SolidSnakex
Member
Pseudo judo said:
What do you think Kojima Productions has been working on all this time? Nothing?
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The visual evidence to end the X360/PS3 battle once and for all.
- Thread starter Mrbob
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What do you think Kojima Productions has been working on all this time? Nothing?
Quote:
Following an airing of the TGS trailer (the same one that was being run in Sony Computer Entertainment's PS3 theater) booth, Kojima and the MGS4 staff ran a demonstration of MGS4 running off an actual PS3 development kit with a PS2 Dual Shock used for control. The demonstration consisted of one segment from the trailer -- a scene of Snake wielding a gun as he prepares to take shelter in a ruined building -- but midway through, a member of the development staff paused the action and began zooming in and out and rotating the camera.
This alone would have been a clear demonstration that the clip was running in real time, but the demonstration didn't end there. In order to further show off some of the technology behind the game, Kojima demonstrated some of the lighting and effects possible with the new PS3 engine. "I've always wanted to do self shadowing, but couldn't," Kojima explained, touching upon an effect known as self-shadowing where characters cast shadows onto themselves. The lighting in the scene shifted to show off the game's new self shadowing routines. "I can finally do it!"
Art director Yoji Shinkawa was on stage along side Kojima and both he and Kojima took the opportunity to explain a filtering effect that will be used in the game. Referring to the trailer, Kojima stated, "There's no sense of atmosphere, so on top of this we add a metal color and make it look like a movie on film. Using various effects, we dirty it up." Shinkawa then demonstrated the filtering effects in real time.
Kojima's discussion touched upon some of the non-technical aspects of the game as well. If you've seen the trailer or screenshots for MGS4, you might have noticed a creature whose upper body is mechanical while its lower body is organic. This is the new Metal Gear. "Half machine, half living -- perhaps this is how weapons will progress from here," Kojima commented. The name for the creature is formed two Japanese characters: one for moon and one for light.
Kojima also went into further details on the game's storyline and themes. "The time period this time is many years after MGS2," Kojima stated. This make senses, considering the age of Snake. MGS4 is, chronologically, the last Metal Gear Solid game, following Metal Gear Solid and MGS2. MGS3 took place years before MGS and was part of a separate trilogy of titles.
Playing an important role in the storyline is, of course, Otacon, who appears in the trailer via a small mobile assistant machine. The machine has a screen that displays a video image of Otacon, with Otacon himself being far away from the battle field. The image on the screen, Kojima stressed, is not video, but is also real time. Getting back to the storyline, Otacon's statements from the trailer apparently have great relevance to the final form that MGS4 will take.
The concept of MGS4 was known to be "No Place to Hide" since E3, and as many had speculated, this was in reference to a war zone. "This time, your infiltration point isn't a place, but a war zone," Kojima clarified. "You'll infiltrate battle fields throughout the entire world." And with a war zone comes soldiers. "This time, there are no friends or enemies -- your opponents are soldiers," Kojima revealed. Solidifying recent statements in Famitsu, Kojima stated that player choice will have a role in MGS4 as you'll be able to make soldiers into friends or enemies. Also, each soldier will have his own set of personal gear. MGS4 uses a different "theme" from previous Metal Gear Solid games. The series has switched from "MEME" to "GENE" to "SCENE," and now ends up with "SENSE." Kojima and his staff are attempting to touch upon the sense of will and spirit that form the root of people. "We are fleshing out areas such as the opponent soldier's psyche and the places that you can't see with your eyes," Kojima explained. Hinting that you'll have a new weapon in MGS4, he added, "We want to demonstrate the psyche of enemy on the battle field as well as the psychological war that makes use of this."
Link http://ps3.ign.com/articles/651/651960p1.html
One thing I've noticed lacking in virtually every X360 game presented to the public is the lack of HDR lighting and a complex shadow/lighting model. Gears of War is an exception, not the rule. Based on the fact that early devkits lacked HDR capable hardware, I'm not suprised that we haven't seen more of it...but the shadows? Every realtime PS3 demo has made extensive use of SM30 features and full blown lighting models (with complex shadows on all objects). Shadows of this variety could really enhance a number of games shown thus far.
It was the opposite of what you wish for this past gen, though. Up until 2004, it was EXTREMELY common for BIG PS2 titles to run at 60 fps. PS2 has the highest percentage of 60 fps titles of the current machines. 2004 saw a lot of games pushing the system to its limits, however, and 60 fps became a lot less common.
