Tieno
Member
But what if I like it and the the critical drinker calls it woke? Am I then....woke...myself? Where do I belong then in this world? How do I identify myself then? As a non-binary woke? Quantum woke?
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AJUMP23
Member
It is possible to like something and not agree with it.
GymWolf
Member
Don't go beyond the soul society saga if you don't wanna lose your sight entirely.
RAÏSanÏa
Member
For those that are mostly into sharing and talking about reviewers opinions a separate spoiler OT for their general discussion -for the people that want to share and discuss reviewers opinions- might be better rather than mixing those in with the threads of those who want to discuss the shows after watching them.
There's quite a difference on informed opinion. One is given their opinion from a third party regarding the show and the other makes their own. The people that want to discuss the show in the respective OT want to discuss the show after watching and aren't looking to engage with a reviewers opinion of the show.
Alex11
Member
Yeah, I have no problem with that at all, in fact directors often say that they need to change certain aspects to better make the transition from book to movie.
But I was also referring to the Jackson trilogy, because they`re already movies they should not deviate heavily from them, wouldn`t you agree? I mean, sure there could be small differences, but nothing to major, or altering key event or characters.
Nevertheless, I`m very excited for the show, I`m very curious about the music in it, in the og trilogy the music for me was something heavenly, it was so unique, I mean, it just transported me in that world.
Soundtrack is out on all streaming services. Title track by Howard Shore.
All in all it's not McCreary's best work in any way. It's good, competent, epic and big, but lacks the heart and emotion og Shore's work.
Alex11
Member
Thanks, I listened to it, yeah it doesn't compare to og trilogy, but it`s decent.
Artoris
Gold Member
I think she was the most average character in the film
NecrosaroIII
Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
That's mentioned in the appendices. If they had Silmarillion rights, they'd probably show Morgoth standing next to the trees as she feasts on their lighting, poisoning them
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
Personally, I disagree with this. If you're using the setting and characters, but then go ahead and make a new story, then it's not a faithful adaption and is just fan fiction.
sol_bad
Member
The MCU is fan fiction then.
If there were 20 different iterations of LOTR over the decades by numerous writers , then you would have a point. But LOTR and the Silmarillion/HoME content is from a singular vision of one man and to some extent his son. A VERY different story than most comic worlds.
This is undeniable.
In time though, I suspect there will be so many iterations of Tolkien's work that, like Shakespeare, he transcends accuracy and moves into a bedrock of the culture. Can't wait for the hip-hop version of the Hobbit or the "Brutal Legend"-esque metal interp of LOTR!
balls of snow
Member
This will be a weekly thing right. Interested to see the discourse week to week with HotD.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
No. Not even comparable.
The characters of the MCU were created by people, such as Stan Lee for example, as products for Marvel to sell comics. Stan Lee came up with some ideas and Marvel top brass signed them off, but Stan Lee never owned the characters. They were property of Marvel Comics to do with as they pleased, and over the years multiple different writers have created stories for these characters.
As long as Marvel (and by an extension Disney) agree with the a writers ideas for a comic/film, then it gets the green light. It's not fan fiction because these characters have always been owned by a company as products.
Now let's look at Middle-earth. Tolkien never created his world to be a product for a company. These were his personal creations and his lifelong passion project. A true work of art inspired by his love of Germanic/Northern European mythology, legend history and language.
Tolkien did sell the film rights, but was very clear that any adaptation needed to be as accurate to his works. Tolkien once received a script for a adaptation of Lord of the Rings, but was deeply unhappy with how inaccurate the script was to his original work (see letter 210). This adaptation was never made because Tolkien rejected it. The letter was brutal and even the smallest changes (Théoden having an audience in a private chamber for example) was criticised and rejected by Tolkien for not being true to the world he crafted.
This Amazon series is fan fiction because it's not based on a novel that Tolkien wrote. It doesn't understand the themes he wove into his writings. It doesn't understand the world at all. It's cosplay. Fan fiction. A cheap imitation of Tolkien. The writers have arrogantly said they want to create the story Tolkien never wrote, but at the same time they disrespect the source material and the intentions of the artist.
nightmare-slain
Member
I'm watching the LOTR extended trilogy in preperation for this show. I know they aren't really related but I was due a rewatch of the movies anyway so why not?
