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The game’s nomination has sparked debate over what makes an indie game, because despite having the conventional ‘low-fi’ appearance that some indie games have, its developer Mint Rocket is a small team within Nexon, a South Korean company that made $1.8 billion in revenue in 2021 alone.

During a recent Q&A session on Twitch, Keighley was asked for his thoughts on Dave the Diver’s nomination at The Game Awards.

Keighley answered that the definition of an indie game is hard to define, and that ultimately it’s up to The Game Awards jury to pick nominees.

“Look, it’s a great question,” he replied. “Independent can mean different things to different people, and it’s sort of a broad term.

“You can argue, does independent mean the budget of the game, does independent mean where the source of financing was, does it mean the team size? Is it the kind of independent spirit of the game, meaning a smaller game that’s sort of different?

“I think everyone has their own opinion about this, and we really defer to our jury of 120 global media outlets who vote on these awards, to make that determination of ‘is something independent’ or not.

“You know, in other industries, sometimes there are things – I think in the film industry the budget can’t be above this amount of dollars or it’s not independent, so I don’t know.

“Some people have said Larian with Baldur’s Gate 3, that’s an independent game. Kojima Productions with Death Stranding, some people say that’s an independent game. And even though that’s an independent studio, of course it’s funded by PlayStation.

Keighley also pointed out that some of the other indie games nominated in this year’s Game Awards have publishers, asking: “If you have a publisher, is that still indepedent or not?”

Addressing Dave the Diver specifically, he said: “That game is made by a group named Mint Rocket, it’s a smaller game from a smaller group but it’s part of Nexon, they’re employees of Nexon which is a very large publisher. So I think it’s a fair debate and discussion – is that game truly independent, or is it not?

“And you can kind of argue it either way. It’s independent in spirit, and it’s a small game, I don’t know what the budget is but it’s probably a relatively small-budget game, but it is from a larger entity, whereas there are other games on that list that are from much smaller studios.

“But even something like Dredge is published by Team17, so is that independent or not, because you have a publisher?

“It’s a really complicated thing to figure out and come up with strict rules around it, so we let people use their best judgement, and you can agree or disagree with the choices.

“But the fact that Dave the Diver was on that list meant that out of all the independent games that the jury looked at, or what they thought were independent games, that was one of the top five that they looked at this year.”

The OP of the older thread got banned and since we've got this new report with Keighley's take on the matter, I feel like it's a good opportunity to start a fresh discussion on whether Dave the Diver should be considered an indie game or not.

Keighley weighs in on debate over Dave the Diver qualifying for Best Indie Game | VGC

It’s been nominated at The Game Awards, despite being funded by a billion-dollar…

www.videogameschronicle.com

 

[GHG]

What a load of waffle.

While the game is clearly excellent, it's not made by an independent studio. It's disrespectful to developers out there who are truly independent and as a result work under that extra degree of pressure/uncertainty.

If they want to insist on giving a game like this some recognition then create a "budget title" category for full games with a release RRP of under $20.

 

[Montauk]

It shouldn’t be in the indie category IMO.

 

[Bumblebeetuna]

Everyone has a different opinion on what an indie game is? What a load of crap.

Pentiment, great indie game from trillion dollar company Microsoft!

 

[Chuck Berry]

This whole awards show seems like a bigger than usual clusterfuck this year. Maybe due to the sheer amount of bangers released

Still though, something seems off and especially messy about it

Hope there's plenty of awkward speaker interruptions and a cameo by Rabbi Bill Clinton

 

[Mowcno]

If the developer themselves says it's not indie then there's no need for all this speculation on what an indie game is or isn't.

 

[ahtlas7]

Seems weird for that game category but it’s the Doritos awards so check your expectations.

 

[Crayon]

I'd limit the awards to actual self published games. A lot of those are being made by people who are sticking their neck out and taking on all kinds of risk to make a game. When the game is good, it's a Cinderella story and deserves an award. Contrast with a team that not only has the money, but doesn't have to front it.

