like to think. Beats murder.

 

[Moofers]

I understand your sentiments and see how it can be frustrating, but you do understand why people can be upset that there seems to be a trend of White people "sticking up" for other White people even if their actions are similar to other incidents caused by religious radicals?

Like, not having sex is not an excuse for murder and hatred. Black children "just need fathers", whereas White children "just need to get laid" seems like both a horrible set of stereotypes and a gross generalization that ignores the root causes in an attempt to seem concerned.

I guess I honestly don't see the defense behavior you're describing outside of Fox News and their audience and I wouldn't expect more from those people in the first place. I am not saying its impossible or that it doesn't happen, I'm just sitting here thinking we're all on the same team and then I see people go the route of "lol white people" and I'm like "Hey, that's me." I do see your point though.

Exactly. All that shows me is if you can interact with someone in a positive manner just because you assume they're of a race you "like", then why the fuck can't you just treat everyone that way. What the fuck is your problem.

Yeah exactly. I grew up in a family with mixed races so it always seemed like the stupidest thing to me. Beyond boiling it down to human nature and the draw of tribalism, I don't understand it otherwise.

Heck, I've had people go from treating me nicely to being more antagonistic once they find out I'm West Indian.

Whoa, what? Fucking unsubscribed/blocked.

 

[Dragonite]

If it's so bad for them they should go see a hooker. It's way more common than people like to think. Beats murder.

There's more to it than that. You don't get intimacy or validation from a hooker.

 

[CoyoteSpitfire]

If it's so bad for them they should go see a hooker. It's way more common than people like to think. Beats murder.

That doesn't really solve anything long term though. It provides no romantic/emotional fulfillment and doesn't help the guy feel any less pathetic and unwanted.

 

[Principate]

If it's so bad for them they should go see a hooker. It's way more common than people like to think. Beats murder.

I highly doubt it's actually about the sex in that case. More about self worth and the amount that's attached in society to getting laid (as in actually genuinely courting someone and not having to pay for the experience). Though conversely it's generally the opposite for a woman. Of course we all know it's not that important but for someone on the fringe it can be.

 

[Carcetti]

There's something going on. I don't know what, but there's something going with the quality of life of US whites that is really, really, really not pleasant. Numbers just don't tank like this.

If you look at the leading causes of death in the US the lesson is that these people need to stop eating those burgers, pizzas and potato chips while megamaxing their soft drinks.

 

[Maledict]

If it's so bad for them they should go see a hooker. It's way more common than people like to think. Beats murder.

I think the history of violence by mysogenistic men towards prostitutes suggest this is not a good idea. It is not a physical thing - like I said, gay guys dont go shooting up churches and they aren't having sex either. Suggesting these radicalised young men go and use a prostitute is an invitation for more Peter Sutcliffed to be frank.

 

[Tugatrix]

So insecure man are welcome and radicalized by these Right-Wingers that ride the wave. Nothing new, but maybe people will pay attention and do something to help these teens to build a healthy self-esteem

 

[RM8]

You're an unredeemable piece of crap if celibacy turns you into a hate-sick murderer.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

I don't think it's about getting laid. If it was about getting laid, you'd think Japan would be a den of violence lol. A lot of these white supremacists are 40 year olds who are fucking some cunt who also hates black people and Muslims. I think a lot of people just need an easily identifiable "enemy" in their lives to feel complete.

 

[LucidMomentum]

I guess I honestly don't see the defense behavior you're describing outside of Fox News and their audience and I wouldn't expect more from those people in the first place. I am not saying its impossible or that it doesn't happen, I'm just sitting here thinking we're all on the same team and then I see people go the route of "lol white people" and I'm like "Hey, that's me." I do see your point though.

That's the purpose of this topic though, to discuss how and why Fox, Breitbart, et. al are taking impressionable young, white men and radicalizing them into the Alt-Right, much like ISIS does. But because they're White and sometimes Christian (sometimes not), they are given much more due process and "spin" as lone wolves, etc. when the problem seems to be stemming from a series of patterns (sexual frustration, toxic masculinity, lack of education, conservative news preying on fear and "the other", etc.) as these are no longer / never were isolated incidents.

For some reason there's a double standard that if it's a White man committing and act of terrorism it's spun as mental illness or an isolated incident whereas if the terrorist act is from a minority we need a task force, investigations, bans, etc.