I'm excited for Rings of Power and I hope it is good but I simply can't see it being on the same level as these movies. I'm not setting high expectations or getting my hopes up. It's a really high bar the movies have set and if some people are expecting the show to top them or have it in their head that it will never touch them then they are going to be disappointed. All I want is a good show that does the world of Middle Earth and JRR Tolkien justice.
I'm excited for Rings of Power and I hope it is good but I simply can't see it being on the same level as these movies. I'm not setting high expectations or getting my hopes up. It's a really high bar the movies have set and if some people are expecting the show to top them or have it in their head that it will never touch them then they are going to be disappointed. All I want is a good show that does the world of Middle Earth and JRR Tolkien justice.
STARSBarry
Gold Member
Amazon insiders say its $1 billion 'Lord of the Rings' series will determine the company's streaming future: 'If we can't make it successful, why is Amazon Studios even here?'
Amazon Studios has its first big, global tentpole series. Company insiders say its success — or failure — could determine future projects for the streamer and across Hollywood.
www.businessinsider.com
Looks like this has a lot more riding on it than just the LOTR brand.
“The reason why it’s going to succeed is because the executives at Amazon need it to succeed,” the source said. “If it doesn’t succeed, there’s going to be a big question from Andy Jassy and the board. If we can’t take this piece of IP and make it successful, why is Amazon Studios even here? It has to succeed. There’s no option.”
Looks like the studios existence is banking on the reactions from the audience.
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SirKicksalot
Member
What's the hook of this show? What is it actually about? I don't think they got this across to the general audience.
Fellowship of The Ring and An Unexpected Journey were sold as "dudes leave home to do X, have adventures in a cool fantasy world".
Once this was established, the sequels sold themselves as The Next Chapter and More Adventures. I have no idea how to pitch The Two Towers as a standalone to put asses in seats. It's riding on the first movie's context.
It feels like Amazon skipped the first part and are marketing MORE LOTR and people are like "but what is it about and who the fuck are these people?"
On the other hand the price of admission is much lower for a TV show so it may not matter too much.
On a related note, we just had The Matrix completely fucking tanking new takes on classic characters and the new Elrond, Galadriel and even Isildur seem to go down the same road. Is Weaving about to be established as irreplaceable in two major franchises?
Fellowship of The Ring and An Unexpected Journey were sold as "dudes leave home to do X, have adventures in a cool fantasy world".
Once this was established, the sequels sold themselves as The Next Chapter and More Adventures. I have no idea how to pitch The Two Towers as a standalone to put asses in seats. It's riding on the first movie's context.
It feels like Amazon skipped the first part and are marketing MORE LOTR and people are like "but what is it about and who the fuck are these people?"
On the other hand the price of admission is much lower for a TV show so it may not matter too much.
On a related note, we just had The Matrix completely fucking tanking new takes on classic characters and the new Elrond, Galadriel and even Isildur seem to go down the same road. Is Weaving about to be established as irreplaceable in two major franchises?
ManaByte
Member
Even if they wanted him back he wouldn't do it. He's done with big franchises. That's why they had to CGI him and get a soundalike in the last two Avengers movies.
darrylgorn
Member
Yes, it's just more LOTR and that's as far as most people care to think about it.
Oberstein
Member
First of all, I completely understand your point of view. But the era was not the same. Nowadays, the gender and race of the characters are reversed, the chronology is lengthened, etc. Tolkien is also an Englishman of his time, between two centuries. He would obviously never have accepted everything that happens today, and not only for his work. Worse, some people would call Tolkien a "bigot" (*cough* Resetera).
The difference is that Rings of Power takes place in a period where there is a great need to fill in the gaps. Unlike LoTR where the scenes were literally copied from the books.
Today, PJ's trilogy is revered, but I remember very well the time before Fellowship came out, a lot of people thought it was going to be crap, long before Twitter. Then, purists criticized Legolas for surfing on stairs, the Lothrian elves at Helm's Deep, the marshmallowy ending that replaced Tolkien's fears of industrialization, etc. But now the streaming platforms are doing so much crap that everything done before 2005/2010 seems to be perfect in comparison.
Of course it's a fan-fiction, Tolkien is dead and we're not going to see philologists and linguists writing such complex fantasy like him. You have to take the series as it is... up to a certain point, that we'll see when it comes out. Not to mention the amount of money spent on a series becomes absolutely ridiculous.
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sol_bad
Member
That doesn't matter, Tolkien is not in charge of Middle Earth anymore. It is now the estates property to do with as they please. An "adaptation" doesn't have to contain the actual stories created by Tolkien if the estate so pleases and approves.