Based on previous trailers for the series, I'd say that MGS4 will almost certainly run at 60 fps. MGS2's originaly trailers were all 60 fps and the final game was as well. MGS3's original trailer, however, was not 60 fps and (unfortunately) that held true for the final release. As I've said many times, when dealing with Kojima's team, they have earned the benefit of the doubt.GitarooMan said:
It was the opposite of what you wish for this past gen, though. Up until 2004, it was EXTREMELY common for BIG PS2 titles to run at 60 fps. PS2 has the highest percentage of 60 fps titles of the current machines. 2004 saw a lot of games pushing the system to its limits, however, and 60 fps became a lot less common.
eso76
Member
WordofGod said:MGS 4 would like to disagree with u:
yes, you see what i meant ? if kojima decided to go for 30fps he could push the draw distance further and remove that fogging but apparently he prefers 60fps even if this means having to sacrifice some polys
HAH.
seriously, what exactly should this image prove ?
eso76 said:yes, you see what i meant ? if kojima decided to go for 30fps he could push the draw distance further and remove that fogging but apparently he prefers 60fps even if this means having to sacrifice some polys
HAH.
seriously, what exactly should this image prove ?
Next Gen is about almost Toy Story quality gaming @ 60FPS. That's what the image proves!
eso76 said:yes, you see what i meant ? if kojima decided to go for 30fps he could push the draw distance further and remove that fogging but apparently he prefers 60fps even if this means having to sacrifice some polys
HAH.
seriously, what exactly should this image prove ?
Add polys? Snake's model alone is composed of 60,000+ polys. For comparison, UE3 games like GOW use 5000-10000 verts per character.
SolidSnakex
Member
eso76 said:yes, you see what i meant ? if kojima decided to go for 30fps he could push the draw distance further and remove that fogging but apparently he prefers 60fps even if this means having to sacrifice some polys
HAH.
seriously, what exactly should this image prove ?
What exactly do you expect in a dust storm. Watch when they first appear and you see dust whipping around everywhere.
Anyway
eso76
Member
Izzy said:
Rrrrrright
Mgs4 is perfect, it's so stuffed with polys you wouldn't know where to put them.
Sure. And sure, Snake has 10x + the polys of Gow characters, of course.
Btw, just for comparison, THIS is an example of a character model using 60.000 polygons
i'd say it's a little more detailed than snake, isn't it ?
eso76
Member
SolidSnakex said:What exactly do you expect in a dust storm. Watch when they first appear and you see dust whipping around everywhere.
Anyway
i wasn't being serious, but so what if it's a dust storm ?
It DOES cut the draw distance and allow the designers to concentrate polys on the foreground
eso76 said:Rrrrrright
Mgs4 is perfect, it's so stuffed with polys you wouldn't know where to put them.
Sure. And sure, Snake has 10x + the polys of Gow characters, of course.
Btw, just for comparison, THIS is an example of a character model using 60.000 polygons
i'd say it's a little more detailed than snake, isn't it ?
@ 20 fps? :lol
SolidSnakex
Member
eso76 said:
So you think the entire game is going to be like that? Through the early portion of the trailer when its just troops on the ground you can see pretty far. It's to give you an idea of just how big the force Snake is about to face that they're kicking up that much dust along with the dust from the wind.
eso76 said:Rrrrrright
Mgs4 is perfect, it's so stuffed with polys you wouldn't know where to put them.
Sure. And sure, Snake has 10x + the polys of Gow characters, of course.
Btw, just for comparison, THIS is an example of a character model using 60.000 polygons
i'd say it's a little more detailed than snake, isn't it ?
From the MGS4 info thread said:
...
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I have no idea where that info Gofreak posted is coming from, but according to it, Snakes model uses 60K vertices just for his hair + mustache.eso76 said:Btw, just for comparison, THIS is an example of a character model using 60.000 polygons
i'd say it's a little more detailed than snake, isn't it ?