It's a dangerous double standard, especially as research has shown that the most dangerous threat to Americans is American terrorists acting out Alt-Right fantasies.

I do think on GAF there's a lot of diet racism towards Whites though, and I do try to stray away from that. But it's alarming how many people in the US trust Fox news and Breitbart at face value, as we've been seeing for the past 5-10 years. They are literally propaganda machines for the GOP that use Alt-Right talking points and false facts to radicalize and nearly militarize people.

That doesn't really solve anything long term though. It provides no romantic/emotional fulfillment and doesn't help the guy feel any less pathetic and unwanted.

It's almost as if sex is one of many ways someone can form emotional connections with people, but the US and it's culture says it's the "best" way so people place a priority on it above other things like having communities you are a part of or close friends that can form a support group.

Like, I'm horny as hell but I realize sex isn't worth getting worked up about. Because I see there's a lot of double standards and a very toxic outlook on Sex in the US. That needs to change but good luck with the GOP and the "Christian" values that the US wants to be the norm.

So insecure man are welcome and radicalized by these Right-Wingers that ride the wave. Nothing new, but maybe people will pay attention and do something to help these teens to build a healthy self-esteem

It's a common radicalization tactic by any religious / political organization. Prey on their fears, make them feel "welcome" and "accepted" but only if they fall in line. Then tell them to do things most people wouldn't do because they want to feel like they belong.

However there's been a trend of ignoring that this radicalization is what might be going on and instead blaming it on mental illnesses and the like, because a lot of people don't want to call out Fox and friends on their bullshit because they make money off it.

 

[ugaboga232]

I highly doubt it's actually about the sex in that case. More about self worth and the amount that's attached in society to getting laid (as in actually genuinely courting someone and not having to pay for the experience). Though conversely it's generally the opposite for a woman. Of course we all know it's not that important but for someone on the fringe it can be.

Definitely this is really important but the brain is heavily wired to get us to have lots of sex especially in ages 15-40. The self worth and cultural aspect is very important but there is some lower level brain regions involved in violence and sex that explain why this is a mostly male only phenomena and across cultures (middle east and ISIS, etc.). We have to change the culture but at the same time we should be sensitive to why this happens in the first place and why telling people to snap out of it or just get over what is a constant push from parts of your brain.

tl;dr its about both culture and the nature of sex/violence in men

Culture is why they become white supremacists or isis for the various groups and is why japan has a greater problem with the huge shut-in population and mental health. All stems from an interaction from our hardware and software (brain and environment/culture).

 

[Cyrano]

I don't think it's about getting laid. If it was about getting laid, you'd think Japan would be a den of violence lol. A lot of these white supremacists are 40 year olds who are fucking some cunt who also hates black people and Muslims. I think a lot of people just need an easily identifiable "enemy" in their lives to feel complete.

Sexual assault in Japan is quite high and also an extremely underreported crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYJpc2y37oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehbNJoxhkG8
https://www.japantoday.com/category...-speak-out-against-japan’s-outdated-rape-laws

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

I think it started with conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories always existed, but especially the 9/11 conspiracy theories were the first to spread in a major way online.
Another thing that distinguished them from other conspiracy theories was the political background. The conspiracy theory was adapted by westerners and muslims alike, because it was a flexible theory that could carry simple anti-elite narratives, but also anti-semitic narratives.

The 9/11 conspiracy theory lead a lot of people to the bigger New World Order/Illuminati conspiracy field and a deep mistrust towards established authorities and even science developed over the years.

These movements started to develop fascist undertones pretty quickly, once you reject any point of view thats not your own and explain it by counting it as part of the conspiracy you already have a radicalized opinion.

The influence of right wing ideology in these conspiracy theories started to grow around 2005.
After that it only took 12 years until the racist, fascist, anti-science way of thinking reached the White House.


I remember an article I read, definitely before Obama took office, where someone labeled online conspiracy theories as dangerous cryptofascist idealogies we shouldn't ignore. The people who see and believe it are not just a few nutjobs, it had become mainstream and the key message was always that established institutions are not to be trusted. So one people fell for it, you couldn't reach them anymore. Neither media, nor scientists nor evidence would convince them that their believe was false.

