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Upscalers, CRTs, PVMs & RGB: Retro gaming done right!
- Thread starter IrishNinja
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geniusbits
Member
It's 750 all of the time in the sense that it can draw up to that many lines. If it is receiving a source less than 750 the missing lines will be scan lines. The practical result is thicker scan lines than a 480 line SD display, and thinner than a 1000 line display like the A20F BVMs.
If there's anyone in the phoenix area I found this listing of a bvm-1900A it's a few days old, but seeing as it's not labeled with the model or anyhting it might still be around.
I would see if they'd take a lowball myself, but I just don't have the extra space or cash right now.
I would see if they'd take a lowball myself, but I just don't have the extra space or cash right now.
Friend of Sonic
Member
Thanks, I shot them a message for fun.
I also found a sickening site in my google search, City of Mesa surplus sold one of these on an online auction for 1.00. They have a current auction right now for some smaller PVM 1350s that's only at 20 bucks among a bunch of other related stuff. Could be worth looking into, but I don't want anything smaller than 20 inches.
RetroGreg
Member
Do you have a link to the smaller ones? I couldn't find them. Thanks.
You've got your axes flipped. Horizontal resolution probably refers to TVL, a measure of how cleanly the monitor resolves changes in color along a single scanline.
The number of lines that can be drawn would be vertical resolution.
geniusbits
Member
Oh hmm, I was going on what I thought I gathered from one of the recent Phonedork videos.
BONKERS
Member
It doesn't confirm anything because it's not comparing NTSC filtering to RGB. Totally different.
Scanlines are related to the TV, not the output of the system and you WILL have scanlines regardless of whether you use Composite or RGB
All I was trying to confirm was that RGB does not look like an unfiltered emulation shot. That comparison is too often used to try and say RGB is bad and composite is good, but it's not really relevant at all.
In the arcade, dithering effects on Sega's games were clearly visible and not softened to create different colors. I saw it myself over the weekend when playing Virtua fighter (the shadows were dithered). So, I think it's generally okay to have a lossless video signal.
Ban Puncher
Member
Finally got a set of near new Gamecube component cables this evening that didn't cost stupid price like they go for these days.
Been after some for years but $350? Go away forever, eBay.
Been after some for years but $350? Go away forever, eBay.
sixteen-bit
Member
Good on you. GCN component cable prices are absurd.
So, I got myself a XRGB-mini because other upscaler are horrible for gaming!
Though I've been reading on how to get the best possible picture quality I want to ask some question so I don't waste anyone time and money.
Note: I'm primary using the XRGB-mini for SNES and N64.
1. As long I have the original/large SNES I don't need to do anything special beside getting the right cable, correct?
2. According to RetorRGB my N64 can be mod for RGB output. I'm terrible at soldering. Is there a place that offer a service or anybody here?
3 I just want to use one cable for both SNES and N64 (after it's modded). Would this cable work fine?
Thanks in advance!
I would had been fine with a cheap upscaler if only it didn't create huge lag, have 4:3 ratio support and didn't add HDCP. Anyway...
Though I've been reading on how to get the best possible picture quality I want to ask some question so I don't waste anyone time and money.
Note: I'm primary using the XRGB-mini for SNES and N64.
1. As long I have the original/large SNES I don't need to do anything special beside getting the right cable, correct?
2. According to RetorRGB my N64 can be mod for RGB output. I'm terrible at soldering. Is there a place that offer a service or anybody here?
3 I just want to use one cable for both SNES and N64 (after it's modded). Would this cable work fine?
Thanks in advance!
sixteen-bit
Member
Since xbox 360 can't do 240p, I'm thinking about getting a mini-SLG for my VGA setup with games like Raiden Fighters Aces. I've been out of the loop for a while. Has there been another product that makes the mini-SLG obsolete for these purchases? Where can I buy one?
So heres a story about my adventure with Arcade CRT issues. A cautionary tale
.
So I bought this cabinet a few months ago, it did not seem to have any issues
It is an Atomiswave SD Candy Cabinet, manufactured in 2003. According to the Arcade Otaku Wiki it has a Wei-ya M3192D Monitor. Based on a bunch of digging, people have reported major issues with the Monitor it comes with since 2008 (That I can find). The consensus is that it was made with shitty cheap components.