It's not like I have proof for this, but non of those effects added seeme like something that would speed up the rendering. They are not your last gen Turok fog that just cuts off the rendering length, but the kind of fog that swirls and moves, and probably eats up fillrate like crazy. The kind of fog that you can see long ways through the moment it clears up a bit in that swirling. Clearly something added because designer wanted to present certain atmosphere, much like they do in the movies that show desert storms and such scenes.dark10x said:
eso76
Member
dark10x said:
do you think the characters in the trailer could have the same level of detail if the draw distance was bigger ? just a question. And actually i am not assuming anything, i don't even think mgs4 pushes an impressive amount of polys for a ps3 or a next gen hardware (it IS very impressive, but for other reasons), i am just feeding trolls
eso76
Member
Marconelly said:
aw, come on now, some people would believe it has individually rendered nosehairs.
snakes hair is only marginally better than current gen's characters' hair, 60k vertices would mean having individually rendered hairs, which is definately not the case, sorry.
The entire snake's model is nowhere near 60k polys, and not even vertices
You mentioned that the shadows weren't as impressive as Gears of War without taking into account the fact that you're in open sunlight. Based on the fact that EVERYTHING casts a soft shadow, you were basically only look at the fact that there were not any moving light sources. This makes sense in the context of the trailer, but you seem to have taken it as "oh, MGS4's engine isn't as impressive in that regard".eso76 said:do you think the characters in the trailer could have the same level of detail if the draw distance was bigger ? just a question. And actually i am not assuming anything, i don't even think mgs4 pushes an impressive amount of polys for a ps3 or a next gen hardware (it IS very impressive, but for other reasons), i am just feeding trolls
Same deal with the draw distance. That's not just a clipped draw distance but dust clouds from the stomping. You can see through it at points, which means the area is being drawn behind there. That effect is probably MORE demanding...
All I'm saying is that it seems as if you looking at artistic design choices and suggesting that they are technical limitations.
SolidSnakex
Member
eso76 said:
What?
That's your idea of marginally better?
Pseudo judo
Member
I said "working title" not "title they're working on". GoW is a working title, ie, if you stick in a controller and toggle the analogue stick and press buttons, charectors animate, things like realtime physics and NPC AI can be seen and interacted with. This does not & can not happen in the MGS4 trailer because it is not a "working title".SolidSnakex said:
Jesus, I think I need to bring a lawyer on these boards in order to post.
Musashi Wins!
FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
I can't believe this thread is going on. I guess this is a good argument for making expensive, good looking games like KILLZONE and GETAWAY by teams that do mediocre gameplay.
eso76 said:do you think the characters in the trailer could have the same level of detail if the draw distance was bigger ? just a question. And actually i am not assuming anything, i don't even think mgs4 pushes an impressive amount of polys for a ps3 or a next gen hardware (it IS very impressive, but for other reasons), i am just feeding trolls
:lol I think you're a troll yourself.
eso76
Member
dark10x said:
no no no, i didn't mention "impressive shadows" anywhere, i just said gow has dynamic shadows for every light and every object on screen because i saw them, and said mgs4 doesn't have the YET. or at least i can't tell. i was just telling you maybe that's why the other guy said gow shadows are more impressive.
I don't know if that's a clipped draw distance or not honestly i don't think so (but i told you, i am really just having fun with a couple guys here who would believe snake has individually rendered skin pores). If the area is being drawn through that ( i didn't see it in the trailer, but maybe haven't checked hard enough) than that's of course even more demanding than not having fogging at all.
(and i know, i know, we're talking about team kojima here, those guys just don't care about technical limitations, they ignore them ! now, don't ruin my troll feeding, please
)
eso76
Member
SolidSnakex said:What?
That's your idea of marginally better?
yup.
his hair is basically the same as this gen, only with a few more quiffs, which are just a few polys with hi res textures of hair on transparent background, it's not individually rendered hairs.
you guys would believe anything
SolidSnakex
Member
eso76 said:
Show me hair from the current gen that's comparable then. You make it seem common so it shouldn't be too hard to find.
V
Vennt
Unconfirmed Member
don't ruin my troll feeding, please
Why not?
What does troll-baiting do other than cause more flames and crap to flood the forum?
Inquiring minds want to know...
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
SolidSnakex said:
Every day I think to myself: "No way these creeps at GAF can get any geekier." Then a new Metal Gear comes along and ushers in the next gen of nerdiness.