I didn't see people screaming heracy and fan fiction with the recent LOTR games. Weird.
MastaKiiLA
Member
They were insanely boring. Also, the characters were mostly forgettable except for Bilbo and Paul Oakenfold. Smaug ended on a cliffhanger, and that cliffhanger isn't even paid off with the 3rd movie, because Smaug gets offed at the start. There's a strong argument to be made that the insane runtime and sloppy story telling make The Hobbit movies legitimately bad. Not the worst things ever, but they're bad films with a really nice paintjob.
darrylgorn
Member
I started watching the hobbit films again with 60fps frame interpolation and really enjoyed them.
Yeah it's very weird. It's very selective.
It's also not very important in my opinion, if you want, you can also just ignore all and any additional adaptions of the source material.
I also found the Paprika discourse last week very weird. The anime was already an adaption of the source material.
Sexy Shelob goes a long way
And all I remember from the discussion of those games was the fanfic quality of the story. But there have been other Middle Earth games with various levels of accuracy to the source material.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
That's because Tolkien has been dead for many years. However, even after his death his son tried his best to respect his father's work. Christopher was very critical of all adaptions because they were disrespectful to his father's work.
Tolkien didn't spend his life creating a personal work of art for it to be desecrated by American corporation looking to boost its streaming numbers. A corporation that clearly doesn't understand Tolkien's ideas and just wants to create an action fantasy series that appeals to a modern international audience.
Personally, I think the works of deceased artists should be respected, especially when it's such a personal work of art that a man spent a majority of his adult life crafting. If you think because he's dead then the estate can do what they with his work then that's your opinion. I hope you really enjoy this show.
Just don't call it a Tolkien adaption. It's so far from Tolkien's ideas and vision that calling it adaptation is insulting to Tolkien and his legacy.
Edit:
Missed the game bit.
Shadow of War and Mordor were fun games, but the stories were laughably bad and yeah, they were pure fan fiction because the writers again didn't understand the universe. Orcs using magic to summon a Balrog? Shelob is now a sexy woman? A new ring of power? Lol. Fucking awful.
Good enough?
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ManaByte
Member
I brought this up before and the crusaders against the series said it was all BS.
ManaByte
Member
They're only about 25% bad. All the studio interference stuff (extending it to three movies, forcing an Aragorn-Arwen copy romance, etc) is what's terrible. Jackson's stuff is only about 5% bad, with that 5% being the ABSOLUTE STUPIDITY of the Witch King of Agmar HAVING A GRAVE. The guy TURNED INTO A WRAITH. There was NO CORPSE, but Jackson not only set a scene at his grave but showed a flashback of his body being buried. It makes me want to throw my TV out the window whenever I watch the movies.
The cast is just as perfect as LOTR. Bilbo and the Dwarves are great.
theclaw135
Banned
Amazon insiders say its $1 billion 'Lord of the Rings' series will determine the company's streaming future: 'If we can't make it successful, why is Amazon Studios even here?'
Amazon Studios has its first big, global tentpole series. Company insiders say its success — or failure — could determine future projects for the streamer and across Hollywood.
Looks like this has a lot more riding on it than just the LOTR brand.
“The reason why it’s going to succeed is because the executives at Amazon need it to succeed,” the source said. “If it doesn’t succeed, there’s going to be a big question from Andy Jassy and the board. If we can’t take this piece of IP and make it successful, why is Amazon Studios even here? It has to succeed. There’s no option.”
Looks like the studios existence is banking on the reactions from the audience.
I'm going to praise it to kingdom come, just to spite the negativity.
Konnor
Member
At least get a job at amazon. they'll need the astroturfers.
IDKFA
I am Become Bilbo Baggins
What do you mean by updated? Do you mean classic works of fiction getting updated to appeal to whatever the modern sensibilities are at the time? If so that sounds like a dystopian nightmare, but I doubt anything like that would ever happen.
It already has. Mark Twain has stuff edited in his works being sold today.
It's always been the case, lots of stories got tweaked, shortened, or whatever back in the day for different editoons.or formats.
But if you like the way something is NOW, get a hard copy.
For stuff like dictionaries and encyclopedias, it's absolutely CRITICAL.
TaylorSwiftFan
Member
I
It’s already been said before - this is pure BS as I was on the internet during the day. It’s been demonstrated that the vast majority could see that the movies would be good. Not the same at all.