 

[ChorizoPicozo]

Big Booba dev said something about the awards...but I can't remember.

to me this "celebration" is nothing more than part of the marketing cycle. If you win you get the exposure to reach the "normies".

Are the categories "bullshit"? yes.

 

[Robb]

Yeah, a shortening of the word ‘independent’ is definitely difficult to define.. Gee, I wonder what it could possibly entail…

 

[Fake]

Put the word 'indie game' on google.

 

[Blindy]

They probably could/should have replaced it with Chained Echoes who came out DEC 2022 but missed the cutoff but should have qualified for 2023 by the guidelines set by the Gaming Awards.

 

[kvltus lvlzvs]

I hope we get gilette man again

 

[Ar¢tos]

What a load of waffle.

While the game is clearly excellent, it's not made by an independent studio. It's disrespectful to developers out there who are truly independent and as a result work under that extra degree of pressure/uncertainty.

If they want to insist on giving a game like this some recognition then create a "budget title" category for full games with a release RRP of under $20.

That would exclude many indies that sell for 25-40.

Or you mean along with the indie category?

 

[GHG]

That would exclude many indies that sell for 25-40.

Or you mean along with the indie category?

No, alongside the indie category. But the indie category should only include games that are created by independent studios.

 

[Thick Thighs Save Lives]

They probably could/should have replaced it with Chained Echoes who came out DEC 2022 but missed the cutoff but should have qualified for 2023 by the guidelines set by the Gaming Awards.

Chain Echoes, Pizza Tower, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk... Any of these 3 indie games would've made more sense than Dave the Diver.

 

[Blindy]

Chain Echoes, Pizza Tower, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk... Any of these 3 indie games would've more sense than Dave the Diver.

Cassette Beasts too. Good year for Indie gaming honestly speaking.

Sea of Stars should win this award no matter what(IMO)!

 

[MidGenRefresh]

Without even reading all that, my guess is that they think pixel art = indie.

 

[FunkMiller]

The word 'indie' is literally a contraction of the word independent.

Of course it's not a fucking indie game.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

"definition of an indie game is hard to define"

 

[Embearded]

Independent means no publisher or platform holder involved.
The studio is independent from other companies.

This is truly the age of redefinition.

 

[Mr Moose]

There is a difference between AA and indie. This isn't indie no matter how you look at it.

 

[Fredrik]

Sounds like he just blame the jury.

But it’s kinda amazing that none of the 120 ”cream of the crop” gaming outlets spotted this issue before voting. All that was needed was a simple google search.

Did they all just look at the visuals and team size?

Disrespectful to real indie devs.

And that nominated sports coach that didn’t coach this year was odd too.

 

[analog_future]

What a load of waffle.

While the game is clearly excellent, it's not made by an independent studio. It's disrespectful to developers out there who are truly independent and as a result work under that extra degree of pressure/uncertainty.

If they want to insist on giving a game like this some recognition then create a "budget title" category for full games with a release RRP of under $20.

It shouldn’t be in the indie category IMO.

Everyone has a different opinion on what an indie game is? What a load of crap.

Pentiment, great indie game from trillion dollar company Microsoft!

This whole awards show seems like a bigger than usual clusterfuck this year. Maybe due to the sheer amount of bangers released

Still though, something seems off and especially messy about it

Hope there's plenty of awkward speaker interruptions and a cameo by Rabbi Bill Clinton

Yeah, a shortening of the word ‘independent’ is definitely difficult to define.. Gee, I wonder what it could possibly entail…

They probably could/should have replaced it with Chained Echoes who came out DEC 2022 but missed the cutoff but should have qualified for 2023 by the guidelines set by the Gaming Awards.

Without even reading all that, my guess is that they think pixel art = indie.

The word 'indie' is literally a contraction of the word independent.

Of course it's not a fucking indie game.