Bannon knows how to exploit all this. Lies don't matter, opposition doesn't matter.
There is now a significant crowd of people who were stripped of the ability to be rational and instead the rationality was replaced with irrational fear.
Fear turned into hate and Trump uses this hate to get people to support fascism.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Sexual assault in Japan is quite high and also an extremely underreported crime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYJpc2y37oU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehbNJoxhkG8
https://www.japantoday.com/category...-speak-out-against-japan’s-outdated-rape-laws

So? I don't get your point.

 

[Griss]

...I respectfully disagree. Sure, there are some genuinely great people who end up alone. Those aren't the people getting radicalized in these communities, for the most part, if you read the actual words people write. Go check out what some redpillers have to say right now and you're going to find reams of delusional entitlement. That sub is the War and Peace of entitlement.

You're right, the stable, intelligent people who can't get laid tend to end up fine. The ones with family support, or who get a good job, or have some stake in something to keep them going... these guys end up okay. (Well, okay from society's perspective, maybe they're not happy themselves.)

But there are a lot of impressionable people out there. A lot of stupid people. A sucker born every minute, etc. A lot of isolated people, no friends, no support, desperate for any harbour in a storm etc.

And a lot of these people, if they were to be led down one path, would be decent citizens. But in their search for tips on how to pick up women or to express their heartbreak and frustration after being shot down (again) they find these communities, and they become prey, basically. They can show up disagreeing with most of it but thinking "at least these guys are like me, they suffer like me, I'm not alone" and a couple of months later have been radicalised into the most virulent misogynist or white supremacist or what have you.

I know from personal experience that when I suffered depression in college that I was in a very vulnerable state, and while I didn't blame my depression or isolation on anyone else god damn it I wanted to. I wanted to really badly, to alleviate the pain. There was a lot of lonliness and isolation in me that turned into a lot of hate.

I am very fortunate to have a loving family, one I was able to turn to for help. I was also fortunate enough to have the intelligence (and empathy) to know that my thoughts were both wrong and stupid that I needed help. And I overcame my depression and never walked down the wrong road, never gave in to hate. But I've been there at the crossroads, at the weakest moment, and I can totally understand how someone else less fortunate than I am may have found himself drawn to a negative support group in lieu of missing friends or family and been suckered into this bizarre world of hatred.

I don't think all guys involved in this start off bad, just like I don't think all muslim terrorists were destined to be killers or criminals. The brainwashing of the vulnerable is a very real thing.

 

[eizarus]

There's more to it than that. You don't get intimacy or validation from a hooker.

That doesn't really solve anything long term though. It provides no romantic/emotional fulfillment and doesn't help the guy feel any less pathetic and unwanted.

I highly doubt it's actually about the sex in that case. More about self worth and the amount that's attached in society to getting laid (as in actually genuinely courting someone and not having to pay for the experience). Though conversely it's generally the opposite for a woman. Of course we all know it's not that important but for someone on the fringe it can be.

I think the history of violence by mysogenistic men towards prostitutes suggest this is not a good idea. It is not a physical thing - like I said, gay guys dont go shooting up churches and they aren't having sex either. Suggesting these radicalised young men go and use a prostitute is an invitation for more Peter Sutcliffed to be frank.

Actually, you guys are completely right. I guess I cherry picked one small point and focused on that. My bad.

Romantic and emotional fulfilment is way more necessary for these people than sex itself.

 

[Cyrano]

So? I don't get your point.

Using the rape culture of one nation to legitimize or minimize the rape culture another nation is neither constructive nor helpful rhetoric.

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I always assumed it was a type of codependence with the society they are privileged in. There's a collective tantrum flailing in all directions as they can no longer lean on being the favorite child to make up for their insecurities and lose control of a world they thought they made the rules for. Not to be overly reductionist to the point of being insulting, but there's a huge overlap between the symptoms of codependency and the kinds of emotions and attitudes on display in each of the many emergent forms of the alt-right.

 

[TickleMeElbow]

Using the rape culture of one nation to legitimize or minimize the rape culture another nation is neither constructive nor helpful rhetoric.

Some people were basically saying "oh, these guys don't get laid, therefore they turn to white supremacy/violent extremism".

I'm pointing out that that seems like an oversimplification of the issue through my "a lot of men in Japan aren't getting laid, and they aren't turning to violent extremism" quip.