Im still fairly new to Arcade Hardware, I don't have a ton of electronics experience in terms of repairing these sorts of issues so I needed to find help. I originally took the machine to a place in El Monte, CA called Vics Videogames. They claimed to have fixed the issue, it certainly powered on at the shop after it sat with him for a month so I didn't question it. This is after I called once a week for that month asking where it was at and I got a lot of We had to help other customers, they need theirs repaired now before yours. Im pretty patient, but after a month of hearing the same line with no progress it was getting old. By this point I thought it was screwed completely, I just wanted confirmation so I could start looking for a replacement. 5 minutes after getting it home and plugged in, zaaaaap it was dead. There was no literal zap it just wobbled on screen for a bit and went dark. Kind of like the end of Terminator 2, except to the sound of MvC2s Jazz intro music. My other cabs are connected to the same outlet and are fine so I was pretty safe to assume it wasn't my wall outlet killing it, at least on its own. The guys at the place said they had to double on diodes because they kept frying after a short time being on. I was fed up with the bullshit, no more business there from me.
I was about ready to sell the cab, which was sad because I got it at a good deal and I have my MvC2 setup in it. I thought id do a bit more digging. I found P&L Videogames in Baldwin Park, CA but unlike Vic's place, P&L had some community backup on posts on NEO-GEO.com forums and some other random Arcade focused forums. I had only found Vics on Yelp, and thats it. I called the place up and asked what they needed from me to get this thing repaired. Now to be clear the monitor has NO burn in whatsoever and had a beautiful picture. Ive filmed it a few times, like this video https://youtu.be/r9OW1YgqcUE, where it was up and running with no issue. They told me to only bring in the Chassis.
Yikes!
Ive never pulled a Chassis before, and I wasnt feeling very confident. My father who has a lot more experience with this sort of thing offered to help. Partly because I had bought him a cab and his monitor was failing as well, but for other reasons. Being that this cab uses a flat tube monitor that runs all three arcade resolutions it has a lot more cables to unplug because of its complexity. It also doesn't exactly help that the control panel is not on the chassis board and is connected via various wires to a sub board. After taking a LOT of pictures, we pulled the Chassis with some help from Johns arcade video tutorial. After looking at the Chassis carefully, I couldn't find any modifications to the board whatsoever! Where the fuck were these so called doubled up diodes? It doesn't look like anyone but a machine has soldered anything on this board since it was assembled.
I took the Chassis to P&L and within 3 days (today) they called me back with it repaired. The guy told me Whoever worked on this before fucked it up. In the end it required a Cap job, and a new Flyback plus whatever things he had to fix that were modified. Based on my own reading the flyback issue might have texplained the clicking noise the monitor was making after it died and might have explained the over voltage issue where it kept frying components. I thought the clicking might be the monitor having trouble finding the right resolution.
Now, I just received it repaired from P&L, and I have not installed it back into the cab yet. Im feeling confident based on the fact I can see the modifications (New caps, flyback) changes to the board itself. Also, unlike Vics place, P&L seem to really only work on Monitors. They have monitors galore and this was a monitor issue.
I will be reinstalling this thing on Friday for a hopefully final determination if its going to work or not. I have come to the conclusion if not, I might just replace the monitor entirely with a new one that Suzo Harp sells. Looks like it might still be more Wei-ya rebranded crap, but it will at least be working. If anyone is interested I will update this on Saturday when and if its up and running ..or not.
So I bought this cabinet a few months ago, it did not seem to have any issues
It is an Atomiswave SD Candy Cabinet, manufactured in 2003. According to the Arcade Otaku Wiki it has a Wei-ya M3192D Monitor. Based on a bunch of digging, people have reported major issues with the Monitor it comes with since 2008 (That I can find). The consensus is that it was made with shitty cheap components.
Im still fairly new to Arcade Hardware, I don't have a ton of electronics experience in terms of repairing these sorts of issues so I needed to find help. I originally took the machine to a place in El Monte, CA called Vics Videogames. They claimed to have fixed the issue, it certainly powered on at the shop after it sat with him for a month so I didn't question it. This is after I called once a week for that month asking where it was at and I got a lot of We had to help other customers, they need theirs repaired now before yours. Im pretty patient, but after a month of hearing the same line with no progress it was getting old. By this point I thought it was screwed completely, I just wanted confirmation so I could start looking for a replacement. 5 minutes after getting it home and plugged in, zaaaaap it was dead. There was no literal zap it just wobbled on screen for a bit and went dark. Kind of like the end of Terminator 2, except to the sound of MvC2s Jazz intro music. My other cabs are connected to the same outlet and are fine so I was pretty safe to assume it wasn't my wall outlet killing it, at least on its own. The guys at the place said they had to double on diodes because they kept frying after a short time being on. I was fed up with the bullshit, no more business there from me.