Just a reminder that the indie nominees aren't selected by Geoff or The Game Awards, but by over 120 different media outlets. So there's really no "they", as there's no collaboration or anything between these outlets.


What really needs to happen is they need to change the category name altogether, as "indie" clearly has no meaning anymore. "Best experimental game" or something.


But this is also not just limited to the games industry. What we use to define "indie music" and "indie movies" is no longer accurate to the original descriptor either.

 

[mitch1971]

“You can argue, does independent mean the budget of the game, does independent mean where the source of financing was, does it mean the team size? Is it the kind of independent spirit of the game, meaning a smaller game that’s sort of different?

He literally described what indie isn't with all those descriptors.

 

[GHG]

Just a reminder that the indie nominees aren't selected by Geoff or The Game Awards, but by over 120 different media outlets. So there's really no "they", as there's no collaboration or anything between these outlets.


What really needs to happen is they need to change the category name altogether, as "indie" clearly has no meaning anymore. "Best experimental game" or something.


But this is also not just limited to the games industry. What we use to define "indie music" and "indie movies" is no longer accurate to the original descriptor either.

"Indie" does mean something especially as far as making games is concerned. It's really not that complicated.

Not sure why you're attempting to pass on the blame to the people who voted, do you think he would allow them to make Mario a nomination in the best racing game category or something if the voting transpired that way?

If he needs to tighten up the eligibility process for the categories then so be it.

 

[BennyBlanco]

Let me preface by saying I bought and greatly enjoyed Dave the Diver. Charming game with a fun loop.

Lethal Company was/ is more popular and was made by a single person with no publisher. Didn’t get nominated. Dorito Geoff will never get any kind of ad money from that single guy but could from a game with a publisher.

Is it a case of old games media being out of touch with gamers or something more nefarious? Probably the former but because they aren’t actually defining indie games as independently published games there is a reason to doubt it.

This is why I can’t take his mountain dew awards seriously. Just give me the trailers.

 

[Montauk]

Just a reminder that the indie nominees aren't selected by Geoff or The Game Awards, but by over 120 different media outlets. So there's really no "they", as there's no collaboration or anything between these outlets.


What really needs to happen is they need to change the category name altogether, as "indie" clearly has no meaning anymore. "Best experimental game" or something.


But this is also not just limited to the games industry. What we use to define "indie music" and "indie movies" is no longer accurate to the original descriptor either.

TGA/Geoff can set out a definition for the category.

Anything that doesn’t meet the definition can’t be nominated. Not very difficult.

 

[nial]

What a load of waffle.

While the game is clearly excellent, it's not made by an independent studio. It's disrespectful to developers out there who are truly independent and as a result work under that extra degree of pressure/uncertainty.

If they want to insist on giving a game like this some recognition then create a "budget title" category for full games with a release RRP of under $20.

The worst thing is that this isn't the first time it happened either.
Ori and the Blind Forest, a game funded, produced and published by fucking Microsoft Corporation, which also owns the IP, was nominated for best independent game in The Game Awards 2015.

 

[Woopah]

It sounds like they just ask the jury, and they don't put any qualifiers over what counts as an indie or what counts as an RPG etc.

 

[analog_future]

"Indie" does mean something especially as far as making games is concerned. It's really not that complicated.

Not sure why you're attempting to pass on the blame to the people who voted, do you think he would allow them to make Mario a nomination in the best racing game category or something if the voting transpired that way?

If he needs to tighten up the eligibility process for the categories then so be it.

TGA/Geoff can set out a definition for the category.

Anything that doesn’t meet the definition can’t be nominated. Not very difficult.

I don't necessarily disagree with the notion, but at that point the argument could be made that Geoff and the TGA staff are declaring themselves the authority on what constitutes an "indie" game, and dictating what can and cannot be nominated. Which is exactly what they want to avoid doing.

As Geoff pointed out, going by definition, Baldur's Gate III, Death Stranding, and others would be "indie" games. Is CD Projekt "indie" because they self-publish? I don't think that's what most believe we're talking about when bringing up the indie genre.