 

[Griss]

I always assumed it was a type of codependence with the society they are privileged in. There's a collective tantrum flailing in all directions as they can no longer lean on being the favorite child to make up for their insecurities and lose control of a world they thought they made the rules for. Not to be overly reductionist to the point of being insulting, but there's a huge overlap between the symptoms of codependency and the kinds of emotions and attitudes on display in each of the many emergent forms of the alt-right.

I'm not sure I get what you're saying but I'd be interested in hearing more.

Are you saying these people have been codependent on their parents and are lost without them? Are you using codependency in terms of their attachment to privilege in society? Do you mean they feel like they need a romantic partner to thrive and be happy - an imagined codependency?

Your use of favourite child threw me off a bit.

 

[ugaboga232]

I always assumed it was a type of codependence with the society they are privileged in. There's a collective tantrum flailing in all directions as they can no longer lean on being the favorite child to make up for their insecurities and lose control of a world they thought they made the rules for. Not to be overly reductionist to the point of being insulting, but there's a huge overlap between the symptoms of codependency and the kinds of emotions and attitudes on display in each of the many emergent forms of the alt-right.

That may be why the alt-right and people like spencer and breitbart editors act the way they do and have the beliefs they do but most of them are not acting physically violently on their beliefs. Most radicals are not the true believer leaders but susceptible people who latch on to the ideology and take it to an extreme often in an emotional way.

Not all shitty hate movement followers became radicalized, that is a separate but related problem to the incidence of violent radicalization.

 

[Cyrano]

Some people were basically saying "oh, these guys don't get laid, therefore they turn to white supremacy/violent extremism".

I'm pointing out that that seems like an oversimplification of the issue through my "a lot of men in Japan aren't getting laid, and they aren't turning to violent extremism" quip.

What you've provided is an equally oversimplified argument that doesn't elucidate what you think is wrong. You can't counter a cultural issue in one country with a cultural issue in another country without some explanation as to what makes the comparison apt.

 

[IAmtheFMan]

Better yet, give them the tools not to act like creepy narcissists (always talking about how much nicer they are, how much smarter they are, how much more genuine they are, etc. etc. etc.), and maybe they'll find a fulfilling relationship on their own.

A bunch of these guys are delusional. I've known countless people like this, from running in fairly nerdy circles. They're constantly frustrated that they can't get the beautiful women they think they deserve, they have all these reasons for why they're elite examples of manhood compared to the apes who manage to actually date/get laid, and they relentlessly attack "substandard" women who might actually be interested in them if they weren't such pieces of shit.

Getting these people in relationships is a further off problem than what actually needs to be solved, I think. There's a ton of delusional entitlement to root through before these guys should get anywhere close to a relationship with an actual woman.

I've been personally burned trying to jump an acquaintance too far down the line, bringing him along to a party and introducing him to people... and his reaction was to pinch a girl's ass without consent, leading to her rightfully making a scene. And the dude was unrepentant. He saw her dancing with another guy (who she happened to know) and thought she would be fine with it.

That's the mindset we're dealing with. They don't understand that women could possibly choose to get involved with someone besides them. They draw all sorts of fucked up conclusions when they see women flirt or be openly attracted to someone.

We should focus on these attitudes, instead of the "poor guy just can't get laid!" aspect of it. That part will solve itself if we teach these creeps to be better men.

I grew up in Ohio, and many of my former friends that I grew up with have this issue. It is a problem, and you can definitely see the spectrum starting with the PUA/incel forums to Gamergate/MRA, and finally to alt-right. I'm not white (Asian) but I've seen it first hand and to be fair, it's not just white people. I've seen Asian men go through something similar though this alt-right movement has been more dangerous than any I've seen of any other ethnicity.

The issue stems from a number of issues: one is that it is the conditioning of "the world promised me a hot girl" thing. Media and other formats in the cultural zeitgeist has this expectation of "do the good thing, and that hot girl is yours." This then culminates into the "I'm a nice guy" phenomena, which just leads to frustration when this isn't fruitful. I think that's a crucial juncture since you can either realize that you need to better yourself, or you can look for a scapegoat and other like minded individuals. It's the latter which results into that radicalization. The other issue is that even if you have someone that wants to better themselves, it really comes down to motivation.