Trazyn the Infinite
Member
Seriously, who is paying you?
Yes, we answered and dismissed him, but he can't accept it.
There will always be people who don't like something and can't accept change. You can never escape that.
But to suggest the vitriol against RoP is anything like what it was like back then is completely off the mark.
The hype surrounding the movies was huge, and it's probably not something we'll ever see again. Those days are over.
FunkMiller
Member
This is the main reason I fear this show is going to suck. They don’t have anything strong character or story-wise to hook a marketing campaign around.
One thing I’ve very much learned over the years is that the best and most successful products and entertainment are the ones that you can sum up with a strong central message.
This show does not have that, which suggests the narrative is very unfocused.
FunkMiller
Member
As above… I don’t think it’s the fault of the people in the Amazon Studios marketing team. It’s the project itself that seems to be the problem... and the way those responsible for it want it to be pushed to the public. The higher ups are the issue.
Goalus
Member
That's interesting.
I wonder how much of the fact that every single trailer piece they put out gets instantly ratioed will translate into actual reality in the form of (non-)viewers.
I also think that it is not a huge problem that they are inventing new stories within Tolkien's universe. I think that would actually be appreciated by fans if done in a faithful manner. The main problem is their pandering to the woke. The creators made that very clear that this is their main objective, and they are getting what they deserve now.
Tams
Member
I predict there will be some shitty 'stronk wimen' jokes and none of the appeal of the film Gimli, or even The Hobbit dwarves.
Vaelka
Member
I meant if the marketing isn't an accurate reflection of the show itself.
I kinda feel that about the House of Dragons show at least the two first episodes ( who knows, might go downhill after that ).
The show is actually legit pretty good so far and way more nuanced and less on the nose than the marketing would have you believe.
The marketing basically hyperfocused on very particular things that don't really feel as forced or weird in the show when watching it, but the marketing made it sound like it'd be really obnoxious.
House of Dragons has WAAAAYYYY more "useful" material to base a show on, GRRM adds a lot of character flavor and dialogue they have been incorporating, not to mention he is directly involved in some capacity. I'm still unsure of which ACTUAL TEXTS RoP can directly use but there is no way it is in anywhere near the detail the HotD story has with 200 pages in Fire&Blood and the parts from WoI&F that are very focused and written from a storytelling perspective. The LOTR appendices are half just a geneology list and half a very dry recounting of events, not much to base character and dialogue on.
I'm pretty optimistic about HotD, though they are getting EVENTS correct but are tweaking the reasons behind the events, mostly to serve their "why can't women rule" narrative that I'm not sure how they will play it out if they continue to hew closely to the text.
RoP is either so sweeping, so grand, and sooooooo majestic that it simply can't be contained in a plot centric trailer or the first season is literally all build-up with no strong plot. Otherwise I don't know why they couldn't put Galadriel front and center opposite Sauron in some fashion with Numenor or Eriador in the balance or whatever they are doing. This series of trailer showing random folks turning to look at the camera isn't really selling the show (to me) and if -I- can't be sure what is going on, who have read these books multiple times, you can bet the average viewer will have no clue when and where this show is taking place (which may be by design, they hope folks think this is just a retelling of LOTR?).
NecrosaroIII
Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
I think they have about 3 pages of material. 1 page summary, plus a timeline. There is also little miscellaneous details about Numenor in the main body of the lotr text.
They should have at least gotten Lost Tales of Middle Earth. There is a decent amount of details in a short story there 2nd age stuff. But honestly, 2nd Age is Tolkien's thinnest work
FunkMiller
Member
Is it even possible to construct a convincing story based on a bunch of appendices?
What the hell is it going to be about? It’s been more than a minute since I read all the backstory stuff around Lord Of The Rings.
What‘s the story going to even be? Can’t be about defeating Sauron obviously, and Morgoth is already dead.
What compelling story is there from Tolkien’s admin work that can carry a tv series? They can’t even use The Silmarillion!
I’m convinced that’s why they haven’t done a good job selling the story… because there isn’t much of one to sell.
NecrosaroIII
Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
There is a ton of stuff they could do if they keep it centered on Numenor. Play up their colonial exploits. Play up the drama of the elves midlife crisis (the angst they face as they observe the numenoreans rising to power and their own time diminishing).
Almost all the characters are going to have be created from scratch, as will be their dialogue. There are only hints of motivations and personalities in the texts. But there is a decent amount of framework they can draft something out of if they use it as an outline.