 

[Arcadialane]

imo only indie games should qualify

 

[Clear]

Seems like a stupid argument to me.

I mean if an independent team gets their work incubated or published by a major publisher but uses a boutique branding like EA Originals, does that disqualify them too?

What qualifies as "indie" anyway, does staff headcount matter? So say an independently funded and developed game on a AAA scale should be put head-to-head against the output of single developer?

The provenance and funding of a thing shouldn't really matter; its basically turned into another horse-shit political debate at that point.

Compare products based on what they are, because the product is the whole point. "Indie" in general usage is an aesthetic term, its used to differentiate small titles from mega-budget blockbusters in order to give them a chance to shine against things that are essentially in a different class - typically signified by their asking price at retail being pegged lower.

What gets me as well is that most so-called "indie" games run on engines built by major corporations or publishers, its not like the old days when everything was coded by the developer, so frankly I don't recognize what makes indipendently developed games so intrinsically "special" generally. Without the work of corporate devs, and corporate money their stuff simply could not exist!

 

[Robb]

As Geoff pointed out, going by definition, Baldur's Gate III, Death Stranding, and others would be "indie" games. Is CD Projekt "indie" because they self-publish? I don't think that's what most believe we're talking about when bringing up the indie genre.

Just my two cents, but BG3 definitely deserves to be there (AAA indie, if you will).

CD Project doesn’t as they’re publicly traded, i.e. not independent. Pretty sure Death Stranding was funded by Sony as well.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Sounds like a bunch of pr face saving garbage coming out of that cuck neck of yours geoff.

Would've been a breath of fresh air to get someone to just own up to this fuck up, but instead of course we get this nonsense, as expected of the media circlejerk.

 

[SmokedMeat]

Indie is not a broad term. There’s nothing “indie” about being backed or receiving money from a big publisher.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

God literally exactly almost word for word what I said in the other thread about Dave the Diver and I got absolutely pounced on by people.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

Indie is not a broad term. There’s nothing “indie” about being backed or receiving money for a big publisher.

Dave is indie because of the graphics and the team size. Clearly

 

[SmokedMeat]

Dave is indie because of the graphics and the team size. Clearly

That doesn’t make you an independent developer.

 

[Dr. Wilkinson]

That doesn’t make you an independent developer.

Obviously that distinction doesn’t matter tho.

 

[Revolutionary]

There has been plenty of time to amend the mistake here, but the fact that Geoff is doubling down tells me that there is a contract involved. Expect to see one or more advertisements for upcoming Nexon games during the show.

 

[StereoVsn]

Chain Echoes, Pizza Tower, Bomb Rush Cyberfunk... Any of these 3 indie games would've made more sense than Dave the Diver.

Chained Echoes should take this, IMO. Amazing game and better than Sea of Stars which is another good contender.

 

[StereoVsn]

Indie is not a broad term. There’s nothing “indie” about being backed or receiving money from a big publisher.

Dave the Diver’s team isn’t “backed” by a publisher. It’s literally just part of the overall company Nexon.

 

[Morrie’s wig shop]

I don’t understand why and how this line got blurred….
It’s pretty self explanatory what an independent (indie) game developer is or so I thought it was.

 

[ByWatterson]

I think it's fine defining it by budget or spirit.

We do this with "indie" music, which is now anything but independent. Terms change, and I think non-AAA deserves a category. Maybe it needs a new moniker, but this is fine.

Otherwise how do we define independent? Isn't anything not owned by a platform holder (like Microsoft) or large media conglomerate (Disney) independent?

Like why is EA not independent? What about CDPR? And if not, at what exact point did they stop being independent?

 

[Krappadizzle]

He isn't wrong. I think it's a more nuanced discussion than people want to admit. It's worth talking about and hashing out so that the right studios are getting the attention they deserve considering the merit that title "indie" should entail.