For the record, and I'm as non-techie as you can get, Snake's hair did make me think of previous Snake hair-do's when I saw it. Mostly a lumpy, non-moving mass.
my Advice to MGS fans, dont try to convince the haters....
you will never get anywhere and this is their plan to piss you off, Ive seem some pretty stupid comments in this thread alone and I would typically say something back but Ive come to the conclusion... ME >>>>>>>>>>> THEM and what they say mean's fuck all.
you will never get anywhere and this is their plan to piss you off, Ive seem some pretty stupid comments in this thread alone and I would typically say something back but Ive come to the conclusion... ME >>>>>>>>>>> THEM and what they say mean's fuck all.
eso76
Member
SolidSnakex said:
take snakes' pics from mgs3, posted a couple pages ago.
You see snake's quiffs ? good. mgs4 is comparable, meaning it's using a similar technique, only with much, MUCH higher res textures for hairs, some shader to make them shine and with more polys to model more quiffs.
I am not saying the effect is the same, because it's obviously much more convincing, but the technique is just a generational evolution of the same principle, it's not like he has individually rendered hair or something. For God's sake, do u guys have an idea what 60k vertices means ??
Definitions of vertices on the Web:
Plural of vertex.
www.edmath.org/MATtours/ellipses/ellipses2.01.0.html
Vertices are the intersecting points of lines. Commonly, in GLIS data sets, these points define either unique locations which represent end points of a line feature, or corners of a polygon or area feature.
edcsgs9.cr.usgs.gov/glis/hyper/glossary/u_z
The points where two line segments come together (corners).
www.mdk12.org/mspp/vsc/mathematics/bygrade/glossary.shtml
Intersecting points of lines
www.yenra.com/glossary/v.html
a point used in construction, forms and is a corner
campus.champlain.edu/faculty/demarle/351_01.htm
The node where two edges meet.
www.cs.usask.ca/resources/tutorials/csconcepts/1998_3/IDS/glossary.html
OF A POLYGON point (s) where two sides of a polygon meet
www.kent.k12.wa.us/KSD/MK/wasl/math/mathvocabulary.htm
In geometry, a vertex (Latin: whirl, whirlpool; plural vertices) is a corner of a polygon (where two sides meet) or of a polyhedron (where three or more faces and an equal number of edges meet).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertices
Plural of vertex.
www.edmath.org/MATtours/ellipses/ellipses2.01.0.html
Vertices are the intersecting points of lines. Commonly, in GLIS data sets, these points define either unique locations which represent end points of a line feature, or corners of a polygon or area feature.
edcsgs9.cr.usgs.gov/glis/hyper/glossary/u_z
The points where two line segments come together (corners).
www.mdk12.org/mspp/vsc/mathematics/bygrade/glossary.shtml
Intersecting points of lines
www.yenra.com/glossary/v.html
a point used in construction, forms and is a corner
campus.champlain.edu/faculty/demarle/351_01.htm
The node where two edges meet.
www.cs.usask.ca/resources/tutorials/csconcepts/1998_3/IDS/glossary.html
OF A POLYGON point (s) where two sides of a polygon meet
www.kent.k12.wa.us/KSD/MK/wasl/math/mathvocabulary.htm
In geometry, a vertex (Latin: whirl, whirlpool; plural vertices) is a corner of a polygon (where two sides meet) or of a polyhedron (where three or more faces and an equal number of edges meet).
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertices
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
SolidSnakex said:
Just add a few more poly planes with high res alphas on them, and you get killer results for cheap. Konami artists and tech guys are smart, they wouldnt spend 20,000 polys on the hair and mustache when they could use them elsewhere.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
eso76 said:
You see, this is obvious even w/o the technical language. One can plainly see this. Again, to qualify, this doesn't mean it looks bad by any stretch, just that when I first saw it my initial reaction was "Same kinda hair". *Shrug*
HomerSimpson-Man
Member
Doc Holliday said:
Just add a few more poly planes with high res alphas on them, and you get killer results for cheap. Konami artists and tech guys are smart, they wouldnt spend 20,000 polys on the hair and mustache when they could use them elsewhere.
That's pretty good hair for this gen, but still the difference is quite huge looking at MGS4 closer, the amount of super thin strain detail is beyond most anything else being done, most hair is done in a clump look, take the fighting games for example, games reserved for the most detailed character models but they don't even go for that a detailed look. Case in point the DoA4 shot, but movement has gotten better though.
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