I was about ready to sell the cab, which was sad because I got it at a good deal and I have my MvC2 setup in it. I thought id do a bit more digging. I found P&L Videogames in Baldwin Park, CA but unlike Vic's place, P&L had some community backup on posts on NEO-GEO.com forums and some other random Arcade focused forums. I had only found Vics on Yelp, and thats it. I called the place up and asked what they needed from me to get this thing repaired. Now to be clear the monitor has NO burn in whatsoever and had a beautiful picture. Ive filmed it a few times, like this video https://youtu.be/r9OW1YgqcUE, where it was up and running with no issue. They told me to only bring in the Chassis.
Yikes!
Ive never pulled a Chassis before, and I wasnt feeling very confident. My father who has a lot more experience with this sort of thing offered to help. Partly because I had bought him a cab and his monitor was failing as well, but for other reasons. Being that this cab uses a flat tube monitor that runs all three arcade resolutions it has a lot more cables to unplug because of its complexity. It also doesn't exactly help that the control panel is not on the chassis board and is connected via various wires to a sub board. After taking a LOT of pictures, we pulled the Chassis with some help from Johns arcade video tutorial. After looking at the Chassis carefully, I couldn't find any modifications to the board whatsoever! Where the fuck were these so called doubled up diodes? It doesn't look like anyone but a machine has soldered anything on this board since it was assembled.
I took the Chassis to P&L and within 3 days (today) they called me back with it repaired. The guy told me Whoever worked on this before fucked it up. In the end it required a Cap job, and a new Flyback plus whatever things he had to fix that were modified. Based on my own reading the flyback issue might have texplained the clicking noise the monitor was making after it died and might have explained the over voltage issue where it kept frying components. I thought the clicking might be the monitor having trouble finding the right resolution.
Now, I just received it repaired from P&L, and I have not installed it back into the cab yet. Im feeling confident based on the fact I can see the modifications (New caps, flyback) changes to the board itself. Also, unlike Vics place, P&L seem to really only work on Monitors. They have monitors galore and this was a monitor issue.
I will be reinstalling this thing on Friday for a hopefully final determination if its going to work or not. I have come to the conclusion if not, I might just replace the monitor entirely with a new one that Suzo Harp sells. Looks like it might still be more Wei-ya rebranded crap, but it will at least be working. If anyone is interested I will update this on Saturday when and if its up and running ..or not.
Those who are using the FM with an LED TV, what are your thoughts on the best way to connect the Wii? Is there a generally agreed consensus, or are the differences subtle enough that it's just personal preference and/or dependent on the TV being used?
Component direct to TV? (using TV component in)
Component to Ouya Wii2HDMI adapter to TV over HDMI?
Component to D-link adapter to FM to TV over HDMI?
Component direct to TV? (using TV component in)
Component to Ouya Wii2HDMI adapter to TV over HDMI?
Component to D-link adapter to FM to TV over HDMI?
So finnaly I bought a XRGB Framemeister mini and just got it into the mail, turned out to be a bit more expensive then I hoped it to be..yikes!
I will mostly use it for my NESRGB and SNES. I have a question regarding the scart cable input since there is a warning about that in the first post. Does that still apply to the mini version? Since there is a small adapter inside the box for scart to svideo(?).
Just making sure that I dont do anything stupid
I will mostly use it for my NESRGB and SNES. I have a question regarding the scart cable input since there is a warning about that in the first post. Does that still apply to the mini version? Since there is a small adapter inside the box for scart to svideo(?).
Just making sure that I dont do anything stupid
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
480i = use the XRGB
480p = XRGB or direct to TV, depending on how good your TV is
I don't think the Wii2HDMI adapter serves a purpose if you already have an XRGB.
So finnaly I bought a XRGB Framemeister mini and just got it into the mail, turned out to be a bit more expensive then I hoped it to be..yikes!
I will mostly use it for my NESRGB and SNES. I have a question regarding the scart cable input since there is a warning about that in the first post. Does that still apply to the mini version? Since there is a small adapter inside the box for scart to svideo(?).
Just making sure that I dont do anything stupid
The adapter that comes with the Framemeister is a JP21 to 8-pin DIN adapter (not s-video).
If you want to use SCART cables instead of JP21, you need something like this:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Micomsoft-X...-Mini-8-pin-/201294067744?hash=item2ede0fb820
By the way guys, didnt end up getting that JVC monitor. Its a 19 inch monitor. Check it out if you guys are in the Nashville area!
http://nashville.craigslist.org/pho/5130687238.html
http://nashville.craigslist.org/pho/5130687238.html
Ah alright! Thanks for the info.