 

[bender]

I was in a meeting with Geoff earlier this week regarding this subject. Here are the minutes from the meeting.

- Crowd: An Indie Game! An Indide Game! An Indie Game! We found a Indie Game! We've got a Indie Gmame! An Indie Game! An Indie Game! We have found a Indie Game! May we burn it?
- How do you know it is an Indie Game?
- It looks like one.
- Bring it forward.
- I'm not an Indie Game! I'm not an Indie Game!
- But you are dressed as one.
- They dressed me like this.
- No, we didn't.
- And this isn't my award. It's a false one.
- Well?
- We did do the award category.
- The award category? - And the hat. But it is an Indie Game!
- Did you dress it up like this?
- No, no!
- Yes. A bit.
- It has got pixel art.
- What makes you think it is a Indie Game?
- It turned me into a newt!
- A newt?
- I got better.
- Burn it anyway!
- Quiet! Quiet!
- There are ways of telling whether it is an Indie Game.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us.
- Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with Indie Games?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from Indie Games.
- More Indie Games!
- Wood!
- So why do Indie Games burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood?
- Good!
- How do we tell if it is made of wood?
- Build a bridge out of it.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats.
- Throw it into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread.
- Apples.
- Very small rocks.
- Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud.
- Churches.
- Lead.
- A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If it weighs the same as a duck...
- it's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- An Indie Game!
- A duck! A duck!
- Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the Indie Game!
- Remove the supports!
- An Indie Game!
- It's a fair cop.
- Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
- I am Arthur, king of the Britons.

 

[calistan]

I feel like it's a good opportunity to start a fresh discussion on whether Dave the Diver should be considered an indie game or not.

Looks like an indie game to me. I'd define it as a style rather than anything to do with budget or team size.

 

[Arsic]

I was in a meeting with Geoff earlier this week regarding this subject. Here are the minutes from the meeting.

- Crowd: An Indie Game! An Indide Game! An Indie Game! We found a Indie Game! We've got a Indie Gmame! An Indie Game! An Indie Game! We have found a Indie Game! May we burn it?
- How do you know it is an Indie Game?
- It looks like one.
- Bring it forward.
- I'm not an Indie Game! I'm not an Indie Game!
- But you are dressed as one.
- They dressed me like this.
- No, we didn't.
- And this isn't my award. It's a false one.
- Well?
- We did do the award category.
- The award category? - And the hat. But it is an Indie Game!
- Did you dress it up like this?
- No, no!
- Yes. A bit.
- It has got pixel art.
- What makes you think it is a Indie Game?
- It turned me into a newt!
- A newt?
- I got better.
- Burn it anyway!
- Quiet! Quiet!
- There are ways of telling whether it is an Indie Game.
- Are there? What are they? Tell us.
- Do they hurt?
- Tell me, what do you do with Indie Games?
- Burn them!
- And what do you burn, apart from Indie Games.
- More Indie Games!
- Wood!
- So why do Indie Games burn?
- 'Cause they're made of wood?
- Good!
- How do we tell if it is made of wood?
- Build a bridge out of it.
- But can you not also make bridges out of stone?
- Oh, yeah.
- Does wood sink in water?
- No, it floats.
- Throw it into the pond!
- What also floats in water?
- Bread.
- Apples.
- Very small rocks.
- Cider! Great gravy.
- Cherries. Mud.
- Churches.
- Lead.
- A duck!
- Exactly.
- So, logically--
- If it weighs the same as a duck...
- it's made of wood.
- And therefore?
- An Indie Game!
- A duck! A duck!
- Here's a duck.
- We shaIl use my largest scales.
- Burn the Indie Game!
- Remove the supports!
- An Indie Game!
- It's a fair cop.
- Who are you, who are so wise in the ways of science?
- I am Arthur, king of the Britons.

You ok? Put down the crack smoke.

 

[IFireflyl]

You ok? Put down the crack smoke.

No, YOUR mom is the crack whore!