I had one friend who saw "bettering" himself as stats in an RPG. Like he would go to the gym and start learning how to play the piano not for the sake of learning a new skill or getting in better shape, but because these were pieces of ammunition to use on women. He went through that whole "nice guy" phase where he bitched about how he couldn't compete with the alpha guys and women only wanted an asshole. Needless to say, during this time he was really one of the nastiest people to be around and one of our mutual female acquaintances even tried to help him gain some insight into his dissonance, but it didn't stick. I remember that he was even asking me to introduce him to more Asian women because he thought white women were too opinionated, etc. etc (of course I didn't subject any of my friends to his craziness). Eventually, he started trying the more crazy techniques like negging and PUA techniques, again because he saw it as a "win" if he got with a girl, like it was some Mass Effect dialogue tree with the "correct response" eventually leading to sex. As far as I know, that didn't work. Add this to online communities that scapegoat the issue and don't reinforce ANY personal insight into their issue and it's a recipe for the issues we're seeing now. I lost contact with him when I moved to Chicago, but seeing his facebook posts, he clearly has gone all the way to alt-right crazytown.

I honestly don't think legal prostitution would do a significant amount. Yeah it might curb some of the sexual frustration, but this is a deeper rooted issue then just sex. It's an issue with rejection and entitlement and until we delve into that issue, it's gonna be hard to get anywhere and this movement will still exist.

 

[timetokill]

On the topic of what Griss is saying (a lot of which I agree with) and what I was saying earlier...

I deal with a lot of troubled kids at my work. Many often have some sort of mental health issue, anything and everything from depression to ADHD, Tourette's, everything in between. A common theme is that they feel isolated, that they're being judged by their peers and failing to measure up, that they're stuck. The tactics people use to psychologically deal with these issues can be really extreme. A lot of these kids are looking for acceptance somewhere and aren't finding it, even sometimes from their parents, and that's before the age they start valuing the acceptance of others above that of their parents.

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's fair, or that it's even rational. But we're not dealing with the rational here, we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with the fact that perception is reality.

 

[ugaboga232]

On the topic of what Griss is saying (a lot of which I agree with) and what I was saying earlier...

I deal with a lot of troubled kids at my work. Many often have some sort of mental health issue, anything and everything from depression to ADHD, Tourette's, everything in between. A common theme is that they feel isolated, that they're being judged by their peers and failing to measure up, that they're stuck. The tactics people use to psychologically deal with these issues can be really extreme. A lot of these kids are looking for acceptance somewhere and aren't finding it, even sometimes from their parents, and that's before the age they start valuing the acceptance of others above that of their parents.

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's fair, or that it's even rational. But we're not dealing with the rational here, we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with the fact that perception is reality.

Agreed 100%, humans (including ourselves) are far less rational than we seem. Perception literally means the brain's reality as well.

 

[sir_kevith]

I kinda think we have access to many outlets that facilitate anti-social behavior.

TV, videogames, drugs, and especially the echo-chambers of the internet.

It's not that these things are bad but they are bad to rely on over person-to-person social interaction. I think white supremacists have used this to their advantage to recruit for centuries and with the internet they have a new tool to reach people.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I grew up in Ohio, and many of my former friends that I grew up with have this issue. It is a problem, and you can definitely see the spectrum starting with the PUA/incel forums to Gamergate/MRA, and finally to alt-right. I'm not white (Asian) but I've seen it first hand and to be fair, it's not just white people.

Yeah, it's definitely not a white male issue, unfortunately. But like with most issues, being white gives certain individuals more chances and environments to fester into something more virulent.

On the topic of what Griss is saying (a lot of which I agree with) and what I was saying earlier...

I deal with a lot of troubled kids at my work. Many often have some sort of mental health issue, anything and everything from depression to ADHD, Tourette's, everything in between. A common theme is that they feel isolated, that they're being judged by their peers and failing to measure up, that they're stuck. The tactics people use to psychologically deal with these issues can be really extreme. A lot of these kids are looking for acceptance somewhere and aren't finding it, even sometimes from their parents, and that's before the age they start valuing the acceptance of others above that of their parents.

It's the most isolated kids that I often see drawing nazi symbols, saying racist things to get a reaction, and more. And who is giving them acceptance and attention?

I'm not saying it's easy, or that it's fair, or that it's even rational. But we're not dealing with the rational here, we're dealing with the ego, we're dealing with the fact that perception is reality.

I mean, we should have figured this out a long time ago. One's environment matters a hell of a lot and with the internet it's easier than ever to have your trolling get coopted into a sense of belonging and support, all ostensibly good things coming from truly reprehensible places.