Mihos
Gold Member
If you have the tools and some moderate soldering skills, you rewire the cable that came with it from JP21 to SCART. (that's what I did).
You may have some luck on ebay finding some converted already also. Don't get in over your head, though.
Thanks. So basically then, if you've got an XRGB mini, use it. Only reason I asked is b/c I've read here and there that the XRGB isn't so good with handling component input. (??)
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
The most basic strengths of the entire XRGB line of upscalers is that they properly handle 240p effects and have great or fast deinterlacing for 480i sources. Both of those things are less true of HDTVs. The performance gap narrows once you're dealing with 480p sources or higher. The Framemeister will be good for that, but it's much less essential at that point.
I have a question regarding audio. Below is my planned setup with a Sony PVM-20M4U, Hama scart switch and four consoles. NES is actually an AV Famicom (future RGB mod), SNES, Genesis, N64 (s-video).
The monitor only has mono sound which means any I need stereo-to-mono Y-adapter for any red/white audio cables plugged directly into the monitor. I'd prefer to get a small pair of desktop speakers for actual stereo sound. Question is... where do speakers fit into this setup?
Do I plug the scart-to-BNC cable's red/white audio plugs into the speakers? Do the speakers plug into the audio out plugs of the Hama switch?
Finally, what about the s-video N64? It seems it will be left out of the planned stereo audio setup. I don't have all the pieces yet which is why working this out in my head is confusing me. Thanks.
Back of the monitor:
The monitor only has mono sound which means any I need stereo-to-mono Y-adapter for any red/white audio cables plugged directly into the monitor. I'd prefer to get a small pair of desktop speakers for actual stereo sound. Question is... where do speakers fit into this setup?
Do I plug the scart-to-BNC cable's red/white audio plugs into the speakers? Do the speakers plug into the audio out plugs of the Hama switch?
Finally, what about the s-video N64? It seems it will be left out of the planned stereo audio setup. I don't have all the pieces yet which is why working this out in my head is confusing me. Thanks.
Back of the monitor:
I'm not sure if others have had this experience, but the Component > D-Terminal adapter > Framemeister connection didn't look as good as it should have when I tried it for the PS2 and Wii. There was this strange noise/banding artifact that would appear in dark colors. This problem didn't show up when connecting the component cables directly to a TV.
Maybe using an actual D-Terminal cable can prevent this. I dunno.
You should be able to tap the audio out on your Scart box. You may have to flick a switch to select audio in or out though. Your N64 Svideo cable has RCA audio out already, that you can either plug into your amp separately, or use a passive stereo mixer. I'm using the Rolls MX42 Stereo Mini Mixer myself, which I think is very good but at $50 maybe a tad expensive. If you want to go
sir_kevith
Member
Cool stuff,
I'm working on fixing an older K7000 monitor. I already recapped the chassis and installed a new flyback and the screen is definitely bright enough now but the colors are a bit dull. I got a lead on a CRT rejuvenator so I'm going to try it on the weaker setting. If that doesn't work then I gotta dumpster dive looking for a 25 inch TV with a tube that will work hehe.
If you're pulling the chassis out and stuff on your own I'm sure you could do most the repairs yourself in the future. Capacitors and replacement flybacks are cheap and seem to be the weakest link. Good luck with the install.
Thanks sir_kevith, I want to be able to do this myself on my own eventually. I just hope I have all of the wires plugged in right before powering up....
Thanks, this is helpful. I also found this post using the same scart box, showing a very similar setup.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?p=912318#p912318
The person has Creative T20 speakers hooked up directly to the scart box as you indicated. I noticed his RGBS cable going from box to TV has no audio inputs, which I guess means I can ignore those and leave them unplugged on the monitor since it would unnecessarily feed audio into the built-in mono speaker.
One thing: why do I need an amp/mixer? I'm buying powered speakers. Is it so I can put it between the scart switch and the speakers and have extra audio inputs for stuff like the N64's s-cable? $50 seems very reasonable for anything verging into audiophile territory!
Out of any console, N64 seems to benefit the least going from composite to RGB. S-video seems to be enough and practically identical if you're not "pixel peeping." I don't know if it's the system's bluriness/filters or if its RGB output just plain sucks but at times I literally can't see a difference in pictures and video between S-video and RGB, and the jump from composite doesn't look huge like it does for NES, SNES, Genesis, PC Engine, PS1, Gamecube component, etc. This probably contributes to why RGB N64s sell relatively cheap compared to other RGB-modded systems. There's one on ebay right now for $50 from a reputable seller.
You don't have to use an amp. An amp allows more versatility in your setup, like using headphones, plugging other sources, using a remote... You can also upgrade the amp and the speakers separately. Powered speakers have the amp integrated, so you need to change everything at once if you need to.
The mixer is needed if your amp has a single input and you have several sources (your Scart switch and your N64). You shouldn't simply use a Y cable to merge the signals, as you risk damaging your sources.
Thanks, Khaz. I just bought that exact mixer. A lot smaller in person than I expected but it'll do fine! I remembered I actually have a Fiio EK09 headphone amp, plus the portable DAC that docks on top) which I read is strong enough to handle some a set of bookshelf speakers. All indications are that it's perfectly safe to hook up active speakers to this amp's line-out, if I needed to for some reason. I still picked up a pair of T20s for simplicity. Now I just need that scart box to hurry up from overseas and I'm set. Genesis composite is absolutely hideous.
Get official only and eBay is probably your only choice if you don't have an independent game store in your area. I got one at a local shop yesterday after the third party adapter I got with my SNES purchase would not run Starfox or SD2SNES. I did not wait to see what other fun little surprises that POS would drop on me. All third party adapters seem to be subpar compared to the real one.
Get official only and eBay is probably your only choice if you don't have an independent game store in your area. I got one at a local shop yesterday after the third party adapter I got with my SNES purchase would not run Starfox or SD2SNES. I did not wait to see what other fun little surprises that POS would drop on me. All third party adapters seem to be subpar compared to the real one.
Yeah I would look first at the component to D-terminal adapter cable in that situation as the weak link. I haven't taken the dive on purchasing the XRGB mini yet, but I've been researching and I know most people here buy through SolarisJapan. Considering that they honor the original warranty even for purchasers outside Japan I probably will too. But that component to d-terminal adapter is just a profit padder for them. They charge $16 for it, and they say they're giving you a nice discount on it if you buy it with your XRGB mini, but I'm sure what they're selling is no better or worse than the one on japanese amazon for $5. Most will work 100%, but not all.
Ban Puncher
Member
I was just running my GC through my Framemeister with the component cables connected via a component/D-Terminal cable and everything looked hunky dory.
¯\_(ツ_/¯
¯\_(ツ
_/¯HDMI for sure. Not sure about 1080i vs. 720p. I think that probably depends on the specific model of the TV. I'd lean more towards 720p though.
HDMI 720p
This is correct, heck I would take 720p over 1080i anyday.
Lynd7
Member
I was at a friends yesterday and we were fiddling around setting up an XRGB Mini with the settings etc, also cleaned some N64 games
After looking at some of the different setups for the XRGB, we kinda found that having the scanlines on helped the image look a bit nicer. Without them the image appears more jagged and not quite as well defined.
How do you guys usually have it setup for the N64? Right now I think it looks better with the scanlines.
After looking at some of the different setups for the XRGB, we kinda found that having the scanlines on helped the image look a bit nicer. Without them the image appears more jagged and not quite as well defined.
How do you guys usually have it setup for the N64? Right now I think it looks better with the scanlines.
Ditto. Plus, HDMI is RGB digital on these consoles. Component is out of that fight.
I was at a friends yesterday and we were fiddling around setting up an XRGB Mini with the settings etc, also cleaned some N64 games
After looking at some of the different setups for the XRGB, we kinda found that having the scanlines on helped the image look a bit nicer. Without them the image appears more jagged and not quite as well defined.
How do you guys usually have it setup for the N64? Right now I think it looks better with the scanlines.
Anything that runs at 240p = scanlines. That's my personal rule.
Next easy question.
NormalFish
Banned
You can mod it to output CSync, but I believe the 'standard' mod uses composite video or luma for sync. Preferably the latter.
blast processed
Member
Calling all Trinitron users. Someone I work with is offering me one for free. Is it worth it over a regular CRT? Major quality upgrade? None of my consoles are RGB.
I thought that was only specific N64 revisions?
geniusbits
Member
Probably, but to be specific you should know the model. A good rule is that if it's an SD Trinitron with component input in the back it's probably better than whatever CRT you have now.
I think NormalFish is right. retro_console_accessories does recommend the sync-on-luma cable for N64.
It's a personal preference. Though if it has Component, get it immediately, mod your consoles to RGB and get a Scart to Component converter.
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